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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Kodiakisland
Well, if I was you I'd just stick to the herbal remedies. They were just fine for our ancestors.
I sense some false unstated premises in your response, and I notice that you didn't actually respond to what I said in my post above.


It's hard to respond to those who know nothing about what they speak of.


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Everyone wants free market healthcare. Wait till they see the pricetag the free market puts on saving your life.


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I am one of the guilty parties. I have set pricing, negotiated managed care contracts and dealt with supplies within the hospital setting for 20 years. Without getting into a large amount of detail, charges are a product of managed care and mean nothing. Insurers want high charges so they can create more "value" through added perceived savings. The increased charges are also creating a need for insurance. Providers have fallen into the game.

Unfortunately, healthcare has become a unique market where consumers don't pay for their consumption. Most of insurance is paid by employers. Most of the cost of service is paid by insurance and the hospital pays for the products ordered and used by the physicians. Despite what many believe, most physicians are independent of the hospital and hospitals cannot compensate physicians for referrals or utilization patterns.

Healthcare needs to change, but the solution is not with insurance, buy accountability.

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Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Hospitals have been used as an instrument of redistribution of wealth. Hate the government for this.

Having said that, I have run my own healthcare facility for decades. The whole works. I have run it for a fraction of the national average. Dental care, for the most part during my life has been far closer to a free market than hospital care and the cost, in real dollars reflects that fact.

When I go into hospitals, I see monumental waste and I know what I am looking at. IMO the reason is not so different than government, the accountability has been obfuscated by second and third party payers. Which docs know what something costs? None. Which patients ask? Few. Why, because insurance or the govt or someone else pays for it. Then there are the tort drivers that drive up the costs because of CYA medicine and insurance. There are many reasons.

If you doubt that the market place can positively impact health care look at the cost of complex surgical cosmetic procedures. They are competitive to say the least. Why? Insurance does not cover them.

Govt out, tort reforms, and real market based reforms (patients need an incentive to ask, how much?) are the answers. IMO.
Hear hear.

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The system is broken in multiple ways. Government interference and low reimbursement rates drive hopitals to attempt to make the difference from non-government patients. Lack of competition makes hospitals bloated and inefficient. The third party payment system discourages patients from shopping around and factoring costs into treatment decisions (especially in the case of elderly medicare patients). Finally, technology and innovation have driven the demand for the newest and greatest diagnostic and treatment tools but at very high cost. Health care in this country reminds me of the the F-22 airplane -- a technological marvel unmatched anywhere else but so expensive and complex we can't afford to fly them.

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Originally Posted by NathanL
Everyone wants free market healthcare. Wait till they see the pricetag the free market puts on saving your life.
I'm sorry, but what you're implying (i.e., that free markets result in higher prices than centrally planned markets) has been proven false countless times. Introduce competition and prices must drop to whatever level causes the most efficient distribution of resources.

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ah, such theory. This is HEALTH care, which is going to affect how you feel or even if you live. It isn't an inconvenience to wait in most cases, it is suffering and even death.

People will pay the price, whatever it is. There isn't going to be any competitive market, in most cases there is only one source or a limited subset that doesn't fill the need. Just ask people waiting to get a heart or kidney dialysis or any of a hundred life threatening conditions.

Unless you think people with 10 years of training are going to start doing surgery. You are welcome to go to them, because if you do, it can only improve the gene pool.


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Originally Posted by JBGQUICK
ah, such theory. This is HEALTH care, which is going to affect how you feel or even if you live. It isn't an inconvenience to wait in most cases, it is suffering and even death.

People will pay the price, whatever it is. There isn't going to be any competitive market, in most cases there is only one source or a limited subset that doesn't fill the need. Just ask people waiting to get a heart or kidney dialysis or any of a hundred life threatening conditions.

Unless you think people with 10 years of training are going to start doing surgery. You are welcome to go to them, because if you do, it can only improve the gene pool.

Wow! An honest to goodness communist.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by NathanL
Everyone wants free market healthcare. Wait till they see the pricetag the free market puts on saving your life.
I'm sorry, but what you're implying (i.e., that free markets result in higher prices than centrally planned markets) has been proven false countless times. Introduce competition and prices must drop to whatever level causes the most efficient distribution of resources.


When hit with the hard fact in their face of this will save your life but it cost XXXXX people will always pay whatever it takes.

Couldn't pay me enough to save some people.


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Ha ha! What a child.

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I had an ex-girlfriend who did payroll for many hospitals, doctors, and clinics. The doctors monthly bonus (Not wage.)at clinics was greater than the average yearly salary of individuals in the county. I also have plenty of friends who work in the hospitals who make $80,000.00 plus, far from store clerk wages.

But if I'm full of it then you should become a retail clerk.


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$60 for a warmed blanket over her while she waited for attention. And she didn't even get to keep the blanket, which probably cost $12.....

One of my renters had a problem with their premature twins, delivered by Caesarian. The first week's bill was over 1 million.. which of course they never had to pay. But someone did.


The only true cost of having a dog is its death.

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Originally Posted by Mathsr
The hospital is probably going to accept the $20,000 as payment, claim the balance of $69,000 as noncollectable, all the while making probably close to $15,000, and knowing the guy got bit by a rat snake. grin


+1. My experience, +35 years in healthcare. So the guy ends up having to pay $5400. The hospital writes the noncollectable as a loss. The hospital still made a some. If a hospital makes too much profit it loses its nonprofit status so they use all kinds of ways to fudge the actual figures. I think it was Ronald Reagan in the eighties who passed a law forcing hospitals to treat anyone who came into an emergency room, but he did not account for anyway of paying for it, so a lot of unreimbursed healthcare is related to emergency rooms which is passed on to other patients with insurance.

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Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by Mathsr
The hospital is probably going to accept the $20,000 as payment, claim the balance of $69,000 as noncollectable, all the while making probably close to $15,000, and knowing the guy got bit by a rat snake. grin
And you and any other patient with money is going to pay the balance.


No. You forget how many illegals and Dimocraps walk and never pay a dime after being in critical care 2 days to two months.


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Quote
a lot of unreimbursed healthcare is related to emergency rooms which is passed on to other patients with insurance.



According to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, 55% of U.S. emergency care now goes uncompensated.

The amount of uncompensated care delivered by nonfederal community hospitals grew from $6.1 billion in 1983 to $40.7 billion in 2004

When medical bills go unpaid, health care providers must either shift the costs onto those who can pay or go uncompensated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act


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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
So, thinking of alternatives . . . what did our forefathers do back in the 19th Century when they were bit by Copperheads or Rattlers?


They died. shocked


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Originally Posted by Kodiakisland
Originally Posted by seal_billy
Originally Posted by Kodiakisland
I'd love to know your qualifications for knowing one single thing about health care. I have over 20 years experience in it. Post yours up. Would certainly like to know.


Nobody needs healthcare experience to know they're getting it up the tail. All one needs to see is the lifestyle of those in the healthcare industry and its easy to understand. Everybody in the industry make a very good living off a flippin ransom from unfortunate situations. It is complete horseshit. Its like getting abill for 600 bucks from some azzhole declaring your father dead when you saw with your own eyes he was dead when they hauled him out with a sheet over his head. That happened to my best friend. Broken system because of greed. PERIOD!


Who are these rich people you speak of? Really? Go down to your local hospital and find one. All the hospitals I've worked for barely met budget. As a pharmacist, I make less working for a hospital than I would a retail store.

People bitch and complain about freeloaders in our society, but when it comes to healthcare they want to be one themselves.


Yea, the don't bitch about paying a lawyer with 3 years of professional schooling $800/ hour, but to pay a dr a hundred bucks for 20 min for something that should be free?


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Originally Posted by vabeachman
Originally Posted by Mathsr
The hospital is probably going to accept the $20,000 as payment, claim the balance of $69,000 as noncollectable, all the while making probably close to $15,000, and knowing the guy got bit by a rat snake. grin


+1. My experience, +35 years in healthcare. So the guy ends up having to pay $5400. The hospital writes the noncollectable as a loss. The hospital still made a some. If a hospital makes too much profit it loses its nonprofit status so they use all kinds of ways to fudge the actual figures. I think it was Ronald Reagan in the eighties who passed a law forcing hospitals to treat anyone who came into an emergency room, but he did not account for anyway of paying for it, so a lot of unreimbursed healthcare is related to emergency rooms which is passed on to other patients with insurance.


BINGO!!! We have a winner.

Yes the hospital may only make 1% profit but it's because they cook the books. They charge $89000 for a procedure that likely costs $10000. The insurance settles for $20000. In actuality they have made $10000 but they count it as a $69000 loss. It's fairly easy to stay at 1% profit in that game and still pay million dollar salaries to all the doctors and administration. Also please don't give me all that BS about everyone it takes in the chain. Every drug store in the country manages to stock a large pharmacy and serve many times the amount of customers, many 24-7, without charging $100 for an aspirin.

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Yep, like most any other business the books are fudged. I have never worked in a hospital that the CEO was not a MBA. Of course some Doctors work in concert with the MBAs to lend credibility. Healthcare industry is worth more than my mind can imagine and there are all sort of crooks up and down the chain, from the lowest to the highest. But that being said, I think we have good healthcare in this country. I have taken care of people from around the world that have come here and have paid full price for procedures, because we are the best in the world.

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Originally Posted by vabeachman
Yep, like most any other business the books are fudged. I have never worked in a hospital that the CEO was not a MBA. Of course some Doctors work in concert with the MBAs to lend credibility. Healthcare industry is worth more than my mind can imagine and there are all sort of crooks up and down the chain, from the lowest to the highest. But that being said, I think we have good healthcare in this country. I have taken care of people from around the world that have come here and have paid full price for procedures, because we are the best in the world.


No doubt about the quality. The only thing they did wrong was to make so much money that our government decided they needed in the game.

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