Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Difference between Barnes no. 3 and no. 4 manuals

Hello, I have been a member for a while, but this is my first post. I have a question I hope someone can answer for me. I have a BLR in 358 caliber. I was thinking about trying some barnes bullets in it. I have the Barnes manual no. 3, and I was comparing the loads in it with the no. 4 manual. The loads in the no. 4 manual seem really weak compared to the no. 3 manual that I have. The bullets used in no. 3 are the XFB, and the bullets in no. 4 are the TSX. Is there that much difference in the bullets to account for the reduced loads in the no. 4 manual? Can I still use the no. 3 manual for the TSX bullet? Even other brands of bullets manuals have stronger loads than the Barnes no. 4 manual. Now, don't know if I even want to try the Barnes bullets.

I shoot a 358 BLR as well. I dont have an answer for you, but I'm curious what folks have to say about this.

I'll say this, ballistically speaking, the 200 TSX doesnt inspire me at all. I've never shot any, but they dont appear to do anything better than other projectiles. 180 or 200 TTSX look far more tempting to me.

My go to bullet so far has been the 225 Nos PT, but its painfully expensive. I really, really want to find some 200 gr Nos AB's. I think that'd be the perfect 358 Win projectile. Unfortunately, there arent any available as best I can tell at the moment.

shane

You cannot substitute TSX or TTSX data for use with Xs or XLCs.

Use the Barnes #4 for TSXs. Another good source is Hodgdon's on line data.

Do you have any idea about why the big difference? I am only comparing the 358 win. data in the two manuals, but it really puzzles me. I am fairly new to reloading, and I am still learning. That is why I am asking all of the experts on this forum.

Barnes' original X bullets had no grooves and also had a well deserved reputation for producing more pressure that cup and core bullets of the same weight. Barnes #4 manual is pretty much all TSX bullets which produce notably lower pressures.

In between came the XLC coated bullets which were much more like the TSXs pressure wise.

Then by definition, powder charges should be higher in the No 4 should they not?

Barnes #4 does not list pressure. I no longer have my Barnes #3, but I do not remember seeing pressures there.

Barnes #4 is not the least bit wimpy when it comes to velocity though. By my standards, those are pretty stout loads. I bet they're right up there near SAAMI max.

I guess I made a mistake in asking for advice on this forum. I thought someone would have a good answer for me. I probably won't be posting on here again. Bye.

Barnes has pretty good customer service and technical assistance. Maybe they have an answer for you. I use loads from the #3 with TSX with no problem. When the TSX first came out, it was said that on average, the TSX would take charges 2 grains heavier than the XFB.

I know that with the 168 TSX, a max charge from the older manual of H414 gives good velocity and very good accuracy, and I do not chase the high velocity figures anyway. At 2900 ft/sec out of a 30-06, that's good enough for every moose or deer I have ever seen or killed.

Blow it out your ass, how's that?

I guess from your reply I didn't dumb it down far enough.

An original X bullet without grooves will likely produce SAAMI max pressure at a noticeably lower powder charge than a TSX or TTSX.

Barnes #3 was largely X bullets and Barnes #4 is largely TSX bullets. Therefore Barnes #3 will usually show lower powder charges than Barnes #4. Velocity may or may not be noticeably different for a given load, but My experience is that it will be lower with the X bullet more often than it will be higher when compared to the TSX.

Here's some free advise and a good answer for you:

Those of us who've been around long enough to know what we are doing and not do ourselves or our rifles harm tend to be older and crochety. You don't even appear to know what the question you're trying to ask really is or how to put the question. Since you know neither, and you know that you don't know the whys, then you ought to consider whether insulting the people who can help you is in your best interests. Steelhead is one of the people on this board who's been shooting Barnes about as long as I have and he has a lot of answers. He doesn't suffer fools gladly. If we didn't understand your question, stop and consider that maybe you didn't understand what you were trying to ask well enough to form the question.

Quit holding back, Miles. You're going to hurt yourself.

I have been shooting Barnes X bullets since 1990, covering most bullet weights in most calibers, many thousands in many rifles and cartridges.

Never ever do I use a reloading manual to work up loads. Every rifle is different as is every barrel and chamber. Brass batches change as do brands, powders vary from batch to batch and since 1990, some of those powders have been regraded and had burning rates and coatings modified so results have varied over that time while some remain the same or similar enough not to notice much change.

All bands of manuals have also changed and loads within by more than 10% in a great many chamberings.

Without trying ti sound derogatory, what difference does it now make?

The best thing any handloader can do is buy a decent chronograph and work up your own loads.

There are blokes on this site using 55gn of H4350 with 180's in their .30/06's. There are probably more using 57 or 57.7 grains and I use 60 grains but we all get the same velocity of close to or just over 2800fps which is a known and safe velocity for that bullet weight in that case.

The reloading manuals are something to find a starting load with, not a top end load and definitely not "the" load for a particular rifle.

Buying a chronograph teaches you more than you can read. It opens a new door to learning by permitting more minute comparisons like adjusting seating depths, changing both powders and charges. Changing primers and adding or subtracting case preparation ideals.

I would not worry a second on why any manuals vary. The honest answer is "so what". How about the starting loads? Add a couple of grains to that and start on the road to learning and you will end up answering questions instead of asking them.

Handloading is a hobby separate and complimentary to hunting that is rewarding in tailoring a load to both a rifle and teh intended game. That's all and that's enough.

In addition to changes in powders, the bullets are different as has been pointed out. You will probably see near published velocity, adjusted for barrel length. The bullets work very well and are certainly with a try.

Miles, Go back an read what the OP wrote. He's asking a pertinent question and you're missing with every shot. Barnes with their original XFB and XBT data did tend to run it pretty hot. Since it is widely claimed that the grooved "T" bullets lower pressures, the data should be safe, or at least less dangerous than it was with the ungrooved bullets.