Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats .35 Brown/Whelen VS .35 Whelen AI ?

Do any of you guys run a .35 Brown/Whelen ?

If so could you give me an indication of its performance with 225gr projectiles, I have found a little bit of info but it's old and scarce. From what I see it looks to be a bit hotter than the Whelen AI

Both are a waste of time and will kill the resale of your rifle. If you want more terminal performance, go to a 9.3x62, it has a real advantage.

Don't trust anything you read on improved cartridges unless the pressure and velocity dated is contemporary.

Ackley and most other wildcatters "put their thumb on the scale" when it came to pressure and velocity.

If you have a 35 W leave it alone. It will kill anything in the lower 48 right now.

I have a very old custom that is marked .35 Apex. I can find no information on it at all... It appears to be a .35 Whelen A.I. with the shoulder moved fwd about .010". Or about halfway to a Brown/Whelen...

I have not chronographed it. But it seems to shoot well with 250 gr. bullets. Sights are receiver sights. And even with my 60 yr old eyes, I can hold 2.5" or so at the proverbial 100 yds.

I have a lot of old reloading manuals. But the velocities listed for the .35 AI and the Brown version are all so old as to be suspect. Back in the day; even the bullet manufacturers didn't have accurate pressure testing equipment.

After playing with 2; .35 Whelen Imp's; 3- .350 Mags; and at least 4 different .35 Whelens, I've come to the conclusion, that the gains are minimum. If you need more that the standard Whelen offers, it's best to just step up to the .358 Norma. The problem therin lies: Most .35 cal bullets are not meant for the velocities that the Norma produces.

And then that creates another instance: If one also owns a .375 H&H, then there is not much sense in building a .358 Norma... (Or vice/versa,for that matter...)

With the possible exception of the big bears of Ak, the standard .35 Whelen will handily take any game in N. America. (If you can shoot accurately... If you can't; no monster magnum is going to offer you anything at all...)

As we all know, each rifle is a law unto itself... One can expect apx 100 f.p.s. gain in an Improved case. (Give or take a bit) In the field, one would scarce notice the differece.

Or to put it another way, If you carry a std .35 Whelen, and Injun up another 20 yds closer, your impact velocity is likely about the same as a Imp case. IMHO, the modest gains are just not worth it.

That said, however; If it takes the Brown/Whelen to scratch your personal itch, than you'd best go for it... Or you'll never be happy any other way.

Go ahead and punch your rifle looney card if you must...

Just idle thoughts from a mostly idle mind...

GH

Just out of curiosity, what will the 35W not kill "right now" in #'s 49 and 50?

I have both a 35 Whelen and .35 Whelen AI. Both are fine cartridges but loaded to equal pressures there is very little gain to be had from the AI version. And, depending on the rifle, you may lose magazine capacity due to the increaed shoulder diameter. you may also experience feeding difficulty. The feeding can be sorted out but it can be an issue to be contended with and is often overlooked by those wanting to AI an existing rifle.

I agree to stick with the std Whelen or go 9,3x62. I have all three and for max performance would pick the 9,3x62. I like the two Whelens I have because one is all weather the other open sights only.

Of course, if you HAVE to have an AI, I'd opt for the 40� version as dies are typically less, fireforming much easier, and it is more common which would help resale if that is a consideration.

My 40� Ai was just as accurate when fireforming as it was with fireformed cases. I simply fired my standard 35 Whelen load in teh AI chamber and presto, Fireformed cases and sub MOA groups all at the same time.

I re-chambered a 35 Whelen to Brown-Whelen for a customer about thirty five years ago. Prior to re-chambering, he was getting about 2535 fps with 250's. After the re-chamber, he was getting 2580 with the same bullets. His main reason for doing it was that he had found some dies cheap. The rifle was a nice rifle as a Whelen and it was still a nice rifle as a Brown-Whelen. Back then, I think I charged him fifty bucks for the re-chamber so a little over a buck a foot in velocity increase. GD

I used to have a 1917 Enfield in .335 B/W with an 18" barrel on it. I got 2450 out of 250 gr. bullets, and nearly lost my eyebrows from muzzle flash with each shot (I used H380). It was accurate. I loaded some 225s and got about 2600 from it, with slightly less accuracy. I'd stick with the standard whelen if you have a 'normal' length barrel.

Yes on the Brown-Whelen. Had one made up on a LH Sako about 4 years ago. Used a PacNor in #3 Dakota contour (their description), CM, 12 twist, 24".
Kind of did it on a whim-had the barrel left from a cancelled project and a buddy was getting one done up-so a quick trip to the smith while he had the reamer and gauges rented.
Dies, reamer and gauge rental available from CH4D. Ended up using Norma 35 Whelen brass fireformed. Even though the Norma brass is great, if I was doing it over, I'd buy the 30-06 basic brass (unformed 35W Remington brass I believe) and save the extra work and expense of the first fireform. Correct headstamp brass is available from Quality Cartridge I do believe. None of this is cheap or easy.
The rifle loves Partitions. RL15 with 225s and RL17 with 250s.
Not gonna give loads and velocities, but I think the B-W actually does what people think the AI should do.
I did drop from 5 in the magazine to 4 and had to do a little tweaking on the magazine box to get it to feed ok.
Only you can decide if all the trouble is worth it or not. If you are serious about building one, send me a PM with your address and I'll mail you a couple B-W dummy rounds and you can see what they look like.
Steve

I have acquired a CZ 600 ZKK that I want to re barrel to .35

My reason for wanting to do this is I have around 300 225gr Accubonds and around the same amount of 250 gr Partitions ( left overs from Buffalo culls ) that I can't use in my .358 win as they are to long. As it will be a new barrel I might as well chamber it for the hottest -06 .35 that I can, I don't want a belted cartridge or I would go .358 STA

The Brown version looked a bit interesting, cheers for the input

The only other thoughts I have for the rifle is to forget the long action .35 and sell the projectiles I have or build another .358 win with a long mag that can deal with them. And I would re chamber to an improved .30 cal such as the Gibbs or ICL Caribou, this might be more realistic and see more use

yes,is a 250 at 2550 or a 225 at 2750 somehow lacking in that north state? 9.3x62, euro trash..

Well I'm not in the US of A, I'm in Australia, the target animals for this rifle would be our 3 wild bovines Bintang, Scrub Bull, and Water Buffalo all 3 are very dangerous and will stomp and gore you and Sambar Deer would also be on the menu they are not as large as your bull Elk but are extremely strong and can take a shot very well and will run even with good placement

The .35 is great for these animals, a long action .358 with 150-200 fps over the .358 win would be good as it would be a custom job why not have a custom chamber ?

For what your use is and the intended donor rifle, I think the 35 BW would be perfect. I do believe it is the most you can get out of an 06 based 35 cal.
BTW, since you are out of the USA, scratch the offer to mail a couple dummy rounds-probably get me in hot water. If you need any more info, drop me a PM.
Steve

Re: the 9.3x62:
- Far more factory loads available especially if you are over there
- Bigger frontal area and better SD in a 286
- Proven in Africa forever
- Available in many factory rifles, far more than the 35W
- 250 gr TSX @ 2500
- 286 solid Barnes banded solid @ 2350
- Far broader bullet selection than 35s

It's sorta like why the 7x57 is superior to the 7mm08 and the 6.5x55 whups the 260 Remington.

As for Euro trash, yeah sure just like the 375 H&H is Limey trash.

As for what the 35W would not be my first choice in Alaska .... The big bears.
Feel more comfortable with my A Bolt II in 375 H&H pushing a 300gr TSX @ 2700 fps. A good Buff load is a good Bear load.

astralabs,
If you would actually read Ocean Raiders posts above, I think you would see he will have a hell of a time using those 35 cal ABs and Partitions in a 9.3 or 375.
Now go ahead and tell him that having 600 bullets on hand is not a good reason to select a particular caliber. I know myself and most others have selected calibers for reasons that made a lot less sense than this.
Steve

I can respect your stance and there's no arguing the 375 is a fantastic and popular choice. I'm aware of a guy that killed a respectable brown bear with a 35 Whelen. IIRC, he said a 225 Northfork pinned the above bear on the spot at 100 yards and he could have saved bullets 2&3.

Had he listened to some of the internet experts (that's not a shot at you) that had never hunted brown bear, he'd have been under-gunned with anything but a howitzer.

A 35 Whelen is the 'biggest' chambering I own and I don't see that changing anytime soon, if ever.

yes,is a 250 at 2550 or a 225 at 2750 somehow lacking in that north state? 9.3x62, euro trash.. [/quote]

If you are suggesting those velocities are for a .358 win I would like to know your load recipe? Sounds 200 fps faster than what I can achieve for those weights

Dat be funny right there!

Of course I'm putting together a 35W later this year.

Enjoy your 35 Ws. It will soon revert to wildcat status and all those heavyweight bullets will fade away. The 9.3x62 will keep soldiering on as it has since 1905 before there was even a 30-06 for the good Col. and/or Mr Howe to neck up.

Next time you are hunting anywhere in the world try to buy some 35 Whelen ammo after the airline has lost yours.

I had a beautiful red pad 77 35 Whelen. Nice gun, accurate but not quite a 9.3x62.

So if you want one get one but don't try and blow smoke that it is equal to a 9.3x62.

One gun for anything anywhere ? The 375 Weatherby ..... read the new Rifle magazine.

I am always amazed at how emotional someone gets when they somehow feel their pet round is being insulted. The 35 Whelen, 9.3x62 and 375 H&H can all kill the biggest bears and none of them are going to disappear anytime soon.

You guys realize that astralabs is Larry Root?

I had no idea, thanks.

Neither did astralabs...

I hope Freddy Zeglin (358 Hawk inventor) doesn't get wind of this . . .

Well MM,
I'll just make a gentleman's bet with you that the 35 BW has more case capacity that the 358 Hawk. If you compare them, I believe the shoulder is moved further forward and is a sharper angle on the BW. Be happy to mail you or Fred a fired case to compare. I would add that the velocities I achieved in 24' barrel were quite similar to what the Hawk is claiming to get.
All that being said, I kinda like the Hawk case design a little better, with it's more sloped shoulder and longer neck. Nice to have correct headstamped brass available, too.
Steve

I have a Std. Whelen and a Ackley Improved gain about 50 FPS or a little more with the AI. Had to to work with the AI to get it to feed well the sharp shoulder would hang up as it fed.

Hey Steve, you misinterpreted my comment. There is a smirk at the end.

FZ was a marketing man. This is what he claimed on his website a while back:



FZ would claim much higher velocities than the parent case due to "efficiencies" of his design. He was adamant that it wasn't due to running at higher pressures and all his load were pressure tested and safe.

My take is that the original Whelen was an answer to the shortage of magnum actions. The improved forms AI & BW were at least in part designed to eliminate the myth that the Whelen didn't have enough shoulder to head space on and the second idea was to try to turn it into a .375, which it isn't.

All of them are good cartridges but I think if I was going after the type game you are talking about I would think about greater magazine capacity before I would do anything that might affect feeding.

If I wanted to really get looney I would do a 35 x .375 Ruger AKA 35 Newton just to be different.

Trejano, I am not familiar with the .375 Ruger case is it a belted case ? Will it fit in the standard 06 action ? I have seen .35 Newton in wildcat listings before but that's all I know of it.

These Hawk wildcats mentioned further up the page were do I find more info on them ?

I don't mind playing with brass, I quite enjoy it actually so no factory loads or factory brass is of no concern to me.

Some one mentioned more mag capacity, if you can't drop a buff inside 100 yds with 4 shots you need to be already running or climbing a tree !!!

Beretz, has a 35 Newton, it wouldn't surprise me to see him show up on this thread. He even made some cases from the 375 Ruger. I had a 375 Ruger and it is a great round, for where I hunt a 35 Newton would have done the same thing with less recoil and been better for me. That said I'm more than satisfied with what the standard 35 Whelen delivers, but it sure is nice to experiment

MM,
I think I probably did take it the wrong way and I do apologize, no harm either way I hope.
I also read (or tried to) his lengthy piece on cartridge efficiency on his website. Totally lost me after about a paragraph. I also sort of scratched my head at his business model of making his cartridges totally proprietary, going so far as to not even publish a case diagram. If you want a rifle chambered for one of his cartridges, your gonna have to have him chamber it. Some nice looking cartridges, none the less, even if they don't quite reach the velocities advertised.
Now a 35/375 Ruger, that would be the ticket. But then what would I use my 375 Ruger for (or my 35BW, or 338-06, or 300Win, or 30-06, or 308Win). Too many rifles in calibers larger than I really need already.
Steve

The .375 Ruger will fit in a standard action and is belt less. Look up in the articles section and check out Rick Bins article on the 338 x 375 Ruger to get a better idea of the case.

The 35 Whelen is a fine cartridge and performs beyond it's case capacity. But to get much more you would have to go with a belted case or a medium like the Ruger ( similar to the 8x68mm case ).

I have always wanted a .350 Rigby or .35 Newton for no real reason other than nostalgia and they are both great cartridges.

RE: Magazine capacity
Not a reference to your proficiency.
I was thinking of culling ( taking multiples out of a herd ) and the outside chance of a botched job.

I have a Remington Model 721 that has been rechambered to 35 Brown-Whelen. I am looking for information regarding sizing and fireforming the brass for it. Seems to be a lot of conflicting info on the process. I have a set of CH4D dies for it. Any information would be appreciated.

I don't get why someone cannot be satisfied with a 250 grain bullet of good construction launched at 2400 fps in the Whelen. It's devastating.

I like my Whelen, I got this rifle because it got my curiosity up and I like a challenge.

In 1960, just before my college graduation, I made the only serious mistake I have made to date in handloading and ended up with 60 grains of IMR 3031 behind a 220 grain cast bullet in my 1917 Enfield .30-'06. I survived it with no permanent injuries but the rifle had developed headspace. Having read a long article in Gun Digest about the .35 Brown Improved Whelen, I sent the rifle off to P.O. Ackley to be rebored to .35 caliber and rechambered to that caliber. Until this year, I had never killed anything with it. Something always seemed to come up in the way. This year, however, I bagged a healthy sized buck and can report that the cartridge killed him dead at about 75 yards. The load was not chronographed, however.

No headspace problems.

Re: Steve_in_OR I would be interested if you could point me in the direction for info on the 35 Brown-Whelen cartridge. I have gotten as far as running 30-06 brass in the
35 B-W dies with no problem so far. Any insight would be helpful.

If you open those cases up to 375, you should get enough shoulder to headspace the cartridge for fireforming. Do not use light loads to fireform. A snappy load with a faster burning powder works best. GD

There are three ways I would approach it:

1. Get some .30-06 basic (cylindrical). Size it in your FL die for a tight fit in your chamber. Fireform with a 200 gr bullet using a middle-of-the-road Whelen load.

2. Neck up 35 Whelen brass. I'd use a .375 tapered expander. Then follow the steps in (1.) above.

3. Buy some Quality Cartridge .35 B-W headstamped brass.

Had a buddy with a Brown Whelen way back in the 70's. He ran the 275 Hornady in it, thumped a few elk. Sold it to another buddy who kept it to his death. The steps above are good advice on necking up whatever brass you have then put the BW neck on it just enough to get a solid hold. Load up normal Whelen loads and fireform. Most of the gains from the standard Whelen and the AI or BW are really pressure differences in the handloads I would say. Loading to 60 PSI in the standard whelen with good modern powders will get you to over 2600 FPS in normal barrels with a 250 cup and core.

I just posted in the big bore forum. I just bought a 35 Brown Whelen. Don't listen to the naysayers! There's always someone who has to say that their choice is superior. I suspect that they have a short dick and can't help writing how their thoughts are superior to others' thoughts.

Loaddata has some loads which came from an Handloader article.

Ackley has a short write up in his "Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders". He claims to get 200 FPS over the Whelen with 300 grain bullets, 200 FPS with 250 grain, and 150 FPS with 220 grain bullets.

I was looking at Loaddata and comparing 35 Brown Whelen with 350 RM (I have two 350 RM's) and the increase looks to be similar.

Having wrote that I wonder if those Brown Whelen loads were pressure tested.

Steve in OR look a couple of posts above you posted that you use a 24 foot barrel. Maybe hit the shift key. Be Well and never waste your time on Asstralabs or Steelhead. RZ.

This is what I have accomplished so far. Bought the Handbook of cartridge conversions. I have expanded them up to .375 and then run them thru my 35 BW sizing die.
That was my next question whether to use a middle 35 Whelen load to fireform. I only split 4 cases out of 75. Thought that was pretty good. Thanks for the advice.

Bugger, I got this Brown-Whelen because it got my curiosity up. I have a regular Whelen and a 350 Rem Mag,along with a 358 Norma Mag. I'm a big bore Lover myself.BTW Thanks for your service Marine, Retired Navy here. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you for that and all the fine rides you guys gave us. haha -- I'm a sucker for big bore rifles and for something a little different.

Look at the big-bore forum regarding the 35 BW.

Those loads listed on that thread seems warm to me just because of how the author seems to have loaded to where there were 'signs' of too much pressure - then backed off a grain or two. "A person can get amazing velocity with amazing pressures."

I'd imagine that MD's rule of percent increased capacity, percent increased powder, will get you increased velocity might be the way to go.

Also there's a link, which I've lost for now that simulates the old Powley slide rule - that might be a good reference place.

When I bought the rifle the guy gave me some of his old reloads. I rarely trust some one else's reloads. But I measured the powder and his reloads seem to be about the same as Whelen loads. He wrote the loads on the side of the box, but I measured any how. I'm still not sure I'll shoot his loads.

My Whelen is plenty good enough as is. The new data from Speer has it on par with the 338 Win mag. Seems like that is a pretty useful place to be and the Whelen easily loads down to mild deer loads. With your bullet selection there is not much you couldn't hunt with the standard Whelen.

More than 30 yrs. ago I had Randall Redman rebore a pre'64 M/70 to .35 Whelen, it has been my go to rifle for whitetail ever since. When I got the rifle back from Redman I did extensive range testing of most bullet/powder selections popular at the time. I found that Sierra 225gr. Game Kings over IMR 4064 gave the best accuracy, that was my hunting load for many years. Fast forward a bit and I had rotator cuff surgery on my shooting shoulder, in search of a milder load I consulted Ken Water's Pet Loads. Ken spoke highly of a load consisting of a 200gr. Hornady Inter-lok RN and IMR 3031 powder. My first trip to the range with that load proved Water's findings as to accuracy of the load to be valid. The first group with that load produced a 3 shot cloverleaf @ 100yds., I'd found my new whitetail load. The first whitetail I harvested with this load was a raking shot @ 100yds., the bullet entered just ahead of the last two ribs and traversed the body coming to rest just under the skin of the far shoulder. It was perfectly mushroomed and retained 66% of it original weight. When field dressed the contents of the chest cavity looked as if they'd been put in a blender. Somehow the buck managed a 40yd. run before piling up with his antlers tangled in a fence.

Many years ago, my brother and I were in an Ace Hardware store in Sioux Falls. On the rack were two Remington 700 35 Whelen's. One was priced under dealer cost, while the other was priced at retail. The clerk told us that if a rifle doesn't sell the price would be lowered until it sold. The two rifles looked like twins. My brother needed the "cheap" rifle more than I. He used it on elk and deer. One of his kids wanted it after he died, because it was his "favorite" - otherwise I would have bought it at his estate sale. It was very accurate and it dropped elk and deer fast. I've been looking for a decent priced 700 35 Whelen ever since.
Now I have two Remington 350 Rem Mags (600 & 700 Classic), on my second 35 Remington (a JM Marlin), on my second 358 Win (a re-barreled Remington 700), and this 35 Brown Whelen.

It's my experience that the 35's do quite well. Maybe I need a 358 Norma Mag - I have a re-stocked Ruger 77 that could be a donor...

JES bored my 30 Gibbs to 35 Gibbs and I believe that's about all a 06 case will handle, but it does with ease and 2700fps w/250 gr is easily attainable with probably a bit more,, I have studied Hawk,Ackley,and Brown Whelen a bunch and they are all cool. The 280 Swift A Frame @ 2450fps is a deadly combo for moose and brown bear.

So which cartridge has more case capacity: 35 Gibbs or 35 Brown Whelen? I suspect the are about the same case, aren't they?

I took my Brown Whelen out to shoot a couple of days ago. The previous owner didn't modify the feed ramp or the magazine for the larger case - it fed poorly. This rifle is a pre-64 Winchester. I think I'll have the barrel set back and re-chambered for the 35 Whelen. I don't mind messing with the feed on a Mauser, but don't want to modify this action. If someone needs a 35 Brown Whelen set of RCBS dies and some used brass, give me a holler. This is a chance to get some specialty dies at a reasonable price.

This is what I'm after now...... the 6.5 RPM necked up to 358 cal holds 83.0 gr of h20, my improved version holds 90 gr of h20

........

There is this cartridge called the 358 Norma Magnum that you can even get ammo for -------

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/the-heavyweight-358-norma

Rather than alter the feed on my pre-64 action, I had the barrel set back and chambered for the35 Whelen. I have had a set of 35 Whelen dies waiting for a rifle some time now. So if anyone wants a set of 35 Brown Whelen dies, I have a set that probably I'll never need.

That’s a very cool picture. I wouldn’t mind doing that to my 400 whelen.

great read.own many rifles in different calibers.a custom 358 sta and i bought a 35 whelen new in a rem classic in 1989.sent it to one of the few smiths i trusted who redid the rifle.barrel,trued action the right way and new rimrock stock from jim borden.one of the best stock designs ever.all the required work.clay spencer was the smith.opinionated was a understatement.he retired and was one ot the best ever.anyway i have taken elk,moose and bear with it.it kills above its pay grade with minimal recoil.shoots well under 1/2 inch with different loads and bullets.yes the 35 whelen in any guise is a great caliber.by the way one bear was a grizz just under 200 yards.went ten yards.

I have a .35 Brown-Whelen built by Curt in Forest Grove Oregon in the 1980's 22" Douglas premium barrel on a Ruger #3 action with new #1 wood. My elk load is a Speer 250 gr spitzer chrono'd @ 2625 fps over 63 gr of IMR 4064. Earlier had a standard .35 Whelen on a 700 ADL with a 24" barrel that got about 100 fps less out of 54.5 gr of IMR 3031.

Anyone try a 25 or 270 on the B/W case?

The 280AI is the same as the Briwn Whelen necked down to 7mm.

375whelen AI vs 280 AI

Dang it I had a photo of the Brown Whelen and the 280AI. The only difference was neck diameter.

True words.

False. This is the second year Iowa has listed the 35 Whelen right in the regulations as an approved rifle cartridge now legal during the shotgun seasons. Other states such as Louisiana have done the same thing. From what I'm seeing the 35 Whelen is just waking up. Drop anything 35 Whelen in the classifieds section and see what happens.

I do agree that the ammo as loaded by big green may not be the best choice for the big bears. But Remington actually used the Hornady 250gr round nose interlock in their factory ammo. That load at 2400 fps would be just fine for the biggest stuff. I read a story where Craig B. Actually flipped over a moose with this load.

Mississippi also list the 35 Whelen for primitive weapon season. Here in Louisiana the 35 Whelen is very popular and a 9.3X62 is no where to be found

It will kill everything in all 50.

And Africa

The 35 W can get it done.

Actually Bugger, the 280 AI and the BW do not share the same base to shldr dimensions. Correct one ate as follows.

280 AI base to shldr = 2.097
280 AI shoulder diameter. is.455

Gibbs base to shldr=2.1497
Gibbs shldr=.455

BW base to shldr=2.1266
BW shldr Dia. =.462.

A lot of smith's will just run a 35 Whelen AI reamer in to the depth of the BW shldr and call it a Brown-Whelen but it's not. If you don't believe me JGS in Oregon has the original prints.

[quote=SKane][quote=oldman1942]

Ask him how he knows…apex predators die to the 35 Whelen