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Originally Posted by smokepole
If you can show me where it's prohibited.......
Sure. It's called the Tenth Amendment.

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Is that the one that allows the feds to own certain land, but not other land?



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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Some people like plumbers and the like have to pay occupational taxes to the state. Those are, for the most part, nominal fees with no real strings attached, much like grazing fees were in the past. One pays a small fee and recognizes the authority of the government, whether one really thinks it is warranted or not, because it is easier than not doing it.

Now, just imagine the uproar if suddenly state governments started saying, "Well, there are too many plumbers in your area and they are having a negative impact on the installation and adoption of new environmentally friendly toilets and the like because they are repairing too many of the old ones. Therefore, we will not be accepting any occupational taxes from plumbers in that area or issuing any licenses in that area." Plumbers who had built their entire livelihoods, probably in some cases learned their trades from their fathers and having built family businesses, would ignore the state's edict and keep right on plumbing.

Oh, that would never happen you say. Well, I'm sure at one point or another someone has said, "The government will always allow grazing on its lands. After all, cheap beef production is in the best interest of the public and the cattle industry is too powerful to ever allow that to happen."

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Originally Posted by jorgeI
"This issue was settled in 1934 with the Taylor Grazing act. Private herds on Public land needed to get a permit, and be monitored for long term impact"

That about settles it right there, except for that thin line between "freedom" and some kind of goverment controls which obviously has gotten out of control in many areas. Problem here is a lot of folks confuse "freedom" with total anarchy..


It was settled, doesn't mean it was right though?

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I don't know what to tell you except no sane person wants anarchy...


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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So, I assume everyone here would be happy if the federal government put them out of business?

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Originally Posted by jorgeI
I don't know what to tell you except no sane person wants anarchy...


And it wasn't anarchy. It was a scheme developed by the earliest settlers for the use of public land often referred to as open range. It was developed so that many might utilize the same resource instead of having it fenced in and owned by one person. It was a way to raise cows in the region without having to have the capital necessary to purchase and maintain the hundreds of thousands of acres needed to keep a decent sized cow herd in that sparsely watered area. It was established by custom and practice and codified into state statutes. There is case law on it going back to the 1870s setting for the rules governing the use of open range by cattle owners and everyone else. There are rules about grazing too close to water and use of water and everything else one can imagine going all the way back and governed by the state. It was not anarchy.

And now, the feds have changed the rules.

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Is it Federal land or Nevada land?

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Originally Posted by smokepole
Is that the one that allows the feds to own certain land, but not other land?


Amendment 10

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Article I, Section 8

"The Congress shall have Power To ... " Then follows activities authorized, none of which includes holding ownership, dominion, and control, over vast stretches of land. It makes allowance for post offices, dockyards, arsenals, and other needful buildings, but makes no mention of vast stretches of land not necessary for the placing of said structures.


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Originally Posted by KansasBound
Is it Federal land or Nevada land?


Are you arguing state law does not apply on federal land? Do the feds exercise exclusive federal jurisdiction on this land?

The feds argue that it has always been federal land and that the states are creations of the federal government. The constitution seems to say that the federal government is a creation of the states.

To which theory do you subscribe?

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And it is by this same reasoning, this same rational that the feds will one day completely ban hunting from federal lands. Don't forget that. The hunting industry is nothing compared to what the cattle industry used to be and as our numbers continue to wane, the political price will be less and less and one day, it will be banned from federal lands.

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any of ya all that don't think the federal govt has not gone completely completely over the top on this case , I suggest you actually watch the video posted towards the start of this thread.........

a million dollar operation to gather 500 cows....?......come on...

and since when does a person get arrested for taking pics from a public right of way ?

welcome to the police state......

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Haven't there always been range wars because one bunch don't want another bunch using public land. Only difference is, this time one bunch is the Gov. miles


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I've not bothered to read this thread from end to end, but we need to recognize that public land grazing permits are a privilege and not an inalienable right. In pre-agency days, might did make right. The one that got there first with the most cattle, or the one that controlled water could and did dictate policy. Those days left though in the 1930's when the ranching communities were begging the government to do something about unregulated grazing. One could try to set aside or safe some forage for winter use, and one with no property at all could waltz in with a herd or band and ravage the ground. Select folks were thrown off the land then, and some select folks were allowed to stay.

Here in eastern Oregon probably 80% of our county is public land supporting the cattle industry. I fully back those grazing programs, feel they offer several benefits to the landscape and wildlife, and hope they will continue.

In this instance, however, when one is dealing with a T&E critter, some accomodations need to be made by both sides. Given time and patience, other permits will be available as they are abandoned by others and life could continue.

A long history on the land, however, often leads to the feeling that one rules that domain. I've known a rancher or two that actually buffaloed the public by physically posting 10 to 20 linear miles of public land. Just a year ago the wife and I went right through a no trespassing sign that I know full well from county records lead to nothing but public land.

One pretty much controls deeded land, but that's most certainly not the case with federal property. I'm sure this has been a long evolving issue and it's not a spur of the moment overnight taking. I'm sad for Mr. Bundy, his history, and his lifestyle, but I think he's been a bit inflexible and perhaps slow at moving into the modern world.

There are families within just a mile or so of my keyboard that rely heavily on public grazing lands. The progressive examples, however, are siezing every opportunity to acquire deeded lands sufficient to sustain their operation and lifestyle for their children and grandchildren. They fully realize that privileges can vaporize, and they may someday have to rely solely on deeded property.

Our public lands are indeed owned by the public, and the public's interest in their management is expanding every day. Cattle used to rule, but now hunters, fishermen, birdwatchers, hikers, bikers, wild horse lovers, miners, enviros, and little old ladies that read National Geographic are all realizing they have a say in management. The times are a changing.

Last edited by 1minute; 04/08/14.

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Why in the hell would I, as a member of the public, have as great an interest in a piece of land in Nevada as someone who actually lives in Nevada does?

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Why in the hell would I, as a member of the public, have as great an interest in a piece of land in Nevada as someone who actually lives in Nevada does


Maybe for the same reason that I don't support the Pebble Mine development in Alaska. I may or may not ever hunt or fish there again, but I'd like to know that some day I just might.


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Originally Posted by 1minute
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Why in the hell would I, as a member of the public, have as great an interest in a piece of land in Nevada as someone who actually lives in Nevada does


Maybe for the same reason that I don't support the Pebble Mine development in Alaska. I may or may not ever hunt or fish there again, but I'd like to know that some day I just might.


So, you consider the fact that you MIGHT hunt and/or fish there again of greater importance than the economic well being of those who live there? That is in essence what you are saying.

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Our public lands are indeed owned by the public, and the public's interest in their management is expanding every day.


Well, what happens when the greenies shut down all public lands to hunting and shooting? shocked

Is someone going to stand up then?

Will you silently comply?

The liberals believe that the second amendment is antiquated. They say the Constitution is an evolving document, and the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply any more.

When they "evolve" that amendment to 'best serve the public interests', will you take a stand then?

Just because some politicians make a law, it doesn't make it "right".


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That is the thing I don't get. Hunting is the next target. The people in charge of BLM lands really don't want ANYBODY out there. Lots of them would like to see it a nature preserve with no one being allowed in, EVER. But, they'll pick the easy targets first on their way to getting there and hunters will be the next targets. Hide and watch.

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Good friggin' grief.


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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