Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 458 x 1.8" for Michigan deer hunting in Zone 3

Hopefully for this fall Michigan deerhunters will be allowed to use rifles in Zone 3 also known a the shotgun zone. In years past you could use any shotgun, muzzleloader 44 caliber or larges with blackpowder or a blackpowder substitute or handguns.

Michigan Senate bill 775 has been introduced to allow the following cartridges to be used in our Zone III for deer: A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches.

I thought of taking one of the H&H based belted magnums cut to 1.8" seating 458 bullet like Hornady 250gr. Mono-Flex. I could use a set of 458 WM dies. Maybe use a powder like Lil'Gun.

Or the 450Marlin cut to 1.8 and set the bullet to full length. That the route I plan to try. My 450Marlin bolt gun was never in scribed on the barrel if I have it done will go with 450marin 1.8. The worse thing that I think will happen is I have clean the chamber more often. Clint

A common big-bore wildcat back in the 1960s and '70s was the .458 American, a 2" .458 Win Mag case that was a kind of ".45-70 for bolt guns." Some were made on Pattern 14 Enfield actions, which were very cheap back then. A 1.8" version should work just as well.

Back issues of "Handloader" magazine should have old loading data, and some of those powders are still with us.

I too have been toying with this idea. At first blush I thought the 458x1.80 would be slick because it could be made to feed in a bolt gun much more easily than the .460 S&W. The potential problem arises when one considers the possibility of an uninformed individual chambering the cartridge in one of the H&H based smaller bores. I suspect the bolt could close and then it would become very dangerous.

I then revised my thinking to Clint's idea of a short 450 Marlin. Due to the belt shape there would be no danger from chambering in the wrong rifle.

My great concern here is lack of availability of brass. Do I want to dump a significant amount of $ into a custom rifle for which I am unable to purchase or form brass?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 450 Marlin brass cannot be formed from anything else; and isn't the cartridge on life support?

405wcf

Wonder how accurate my 458WM would be with the casings cut down to 1.8 inches and the bullet crimped out a bit further?Be a lot of free bore.

If you're going straightwall with a shortened H&H case, you can make a .475" Wouldn't be any problems with the ammo being run into a full length mag chamber.

Just how many brass will you need for a rifle that is just for zone 3? I have shoot my a marlin bolt gun close to 700 times and am still using the first 80 brass. With that in mind I have a 100 new brass setting on the shelve. If I trim some that will be the Hornady brass that they use for there flex tip as it is al ready short. 405wfc if you go with a 450 Marlin I have the reamer if you need it. Clint

I thought it had to be a pistol cartridge, with the a fore mentioned criteria.

How many uninformed people shoot your ammo?

You would need to inside ream the brass to seat a 475 bullet...also the choice of 475 bullets in lightweight pointed are non existent...my idea is for a cartridge that is accurate yet able to take a 200 yard shot across a bean or corn field with minimum drop.

450 Marlin brass has a larger belt on it so it will not chamber in a 7mm-300-338-458 ect. gun....I think a 458 WM if cut to 2.1" would chamber.

If somebody is so dumb that looking at a short fat cartridge thinking a big fat bullet is going to go down a 264-7mm-300-338 hole in the barrel they should be removed from the gene pool.

How about use 460 Smith and Wesson pistol brass, and a 452 size bullet with BP or a moderate smokeless load?

It's already 1.8"

A 460 S&W would be a option in a single shot like a Ruger #1 or a T-C Encore one thing with a 452 bullets there is only one bullet that is available that is pointed for a higher ballistic coefficient....with a 458x1.8" there are at least 3 different pointed bullets available and are designed for higher velocity....I don't want anything moderate if there's a large farmland buck walking along the fence row 200 yards away I want to use the flattest shooting legal cartridge I can.

Coyote Whacker, I sent a "care Package" of my 44-356BB wildcat cases, and bullets back to Indiana, for someone on a different forum. Mine are 51mm long, and I trimmed back ten for him at 1.8 inches. Mine will run through a Win. Post 64, top ejector M-94 carbine. By setting out his bullets he can duplicate my ballistics, or seat deeper and lose a fraction.

These cases are semi rimmed, 308's. You could use them in any cheap bolt gun made for a 30-30 win. Or you could tune a bolt action for them, something like a 225 Win. or the 220 Swift.

So if anyone with a real need is interested, P.M. me. Note; recoil in my light, little carbine is the limiting factor. The 265gr. Gummie Tips are H#$l on wheels, out to 200 yards. I'm starting them out at 1830 fps., from a 1 in 20 twist barrel.

So their angular velocities are more than the hotter 444 Marlin Evolutions produce, when shot out of an original 444 Marlin rifle. In addition to these Gummie Tips, I cast a custom 316 gr. G.C. slug, from old Lyman #2 alloy, tailored for the short throats made by a 444 Reamer. We short chambered with one of these reamers, in a re-bored 30-30 barrel. This carbine now balances just like a Win. M-92 round barrel carbine.

The trick here is to use the Guide rails, and carrier, from the 307 BB microfiche page, at the Browning warehouse in Arnold, MO. These and a bit of "influencing" the mag tube towards the loading gate will let you use the 307 based 44 caliber cases.

I worked up to over 1600 fps, before I discovered the Hornady Flex Tips. In the 1.8 inch case, you would crimp them into their smaller rear cannelure, but you would probably need my 51mm deep chamber, as their noses would generate the same C.O.A.L. as my 44 Marsh Wildcat's.

Any straight shank jacketed bullets would need this air gap in front of the 444 Marlin's really short throat. Only the pointy Lever Evo Gummie Tips and my custom designed cast bullets will fit into these shorty throats, with full length cases. You might chamber to 52mm if your fish and game boys will measure your cases, and not your chambers.

Then at least you would have something properly chambered for the new shorter 444 Marlin Lever Evolution commercial cartridges. But I wouldn't leave this decision on measuring to any F&G agent, out in the field. Get the straight skinny down on paper, before your seasons ever start.

My very first starting work up loads were one or two grains of IMR 4227 over the Max. published loads for this bullet weight in a 44 Rem. Mag. rifle. To get top velocities, I've switched over to IMR 4198, after my lever started to break open with the higher loads of IMR 4227. These old 30-30's only have a 3/4'rs inch barrel shank, so I didn't want the hotter 444 Lever Evolution ammunition to go into my little Post 64,top ejector carbine.

In a way, this is a shame, because at 52mm depth, my chamber would then accept any of the longer straight sided Speer 44 bullets. With your 1.8 inch case limit, (45mm), using my 51mm deep chamber wouldn't let this evil happen in yours, either.

While it shouldn't change anything, I'll trim a few back and try them with some 275 gr. Speer Plated Jacket bullets, seated out, with new cannelures rolled in, lower down. My 44 Rem Mag. Hornady sleeved Seating die,(generic for .429") will seat and crimp any lengths of cases.

The forum member from Indiana is more interested in using these in a single shot rifle, so new crimping grooves aren't his big issue. In a bolt rifle, with a 52mm deep chamber, the accuracy of the new Hornady 444 Marlin Lever Evolutions, will be astounding. They advertise, using them in full depth 444 Marlin rifle chambers, for extended range shooting. Someone could set one of these later Marlin barrels back, (not micro-groove), and measure the increase in accuracy. I know that my correctly chambered 51mm 44-356Win.BB, is more accurate than I am, and I haven't even worked over its trigger pull.

This is why Winchester went to the 1 in 20 twists, in their later Model 92's, in 44WCF. The early M-92's were rifled for Black Powder loads, with their really slow twists.

Did anybody try cutting the 458 win cases down to 1.8 inches?
I live in zone 3 and had the same idea with trying that in my Whitworth.
If you cut over 5/8's of an inch off the Winchester case would you have to anneal the brass?
Would the loadings for the 450 Bushmaster be a good starting point?
The bullet could be seated out farther for more volume and the 458 has quite a bit higher working pressure
than the 450.
Would like to test it to see how accurate it would be.

Yep.

I cut down 7mm Remington cases to 1.8" and used 2 bullets.

350gn Barnes TSX seated to OAL of 2.784" using a Fed 215 Primer and 52gn of Rel 7 for 1874fps and an extreme spread of 13.
Same bullet over 52 grains of H 4198 and the Fed 215 primer to an OAL of 2.790" recorded 1784fps and an ES of "0".
Same bullet over 50 grains of H 4198 and changing the primer to the Fed 210 for an OAL of 2.979" )Note I was gradually seating out to lengthen the OAL for feeding purposes) gave 1821fps and an ES of 76.
All 3 loads shot 1 inch groups at 50 yards as I was looking for a tree stand load.

The other bullet I tried was the 405gn Remington bullet over 51gn of AA 2230 and the CCI 200 primer to an OAL of 2.551" where I recorded 1665fps so basically, the above is in 45/70 territory.
All loads shot in a Model 70 .458 Rifle and were mild with no pressure signed with any load.
That should give you a starting point.
John

Thanks
I'll cut down some 300 win cases instead of the 458's and give Rel 7 a try.

Did a little load work for the 458x1.8 Whitworth 458 Win Mag 24" barrel
Cut down some 300 Win Mag cases and trimmed to 1.79
350 TSX
CCI 250 primers
OAL 2.80
Taper crimp
RL-7
49gr-1810fps ES 51
50gr-1827fps ES 54
51gr-1884fps ES 17
52gr-1934fps ES 6
53gr-1977fps ES 22
54gr-2004fps ES 8
55gr-2025fps ES 17
56gr-2057fps
All grouped 3/8's or less at 50 yds
No signs of pressure,fairly mild shooting
Shells work good in the magazine and pick up and chamber smoothly.
May try to go another couple of grains of powder but the 56grs load is getting compressed pretty good
Should be a good 200 yard rifle with the 350 gr TSX
May try some 300 gr TSX but that is getting pretty light for caliber but would like to see the velocity on those.

Roc, This is interesting to me. I too live in Michigan and am trying to come up with a suitable rifle for deer. Currently I only have a 45 Colt Revolver which I successfully used this year on a doe but I would like to get a rifle for next year. I just learned about the Ruger American Ranch rifle chambered in 450 Bushmaster but your and AussieGunWriter's experiments are intriguing.

I have a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 currently with a 7mm Rem Mag barrel. I suppose to try your short 458 I would have to have it rebarreled.

I do wonder what a Wildlife Officer might say if they were unfamiliar with this cartridge. Will they have calipers with them to measure the case length? Your gun is likely chambered for 458 Win Mag, correct? As such would the Officer assume you are shooting an illegal cartridge?

rufous
Mine is chambered for 458 Win Mag
Reading the DNR website it says the CO's will be carrying a measuring tape to measure case length.
But it might just depend on which CO you happen to run into.He might just go by the spec's
of the cartridge.That would not be good.
I emailed the DNR to get an answer in writing to see if a 458 Win cut to 1.8 inches is legal.
That was two days ago haven't heard back yet.
Let you know if they get back with me.

You are good to go. Below is a corespondence I had with the MI DNR about cutting down .45-70 cases.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wanless, Thomas (DNR) (DNR) <WANLESSTmichigan.gov>

Subject: RE: rifle use

Mr. Mitchell:

Thank you for contacting the DNR.

As long has your firearm/ammo meets the parameters you have highlighted below you would be legal. I would ensure that you do not have any ammo on your person while hunting that your firearm is capable of shooting and does not meet those requirements.

Thank you,
Sgt. Thomas R. Wanless
DNR -Law Enforcement Division
Recreational Safety, Education and Enforcement Section
525 W. Allegan, Lansing, MI 48933
517-284-6026



To: DNR-Wildlife; DNR-LawEnforcement
Subject: rifle use

Sirs,

I hunt in the Limited Firearms Deer Zone and have a question as to the legality of a single shot rifle I own and would like to use during the firearms deer season. It is chambered for the .45-70 Gov't cartridge which, in its factory loaded form, has a case length of 2.1". However I reload my own cartridges and have cut the cases back to 1.79" which can safely be used in my rifle and conform with the regulations as printed in the 2014 Hunting and Trapping digest.
"• A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches."
I want to make sure that this is acceptable and I will not run afoul of law enforcement if checked in the field as long as I am using, and only in possession of, the 1.79" case cartridges.

Thank you,
Tom Mitchell