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valad Offline OP
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I loaded up a few rounds (26) of .223 and headed to the range. I used the OAL and the brass was trimmed etc. When I was at the range and closed the bolt on the loaded round, the bolt closed extremely tight. It was harder than normal and this was from several samples of the load rounds. Could this be because the case was not sized right? The shoulders may have been pushed out too far?

BTW this morning I went ahead and loaded my 270Win but I did not have the case to use the OAL so I used the black marker on a fired case that was used in this rifle. The loaded round brass was trimmed etc. And it shot fine but apparently was not on paper at 100 yards and this rifle was bore sighted. Not sure what the problem is with this loaded round in NBT 130gr. but I will look into this too. However I brought this up in this post because I used the black marker to find my OAL and this worked fine.

Maybe how I used the OAL gauge may be the issue with the 223Rem loaded round because the bolt was hard to close? Would the black market method be more accurate? And do I need a fired brass from that rifle to use the black market method? Not sure I have a fired round from the 223Re rifle.

I am trying to figure what is causing the bolt to close hard on the 223Rem rifle? Do you think its the brass sizing? BTW I got this brass from someone here in classifieds but the brass was resized. Any ideas? I could try to find a fired brass (does it need to be from this rifle) and use the black market method and see if this is different from the OAL I got but I do not think this is the problem. More likely it is the brass sizing problem?

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So someone else sized it??

That's where I would start.

Size a few piece in a quality die and compare how it chamber vs. the "sized" brass you purchased, and report back to us;.


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valad Offline OP
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Nope. I got the fired 200 piece of brass and it has the primer in so it was not sized if fired one time. This is all Winchester brass. I deprimed and sized this brass. I went and checked the loaded round and its trimmed to correct length 1.750". I made up a dummy round when I first starting reloading last week and the OAL was about .005 less than my loads that I brought to the range. I put this dummy in the rifle and closed the bolt and it was slightly hard to close but not as hard as the loaded rounds I made up (this dummy round did not have a primer in it as I used this to test the seater etc.)

So from all indications maybe I should have went ahead and fired my rounds at the range? But I decided not to as it was hard to close the bolt and I have never had a bolt close this hard. Still trying to figure out what the heck is wrong.

Whats your definition of quality dies? I have the RCBS dies and would have thought they would be ok. All of my dies are RCBS.

Last edited by valad; 03/08/14.
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Go ahead and resize them again.

Knocking the primers out and reusing them should pose no problem.

They are still a little long for your rifle.

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valad:

From what you describe, your full length re-sizing die may have been improperly adjusted and was not sizing the case enough to allow it to fully re-enter the chamber i.e. when sizing, the case did not go into the die enough to resize the base of the case.

One of the other posters is suggesting you pull the loaded bullets, adjust your die down in the press more, and re-size the cases; check after re-sizing by loading each re-sized case and that each allows a closed bolt with minimal pressure to do so.

When re-sizing after pulling the bullets, take out the de-priming pin from the FL sizing die and you won't have to knock out the unfired primer.

Last edited by BuckeyeSpecial; 03/08/14.
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valad:

Also, what measurement was the cartridges' Over All Length (OAL)?

What is the "black marker" method you refer to for OAL?

One measures a loaded cartridge's OAL [length from case head to bullet point]with a dial caliper. Perhaps you are marking the bullet to see where it engraves the rifling; if so, fine, but that is not really the cartridge's OAL....sometimes also written as COAL.

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Vlad, I do not consider RCBS dies as the end all, be all dies that some do. I've had some issues with their sizing dies in the past and now prefer Redding dies, especially for .223. I'm not suggesting anyone needs the $250 competition dies, but I find their $40.00 basic dies provide a good return on investment.

Regardless, you can probably fix your problem with your existing dies by screwing them in another 1/2 turn and resizing your brass. If that doesn't fix it, you have an issue with the OAL, and may need to screw in your seating die a 1/4-1/2 turn.

Isolate and adjust one variable at a time, and see which one fixed it.



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valad Offline OP
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Buckeye,

I feel my resizing die did not size the case enough, and maybe it did not size to the base of the case. Not sure how this happened as I followed the instruction to the letter. So how is the resizing die supposed to be adjust further then? By screwing the die in more?

Did not think of taking out the de-priming pin so I do not have to punch out the primer and then having to prime again. thanks for the idea.

As for the black marker OAL (and I know I am getting OAL and COAL mixed up), I put a bullet I am going to use in a fired case, pushing just slightly so the case holds the bullet. Then mark the bullet all black and insert this case in the chamber and close the bolt. Then open the bolt and usually the bullet does not come out with the case. Remove the bullet and put this same bullet back in the case up to where the mark indicates where the bullet stopped being pushed in. This is the length of the cartridge where the lands meet. I read this in the Speer book and I have seen others stated they do this too. It seem much easier for me because when I used the Stoney OAL I have to take repetitive measurements and most of them are never the same and are very slightly different by .002 or so if I am stating it correctly.

When you say "adjust your die down in the press more" how do you know if you have gone too far then?

Originally Posted by BuckeyeSpecial
valad:

From what you describe, your full length re-sizing die may have been improperly adjusted and was not sizing the case enough to allow it to fully re-enter the chamber i.e. when sizing, the case did not go into the die enough to resize the base of the case.

One of the other posters is suggesting you pull the loaded bullets, adjust your die down in the press more, and re-size the cases; check after re-sizing by loading each re-sized case and that each allows a closed bolt with minimal pressure to do so.

When re-sizing after pulling the bullets, take out the de-priming pin from the FL sizing die and you won't have to knock out the unfired primer.

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valad Offline OP
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anteploe,
I know what you mean. on these forums and all other forums, there will always be favorites that everyone touts. Since I have these dies I ain't going to toss them, instead trying to see where the problem is and work with it. These dies "should" work though.

I see you saying screwing my dies in another 1/2 turn to see if that works. I was wondering how much to screw the dies in.

Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Vlad, I do not consider RCBS dies as the end all, be all dies that some do. I've had some issues with their sizing dies in the past and now prefer Redding dies, especially for .223. I'm not suggesting anyone needs the $250 competition dies, but I find their $40.00 basic dies provide a good return on investment.

Regardless, you can probably fix your problem with your existing dies by screwing them in another 1/2 turn and resizing your brass. If that doesn't fix it, you have an issue with the OAL, and may need to screw in your seating die a 1/4-1/2 turn.

Isolate and adjust one variable at a time, and see which one fixed it.


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Originally Posted by Vlad
So how is the resizing die supposed to be adjust further then? By screwing the die in more?


Yes.

But be careful. Screw an RCBS die in too much and you will crush the top of the case. That's why I've traded most of mine for Redding dies. That, and the tighter tolerances on the Redding products.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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valad Offline OP
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Buckeye,

My OAL is 2.330 -/+ .002. I know Speer #14 book lists theirs as 2.260 but I know its all a little different among bullet companies since this is measured from the tip.

When I put the dummy round in the rifle it did not seem to push the bullet back any.

I felt I was having an issue with the case resizing. Guess I got it slightly wrong.

I have the Frankford impact bullet puller and will have to read up on how to use it. At least I am learning something new anyways.

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Vlad, I said half a turn, but I usually go in an 1/8th of a turn at a time until I achieve the results I'm looking for. Especially with RCBS dies, you want to be able to size as much of the base of the case as possible without crushing the top.

Just keep screwing it in a bit at a time until you achieve the desired result.


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Originally Posted by valad


My OAL is 2.330 -/+ .002. I know Speer #14 book lists theirs as 2.260 but I know its all a little different among bullet companies since this is measured from the tip.



So does Nosler on the BT 2.260, and have found that 50BTs in the 223 like to be seated deeper as they like a little jump. Try 2.250 for depth and see what happens.
Listen to the advice on the dies, its good.



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valad Offline OP
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Swifty,

Thanks for the information. I went off the lands at .020. What would you consider "seated deeper"? Since I already have these RCBS dies I will use them. But how would the other dies be better?

I whacked the inertia bullet puller last night and woke everyone up lol. My daughter said it sounds like someone trying to break in the house. So I did it again and WOW is all I can say...did not remove the bullet from the case. Guess I am going to have to try harder.

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Originally Posted by valad
Swifty,

Thanks for the information. I went off the lands at .020. What would you consider "seated deeper"? Since I already have these RCBS dies I will use them. But how would the other dies be better?

I whacked the inertia bullet puller last night and woke everyone up lol. My daughter said it sounds like someone trying to break in the house. So I did it again and WOW is all I can say...did not remove the bullet from the case. Guess I am going to have to try harder.



Inertia pullers are, no offense, Junk. Buy a collet puller that screws into your press.
Now what I have read into this is that you used a comparator to find the lands. These as I have found can give very misleading results. While getting you close, getting the feel for when you kiss the lands or actually have it jammed is critical.
I found that if the bullet will not fall out of the rifle when tipped up without smacking the action, you are to far into the lands. It should actually come out with the case or just by tipping the rifle up.
The OAL given in the manuals is actually a good starting point for seating as it should work in 90% of the factory rifles out there. Also a good recommendation since it seems you are new to this. You being 70 thou over suggests that you may be running a jam. This along with improperly sized brass will definitely cause your problem.

Adjust the dies as Antelope Sniper has suggested, resize a couple, run your seating depth back to 2.260 and see what happens when you chamber the dummy. It just might surprise you.

Last edited by Swifty52; 03/09/14.


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valad:

Let's qualify the terms - the The Stoney Point tool is not measuring the cartridge OAL; it is measuring the Distance to the lands (from the case head to the .224 measurement of the ogive of the bullet)....I call this the Distance To The Lands (DTTL) in my reloading lingo, and others can too.


[quote=valad]
It seem much easier for me because when I used the Stoney OAL I have to take repetitive measurements and most of them are never the same and are very slightly different by .002 or so if I am stating it correctly.


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The bullet puller takes some whacks to get that bullet out; if you have a 1 inch thick piece of native oak to use an an anvil it helps....

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When you say "adjust your die down in the press more" how do you know if you have gone too far then?

valad:

Adjust your die down in increments, sizing a case as you go with each successive 1/8 turn of the die and insert the case into the chamber of the rifle (as I stated) and close the bolt. Still too tight when you close the bolt....adjust the die down a bit more , resize, and try in the chamber and close the bolt.

When you have it right, the bolt will close with only a slight resistance on the empty, re-sized case and that means you have now re-sized the neck/shoulder junction correctly without setting the shoulder back at all, or just the right amount, which is good.

(Setting the shoulder back too far can create an excessive head space issue which cam be measured by purchasing an RCBS Precision micrometer to avoid such a re-sizing error...more on that later).

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RCBS dies are OK, I have no trouble with mine as purchased and used since 1983.

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valad Offline OP
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I seem to be getting confused with OAL. This is the measure from the tip of the bullet to the head...the overall length. This is virtually useless when you are reloading because the OAL will always be different. What reloaders are interested in is the contact point at the ogive regardless of the OAL...but the finished ammo needs to fit in the magazine unless loading single shot.

The Stoney and Comparator measures to the ogive.

I am in the process of removing the bullets and as someone and you stated adjust die down in increments until the case just fits in the chamber with minimal pressure.

BTW...its a chore to remove the bullets. I must have done more than 10 whacks before the bullet came out. I incorrectly assume the die was set up for sizing case but in reality I should have size one case and see if it fits in the chamber and get it right and then size all cases knowing it will work. At least I only got 28 cases to remove the bullet but I also have to resize probably 100 cases again. Live and learn...

BTW thanks to you and all of the other guys as I am learning a bit.

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