Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Pointing Labs: what ever happened to them?

I think labradoodles are great! The distinction is that nobody is trying to register them as labs. Not so with the designer colors and "pointing" labs.

Here in Colorado seems to be the center of a lot of PL activity.
Been around a few, seen a few run hunt tests. If you primarily hunt upland they can do work. But the multiple grand master PL titled dogs struggle with master level hunt test work. They are over priced IMO. $1,500 for a grand master titled dog breeding. That struggled to earn a AKC Master title is ridiculous. You can get a Field Champion breeding for less than that.

That is an interesting article and makes a case for the introduction of the Weims to get Silver. But even the author is only speculating that crossing is what happened to the PL. The PL looks exactly like any other lab and does not have the dd gene of the Silvers. Maybe someday they will find a PL gene that seperates the PL, but until then (and after having one for 10 years and hunting with many non-PLs)I think that they are just breeding for the tendancy. I think that it is no different than breeding for a long ranging pointer, for instance. Eventually, a good breeder is going to be known for having only pointers that are well suited to hunting from horseback.

What would you do if you were a serious GSP owner and you got a pup that wouldn't point? What if there were a group of breeders that were breeding GSP's for running rabbits and registering them as GSP's? Do you think that would be good for the breed? The answer, of course, is that breeding away from breed standards is a great way to destroy a breed. This is exactly what PL breeders are doing. If they had to be separately registered, I couldn't see a single thing wrong with it.

But they do meet the standard in every way. They just do something extra. Would we being destroying the GSP breed if we selected GSPs that also retrieved consistantly?

"The Labrador when on game, either by air or ground scent, will become more excited or animated. As it nears game it may drop its head somewhat to better find or locate the bird, but will continue to move forward. Most Labradors will naturally flush in a bold to moderate manner, their desire to find and retrieve continuously driving them toward the bird in an attempt to either catch or flush to wing. Anything less would be unacceptable and should be scored accordingly, as the Spaniel Hunting test is intended to demonstrate the traits and values of a flushing dog." (AKC Hunt Test standards for Labrador Retrievers)

Labs are flushing dogs and breeding them to "point" is a deviation from the standard. The problem comes in when both "pointing" labs and real labs are registered in the same registry. This creates a polluted gene pool, wherein the true labs may eventually end up with characteristics that are not desirable to a traditional lab owner. No problem at all if they are registered separately. Retrieving is a generally accepted trait in the GSP breed, just happens that it is often not a terribly strong characteristic. Nobody would ever say that they are unhappy with their GSP because it retrieves well, not so with a lab that points.

Ranger1 gets it.

I bought a 'pointing' lab out of the kellogg line back in the late 90's. Absolutely the dumbest lab I every owned or was associated with. His outstanding traits were marking vehicle tires and getting bit by rattlesnakes. I also owned a GSP that hunted close as a brittany and would return immediately to a whistle. I mourn the loss of Danny the GSP to this day. He passed way too soon.

I don't think that this discussion is going anywhere. I did like the article about the Silvers, but like I said I do not think that the PL is in the same category.

Ranger1 you are quoting a Test Standard. So every lab that cannot meet this should not be a lab? The bench crowd might differ.

Here is the Breed Standard - http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm

PLs qualify, Silvers do not.

Also, ever meet a PL that never had it's pointing instinct developed in training. I have and its called a flusher.

Never seen a good pointing dog that needed its pointing instinct "developed". They either point or they don't, the training takes place from there. The Hunt Test standard is a pretty good measure of what a lab is supposed to be able to do. Breeding them to run lions would be no less of a deviation than is breeding them to point and then registering them with the dogs that do the traditional lab job of a flushing retriever. The bench crowd is what ruined the Irish Setter by breeding them without regard for their ability to be pointing dogs, much the same as the backyard breeder has destroyed most lines of Golden Retrievers.

I certainly see the appeal of a dog that is a lab in every other way- I don't begrudge the PL lab guys that- but Ranger1 is absolutely correct- even if he is only looking at half the coin. It would have been in the PL lab guys best interest to found there own registry years ago, and deny dual registered dogs eventually, and only allow entry by AKC registered labs after attaining a certain level of pointing lab title. they already have there own breed standard with there own hunt test. by excluding AKC dogs that haven't reached GMPR they keep there own gene pool tight as well.


finding a good yellow stud that isn't an EIC carrier, doesn't have any Lean Mac, and doesn't have any titled pointers in his pedigree isn't so easy anymore. Really want to get a litter off FC/AFC Fat city Pacer- even though he's black- or another one of Rebel With a Cause better sons.

Actually, there are a ton of labs which have a tendency to point and only need some encouragement to become solid pointers.

My only yellow dog was that way. I told about it to one of my dad's friends who spent a lifetime field trialing english pointers. He vociferously proclaimed that there was "no such thing" as a pointing lab.
I invited him to hunt over Peet, and at the end of the mornings hunt he allowed that there was at least one pointing lab...

Here is a pic of my 13 MO pointing lab Dolly and a rooster she pointed beautifully on our hunt yesterday. Kinda nice to walk up on a point, kick up a bird, and whack it with a 28 ga.

Agreed.

This quote proves that he in fact does NOT get it. Or, at the very least is contradictory.
The GSP is simply an Americanized Deutsch Kurzhaar.
DK's are bred to be VERSATILE...including rabbits.
So, if the Americans are breeding away from this breed standard by trying to breed only bird dogs...are they destroying the breed?

In my opinion, they have created there own distinct breed, just like the difference between the DD and the GWP. This is in NO way a "knock" against GSP's or GWP's.
But, if you wanted to buy one or the other, AND your goal was to have a dog that would:
Hunt and point upland,
Retrieve land and water
Track rabbits,
Blood track
Be sharp on predators
Retrieve fur
And bay hogs...
Would your chances be better with an American version GSP/GWP or a DD/DK where it's parentage had to prove these traits?
I think the answer is obvious.
It's hard to say that without sounding like I'm talking down the GSP/GWP but I'm honestly not.
I'm just using it as an example that the above quote/example was WAAAY off base and in fact...he does not get it.

And, although I agree that breeding for ANY color, with color being solely the purpose,
Is irresponsible breeding, the supplied link reads like one man's opinion with very little reference.

The fact that some labs point while some don't is simple. Some carry and manifest the pointer genes introduced when the St. John's Water Dog (what became the Lab as we know it), started.
These are old articles that I can't find online, so I'll do my best with pics.

Written by Dr. Gerald L. Walker Ph. D., C.P.A.S.









Hopefully, this will shed some light on the real history of the Labrador and not just what the AKC tells you it should do.

ranger1 has said all that really needs to be said. His post are spot on with this subject.

At least you're not narrow minded.
Because he said it, or because AKC says it, doesn't change the facts of history.

I just re-read every post of his and it's all his opinion...not facts.



Again...breeding away from breed standard.
A GSP that won't retrieve ain't much of a dog. Sorry.

The one and only thing I can see accurate in his posts is where he lays the blame for other breeds failures... The show ring. But, that blame falls squarely in the AKC's lap for not requiring breed specimens to be versed in both field and show.
The SAME AKC that he/people like to defend when it comes to standards.

So who dilutes the lab genes more? The (hypothetical) responsible PL breeders who are breeding on all factors involved, thus producing good looking, healthy, good natured hunting dogs?

Or, the AKC show breeders breeding for looks and health? And then we end up with these pigs we see at Westminster.

I really don't have a dog (pun) in this fight, I just hate seeing people spew their opinion as fact because..."I heard", or..."someone said".
I've done my research and know my history.

It is a fact that a lab Does Not naturally possess the natural instinct or ability to point. That is something that is a learned behavior.

I don't own a lab so no dog in the fight either.

I am not defending the AKC.

Personally if one wants to own a pointing lab that is on them. It just doesn't make any sense to me, so I will pass.

Not a fact!
Can you read? I posted their original breed make up!
How can a breed that originally used pointers and setters...


A learned behavior???
Yes. You can teach a dog to point.
But, you can tell the difference between learned and instinctual in less than a second.

Soooooo, pointing labs that only flush...
Is THAT a learned behavior? No.

Is a Labrador Retriever a flushing dog or a pointing dog?