|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,601
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,601 |
I can be very wrong but I thought the original parent cases back in the 1890's were extremely similar if not the same. But the 7.9 x 57 (8 x 57) case evolved to its present form sometime in the interwar years. As a result of not only projectile diameter difference but also bullet weight and material conservation. Like war effort. The cartridge definitely went thru an evolution period. Think Olson hit on some of this in his Mauser book. Don't remember it all. Have destroyed considerable brain cells since I last read it!  Good luck in your endeavor!
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,614
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,614 |
Prepare to swoon: An 8x57 necked to 7mm Ackley tight neck fast twist heavy bullet 1000-yard one-holer.
Did I miss any fads? The most important. Has to be a 6.5/.264 dia bullet.
“When Tyranny becomes Law, Rebellion becomes Duty”
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version)
"And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,622
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,622 |
Why not a 284win with a capacity of ~66 grains?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,844
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,844 |
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in some of these replies? Nah, couldn't be; it must be my imagination.
By my calculations, the 7mm/8mm Mauser (I just named it!) would have about the same capacity as the 7x57 Ackley Improved, or around 61.4 grs water. Contrast that with the standard 7x57 at 55.5 grs, and the 7mm/08 at 52.2 grs. That represents a 10% increase over the 7x57, and 17% increase over the 7-08. Help me out: If what you're proposing is virtually the same as the 7x57AI, then why wouldn't you just chamber a rifle in 7x57AI, use the 8x57 brass for forming (if need be), and be done with it? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to figure out what's new and improved over something virtually identical that already exists?
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,231
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,231 |
Necked up to a 327 
Its all right to be white!!
Stupidity left unattended will run rampant
Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 844
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 844 |
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in some of these replies? Nah, couldn't be; it must be my imagination.
By my calculations, the 7mm/8mm Mauser (I just named it!) would have about the same capacity as the 7x57 Ackley Improved, or around 61.4 grs water. Contrast that with the standard 7x57 at 55.5 grs, and the 7mm/08 at 52.2 grs. That represents a 10% increase over the 7x57, and 17% increase over the 7-08. Help me out: If what you're proposing is virtually the same as the 7x57AI, then why wouldn't you just chamber a rifle in 7x57AI, use the 8x57 brass for forming (if need be), and be done with it? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to figure out what's new and improved over something virtually identical that already exists? NIH!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,927
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,927 |
I can be very wrong but I thought the original parent cases back in the 1890's were extremely similar if not the same. But the 7.9 x 57 (8 x 57) case evolved to its present form sometime in the interwar years. As a result of not only projectile diameter difference but also bullet weight and material conservation. Like war effort. The cartridge definitely went thru an evolution period. Think Olson hit on some of this in his Mauser book. Don't remember it all. Have destroyed considerable brain cells since I last read it! Good luck in your endeavor! I think the case shape of the 8x57 stayed the same from the time of adoption to the present time. What changed was bullets. It went from a 236-grain round nose, to a 154-grain spitzer in 1905, to the famous 196-grain SS load of WW2. (SS in this case stands for schweres spitzgeschoss which translates to heavy pointed bullet.)
Keep your gun-hand ready and your eyes peeled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 13,065
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 13,065 |
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,601
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,601 |
I can be very wrong but I thought the original parent cases back in the 1890's were extremely similar if not the same. But the 7.9 x 57 (8 x 57) case evolved to its present form sometime in the interwar years. As a result of not only projectile diameter difference but also bullet weight and material conservation. Like war effort. The cartridge definitely went thru an evolution period. Think Olson hit on some of this in his Mauser book. Don't remember it all. Have destroyed considerable brain cells since I last read it! Good luck in your endeavor! I think the case shape of the 8x57 stayed the same from the time of adoption to the present time. What changed was bullets. It went from a 236-grain round nose, to a 154-grain spitzer in 1905, to the famous 196-grain SS load of WW2. (SS in this case stands for schweres spitzgeschoss which translates to heavy pointed bullet.) Bingo! That's it. The heavier bullet gave better performance at the longer ranges for LMG use! I also remember the dura-aluminum experiment for cases to be used on Zeppelins and such. Weren't too successful.
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,927
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,927 |
I can be very wrong but I thought the original parent cases back in the 1890's were extremely similar if not the same. But the 7.9 x 57 (8 x 57) case evolved to its present form sometime in the interwar years. As a result of not only projectile diameter difference but also bullet weight and material conservation. Like war effort. The cartridge definitely went thru an evolution period. Think Olson hit on some of this in his Mauser book. Don't remember it all. Have destroyed considerable brain cells since I last read it! Good luck in your endeavor! I think the case shape of the 8x57 stayed the same from the time of adoption to the present time. What changed was bullets. It went from a 236-grain round nose, to a 154-grain spitzer in 1905, to the famous 196-grain SS load of WW2. (SS in this case stands for schweres spitzgeschoss which translates to heavy pointed bullet.) Bingo! That's it. The heavier bullet gave better performance at the longer ranges for LMG use! I also remember the dura-aluminum experiment for cases to be used on Zeppelins and such. Weren't too successful. There was also a schweres Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern. I.E. Heavy pointed bullet with iron core. I'm not sure if this bullet was manufactured as an armor-piercing round or if Germany was running short on lead, maybe both.
Keep your gun-hand ready and your eyes peeled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,950
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,950 |
7x8x57 7-8mm 7mm-8mm 7/8mm 7-8x57 7/8x57 It sounds like a great round any way you spell it!
Our God reigns.
Harrumph!!!
I often use quick reply. My posts are not directed toward any specific person unless I mention them by name.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
There was also a schweres Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern. I.E. Heavy pointed bullet with iron core. I'm not sure if this bullet was manufactured as an armor-piercing round or if Germany was running short on lead, maybe both.
That is an angle I had not considered before, if lead is too toxic to use in projectiles for hunting, why isn't Europe a desert?
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 757
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 757 |
Not meaning to HiJack the thread.....What would you call the 7x57 necked up to 8mm ????
Hang on tight !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,950
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,950 |
Not meaning to HiJack the thread.....What would you call the 7x57 necked up to 8mm ???? 8x7x57 8-7mm 8mm-7mm 8/7mm 8-7x57 8/7x57
Our God reigns.
Harrumph!!!
I often use quick reply. My posts are not directed toward any specific person unless I mention them by name.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 340
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 340 |
Reading this thread made me curious. So I measured some case capacities using demineralized water. I didn't have 8x57 and 7x57 that were the same brand so the results don't mean much but are still interesting. I guess if you're looking for small gains in case capacity, case brand might be the place to look instead of changing case shape.
Winchester 8x57mm = 60.8 grains
Remington 7x57mm = 56.6 grains
Privi 7x57mm = 60.3 grains
Measured on Ohaus explorer Pro E2102C
"He is one of the Legion lost."
"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs, and rat- catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,683
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,683 |
rifle loonies do some strange stuff, just because they want to try it. I don't see the reason to beat 'em up for it though.
Sam......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,083
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,083 |
Yep! A fellow up here barrelled up a silhouette rifle to 6.5 on the 8x57 case. No changes other than reducing the neck diameter. Spent a lot of dough on the reamer and dies. A few guys wanted to know why he didn't just use the 6.5x55 case, as the case capacity was almost identical? He told them he did it just because he wanted to..... He won no small numbers of matches using it, too. Ted
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 666
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 666 |
On the 8mm bullet weights: Years back I used a new surplus MG-34 8x57 barrel on a sporter I was putting together. I had to go over 200 grains to get any accuracy out of it. Even 180 range bullets shot terrible. Anybody know if twist rates were different in those barrels?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 509
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 509 |
There was also a schweres Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern. I.E. Heavy pointed bullet with iron core. I'm not sure if this bullet was manufactured as an armor-piercing round or if Germany was running short on lead, maybe both.
That is an angle I had not considered before, if lead is too toxic to use in projectiles for hunting, why isn't Europe a desert? Because very, very few Europeans think like Californian law makers.
Last edited by johnfox; 04/25/14.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 844
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 844 |
rifle loonies do some strange stuff, just because they want to try it. I don't see the reason to beat 'em up for it though. Oh, I don't know. Being called a fool because you ask a question isn't really so bad! 
|
|
|
|
|
211 members (19rabbit52, 270winchester, 16penny, 17CalFan, 10gaugemag, 1_deuce, 31 invisible),
2,112
guests, and
958
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,172
Posts18,465,368
Members73,925
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
