24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
I have a new Marlin 336CB in 38-55.

I have read about the SAMMI ~30,000 CUP for the 38-55 Win.

I have also read about the ~50,000 CUP for the 375 Winchester.

I see that the 336 Marlin is chambered in BOTH 375 Win and 38-55 Win.

I know that there are older model rifles chambered in 38-55 Win and these older rifles may not have been designed to withstand 50,000 CUP.

I have read a few times where folks have stated they shoot 375 Win from their 38-55 Marlin 336.

I have talked with a gunsmith familiar with the 336 Marlin and was told the rifle is no different between the two chamberings.

I believe Marlin would default to the SAMMI (and legally safe) specification if I were to call them.

What is the consensus here, is it safe to shoot 375 Win ammunition in a new Marlin 336CB chambered for 38-55 Winchester??

BP-B2

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,298
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,298
Quote

I have read a few times where folks have stated they shoot 375 Win from their 38-55 Marlin 336.


There is a difference between the two chamberings. I have a .375 Winchester and my Father has a TC Encore in .38-55. We have shot both cartridges in the Encore with no indication of trouble.

To better understand why people get away with shooting the .375 in the older .38-55 rifles read Ken Waters Pet Loads article on the .375 - 1-79 and the Pet Loads-Update, 1-83. The .375 case is shorter by design. Pretty clever design thoughts went into this cartridge.


Slim
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 158
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 158
The Ken Waters article is pretty good. As I recall, he did just that, at least once.

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 178
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 178
Go ahead and shoot 375 factory ammo out of your 38-55 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />...cause you're just another accident waiting to happen <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />! And when it does you'll be one of those who'll sue Marlin... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

375 AMMO WAS NOT MENT OR DESIGNED FOR THE 38-55...
GET YOUR HEAD OUTTA YOUR BUTT <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> AND READ A RE-LOADING MANUAL...

Last edited by luckeme; 06/22/06.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 3,257
W
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
W
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 3,257
I'm not familiar with the 336CB, but if it's a full size 336 action I can't see any reason not to shoot the .375's through it. I'd ask over on the marlin site:

http://www.marlinowners.com/board/

The 336 cb could be a slimmed down version of the 336 action or barrel or have some other change that would make it unsuitable. However the marlin .375 was built on a plain vanilla 336 action.

Weagle

[Linked Image]

IC-A B3

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Quote
Go ahead and shoot 375 factory ammo out of your 38-55 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />...cause you're just another accident waiting to happen <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />! And when it does you'll be one of those who'll sue Marlin... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

375 AMMO WAS NOT MENT OR DESIGNED FOR THE 38-55...
GET YOUR HEAD OUTTA YOUR BUTT <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> AND READ A RE-LOADING MANUAL...



So I guess your answer is:

I don't have any direct experience with this but have you read your reloading manual?



Thanks.. !

Yes, I've read my reloading manuals and many articles about the 38-55 Win and the new Marlin and Winchester rifles chambered in 38-55 Win. While the 38-55 chambering is old and there were many rifle chambered for it originally there are now many new rifles being chambered for 38-55 Win.

I'd pretty much agree that sticking a 375 Win round in a vintage Marlin 38-55 chambered rifle would be a bad idea I can find a good bit of information stating that the NEW MARLIN 336 rifles in 38-55 are no different in strength to the NEW MARLIN rifles chambered in 375 Win. I have dies and reloading supplies for the 38-55 and intend to test loads to maximum SAAMI and perhaps beyond!


I'd prefer replies from folks with direct experience and knowledge.

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,004
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,004
Even if it's safe why would you want to? There is plenty of hot 38-55 ammo available and it's got to be a lot easier to find than 375 ammo.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
38-55 Ammo seems to be seasonal but where I am there seems to be a good deal of 375 Winchester ammo.

Also, the factory offerings of 38-55 (Winchester load) is pretty anemic (1300fps with a 255gr). The reload manuals show upwards of 1900fps with this bullet in the 38-55.

I intend to use this rifle for proper hunting, not cowboy plinking.


Factory 375 Win ammo should be in the 2200 fps range with a 220gr bulelt.

Last edited by DaveKing; 06/23/06.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,004
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,004
Dave you might want to check out the Buffalo Bore offerings for the 38-55. In "Cartridges of the World" The author indicates the 375 is 1/10" shorter than the 38-55 and that 375's should NEVER be fired in any rifle other than thoose specifically marked for it do to the higher pressure from the 375. If you do not have a copy of that book I can tell you the auther makes note of several rounds that are interchangable and can be fired in different chamberings however this is not one.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Buffalo Bore is out of brass for the 38-55 and is apparently waiting for Starline to come on-line with brass... no 38-55 ammunition available from them.

I have read several references that state the problems with interghanging 375 Win in 38-55 (also 41 Long Colt).

The SAAMI site has a chart of this data available on-line.

I take this data as conservative and offered with the understanding that there are many vintage pre-WWII rifles chambered in 38-55 that would not do well with high pressure.

I have spoken with a custom gun builder and have been assured that he can build a Marlin 336 chambered in either 375 Win or 38-55 Win on the same (any modern 336 Marlin) action. There is apparently no difference between the actions as he states.

I have read several post on various sites where folks mention that 375 Win can be fired from a 38-55 Marlin 336 (NEW RIFLE, not vintage) and other MODERN firearms chambered in 38-55 Win.

This is more of a curiousity with me as, as I have stated, I have reloading dies and components to make 38-55 Win ammunition to any level of pressure I desire.

IC-B B4

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,004
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,004
Dave the book I referenced is very clear that the 375 ammo should not be fired in any weapon except thoose chambered for the round. I understand where your coming from with the antique guns and that is often the case with lever gun ammo being loaded so mild however in "Cartridges of the World" they address that issue with the 375 as well and say something to the effect that using the 375 ammo in a vintage 38-55 would almost certainly result in dissaterous consequences. Hope that helps and it probably falls under the category of you might get lucky and you might have a big problem. Not worth the risk IMO. Try ordering the BB ammo from Cabelas. They have it cataloged and most likely in stock.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,103
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,103
This is one of the few points where I disagree with the estimable Mr Waters. I think it was pure stupidity to make a higher pressure round that's shorter than an otherwise identical low-pressure round.

It just invites an accident from some rube who believes if it chambers it must be safe. A lawsuit is inevitable.

One can buy a .375 and load it to any pressure level one desires. Dropping down in power is seldom a safety issue.

But trying to load a low-pressure round like the .38-55 with maximum charges, or -even worse- stuffing it with an entirely different cartridge just because it fits; well, that's just dumb.

Yes, I know that a recently made Marlin .38-55 is PROBABLY no different than a .375. But how can you be sure that the steel is the same, the heattreat is the same, the throat is the same, etc?

Can you fire a .375 in a .38-55? The correct answer is, yes.

Once.


Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,298
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,298
I thought this would be a simple little thread. Didn’t know there would “smiley faces.”
When we began a serious comparison of the various lever action rifle cartridges of approximately the same case capacity or velocity potential - .30-30AI, .307, .375, .356 and .444 - we found the difference between the .38-55 and the .375 Winchester to be interesting and a little confusing. We knew why Winchester had to make a different cartridge – all of the older (and perhaps weaker) rifles standing in closets. Winchester knew full well the .375 cartridge was going to end up in a .38-55 rifle sooner or later. Winchester could not make the .375 cartridge longer to prevent its chambering in the .38-55 and still be able to work it through the Model 94 action. By making the cartridge case shorter and reducing the bore diameter Winchester could be reasonably certain that firing a .375 Winchester cartridge in a .38-55 rifle would not result in a “serious” high pressure situation.
We fired the .375 Winchester in the .38-55 Encore as an experiment while looking at PRE dimensions for the various cartridges. Our very limited results indicate the 200-grain .375 Winchester factory loads PRE slightly exceeded the PRE of .38-55 handloads (using new, unfired brass and .375” diameter Sierra 200 grain bullets) with maximum published loads. The .375 Winchester PRE from cases fired in the .38-55 chamber were less than those of the same cartridges fired in the Winchester Model 94 Big Bore rifle.
This was nothing more than a quick look as you well know. The Encore is throated for bullets of .3785” to .379” diameter. The .375” diameter Sierras are a pretty loose fit in the throat. I don’t know how the bullets compare to one another for bearing surface.
Current Marlin .38-55 Cowboy rifles have a bore and throat suited for .379” bullets. .375 Winchester ammunition using the .375” diameter bullets are a loose fit in the throat and the bullet will let quite a bit of gas escape past the bullet as it travels down the bore. I am not advocating using .375 Winchester ammunition in .38-55 rifles and I don’t think Ken Waters intended that either. I am just saying that through some pretty interesting forethought on the part of Winchester doing so will probably not have catastrophic consequences. Someone from Winchester probably spent quite a bit of time figuring this out in an effort to produce a powerful new cartridge that would not act as a hand grenade when it was inadvertently fired in a .38-55 rifle.
While not part of the original question, I believe shooting a .375 Winchester cartridge in a modern .38-55 Cowboy rifle is a lot safer than the practice of using .38-55 brass to handload .375 Winchester cartridges in the hope the slightly greater case capacity will give higher velocity.
Due to comments in threads I have seen on other Forums I think DaveKing has asked a reasonable question.


Slim
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,707
J
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
J
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,707
Dave King,
Have you corresponded with Marlin about your plan or thots?
Disclaimers and risk management aside, they may have some insights for you..jim
PS:
I graduated from Damascus H.S in the 60's..Knew alot of the Kings family...
Our farm bordered one of the family King farms..(dairy)
Who was your Dad? jim

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
selsnslim

Thanks.. This is the best "makes sense" technical discussion I have seen on this item.


jin in Oregon

My dad was...... Mr. King...... my paternal grandfather was born young Mr. Roi. (Sorry... I couldn't help it.)

I get asked about my relationship to the local King clans often in these part. Truth is I'm a transplant here, retired from the U. S. Navy and stayed for a bit. I'm originally from Eau Claire, Wisconsin but haven't lived there since 1971.

Some of the old King farms are gone, the one on Hwy 27 several miles south of Damascus is gone...being developed... about a gazillion $500,000 homes.

Doug King on Kingstead Road where King's Valley Road intersects is still around.

My children graduated from Damascus High.




Back to the 375 Win and the 38-55 Win.

I didn't call Marlin as I thought it'd be a wasted effort... Canned message, liability etc.




I'm just gonna work up a load the old fashion way and keep pushing until something indicates stop. I've read where folks are using some pretty stiff loads in the 38-55 with the Barnes .377 and 38-55 brass... loads into the 375 Win range for sure.

I'll post my results should I happen to live through the experience.

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,707
J
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
J
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,707
Dave, Interesting..Hope you had no problems gettin' a loan at the Bank of Damascus back when..:)
Back when Merle King owned the farm neighboring ours on rt 27..
Our farm is pretty much still there..I think the Butlers bought it after the developers who bought it back when ran into planning & zoning issues..
Been years since I was back there as all the family is gone..
Have to try and make the 40 year class reunion perhaps..but time and distance aren't favorable..
Amazingly, 85% of the class still lives withing 70 miles of where they grew up..

Concerning your project, is the initial handload effort fireing a fireforming endeavor and do you begin with reduced loads to form the cases and then work up to spped? jim

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
jim in Oregon

Butlers own a pile of land across the street from the old King farm. Te pond is still there as are the farm buildings and abandon house. I suspect this will be the last year though. Tregoning farmed that land for years and he just passed-on last year now Roy Stanley farms it till the houses replace everything.

Yeah, I know about folks sticking close to home. Most of everyone I went to school with still live in the same place (town/city) back in Wisconsin.

The little Cedar Grove Store is still operating as is the gas station. Clarksburg is not recognizable even from what it was two years back. All new home, thousands of them and the roads are choked with folks that have no idea of driving on narrow farm roads - - - One lane??? What's that?

Butlers spent about a half a million on a fence around the orchard to keep the deer from killing the trees. The deer are doing well with all the crops and cultivated lawns and scrubs. I spend a good bit of my time shooting crop damage deer as do a lot of other folks.





Back to the rifle.

I have loads now with Reloder 7 and the Barnes .377 255gr. The max listed for the 38-55 is 27 grains of Re-7 (advertised as 1700+-fps). I've shot a few of the 27 grain and mic'd the bases then went to 28,29 and 30 without any increase in base size. I see one fella using 32gr of Re-7 and the 255. I have no giant interest in taking things to the extreme but I'd like to get 1900 to 2000fps or so and use this rifle for deer, bear and maybe an elk. It's just a diversion for me and next year I'll have a different rifle to use and play with for a year. I'll drag the Oehler out once I'm happy with a load and get the speed, I hate to shoot over a chronograph and chase speed.

The rifle is pretty good, I made a receiver peep sight for it down in my shop and it shoots under 2" or so at 100 yards now. I don't believe I'll shoot much past 150 or 200 yards or so.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
As promised (but not on the original theme).


Oehler chronograph @ ~10 feet
Marlin 336CB 24" barrel 38-55 Winchester

W-W Factory 255 grain load: (advertised as 1320fps)

6 shots: 1227fps,1344fps,1227fps,1238fps,1245fps,1265fps,1250fps,1245fps

Some case base diameters: .4166", .4165", .4166", .4150", .4163"
(2 differing lots of brass)

Reloder 7 powder
W-W Cases
Federal 210 primer
Barnes Originals 255gr .377"
Temp: 82 degrees


27 grains: 1685fps, 1740fps (listed as maximum load in the Barnes manual)
case base: .4174", .4168" (2 different brass lots)


29 grains: 1799fps, 1837fps
case base: .4176", .4174"

30 grains: 1869fps, 1842fps
case base: .4178", .4175"

31 grains: 1882fps, 1920fps There was a barely noticable stickiness in the lever extracting the 1920fps round.
case base: .4178", .4173"

Later I'll measure the cases (edited & done) but I believe I'll use about 30 grains for big animals and 27 for plinkers and deer. The factory loads are good for thin paper and small insects.

Last edited by DaveKing; 06/24/06.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,004
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,004
I'm suprised that the factory loads are that consistant and close to their advertised specs. How accurate was the 30 grain load?

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 929
Stetson

I blasted them all into the same target at 50 yards without much regard for making a tight group... It's just a big hole so there's no pulling out the 30 grain load.

This is a "by inches" rifle and I'd suspect (later to test) it'll shoot to 2" or so at 100 yards as it did with the 27 grain load. The receiver peep hole is ~.120" and I have a larger ~.180 for dark wood hunting.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  RickBin, SYSOP 

Link Copied to Clipboard
CTV-TRX
Who's Online Now
819 members (12344mag, 160user, 007FJ, 10ring1, 06hunter59, 1234, 86 invisible), 2,493 guests, and 1,312 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3-22

UDG-IP









Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2022 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.081s Queries: 14 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9468 MB (Peak: 1.1193 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2022-09-27 00:49:29 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS