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All the deeded, leased, private vs public BS aside, it amazes me everyone is missing the big picture.

While everybody is on their soap box about some producer stealing from their public land,(even though they will never lay eyes on it) another group of the likes of Defenders of Wildlife is able to push their agenda and dictate the use.


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Originally Posted by Crockettnj
So, he doesnt own the land, his family hasnt paid for it, they used to use it for quite some time, now the owner or new manager (BLM) doesnt want him to use it, and he wont stop?

Freestuffer.




It was my understanding he WAS paying his fees until the .gov wanted him to remove the cattle so the desert tortoise could have the land. .gov pulled his permits I assume for various reasons. I seem to recall there were 25 other ranches in the same area 20 years ago and the feds have chased all out but him and he says he won't go. He is the last. kwg


For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Originally Posted by ltppowell
I stand corrected. Nobody owns anything.


That is pretty much the truth of it.

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Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by ltppowell
I stand corrected. Nobody owns anything.


That is pretty much the truth of it.


Wellfuck,thatswhygodmadetequila.


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Originally Posted by gonehuntin
http://www.militianews.com/police-state-ussa-feds-vs-rancher-face/

One freedom at a time, one right at a time, one battle at a time, we the people are losing each and every one of our liberties to federal authorities, and will continue to do so until we stand up against them together.

The story below is yet another example of the police state USSA in action.

Once again a situation where federal authorities arbitrarily change laws and rules and just expect the general public to blindly follow those rules.

Well one man, a rancher by the name of Cliven Bundy, has refused and does not recognize any federal authority over the land and now dozens of armed federal officers, rangers and agents, are preparing a showdown with this one older gentleman you will see in the video below.

To understand the principle Bundy is fighting for, one has to know that Mr. Bundy�s forefathers have been up and down that area since 1877, yet in 1993 the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) decided to change the grazing rules for Gold Butte to protect the endangered desert tortoise, an area Bundy and his family had been using since before the BLM even existed.

Bundy�s message is simple: �This has become a police state, and this is an example of it right here.�



The example he talks about is how the Feds have set up a �free speech zone� in the area, a media zone and have created a wall of agents to prevent the general public from entering a 600,000-acre section of �public land,� as they prepare to round up Bundy�s cattle and sell it off.

�With all these rangers and all this force that is out here, they are only after one man right now. They are after Cliven Bundy. Whether they want to incarcerate me or whether they want to shoot me in the back, they are after me. But that is not all that is at stake here. Your liberty and freedom is at stake,� Bundy said.

Bundy continues on to tell reporters �My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed.�

He has fought this battle politically, legally and through the media, he says, his neighbors support him, and he vows he will �fight it on the ground if I have to.�

One man is standing up for not only his rights, but for freedom and liberty�� who will stand with him?


http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/militias-route-bunkerville-nv-will-start-2nd-american-revolution/

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I have no idea which side here is "legally" right but I do know this administration and any more, the government overall. So with that said, I have to automatically come down on the side of the landowner and the state of Nevada.

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1minute-
You are mostly right, but I wanted to correct a few details. BLM grazing permits, or more accurately preference, can be marketed independently of the base property. This is a common practice. The buyer of the preference must meet the requirements of holding a grazing permit and one of those is base property. The preference is easily, and often, transferred from one base property to the next. Some permittees transfer their permits between different properties they own or they can be transferred to the property owned by someone else. It's a bit different for USFS grazing permits as they are tied to the livestock herd and not to property IIRC.

Similarly, the base property no longer has to provide the forage to feed the livestock for the time they are not permitted on BLM lands. The basic reasoning for this is twofold; 1. feed can be hauled to the livestock even if they are on a parking lot and 2. the act of calculating forage production on private property by the BLM had the ability to affect a property's value. So, yes, base property is still required to hold a BLM grazing permit, but it no longer has to be reciprocal.

Permits can be taken away for non-use if that occurs, without BLM approval, for I think 3 years. However, if non-use is approved by the authorized officer it can go on for a long time! The Grand Canyon Trusts has held permits for a long time that they make no use of, but since it's been approved they still hold the permit. Any amount of non-use can be applied for by anyone else meeting the requirements of holding a grazing permit, though this is very rarely granted.

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Originally Posted by SLM
All the deeded, leased, private vs public BS aside, it amazes me everyone is missing the big picture.

While everybody is on their soap box about some producer stealing from their public land,(even though they will never lay eyes on it) another group of the likes of Defenders of Wildlife is able to push their agenda and dictate the use.



Yessir.

I have repeatedly made that point. As long as it isn't THEM in their sights....

Trouble is, that really IS all of us in their sights. It just hasn't sunk in yet. wink


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Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Originally Posted by SLM
All the deeded, leased, private vs public BS aside, it amazes me everyone is missing the big picture.

While everybody is on their soap box about some producer stealing from their public land,(even though they will never lay eyes on it) another group of the likes of Defenders of Wildlife is able to push their agenda and dictate the use.


Yessir.

I have repeatedly made that point. As long as it isn't THEM in their sights....

Trouble is, that really IS all of us in their sights. It just hasn't sunk in yet. wink
When .gov wants to make a point or an example of somebody, they are careful to go against somebody that is flawed in the public's eyes. Somebody who they can paint as a villain. People love to point fingers at the other guy's guilt. "Oh, this guy wasn't paying for some permit, [bleep] him." Then it's off to work so they can tread water one more day or back to the regularly scheduled foosball game. "Randy Weaver was a racist." Etc.

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Bear in mind I'm not accusing him of this but just for the sake of making the point...Randy Weaver may have been a racist. That said, we KNOW the government is a murderer.

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Originally Posted by SLM
When ever this type of issue comes up, the East/West divide becomes clearer.
So, which side of that divide do you put me on? wink

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Originally Posted by pointer
Originally Posted by SLM
When ever this type of issue comes up, the East/West divide becomes clearer.
So, which side of that divide do you put me on? wink
Personally I was wondering how somebody from Indiana knew so much about western grazing permits.

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I think he may have once been a BLM Brownshirt.......GRIN......

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Originally Posted by kwg020

It was my understanding he WAS paying his fees until the .gov wanted him to remove the cattle so the desert tortoise could have the land. .gov pulled his permits I assume for various reasons. I seem to recall there were 25 other ranches in the same area 20 years ago and the feds have chased all out but him and he says he won't go. He is the last. kwg
Ultimately, the elite believe that it's ecologically "unsustainable" for common folks to eat beef, and want to make it the food only of the very wealthy, thus the efforts to damage the beef industry.

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Originally Posted by 308ragincajun
Actually, the United States 'owned" Nevada, California, Arizona, & New Mexico since 1848, when they paid $15,000,000 for it in the Treaty of Guadelupe-Hidalgo, after we whipped Mexico's ass in the Mexican War. It was incorporated into the Territory of Utah in 1851 and became the Territory of Nevada in 1861. The concept of Federally owned land is not a new one, and the Feds did not just sneak into Nevada and steal it. They've probably owned it since 1848.
~snip~ ...If you study the history of the cattle in the West, Ranchers have been required to pay grazing fees to graze on Federal land gong back to the beginning of the cattle industry in this country.


Very interesting post 308rajincajun. Very interesting. And it gets to an issue that is VERY rarely discussed when American history comes up: How did ownership of land in the US come about. IOW who was allowed to purchase or was granted ownership of lands that had never been "owned".

We have a myth in our shared history that says "Well settlers moved in and took it a quarter section at a time!"

Sometimes that is true and sometimes it is not. Some of the ways land rights have been granted is very unsavory. Criminal even. And it has been contentious from day one. Hell, Davy Crockett himself lost his seat in congress (for the most part) by taking on very powerful forces that were guiding land rights allocation in ways he thought were unethical.

But some here are right, we easterners probably don't understand the mindset of those who are up in arms over this.

Will


Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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I can't find the story because the search engines are all clogged up with all the controversy surrounding BLM going on in more recent times, but there is a story about BLM and the ranchers...

If I remember the story correctly, years ago, the BLM was defunded by the government. (I think it was the General Land Office then, and not BLM.) Anyway, the ranchers and the agency had close working relationships and had formed alliances and friendships. They helped each other.

When the government de-funded the agency, they sent out termination notices to all the employees. They fired them. Many of the agency employees had families to feed, and had nowhere to turn.

The ranchers came together and organized a fund that pretty much every rancher contributed to, that allowed the BLM to keep working, and feed their families. This support rally went on for awhile until the government created a new agency and put the government employees back to work within the scope of duties they were supposed to be doing.

The BLM employees were very grateful to the ranchers, and pledged that they would support the ranchers and help them as long as the agency existed.



My how times change. frown

If anyone can find that historical story, I would much appreciate a link.

Thanks


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Originally Posted by huntsman22
I think he may have once been a BLM Brownshirt.......GRIN......
You kinda wrong. I never wore a brownshirt to work as I found white to be cooler. wink

Ethan- I was born/raised in Indiana and live there now. I didn't always. See above. It can be helpful not to appear to know what you know.

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Seems to be folks are all focusing on the cows and turtles.

Spending 3 million to recover a 1.1 million debt of fees and fines doesn't make any sense...

Spending 3 million to clear the way for opening the land for shale oil and natural gas exploration and the feds being in talks with companies out of Texas for leasing mineral rights makes things a bit more clear.

In either case the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

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Originally Posted by big drift
Seems to be folks are all focusing on the cows and turtles.

Spending 3 million to recover a 1.1 million debt of fees and fines doesn't make any sense...

Spending 3 million to clear the way for opening the land for shale oil and natural gas exploration and the feds being in talks with companies out of Texas for leasing mineral rights makes things a bit more clear.

In either case the whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Damn!

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