Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Fliers!

Damn, I'm getting frustrated with my Ruger 77 .308, I love the fit, appearance and handling, it even shoots some excellent groups at times... 3 - 5 shots into 1/2"- 3/4"

But I'm also get fliers way too often, shooting a slow 10 shot string and 4 will go way off yonder, blowing the group to 2" to 3"
Then a 5 shot group may have three touching and 2 way off, in no particular pattern.

I've had practically everything done that you'd think would fix the problem;

Glass bedded. Free floated.
Receiver trued. Lugs lapped.
Re-crowned- target style.
Trigger job.

And still no change! Bloody hell it's getting frustrating!

I'm now at a loss, At the moment I'm thinking that perhaps it's the scope? Or just a bad barrel, even though it looks good, lapped, smooth, etc?

Are you hand loading for it?

RO

Figure out your routine when you get the good groups and try to repeat that. I think you are being overly critical of a 10 shot group that is 2-3 inches. See if you can find someone with a rest that all you have to do is pull the trigger and see what it does. Many times it is the loose nut on the end of the gun.

Yep, but I've been handloading for a long time, 20 years +
I weigh each load individually, etc. But I've only had this Ruger a year or so, and it's been much same from the first session.

I've had hopes for it for the ocassional hunter class comp. as well as informal practice and hunting. Oh well.

Sorry, I meant that the fliers can blow a 5 shot group out to 2''-3" inches - at times, strangely though, 10 shot groups usually aren't any worse than that.
But then, I don't have any interest in a rifle that can't put 5 shots into at least a minute of angle.

Try different loads and different bullets. You could also rebarrel the rifle. Fliers that can`t be explained, is often a sign that the barrels life has come to an end.

DBT, if you have a shooter-friend who is competent, have him shoot the rifle and see how it does for another seasoned shooter..
Any problems with wind when you are at the range?

Sounds like the loads have rec'd proper attention..for whatever they are in powder, bullet etc...

Have you run them over a chrono and determined the deviation in five to ten shot timed fire strings?Under 20fps deviations or better yet, single digit says the loads are pretty consistently crafted..

IF the problem shows with another shooter behind the scope, the load may be right on the edge of erratic..or as one poster suggested, the scope may be doing something froggy.
(do you have another scope to mount & try?)
Assume mount-bases are secure..

Hard to believe the barrel is shot out...
I have several rifles which are nearly 100 years old with literally thousands of rounds thru them and they still shoot MOA with proper ammo and when I consistently do my part..jim

I had a Ruger #1 in 25-06 bought new, that did the same thing. Tried all the usual remedies with no success. But I was using factory ammo. Changed to different premium stuff, still no success. I traded it, as I didn't want to foul up a shot on an antelope or deer, or possibly gut shoot/wound one.

Bearmgc, Your tale of the Ruger #1 sorta amazes me, considering how much the basic rifle costs..
Blaine posted the other day on his new Remington SUCKS and how disappointed he was with that rifle.
I read about 500-800.00 rifles that need upgraded safeties, bedding, trigger jobs, squareing of action-bolts...etc etc and have to wonder what ever happened to decent accurate out of the box rifles these days.
We're not talking about a 40.00 rifle from Western Auto here or used rifles that were cheaply made..Some of these are supposed to be pick of the litter American made firearms..
Winchester M70s ..
Why is this ? or is it one in 50,000 rifles which just didn't get the proper QC inspection? jim

DBT,
Have considered that your "Fliers" might not be fliers? Think of it this way, your fliers usually open up the group to what your ten shot group always is. If you look at a ten shot group and selectively pick out 3 or 5 holes you can make them say just about anything you want. You can find practically anything from a 1/2" group, to 2 touching and a flier that opens it up. You could pick out 3 that show your 3 " group too, but human nature won't allow that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> There's no flukes on 10 shot groups though, and I believe that your barrel's showing its true colors with the 3"er.
A bad scope could cause this and is easy to check. Just put a good one on and see what you get. It could just as easily be your barrel, and we all know the two cures for that. Dump it or change it.
Model70guy

I will agree with this one.....

No offense, as I am sure you are an outstanding marksman...

My 17 year old daughter is the best shot in the family. She can group her .243 to within 1/2 an inch at 200 yards with 5 shots.......and then get one that is 3 inches off of center.

I started watching her form and shooting technique. Occasionally, without her knowing she did it...she would slightly raise her head just prior to pulling the trigger.

If I made her concentrate on keeping her cheek tight to the stock, she can kill a quarter.

Wildernesshunter,
Your daughter either needs a new scope without a parallax problem or a AO. Slight shifts of eye position making a 3 inch difference at 200 yards is an equipment problem.

Thanks for the suggestions.
I took it back to the gunshop today, The resident gunsmith said he'd take it out for a try at a 100yds (they ony have a 25mtr. indoor range)

Damn frustrating, but hopefully we'll see what's what in the next few weeks.

Regards,
DBT

Check your bedding on the rifle.

Five shot groups is asking way too much out of a hunting rifle. What groups are you getting with just three? That is in my view a much better measure of effectiveness for a hunting rig. jorge

That's the puzzling thing, there seemed to be no pattern to it.
At times the first couple of shots would touch and the rest scatter, next time it'd be the opposite.
In frustration, I had fired 10 in quick succession and got a nice group with the last 4 shots and the barrel too hot to touch.
Go figure!
Well anyway,hopefully the gunsmith should sort it out in the next few weeks. So I'll come back to this thread when it's ready and post the report.

Bet ya got a batch of bad primers or that your case neck tension is varying alot. Sounds like the rifle is OK. I also find that loads with a high exit PSI are likely to do that on occasion. Some powder and bullet combo's are eratic.I use Neco software and look at exit pressures as well as spending a lot of time prepping cases. Most sweet spots on my benchrest rifles are way below max loads, if I'm looking for group. However there are so many variables. I find Varget powder to be quite a help.

DBT,

I've got to agree with Jorge on this one. The M77 is, after all, a hunting tool, not a BR race gun. Your marksmanship sounds to be about right, if you can turn in sub-MOA groups. Nonetheless, we all have to concede that the idiot behind the thing is the only true variable, once the load and rifle have been balanced.

Speaking with my engineer's hat on, you should not forget that a rifle barrel will act like a whip, when high velocity gas is passed through it. Essentially, the principle is that of the [bleep] (don't laugh) tube. That is why we all spend an eternity trying to find the mythical "sweetspot" during our load development, which effectively, allows us to attain parity of frequency - the standing wave theory. I've forgotten too much about 7th and 12th orders to be bothered anymore, but basically, every given solid will have a natural resonance. Thus, if the correct counter-frequency is applied, both objects will resonate in harmony - ergo, perfection.

That is all well and good, but we are talking about a manufactured product with inherent flaw, stress and tolerances. Thus said, whilst it is perfectly reasonable to refine the product by correcting and by diligent practice, improving the mechanical interfaces, it is still a tube. The gas travelling down it will have a profound effect, in terms of thermo-expansion and transient alteration of the macro-molecular structures within the steel. Mass will not change, but the molecular volume will. The crystalline structures of the steel are drawn apart and the inherent memory lost, as the molecules migrate to a new position in space. This is how steels are tempered, although the endothermic peak must be achieved to permit "re-crystallinity". Anyhoo, that is why you get flyers (shooter removed from the equation); too much heat and you get a banana.

My advice? Leave it a minute between shots, squeeze them off and use only 3-shots for a group (5 shots, if you shoot a Sako like me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

Here endeth the (free) lesson in metallurgy.

Regards,

Dr Jacobite

I agree with Jorge too. If you read hunting magazines, the gun writers always use 3 shot groups when they are testing new rifles. It is important to remember that hunting rifles are made to shoot one or two shots at the time, not five shot groups. Some rifles can shoot 5 shots with out a problem, and some won`t do that. Depends on the rifle. I have not this problem with my Sauer 202, but my uncle has a Steyer-Manlicher full stock that does not shoot to well when you shoot 4-5 shots or more at the time. But if the barrel used to shoot tight 5 shot groups, you shoul really have a look at the barrel, as it might be time to change it. But I think you could shoot about 10 000 rounds with a 308 before that is an issue. A friend did almost 15 000 before the barrel had to be changed. Lot`s of guys rebarrel their rifles far to early. I agree with changing barrels after 3000-5000 shots if the caliber is smaller than 7 mm, as they are harder to the barrel than larger ones.

Thist does not mean that you got a bad rifle. For hunting purposes where you shoot one or two shots on large targets at moderat range, it will do just fine. It is just irritating for the owner when he wants it to shoot tight 5 shot groups. Reduce to three shots and be happy with what you got.

I'd say check the rifle first. Ruger have a middle action screw. It needs to be finger tight only.
Check the scope rings. They need to be very snug.
Try a different scope. Scopes going bad sometimes do that.
When you handloaded for it, did you try different powder charges ? And different powders ?
Some factory ammo and some handloads will shoot 2-3 inch groups even in a fancy match barreled custom rifle. I know, I have two.
The .308 is, as a rule, not a tough round to find accurate loads for. I have a heavy barreled one that will shoot an inch group at 300 yds. with ammo it likes. It will shoot over 2.5 inches with ammo it doesn't like. E