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Dude270 Offline OP
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I finally caved in to a long time urge to own a 223 AI and now I am on the hunt for load data.

Any info on 50 to 75 grain bullets would be great.
I know a bunch of you guys are running 223 AIs so I'm looking forward to hearing from you all. Any other pointers about loading the round would be helpful too.

Also does anybody have a link to some of steve timm's writings about this round?

Thanks guys

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Cant speak for the 75s but my "go to" load for conventional 50-55 grainers is 28.0 Gr. IMR 4895 I shoot mainly 50 gr. Vmax and 55 gr. Hornady SP

My "go to" load for deer and the like is 28.5 Gr. H335 and a Barnes 55TTSX


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I was hoping you would chime in ingwe, who better to give advice than the man the round is named after wink.

Why do you not like H335 for the conventional bullets?

I seem to remember you posting that you liked your AI but probably wouldn't do another one. May I ask what you feel are the pros and cons of the round?

Thanks

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I use Benchmark for light bullets, but a whole bunch of other powders will work.

RE15 for heavies, but about anything in the RE15/Varget/4895 burn rate should work.

Schitcan the H335, it's terribly temp sensitive stuff.

Straight 223s from here on for me. The 223 AI is fine, but it doesn't gain much over the parent cartridge, doesn't feed as well, and is generally a bunch of extra expense for not much gain.

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Originally Posted by Dude270
I was hoping you would chime in ingwe, who better to give advice than the man the round is named after wink.

Why do you not like H335 for the conventional bullets?

I seem to remember you posting that you liked your AI but probably wouldn't do another one. May I ask what you feel are the pros and cons of the round?

Thanks



Yeah. Here goes�


I like H335 in the hunting load because it gives me velocity from a Barnes that I can't get elsewhere. I do NOT use it in the varmint loads because Ive had pressure problems with it, every one of which was related to a round sitting for a couple minutes in a HOT barrel�like you encounter in the killing fields. Hunting rounds are shot one at a time, not by the score, so it has never been an issue in a cold barrel.

Were I to build another CF 22 it would probably be a .222Mag because brass and data are readily available ( relatively�) and ballistics are so close to the AI that I use 222mag data when working up a load. Otherwise it would be a .22-204 simply ( in both cases) for the lack of fire forming , and a tad more oomph out of the 22-204

FWIW I also wouldn't obsess over an 8 twist UNLESS you want to shoot heavies in it. As you see I like the mid-weight 22 bullets and a 1 in 12 handles them fine�no real need for an expensive barrel. However, if you feel you might like to have the option some time later down the road, virtually all bullets shoot well in the tight twist, so you can go from 40 to 75 grainers�

You also have a few factory .223 with 1 in 9s now�take your pick and have it punched out for an affordable AI.


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Dude270 Offline OP
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Good info guys

I have owned a bunch of 223s through the years and have thought about punching one out to an AI ever since I heard steve timm singing their praises years ago.

Prairie Goat, I figure you are right about the practical gain not really being worth it but this has been an itch I have wanted to scratch for years and I'm going to give it a try.

I picked up an 8 twist pac nor screwed on to a 700 with dies and brass for a fair price so I'm going to give it a whirl.

Any data you guys can provide will be a big help.

I am thinking 50 and 55 NBT's and 55 hornady SP's for general use, 65 sierra gamekings for deer and 75 bergers and amaxs for longer range varmints and steel.

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Dude270 Offline OP
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I read in one of Steve Timm's old posts that once fired brass doesn't fireform well to the AI chamber. Has this been anyone else's experience? I was hoping to use 1x fired lake city brass in my new rifle.
Thanks for the help

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Nope. Not my experience at all. Every single AI round Ive formed was from 1X fired brass.

No problemo.


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I've FFed a whole bunch of 223 AI brass from twice fired LC brass. I usually annealed after fireforming, which was the third firing on the brass. Has worked well for me.

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The .223 case head is good for long brass life at 75,000 psi.
The .223 is SAAMI registered at 55,000 psi.
That is at least 36% safety margin that can be exploited with handloads.

Contrast that with the 6mmRem or 270Win with case heads good for 67,000 psi with long brass life. They are SAAMI registered at 65,000 psi with 3% safety margin.

What does it all mean?
The loads in a load book for 223 or 223AI are only suggestions for bolt action rifles. The AR15s with non adjustable gas systems may be tuned up for 55kpsi.


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Dude270 Offline OP
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thanks fellows
I was starting to feel like I messed up with the AI if I couldn't use the small mountain of LC brass I have squirreled away

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You should be fine.I even fire formed a bunch of nickel plated Federal brass from LE loads the feds used up. Hard as sin, but no problem!


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My favorite load for my CZ is 28.0gr Benchmark under a 50gr VMax. This load gives me a consistent 3500fps, and good accuracy.

All my AI brass is fireformed once (at least) fired brass, nary an issue. I like to use Winchester Nickel for my hunting loads, just because its easier to find in the grass. I am seeing good life with them, with the occasional split neck after the fourth or fifth neck sizing.

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Whatever you do, don't listen to ClarkM. He does a good job of trying to get people killed.

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Don't know if it helps any, but I've fire formed steel cases.

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Originally Posted by mdv1state
Don't know if it helps any, but I've fire formed steel cases.


lol... I was wondering a while back about what would happen with steel cased stuff. A friend gave me some. I never shot it in an AI cause I knew I couldn't reuse the case....and I wasn't sure what might happen with a steel case forming... sick

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My simple forming process has been to take a book max load for whatever bullet I'm forming with and load it up. Max load will form it sharp, light loads may not form as well. You could probably jam the lands and use a light load but a light kiss with a max load has been great for me.


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If the guy running the lathe uses a standard go gauge to headspace an Ackley chamber, the case will stretch too much in fire forming and get frequent case separations just behind the shoulder. This problem is common as dirt.

I have tried ~~ 100 fixes and the best I have found is 10 gr of any pistol powder [that would be 5 gr for .223] covered with cream of wheat and fired without a bullet. The case is slathered with a film high pressure lubrication like moly grease. This forms half a shoulder and does not stretch the case too much behind the shoulder. That half shoulder can stand up to the push of the firing pin. That is unlike the base of the case neck cannot stand up to the sharp shoulder neck base and there will be a ring of plastic deformation. Ackley chambers should be headspaced so new brass crushes .004" [on bolt closing] at the base of the neck. The case then does not move forward on fire forming with the tighter headspace.

The half formed shoulder can be full power with bullets with full accuracy. There will then be a full shoulder for the 3rd firing.

There are other good fixes. A mandrel can open up the case neck that can then be partially full length resized so that there is .004" of crush on bolt closing. Or the barrel can be set back .004".


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Originally Posted by Clarkm
I
1) If the guy running the lathe uses a standard go gauge to headspace an Ackley chamber, the case will stretch too much in fire forming and get frequent case separations just behind the shoulder. This problem is common as dirt.

2) I have tried ~~ 100 fixes and the best I have found is 10 gr of any pistol powder [that would be 5 gr for .223] covered with cream of wheat and fired without a bullet.

3) The case is slathered with a film high pressure lubrication like moly grease. This forms half a shoulder and does not stretch the case too much behind the shoulder. That half shoulder can stand up to the push of the firing pin. That is unlike the base of the case neck cannot stand up to the sharp shoulder neck base and there will be a ring of plastic deformation.

4) Ackley chambers should be headspaced so new brass crushes .004" [on bolt closing] at the base of the neck. The case then does not move forward on fire forming with the tighter headspace.

5) The half formed shoulder can be full power with bullets with full accuracy. There will then be a full shoulder for the 3rd firing.

6) There are other good fixes. A mandrel can open up the case neck that can then be partially full length resized so that there is .004" of crush on bolt closing. Or the barrel can be set back .004".



You're making this into something it isn't. One beauty of these chamberings is that they're just stupid easy.......for most people.

1) You got this one right.

2) Unnecessary and a complete waste of time and whatever components you're using.

3) Stupid and completely unnecessary.

4) People love to parrot the .004" number........this is also "common as dirt." It would work "ok" if every case were exactly the same, but they're not. Try measuring brass. A new 223 case headpaces on the neck/shoulder junction in an AI case. It has to fit with crush. I pulled 20 unfired 223 cases, 2 different headstamps (Lapua gold box and IMI SS109) and measured them........... headspace varied by .007" between longest of one and shortest of the other. A chamber cut .004" short of some fixed gauge is wrong. My own 223AI chambers are cut with .015" crush. That's not too much and there's very little bolt pressure.

5) " Half formed shoulder?" "Full shoulder on the 3rd firing?" What??? You load 'em with bullets and shoot 'em. Perfect shoulder. That's all there is to it.

6) First, you better damn well set the barrel back.......that's how it should be done in the first place. Makes the rest of this nonsense.


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Originally Posted by Ackman
1)I am ackman.
2)Barrel set back as the only solution.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.


There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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