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It's pretty amazing what a 140 VLD @ 3100-3200 will do when pushed along with modern powders...………..

Not much recoil either.




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I have one made by Kenny Jarrett which developed loads for. It shoot bug holes as long as I do my part.

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How will the 6.5x300 Weatherby compare?

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Originally Posted by Siskiyous6

Of course there is no definition of obsolete that would satisfy many at the fire, but I hold that the .264 Winchester Magnum is still one of the finest long range options out there for Western Game.

Some of the finest hunters I know carry nothing else in the field for Moose, Deer, Bear, Elk, Goats, Sheep, and Antelope. And any of the various 264's would kill the same range of game.

Would anyone here refuse to hunt because they were going to have to use a .264?


I own one - a 24" M70 Featherweight - and hunt it. It's a good cartridge. It would be better with a default 1:8" twist, but the 1:9" is OK. In a vacuum I'd rather have a 6.5mm short magnum (any of the three would do), but right now they're poorly supported while the .264WM is well supported. So I convert the cases to headspace on the shoulder with the first firing and call it good.

The 26 Nosler is well designed, but really has ultra-magnum capacity and wants a slow Retumbo-like powder that doesn't exist to make best use of it with 160 Weldcores (which is all I would consider shooting in it). It ends up with a lot of empty space with most non-50BMG powders and heavy bullets.

I'd call the .264WM a niche round. If it does get obsoleted by a superior non-belted short or long action magnum with good support, I'll be happy the world has made something I've wanted for a while and buy the replacement.

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Originally Posted by vapodog
Originally Posted by BobinNH
Once upon a time the 264 was the 26 Nosler of its time.

I'm sure there were folks proclaiming the 264 dead on arrival too. Many cartridges come along, have their time in the spotlight, then become relatively obscure.

Examples are abundant,and it rarely has much to do with whether they are good or not.

very interesting post.....and can't say I disagree with any of it.....
I've owned two M-70 rifles in .264 Mag and liked them both except I just am not a long barrel fan....26 " barrels don't fit in my gun cabinet.....I even bobbed my .300 H&H from 26" to 24" to make it a tad easier to carry without snagging every branch in the mountains. My current model is a custom I produced and it sports a 23" barrel......and it's a lot happier in my gun rack than the older 26" model was.

I much prefer it over the .257 Weatherby rifles I've owned for it's ability to handle heavier bullets and with 100 grain TTSX, it shoots very well

In truth, I have never done anything with it that I couldn't have done with my .25-06 or my 270 Winchester....but it's not for sale....at least not yet.

Is it obsolete?....certainly not in my house!

I'm glad this old post was brought forward.

I love reading BobinNH. He always made sense and had a dry sense of humor.

I miss that guy as do many here.

RIP, Bob.

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Originally Posted by mtnfisher
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
David,

I tried several powders in my Ruger .264 for an article in HANDLOADER, and Ramshot Magnum, Reloder 25 and Retumbo worked best. In my rifle 63.5 grains of RL-25 shot the smallest groups woith 140's, and showed zero signs of high pressure with cases or over the chronograph, even though it's 3.5 grains over Alliant's max. But am in the process of trying some even slower powders now, which are more temp-stable than RL-15--though 25 would work fine if you're not hunting in widely varying weather.

I should add that in my first .264, a pre-'64 Model 70 Westerner, Magnum turned out to be the best powder with 140's. There wasn't any published data then, but the load I settled on (68.5 grains) turned out to be just about exactly what Ramshot lists as their maximum among 140's today. It got around 3220 fps and very good accuracy from the 26" barrel.



Hi John,

How temp-stable is Ramshot Magnum

Thanks


It's OK but not great. The numbers Mule Deer gave you are about the best you're likely to see for temp stability with it. Some loads won't be as good.

As is always the case, you can make any powder more stable by choosing your charge weight on a velocity node, and make it worse by choosing on an anti-node.

Retumbo is much, much better for similar applications in terms of stability. If Retumbo's too slow burning for what you want to do, RL-23 is the next faster highly temp stable option.

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I miss Bob too!!

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by vapodog
Originally Posted by BobinNH
Once upon a time the 264 was the 26 Nosler of its time.

I'm sure there were folks proclaiming the 264 dead on arrival too. Many cartridges come along, have their time in the spotlight, then become relatively obscure.

Examples are abundant,and it rarely has much to do with whether they are good or not.

very interesting post.....and can't say I disagree with any of it.....
I've owned two M-70 rifles in .264 Mag and liked them both except I just am not a long barrel fan....26 " barrels don't fit in my gun cabinet.....I even bobbed my .300 H&H from 26" to 24" to make it a tad easier to carry without snagging every branch in the mountains. My current model is a custom I produced and it sports a 23" barrel......and it's a lot happier in my gun rack than the older 26" model was.

I much prefer it over the .257 Weatherby rifles I've owned for it's ability to handle heavier bullets and with 100 grain TTSX, it shoots very well

In truth, I have never done anything with it that I couldn't have done with my .25-06 or my 270 Winchester....but it's not for sale....at least not yet.

Is it obsolete?....certainly not in my house!

I'm glad this old post was brought forward.

I love reading BobinNH. He always made sense and had a dry sense of humor.

I miss that guy as do many here.

RIP, Bob.

DF


The man is certainly missed. RIP Bob.


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Llama Bob,

How do you test for temperature stability?


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Given a choice, with a thermal chamber at the range. Use the chamber to force the rounds to the right temp, wait for them to stabilize, and fire with a chrono. A small freezer and a thermometer isn't a bad alternative.

With respect to temp testing, I will say that lots of people have done it, and no one gets the same results as anyone else. However, I've seen enough data to become convinced that the ADI/Hodgdon series with Varget, H3450 and Retumbo, plus the Alliant RL-23/RL-16/ARCOMP series are the most temp stable powders available.

The particulars of the load used for testing seem to matter a lot, and I suspect that's why no one's data agrees. As far as I can tell, it boils down to loads being on a velocity node or not. If they're on a node, everything is more stable. If they're on an anti-node, everything is worse. When the charge weights are chosen without respect to a velocity ladder, the results are all over the place. Hotter primers also reduce temp sensitivity. I use Federal 215s on everything for that reason - they're the second highest brisance large primer you can get behind 215 Match and I've had a hard time finding 215 Match reliably.

Last edited by Llama_Bob; 04/16/19.
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So what sort of temperature range are you testing? It sounds like you are heating/cooling the ammunition, and not the test barrel.


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I pretty much use cci magnum primers in all me loads now.


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Angus,

That was something else I was going to bring up concerning Bob's post. When I have visited the Federal primer-making facility, they've emphasized that Federal Match primers are exactly the same as the equivalent non-match primers in every way--except consistency. The F215M's are not hotter than F215's. (Have also visited the CCI primer factory, and they say the same thing about their standard and "benchrest" primers.)

Also, though 215's were the hottest American primer made when they appeared, CCI switched to a hotter priming compound for their magnum primers in the early 1990's, and claimed they were then hotter than 215's. But one thing I've noticed is that most primer manufacturers don't announce changes in their already-produced primers, I would guess because they want handloaders to feel confident they're getting the same product.

I know there have been three different versions of the CCI 450, their small-rifle magnum primer, since it was introduced in the 1960's. The first used the same amount and type of priming compound used in CCI 400's, but had a thicker cup to withstand the higher pressure of cartridges being introduced then, primarily the .223 Remington. The next version used more of the same priming compound, to better ignite some powders, especially sphericals. The version now made was changed, like 250's, in the early 1990's to a hotter priming compound.

I also switched from F215's (both standard and match) to CCI's a few years ago, because Federal primers became so scarce during the Obama panic. If anything, many of my loads improved in accuracy when I switched from F215's (both versions) to CCI 250's, and most loads also gained a little velocity, indicating the 250's are indeed a little hotter than 215's. But as noted, often primer manufacturers make changes without making a public announcement. (Will also note that Federal also makes an even hotter magnum primer, the 216, for extra-large cases such as the .470 Nitro Express. But they don't sell them to handloaders. I have some, given to me by a piezo lab during one of my visits years ago.)

Will also note that even pressure-lab techs will disagree on primer performance. I known two guys in charge of BIG labs for decades, one for a powder company and one for a bullet/ammo company. They have different preferences in rifle primers, one preferring Winchester and CCI, the other Federal.

There are also quite a few shooters who prefer rifle primers made in Europe, claiming they're more consistent. In fact I switched 2-3 years ago from American small-rifle primers in my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle, because Sellier & Bellot primers provided a small but noticeable edge in accuracy.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
So what sort of temperature range are you testing? It sounds like you are heating/cooling the ammunition, and not the test barrel.

Last time I did it, I did 140F down to -20F. The high top temp was to simulate solar heating of a black rifle in the sun. I figured below -20, I'm not hunting.

I only forced the ammo temp, not the rifle. The rounds were quickly moved to the rifle and fired, and I'm comfortable that rounds ignited with the powder temp very close to the target temp. My working assumption is that powder (and maybe primer?) temp is all that matters, and barrel/action temp is irrelevant. In my experiences hot chamber/barrel caused by long strings of fire don't seem to increase velocity unless rounds sit in the chamber for a while which appears to support the "ammo only" approach as long as you hustle.

Plus I've got no hope of borrowing a thermal chamber that will hold a rifle fun as it would be.

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Interesting note on the primer thing. I don't have a way to test it - I just have to believe what people tell me.

My understanding is that 215 Match is the same as 215, just with the best guys on the line making them. However, the tests I've seen say that results in a little more priming compound on average and just looking at them that seems to be true.

Of course the possibility that things change is omnipresent...

The only publicly available info I'm aware of is
http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_testing_reference.htm

His results seem to suggest the 215 and 215 match not being the same on average as well.

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Thanks.

My experience is that the temperature of the rifle does affect velocity. I have tested ammo both ways, by heating.cooling the ammo only, and by firing in outdoor conditions from below zero to 100F, with the ammo often heated a little more by "greenhousing" it in a clear plastic bag. Sometimes frozen ammo works about like it does in actual cold, but more often it doesn't.

Might also comment that I've tested many other powders that you didn't list. Even some supposedly temperature sensitive powders will often perform very consistently in cold in specific applications, and sometimes some supposedly temperature-insensitive powders won't. Have discussed this with some experienced lab ballisticians, and they have experienced the same things. The guy at Hodgdon says the Extremes work best with a full case, and the right primer for the case, which doesn't necessarily have to be a magnum primer. But have also gotten very good cold results from Ia compressed load of MR4350 in the .375 H&H and 300-grain bullets, as good as any with Extreme powders.

Have also gotten result similar to the Extremes with the IMR Enduron line from 4166 to 8133. One other powder that so far has performed very coinsistently in subzero cold in cartridges from the .243 Winchester to 9.3x62 is Ramshot Big Game, in cartridges under about 55 grains in capacity with standard primers, and with magnum primers in larger ones. Ramshot TAC also works very well in specific rounds, such as the .223 Remington and .308 Winchester, which isn't surprising since it was originally designed as a military powder for the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51. Taken outside that "comfort zone," however, and it sometimes doesn't perform as consistently in cold.


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I have seen that primer test before. Don't know what it proves, any more than photos of the flame.

An independent ballistic lab test done in the 1990's ranked both the standard WLR and WLR Magnum primers as hotter than either of the 215's and the CCI 250, according to both pressure and velocity. However, it was only performed with one cartridge, powder and bullet, and the company freely admitted results might be different with other combinations. The same company also often found a measurable difference in the "same" primers from different manufacturing lots.


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264WM ballistics are as effective as ever. Better than ever with modern bullets and powders.

I believe the 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6.5 PRC are going to be the way forward for the commercial side of the house. Those three cover the 6.5 pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Thanks.

My experience is that the temperature of the rifle does affect velocity. I have tested ammo both ways, by heating.cooling the ammo only, and by firing in outdoor conditions from below zero to 100F, with the ammo often heated a little more by "greenhousing" it in a clear plastic bag. Sometimes frozen ammo works about like it does in actual cold, but more often it doesn't.


This would require quite a bit of explanation before I'd buy it. The working theory is that powder burns differently depending on its start temperature. Possibly the primer explodes differently too. If changing the temp of the rifle chamber or barrel mattered, an entirely new physical theory of what's happening would be required and not much is coming to mind. Maybe the bore contracting in the cold?!? I did a little math on that, and I believe going from the hottest to the coldest possible "cold bore" barrel temp only changes the bore diameter a couple ten thousandths, so that's hard to believe.

I'm not saying it's not interesting, but absent a physical theory of what's going on I suspect error/testing difficulties.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Better than ever with modern bullets and powders.

Yes, Retumbo and the 160gr PP Weldcore radically expanded the .264s capabilities. The various low drag 130-140ish bullets are interesting too.

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