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Hopefully for this fall Michigan deerhunters will be allowed to use rifles in Zone 3 also known a the shotgun zone. In years past you could use any shotgun, muzzleloader 44 caliber or larges with blackpowder or a blackpowder substitute or handguns.

Michigan Senate bill 775 has been introduced to allow the following cartridges to be used in our Zone III for deer: A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches.

I thought of taking one of the H&H based belted magnums cut to 1.8" seating 458 bullet like Hornady 250gr. Mono-Flex. I could use a set of 458 WM dies. Maybe use a powder like Lil'Gun.

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Or the 450Marlin cut to 1.8 and set the bullet to full length. That the route I plan to try. My 450Marlin bolt gun was never in scribed on the barrel if I have it done will go with 450marin 1.8. The worse thing that I think will happen is I have clean the chamber more often. Clint


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A common big-bore wildcat back in the 1960s and '70s was the .458 American, a 2" .458 Win Mag case that was a kind of ".45-70 for bolt guns." Some were made on Pattern 14 Enfield actions, which were very cheap back then. A 1.8" version should work just as well.

Back issues of "Handloader" magazine should have old loading data, and some of those powders are still with us.


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I too have been toying with this idea. At first blush I thought the 458x1.80 would be slick because it could be made to feed in a bolt gun much more easily than the .460 S&W. The potential problem arises when one considers the possibility of an uninformed individual chambering the cartridge in one of the H&H based smaller bores. I suspect the bolt could close and then it would become very dangerous.

I then revised my thinking to Clint's idea of a short 450 Marlin. Due to the belt shape there would be no danger from chambering in the wrong rifle.

My great concern here is lack of availability of brass. Do I want to dump a significant amount of $ into a custom rifle for which I am unable to purchase or form brass?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 450 Marlin brass cannot be formed from anything else; and isn't the cartridge on life support?

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Wonder how accurate my 458WM would be with the casings cut down to 1.8 inches and the bullet crimped out a bit further?Be a lot of free bore.

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If you're going straightwall with a shortened H&H case, you can make a .475" shocked Wouldn't be any problems with the ammo being run into a full length mag chamber.

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Just how many brass will you need for a rifle that is just for zone 3? I have shoot my a marlin bolt gun close to 700 times and am still using the first 80 brass. With that in mind I have a 100 new brass setting on the shelve. If I trim some that will be the Hornady brass that they use for there flex tip as it is al ready short. 405wfc if you go with a 450 Marlin I have the reamer if you need it. Clint


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I thought it had to be a pistol cartridge, with the a fore mentioned criteria.


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Originally Posted by 405wcf
I too have been toying with this idea. At first blush I thought the 458x1.80 would be slick because it could be made to feed in a bolt gun much more easily than the .460 S&W. The potential problem arises when one considers the possibility of an uninformed individual chambering the cartridge in one of the H&H based smaller bores. I suspect the bolt could close and then it would become very dangerous.

I then revised my thinking to Clint's idea of a short 450 Marlin. Due to the belt shape there would be no danger from chambering in the wrong rifle.

My great concern here is lack of availability of brass. Do I want to dump a significant amount of $ into a custom rifle for which I am unable to purchase or form brass?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 450 Marlin brass cannot be formed from anything else; and isn't the cartridge on life support?

405wcf

How many uninformed people shoot your ammo?


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Originally Posted by 458 Lott
If you're going straightwall with a shortened H&H case, you can make a .475" shocked Wouldn't be any problems with the ammo being run into a full length mag chamber.


You would need to inside ream the brass to seat a 475 bullet...also the choice of 475 bullets in lightweight pointed are non existent...my idea is for a cartridge that is accurate yet able to take a 200 yard shot across a bean or corn field with minimum drop.

450 Marlin brass has a larger belt on it so it will not chamber in a 7mm-300-338-458 ect. gun....I think a 458 WM if cut to 2.1" would chamber.

If somebody is so dumb that looking at a short fat cartridge thinking a big fat bullet is going to go down a 264-7mm-300-338 hole in the barrel they should be removed from the gene pool.

Last edited by coyotewacker; 05/14/14.
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How about use 460 Smith and Wesson pistol brass, and a 452 size bullet with BP or a moderate smokeless load?

It's already 1.8"

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Originally Posted by RWE
How about use 460 Smith and Wesson pistol brass, and a 452 size bullet with BP or a moderate smokeless load?

It's already 1.8"


A 460 S&W would be a option in a single shot like a Ruger #1 or a T-C Encore one thing with a 452 bullets there is only one bullet that is available that is pointed for a higher ballistic coefficient....with a 458x1.8" there are at least 3 different pointed bullets available and are designed for higher velocity....I don't want anything moderate if there's a large farmland buck walking along the fence row 200 yards away I want to use the flattest shooting legal cartridge I can.

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Coyote Whacker, I sent a "care Package" of my 44-356BB wildcat cases, and bullets back to Indiana, for someone on a different forum. Mine are 51mm long, and I trimmed back ten for him at 1.8 inches. Mine will run through a Win. Post 64, top ejector M-94 carbine. By setting out his bullets he can duplicate my ballistics, or seat deeper and lose a fraction.

These cases are semi rimmed, 308's. You could use them in any cheap bolt gun made for a 30-30 win. Or you could tune a bolt action for them, something like a 225 Win. or the 220 Swift.

So if anyone with a real need is interested, P.M. me. Note; recoil in my light, little carbine is the limiting factor. The 265gr. Gummie Tips are H#$l on wheels, out to 200 yards. I'm starting them out at 1830 fps., from a 1 in 20 twist barrel.

So their angular velocities are more than the hotter 444 Marlin Evolutions produce, when shot out of an original 444 Marlin rifle. In addition to these Gummie Tips, I cast a custom 316 gr. G.C. slug, from old Lyman #2 alloy, tailored for the short throats made by a 444 Reamer. We short chambered with one of these reamers, in a re-bored 30-30 barrel. This carbine now balances just like a Win. M-92 round barrel carbine.

The trick here is to use the Guide rails, and carrier, from the 307 BB microfiche page, at the Browning warehouse in Arnold, MO. These and a bit of "influencing" the mag tube towards the loading gate will let you use the 307 based 44 caliber cases.

I worked up to over 1600 fps, before I discovered the Hornady Flex Tips. In the 1.8 inch case, you would crimp them into their smaller rear cannelure, but you would probably need my 51mm deep chamber, as their noses would generate the same C.O.A.L. as my 44 Marsh Wildcat's.

Any straight shank jacketed bullets would need this air gap in front of the 444 Marlin's really short throat. Only the pointy Lever Evo Gummie Tips and my custom designed cast bullets will fit into these shorty throats, with full length cases. You might chamber to 52mm if your fish and game boys will measure your cases, and not your chambers.

Then at least you would have something properly chambered for the new shorter 444 Marlin Lever Evolution commercial cartridges. But I wouldn't leave this decision on measuring to any F&G agent, out in the field. Get the straight skinny down on paper, before your seasons ever start.

My very first starting work up loads were one or two grains of IMR 4227 over the Max. published loads for this bullet weight in a 44 Rem. Mag. rifle. To get top velocities, I've switched over to IMR 4198, after my lever started to break open with the higher loads of IMR 4227. These old 30-30's only have a 3/4'rs inch barrel shank, so I didn't want the hotter 444 Lever Evolution ammunition to go into my little Post 64,top ejector carbine.

In a way, this is a shame, because at 52mm depth, my chamber would then accept any of the longer straight sided Speer 44 bullets. With your 1.8 inch case limit, (45mm), using my 51mm deep chamber wouldn't let this evil happen in yours, either.

While it shouldn't change anything, I'll trim a few back and try them with some 275 gr. Speer Plated Jacket bullets, seated out, with new cannelures rolled in, lower down. My 44 Rem Mag. Hornady sleeved Seating die,(generic for .429") will seat and crimp any lengths of cases.

The forum member from Indiana is more interested in using these in a single shot rifle, so new crimping grooves aren't his big issue. In a bolt rifle, with a 52mm deep chamber, the accuracy of the new Hornady 444 Marlin Lever Evolutions, will be astounding. They advertise, using them in full depth 444 Marlin rifle chambers, for extended range shooting. Someone could set one of these later Marlin barrels back, (not micro-groove), and measure the increase in accuracy. I know that my correctly chambered 51mm 44-356Win.BB, is more accurate than I am, and I haven't even worked over its trigger pull.

This is why Winchester went to the 1 in 20 twists, in their later Model 92's, in 44WCF. The early M-92's were rifled for Black Powder loads, with their really slow twists.

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Did anybody try cutting the 458 win cases down to 1.8 inches?
I live in zone 3 and had the same idea with trying that in my Whitworth.
If you cut over 5/8's of an inch off the Winchester case would you have to anneal the brass?
Would the loadings for the 450 Bushmaster be a good starting point?
The bullet could be seated out farther for more volume and the 458 has quite a bit higher working pressure
than the 450.
Would like to test it to see how accurate it would be.

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Originally Posted by Roc
Did anybody try cutting the 458 win cases down to 1.8 inches?
I live in zone 3 and had the same idea with trying that in my Whitworth.
If you cut over 5/8's of an inch off the Winchester case would you have to anneal the brass?
Would the loadings for the 450 Bushmaster be a good starting point?
The bullet could be seated out farther for more volume and the 458 has quite a bit higher working pressure
than the 450.
Would like to test it to see how accurate it would be.


Yep.

I cut down 7mm Remington cases to 1.8" and used 2 bullets.

350gn Barnes TSX seated to OAL of 2.784" using a Fed 215 Primer and 52gn of Rel 7 for 1874fps and an extreme spread of 13.
Same bullet over 52 grains of H 4198 and the Fed 215 primer to an OAL of 2.790" recorded 1784fps and an ES of "0".
Same bullet over 50 grains of H 4198 and changing the primer to the Fed 210 for an OAL of 2.979" )Note I was gradually seating out to lengthen the OAL for feeding purposes) gave 1821fps and an ES of 76.
All 3 loads shot 1 inch groups at 50 yards as I was looking for a tree stand load.

The other bullet I tried was the 405gn Remington bullet over 51gn of AA 2230 and the CCI 200 primer to an OAL of 2.551" where I recorded 1665fps so basically, the above is in 45/70 territory.
All loads shot in a Model 70 .458 Rifle and were mild with no pressure signed with any load.
That should give you a starting point.
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Thanks
I'll cut down some 300 win cases instead of the 458's and give Rel 7 a try.

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Did a little load work for the 458x1.8 Whitworth 458 Win Mag 24" barrel
Cut down some 300 Win Mag cases and trimmed to 1.79
350 TSX
CCI 250 primers
OAL 2.80
Taper crimp
RL-7
49gr-1810fps ES 51
50gr-1827fps ES 54
51gr-1884fps ES 17
52gr-1934fps ES 6
53gr-1977fps ES 22
54gr-2004fps ES 8
55gr-2025fps ES 17
56gr-2057fps
All grouped 3/8's or less at 50 yds
No signs of pressure,fairly mild shooting
Shells work good in the magazine and pick up and chamber smoothly.
May try to go another couple of grains of powder but the 56grs load is getting compressed pretty good
Should be a good 200 yard rifle with the 350 gr TSX
May try some 300 gr TSX but that is getting pretty light for caliber but would like to see the velocity on those.

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Roc, This is interesting to me. I too live in Michigan and am trying to come up with a suitable rifle for deer. Currently I only have a 45 Colt Revolver which I successfully used this year on a doe but I would like to get a rifle for next year. I just learned about the Ruger American Ranch rifle chambered in 450 Bushmaster but your and AussieGunWriter's experiments are intriguing.

I have a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 currently with a 7mm Rem Mag barrel. I suppose to try your short 458 I would have to have it rebarreled.

I do wonder what a Wildlife Officer might say if they were unfamiliar with this cartridge. Will they have calipers with them to measure the case length? Your gun is likely chambered for 458 Win Mag, correct? As such would the Officer assume you are shooting an illegal cartridge?

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Mine is chambered for 458 Win Mag
Reading the DNR website it says the CO's will be carrying a measuring tape to measure case length.
But it might just depend on which CO you happen to run into.He might just go by the spec's
of the cartridge.That would not be good.
I emailed the DNR to get an answer in writing to see if a 458 Win cut to 1.8 inches is legal.
That was two days ago haven't heard back yet.
Let you know if they get back with me.

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You are good to go. Below is a corespondence I had with the MI DNR about cutting down .45-70 cases.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wanless, Thomas (DNR) (DNR) <WANLESSTmichigan.gov>

Subject: RE: rifle use

Mr. Mitchell:

Thank you for contacting the DNR.

As long has your firearm/ammo meets the parameters you have highlighted below you would be legal. I would ensure that you do not have any ammo on your person while hunting that your firearm is capable of shooting and does not meet those requirements.

Thank you,
Sgt. Thomas R. Wanless
DNR -Law Enforcement Division
Recreational Safety, Education and Enforcement Section
525 W. Allegan, Lansing, MI 48933
517-284-6026



To: DNR-Wildlife; DNR-LawEnforcement
Subject: rifle use

Sirs,

I hunt in the Limited Firearms Deer Zone and have a question as to the legality of a single shot rifle I own and would like to use during the firearms deer season. It is chambered for the .45-70 Gov't cartridge which, in its factory loaded form, has a case length of 2.1". However I reload my own cartridges and have cut the cases back to 1.79" which can safely be used in my rifle and conform with the regulations as printed in the 2014 Hunting and Trapping digest.
"• A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches."
I want to make sure that this is acceptable and I will not run afoul of law enforcement if checked in the field as long as I am using, and only in possession of, the 1.79" case cartridges.

Thank you,
Tom Mitchell


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Great news. I have a Marlin 1895 SBL 45/70 so maybe I can just use it with shortened cases? However it seems to me that since the 45/70 is a tapered case when it is shortened the inside neck diameter would be too large to properly hold a 0.458" bullet.

Tmitch, please enlighten me. Are you simply firing these shortened cases in your standard 45/70? If so does it feed ok? What bullets are you using? What reloading dies are you using?

Can you provide any load data with velocity?

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I use them in my Ruger No. 1 .45-70. I use standard RCBS dies & seat bullets out to same OAL as 400 gr. factory load. I've used 400 gr & 350 gr Speer bullets. Seating the bullets out you have virtually the same powder capacity so I would think any book charges could be used. For my purposes, deer at 100 yds max, I don't have need to hot rod it so I use a mid range charge of 3130. Using it in a single shot I don't worry about a crimp, so not sure how well they'd hold up in a tube magazine. Being the same OAL they should feed okay.


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Thanks tmitch
Good,I didn't cut down 40 good cases for nothing.

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I did the same thing when planning a hunt in Indiana by contacting the DNR and printing out the email response approving the reloaded cartridge as compliant.
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For Michigan, "straight walled" is the key. You can't have a belted cartridge.

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Originally Posted by Tackdriver22250
For Michigan, "straight walled" is the key. You can't have a belted cartridge.



The case walls are straight and the belt only serves the same purpose as a rim, which is to head space the cartridge,

Last edited by jwp475; 12/23/17.


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We asked the question to the Michigan DNR about cutting down the 458 WM case down to 1.8 inches.
Their response was--
Yes,as long as you get the case down to the lawful limit,that would be permitted.

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Knew a guy that hunted with an XP 100 back in the 80's chambered in 458 X 1.5". It was a sledgehammer for the application he deployed it.

Can't help but wonder why not hunt with a 480 Ruger ?


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500 JRH or 475 Linebaugh in a rifle will produce about 1700 FPS with 425 grain hard cast bullet even faster with a lighter bullet. They are 1.4” cases or the 1.6” cases could be used, which in the case of the 50 cal would be the 500 S&W.



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Originally Posted by jwp475

500 JRH or 475 Linebaugh in a rifle will produce about 1700 FPS with 425 grain hard cast bullet even faster with a lighter bullet. They are 1.4” cases or the 1.6” cases could be used, which in the case of the 50 cal would be the 500 S&W.


Seems like an easy fix if you are buying a new gun anyway.


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Originally Posted by Tackdriver22250
For Michigan, "straight walled" is the key. You can't have a belted cartridge.


Well then you can't have a rim either...or a 450 Bushmaster its rebated....

All DNR cares about is 1.8" and minimum 35 caliber...

I'am having reamers being made for a (10 mm) .400" in a 240 Weatherby cut to 1.8".....Cutting Edge Bullets 165 gr. Maximus around 2500 fps....

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Originally Posted by coyotewacker
[quote=Tackdriver22250]

I'am having reamers being made for a (10 mm) .400" in a 240 Weatherby cut to 1.8".....Cutting Edge Bullets 165 gr. Maximus around 2500 fps....

10mm Maximum that sounds like a good way to go.
Would like to here how that turns out.
Got my 458x1.8 tuned in.
57Gr of RL-7
OAL 2.80
350 Gr Barnes TSX FB
Shot two over the Chrony 2097 and 2096
Sighted at 150 yds
2" high at 100yds with a 7/8' group
2" low at 175 Yds with a 1 3/4 " group
4 1/2" low at 200 yds with a 3"group
Groups were only 2 shot.
Son in Law is going to use it for late doe season.

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Originally Posted by Roc
Originally Posted by coyotewacker
[quote=Tackdriver22250]

I'am having reamers being made for a (10 mm) .400" in a 240 Weatherby cut to 1.8".....Cutting Edge Bullets 165 gr. Maximus around 2500 fps....

10mm Maximum that sounds like a good way to go.
Would like to here how that turns out.
Got my 458x1.8 tuned in.
57Gr of RL-7
OAL 2.80
350 Gr Barnes TSX FB
Shot two over the Chrony 2097 and 2096
Sighted at 150 yds
2" high at 100yds with a 7/8' group
2" low at 175 Yds with a 1 3/4 " group
4 1/2" low at 200 yds with a 3"group
Groups were only 2 shot.
Son in Law is going to use it for late doe season.


I like your 458x1.8" was going to build one....its smart design for a straight wall cartridge using belt for head spacing.....

You should try some Cutting Edge Bullets .458 258 GR.SOCOM Brass Flat Base Raptor...they are deadly will shoot flatter and little less recoil they been used on a bunch of North American game and African up to cape buffalo ...Lil'Gun powder first choice second choice Enforcer should be a good powders close to a full case don't compress powder... seat bullet with two bands in case to get more capacity....should get close to 2400 fps....

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/452-258gr-flat-base-raptor

Also a great bullet Cutting Edge Bullets. 458 260gr Rifle Maximus

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/458-260gr-rifle-maximus-50ct

I shoot these for practice and plinking will shoot to the same point as the CEB 458 258 GR. SOCOM....Hornady 45 Cal .458 250 gr MonoFlex®...

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/45-cal-458-250-gr-monoflex#!/

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[quote=

You should try some Cutting Edge Bullets .458 258 GR.SOCOM Brass Flat Base Raptor...they are deadly will shoot flatter and little less recoil they been used on a bunch of North American game and African up to cape buffalo ...Lil'Gun powder first choice second choice Enforcer should be a good powders close to a full case don't compress powder... seat bullet with two bands in case to get more capacity....should get close to 2400 fps....

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/452-258gr-flat-base-raptor

Also a great bullet Cutting Edge Bullets. 458 260gr Rifle Maximus

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/458-260gr-rifle-maximus-50ct

[/quote]
Might give those a try.Looks like they would turn that into a 275 yd gun.

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I wanted to share here my efforts to use my 45/70 here in SW Michigan. As most of you probably know here in my part of MI if we want to use a "modern" firearm as opposed to shotgun or muzzle loader we are limited to using straight walled cases that are no longer than 1.8". I thought that ruled out my 45/70 which has a case length of 2.105" but found out that if I trim the cases back to 1.8" then I can use it. I was stoked to learn this.

I decided to initially see if I could get a suitable load developed using the Missouri Cast Bullets 405 grain coated bullet. Before moving to Michigan I had worked up several great loads with various bullets one of which was the Missouri coated cast 405 grain bullet using a full length case and 43 grains of H4198 and a CCI 200 primer which gave me 1600 fps. If I tried to get much over that velocity I would get terrible accuracy due to terrible leading. The coating they use apparently is not adequate for higher velocities.

With these shortened cases I figured I could load the bullet out long (that is not seat the bullet to the crimp groove but rather seat it to the grease groove closest to the crimp groove) which should reduce pressures somewhat. I had to buy a custom Lee Factory Crimp Die and have my sizing die shortened. Even though I loaded the bullet to crimp over what would normally be a grease groove instead of to the crimp groove I figured I would likely still need to reduce the powder charge. The loaded cartridge length is now 2.5" instead of 2.52" when loaded in a full length case to the crimp groove.

Initially with these shortened cases I tried 40 grains and then 38 grains and finally 37.3 grains. I think the 37.3 grain load will likely be the one I settle on. Velocity averaged 1480 fps.

I need to do a bit more shooting but so far it looks quite promising. Shooting from a standing position I had a sandbag placed on my fence rail to support the fore end and my shooting sticks supporting the buttstock and fired a 3 shot group at 55 yards. The group was horizontal with all bullets touching and measured 0.6" center to center. I think the deer are in trouble!

The gun is a Marlin 1895 SBL and I have a Leupold Vari X 2 2-7 scope with additional dots below the crosshair for further distance aim points. If zeroed at 100 yards I should be on at 125, 150 and 175 with the other aim points.

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Have you tried anything lighter than 400gr.?
300gr at 1600 fps. would work just fine even on the biggest bucks.
Rock on, but extra recoil stopped being fun a few years ago.
Don't get me wrong, I applaud you for your workaround to maintain legal and use a firearm you already owned.
I would have done this if I had a 45-70.

Since I didn't, the Ruger American Ranch in 450 Bushmaster was a cheap price for a rifle legal in the Zone I have hunting property.


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I had been shooting 405 grain bullets at 1900 fps so 1480 is a breeze. I know that I don't even need this heavy of a load for deer as I blew clear through a doe last fall with my Ruger 45 Colt revolver using a 290 grain Keith bullet at about 1100 fps, breaking a front leg bone in the process. Even so the accuracy is good and at that velocity when zeroed at 100 yards I should be on with my extra aim points on my scope at 125, 150 and 175 yards.

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I'd just run a 45 MZ with a long tube and use a dead center? 357 in a sabot... its easily good to 300 yards in a good gun. I don't see the short 458 being good that far...


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I had one of these 458x1.8 put together from parts i scrounged up. 325 Hornady Lipstick over 47 grains of Imr 4198 25 inch Shilen gave me 2120fps

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For all folks wanting an easy way out and planning on using a rifle/handgun for several years on deer I suggest a good 44 mag rifle 270 grain load. Easily will dispatch deer at similar ranges as 458 x 1.5 Frank Barnes. For those wanting to step it up and pretty much match 458 x 1.5 Frank Barnes power at similar range and have TC Encores and even Contenders can get barrel and load 275 Barnes bullets in the 475 Linebaugh. Out of an Encore 18"-20" your pushing 2,100 fps. Using 400 grain loads in a rifle you get around 1,650 fps. Both the Ruger No.1 and Big Horn Armory Model 89A lever-action rifle come in the 475 Linebaugh. Both are pricey, but if your dug into hunting that area for years, this is a heavy hitter setup that will easily get the job done. Linebaugh has a 1.6" case. Personally I think all these eastern dumb [bleep] game/committees that come up with this crap need to be tossed. What would be the difference in hunting straight wall 45-70, 444 Marlin, 450 Marlin, etc., in both range and penetration than the above Linebaugh loads or a 454 Casull in the woods of Michigan. For all intense purposes their allowing a handgun cartridge thinking its about 50 yards of effectiveness when in actuality out of a rifle its an easy 125 yards. Stupid stuff and a great deal of hoop jumping for nothing in return of any beneficial safety accomplishment. When hunting you can't fix stupid, you hope the responsibility of discharging a firearm is in the hands of a responsible person.

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Another Option:

For those with a Ruger 45-70 sitting around... I have been told (but haven't called them about it) that JES Reboring will bore out Ruger No.1's in 45-70 to 50-70 Govt.

The 50-70 case is 1.75 inches long.

Starline makes the brass, graf's also stocks it.

Jerry


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-70_Government

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=18&tocid=220

http://www.35caliber.com/8.html


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Originally Posted by jerrywoodswalker
Another Option:

For those with a Ruger 45-70 sitting around... I have been told (but haven't called them about it) that JES Reboring will bore out Ruger No.1's in 45-70 to 50-70 Govt.

The 50-70 case is 1.75 inches long.

Starline makes the brass, graf's also stocks it.

Jerry


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-70_Government

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=18&tocid=220

http://www.35caliber.com/8.html



Kinda brilliant. That would be fun to play with.


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Seriously, I've spent 1/4 the day looking for an 'inexpensive' 45/70 based on the 50/70 idea.


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And I don't even live in a screwed reg Yankee state.


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My brother uses a single shot in 500 S&W.He's taken a few deer with it in southern Michigan, really likes it.

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Originally Posted by jerrywoodswalker
Another Option:

For those with a Ruger 45-70 sitting around... I have been told (but haven't called them about it) that JES Reboring will bore out Ruger No.1's in 45-70 to 50-70 Govt.

The 50-70 case is 1.75 inches long.

Starline makes the brass, graf's also stocks it.

Jerry



OK I've got to eat crow here... I called JES Reboring

They told me that you would probably run into trouble with the rim diameter on the 50-70 Govt. in a Ruger No.1

He recommended going with a 50 Alaskan which has a smaller rim diameter.

Though the 50 Alaskan is a straight walled case... it probably will not work in the 'restricted' states as the case is 2.1 inches long.

50 Alaskan brass is available from Starline; https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/50-Alaskan-Brass/

Jerry


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It wouldn't be too much trouble to shorten a 50 Alaskan case to 1.8 and use 50-70 data.


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I am one of many Michigan deer hunters that have simultaneously thought of shortening a rifle cartridge to comply with the new relaxed rifle rules allowing deer hunting in the traditional "shotgun zone". I have a Marlin 45-70 w/micro groove rifling, 22" barrel. My thought is to modify the brass without modifying the rifle which I love to use in Michigan's U.P. during firearm deer season. To this end, I have procured some 45 Caliber Speer 400 gr. jacketed SPFN bullets w/dual cannelure that will allow the bullet to be crimped out to maintain close to factory COAL specs with the brass shortened to 1.8" Don't know if this modified cartridge would cycle in the unmodified model 1895 Marlin 45-70 or not but seems worth a try. To repeat, I have no interest in modifying the Marlin rifle because it will still be my "go to" rifle in the U.P. My problem is I cannot figure out a reasonable way to shorten the 45-70 brass to, say, 1.79" (to be on the safe side). I have made phone contact with the DNR office in Lansing, MI and, spoke w/the Lieutenant in charge who was VERY familiar with this concept. Never mind the "Gun Shop Commandos" who claim to know everything about this and say I will be arrested and rifle confiscated, the good Lieutenant assured me that the C.O.'s are knowledgeable and can determine if the modified ammo does comply with the new law or not. Just DO NOT have any factory ammo on your person. Common sense to me. I have many years of reloading rifle and pistol ammo, several thousand rounds/year; mostly pistol ammo for competition. I do not need to load a lot of this shortened 45-70 ammo; just enough to develop a load and sight the rifle in before shootin' season. One at a time by hand is plenty fast enough for me. One perfect solution seemed to be to see if I could special order a shortened RCBS case forming die. They refused for "legal and liability" reasons. No prob I thought just order a 45-70 case forming die and have a machinge shop grind it down to size. Again, no go for the same reasons. Is anyone on 24 Campfire able to give me a clue on how to proceed? Much obliged for any advise and thank you.

Gerry Donovan


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I don't quite get why you can't get that work done. The gun rags are full of stories about wildcat creations of all sorts. Those guys get custom dies to do whatever they want. Maybe a gunsmith would cut one down for you since he'd understand what you want to do.

If I had a good place to hunt in one of those zones, I'd just fork over $400-$500 bucks for a Henry Single Shot .44 or a .450 Bushmaster Ruger American.


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You don't need a special "case forming die" to resize the shortened cases, just run them through your standard sizing die.


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The long winded question was how to shorten the case, not resize it. I have never "wildcatted" a cartridge before, which is essentially what I wish to do with the 45-70 case. It needs to be shortened to 1.8" for this project. Looking for a reasonable and correct way to accomplish this. Thanks.


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I just used my Lyman case trimmer.


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Starline offers 45 Raptor brass IE 460 S&W rimless length 1.79 to 1.796 308 bolt face.

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Not trying to interfere with loonyism but the simple solution might be the .44 mag. I've been using one for quite a few years; 300 gr of paper patched lead and a full charge of Li'l Gun. MOA with a red dot sight and I'd not flinch if faced with a shot a couple hundred yards out there. MV runs 1580-1600.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Gerry1 get a lee case trimmer for the 45/70 have a machine shop cut the trim length stud to what you want

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There are quite a few options for the new 1.8” straight wall case law in Michigan. But my concern is if a chamber is not cut for a 1.8” case and is a standard 45-70 or say .444 marlin how is that different than having a duck plug that allows a 4 shell. I don’t trust our local officer would go along with as long as you don’t have factory ammo on you. I’m playing with a 444 case cut to 1.8 in a H&R to see how well it will work but don’t think I’m legal to hunt with the 444 marlin barrel with the shorter case.
I’m running 223 basic brass at 1.8” using.358 bullets. 2600 FPS with 180 gr. It’s a hammer.

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Hope you all realize the .45-70 case is tapered.


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True the O.D. of the case tapers but the brass thickness increases also, not at a 1:1 ratio, but trimming .3" doesn't cause much difference in I.D.. I seat the bullets to the same OAL as factory 405 gr softpoints. Since I use these in my Ruger No.1 I don't have to worry about a crimp, but I do run them back into the sizing die (with decapping pin removed) as kind of a taper crimp. Bullets are too tight to twist or pull with my fingers but I have not run any through my Marlin '95 so I can't vouch for whether they'll stand up to that abuse.


350gr left, factory 405 center, 400gr right.
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Originally Posted by DigitalDan
Hope you all realize the .45-70 case is tapered.

That is ok as well as a belt. As long as there is no bottle neck.

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Hey Fellers, thanks much for all the info and ideas. Had an epiphany and contacted LEE Precision, Inc via their web site. Turns out they will custom size their trim cutter to my specified length and send it to me. Total cost $23.32 to my mailbox. 8 week wait for this custom order. No prob and I am tickled to finally be on the way to completing this project. Hope it works; worst case scenario I am out $23.32 if it does not work in my Marlin 1895 Lever action. My back-up plan was to look for a .44 mag which would be an excellent idea anyway......


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Drill a hole in a piece of wood 1.9 inches long - trim thickness
Stick a case in.
Use any metal cutting device to cut it off. Watch that you don't cut the block.

Or, buy that trim die.
Using any grinder, grid the bottom until it's right.
Debut.

Or, since you aren't doing thousands.
Trim them.


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Lord knows I don't want to interrupt a loony's journey, but I'll throw this on the fire just for the helluva it.

Ruger 77/44 SS
+
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

=

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Works equally well on deer and hogs. The bullet above was recovered from a deer shot at about 80 yards. Broke the right foreleg and 2 ribs inbound, cut the heart in half and took out 3 ribs and the left foreleg on the other side. Found under the hide. 300 grains of pure lead patched with 9# onion skin, .030" card wad and 18 grains of Li'l Gun. Standard LPP. MV ~1600 fps


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I just ordered a new CVA Scout in 45-70 and am going to give this a whirl. I am looking to order a couple of different bullets to try, any good suggestions that haven’t been mentioned?

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One of my internet friends has one. [458x1.8] Very impressive loads. He uses Hornady brass and Hornady 458 dies.

My brother has a .452x1.8, he uses W/W 458 Win Brass shortened.

With a case full of H4198 it will send a 250 FTX at 2600 fps. Same load should work for a .458 Bullet.


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Old thread, yes, but it screams for a Shiloh Sharps 50-70, 475gr bullets over Black Powder and learning how to shoot the barrel sights will provide some cool hunting out to 250 yards.


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Originally Posted by gunner500
Old thread, yes, but it screams for a Shiloh Sharps 50-70, 475gr bullets over Black Powder and learning how to shoot the barrel sights will provide some cool hunting out to 250 yards.

I have a 500-70, based on a short 50-110 or a 50 Alaskan case. 1.8" Very powerful!!


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One way to come up with a "legal gun" for those states with such regulations is to modify a Mosin Nagant. Make an 11.63X45R.

What is that?

You chamber a 458 barrel for a 45-70 with the reamer ground to cut only 1.8" deep, and re-sharpened to give the same case mouth at 1.80" as it did at 2.10" . Reamer will cost about $185, and sometines you can get 2-3 men to all throw in for it, if everyone of them wants to have a gun.

You turn off about .030" from the rim diameter of the 45-70 cases and bevel like the rim on the 7.62X54R. One cut on a lathe per shell, takes about 10 seconds per shell to make from standard 45-70. Nothing needs to be done to the receiver or bolt The shortened shell is easy to make and feeds from the magazine of a Mosin Nagant with some easy modification to the box. Load any bullet from 300 to 500 grains and getting velocities over 1500 FPS is easy with a 400 grain. Accuracy is very good. You need a ring-crimper (like the old Lee-Loaders used,) but that is very easy and fast to make on a lathe. All the rest of the loading can be done is standard 45-70 dies and a 7.62X54R shell holder.

For me personally I would not see any real advantage for such a gun over a 44 mag for killing deer. But for those that may want to hunt moose, or even those that just like using powerful guns, the MN modification is not horribly expensive to do.

You can do only the gunsmithing above and the gun is not all that costly, or pull out the stops and use a side-mount scope, New bolt handle, Timney Trigger, new stock with fancy wood, classic sights, tip,cap, barrel banded swivel mount, and all the bells and whistles that you might get from a custom shop in Europe around 1910. So if it's a do-it-yourself job the cost can be as low as about $550 after you have the Mosin Nagant. And go clear up to about $1800-$2000 if you want something that looks like it was made for a sportsman in Austria in the years before WW1.

If the warden checks your gun you show him the cartridge and tell him it's an 11.63X45R. Then act as if you are surprised he has never heard of it. Heck everyone knows about the old classic 11.63X45R..................right?

laugh


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Originally Posted by BS2
Originally Posted by gunner500
Old thread, yes, but it screams for a Shiloh Sharps 50-70, 475gr bullets over Black Powder and learning how to shoot the barrel sights will provide some cool hunting out to 250 yards.

I have a 500-70, based on a short 50-110 or a 50 Alaskan case. 1.8" Very powerful!!


Nice! bet it's a fun one.


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Some of the load data that I have collected on the .458x1.8"......., 250gr Hornady GMX, 2650fps ...out of a 22" barrel. Not to shabby!

Like stated earlier, 2600 fps with a 250 FTX with the little brother, the .452x1.8" mag.

Both are impressive!


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Hell of a deal, that's some 300 yard hunting the way I math it. smile


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