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Originally Posted by Rancho_Loco
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by Scott F


But my thoughts wander to looking at the long term effects of hunting for giant heads. When we pass up spikes, forks, and even modest four points to take a monster head are we not taking the best of the genetic pool and leaving the worst?



I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I will disagree a bit with the logic. The very biggest muley bucks we kill are 6.5-7.5 yrs old. By letting them get to this age, they have already spread their genes around the place for a good 5 years or so. Best of both worlds to me.

I believe the worst mistake we can make, if you're into managing your land, or managing for trophies, is to shoot those impressive looking 2.5-3.5yr old bucks. I will leave those alone for another 2-3 years at least.


Spot on.




Exactly, like Teal mentioned earlier genetics are there from the time a buck is born until he's dead.


When we buy a young bull for breeding cows he is turned out with the cows. His genetic potential is there right from his first poke until his last. You sure as hell don't keep him penned up for 2-3 years first.

Bulls just become a pain in the ass when they are older anyway.

Lots of old cows, not too many old bulls.





As for the emotional side...

Who doesn't feel a little bad shooting a rutting mule deer right when he is in his prime....

I'm always worried about shooting the 'last big buck' and then have some dink 5 year old fork horn with chit genetics start breeding the does.
That could be bad but doubt it happens all that often.

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And as he put, maybe BIGGEST isn't what is best for the 'herd'. But if you follow that it is, it's time for all you boys to let the 'bucks' have their way with your ladies.



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I killed 2 fat does this weekend. Going to see if I can kill another next weekend and then, probably hold out for a decent buck as the rut gets going. So long as I have venison in the freezer, I'm happy, whether it had horns or not.


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There's spikes, and then their are other spikes. Some need killing. I don't let a 2 year old spike walk.

We have the 13 inch rule in all the counties I hunt. Now I'm seeing quite a few tall, heavy, but narrow racked bucks, some 5 and 6 years old.

We are losing the genes that make for wide racks and also the ones that cause racks with lots of trash on 'em. They get killed as 2 or 3 year olds because they meet the 13 inch inside minimum. The old narrow racked bucks we used to cull just keep passing on those genes until they die of old age.

What I'm gonna say next ain't scientific....... I believe that often the genes that make for impressive racks sometimes pair with genes that make a deer more intelligent. I've observed a gathering of 2 year old bucks and the one with a good rack was just naturally more cautious.

And, NO, in at least two cases for sure, the caution was not born of experience.

And....... Peggy says "Hi" to you also, Blue.

For those of you who don't know...... Blue has forgotten more about managing game than most of this forum will ever know.


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I'm generally not picky. For the most part the first legal animal I can get a clean shot on goes in the freezer. Anything else is just playing with my food, and it leaves me free to go on to other endeavors, be it more hunting, home projects, etc.

There have been a couple occasions where I've taken a cull over of several "better" options presented at the same time. The hunt's the same, the meat's the same, and it makes me feel good to do so. Big racks on their own don't mean that much to me.

I don't mind killing a large-antlered prime animal, nor taking a bigger one over a smaller one. More meat. During the rut, I'll take a cow over a stink-bull every time.


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Probably. They are darned sure more invisible. wink

Last edited by eyeball; 10/26/14.

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I kill mostly does and cows. It fits my time constraints better.


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According to the biologists here, it's better to shoot bucks based on age rather than rack size. The exception being spikes. There are some good articles worth reading.

http://www.slideshare.net/tonypugh1/aging-on-hoof-3
http://www.tpwmagazine.com/archive/2004/nov/ed_1/



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Those with 2-3 inch straight spikes are safe from me. Those with some length and curl to the beam, not so much.


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I guess I have always chosen the game by its availability and let the biologists worry about the gene pool...


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I don't like taking skinny speckled back, (young of the year) pin-feathered doves or small bass that haven't had a chance to reproduce. It's not a big deal though and on camping trip hunts years I have put some spotless young of the year on the camp pole for meat. They are tender but you need bacon grease to enhance the flavor.

A lot of it has to do with the fact there are a lot of whitetails in Texas and I often see lots of deer if I'm not hunting the Big Thicket country of East Texas or the prairie/ desert of west Texas for mule deer where does or fawns are not normally legal unless its a big ranch with lots of deer and on a game management program.

I don't shoot quail when the numbers are drastically down even though the state still okays 15 a day, even if on a good day you'd never even see that many.

Last edited by eyeball; 10/26/14.

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Originally Posted by Seafire
What I hate to see is a big trophy deer laying on the side of the road, that probably was nocturnal and got hit by some drunk or speeding idiot at 3 in the morning...


What I hate to see is a trophy whitetail in the woods or field edge with no head and hasn't even been field dressed. Redneck idiots who just kill a dear for the head and don't even try and get the meat or even cheak it in. I have seen several while duck hunting over the years.


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Again, I couldn't care less what someone wants to shoot and doesn't want to shoot, they are all trophies in one regard or another.



Well stated.

Artifacts (heads, photos, or that bullet-holed shoulder blade on my piano), are mere mementos of the real trophy- the hunt, and memories thereof. Or should be.


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Quote
it's better to shoot bucks based on age rather than rack size. The exception being spikes.


The ones like this need killed at every opportunity. I have killed several similar to this but eradicating this gene will take a long time or maybe never because of the limited area that I control. Even if I had more control it might possibly take a complete eradication program to get rid of this. I think that I have helped but it is still here. miles

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Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
My point being, ask Manlicker when the last time he killed a buck was, any buck, let alone a mature or "trophy" buck. Same with ScottF....


I think I can answer for myself. I have not hunted since I moved to WA. Part of that was 52 weeks a year of 65 to 70 hour work weeks. Part has been health. I shot a fork the last season I was in OR. and that was while watching the monster.


The first time I shot myself in the head...

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Originally Posted by curdog4570


For those of you who don't know...... Blue has forgotten more about managing game than most of this forum will ever know.


I got a good laugh about Blue not knowing what he is doing and basically accusing him of high fence. I know him well enough to understand if I knew 1/4 as much as he does I would be a wise man.


The first time I shot myself in the head...

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Originally Posted by Scott F
Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
My point being, ask Manlicker when the last time he killed a buck was, any buck, let alone a mature or "trophy" buck. Same with ScottF....


I think I can answer for myself. I have not hunted since I moved to WA. Part of that was 52 weeks a year of 65 to 70 hour work weeks. Part has been health. I shot a fork the last season I was in OR. and that was while watching the monster.


Curious what Manlickers excuse(s) will be....

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We've been removing the spikes for about 40 years now, much to the chagrin of most everyone I talk to. Fortunately, for me, on our place I get to call the shots. Since there is a limited number of us hunting, We limit ourselves to one mature buck (that being 4+ years of age), and as many spikes or does as you have tags for. We can kill 5 deer. 3 of them may be bucks. Last year there were two bucks killed. That's about 1/5 of what we can stand. I encourage the killing of spikes. I've seen lots of 1+ year old deer with better than spike racks.

My purposes are strictly food related. From a food standpoint we have two winters in South Texas. One is from first frost till the end of February and the other is oftentimes from June - August. This year there was not a green thing growing in July and August. The brush was losing its leaves and the deer were stressed. They had a two month reprieve till now and it's getting dry again. Every spike I remove is one deer's worth of food that I feed to another deer in late November - February.

Likewise I am concerned about my food so I encourage the taking of those spikes and does early on in the season when they are the fattest.

Now, with that said, the last set of horns I killed was ten years ago and I haven't shot any at all in the last three years except for one that I gave to my son the firefighter. He took it back to San Antonio and his shift ate it in a week. It was a spike.

Food should be at the core of hunting and fishing. It should be the main reason we hunt and fish, not the ONLY reason, but the main reason. My father taught me not to kill something that I did not intend to eat. Well, literally that doesn't make sense, but figuratively I know what he meant. He wasn't expecting me to eat coyotes or the skunks raiding the hen house, but he was expecting me to act in an honorable manner in regard to the game I killed.

Now I've got a few horns on the wall, and I will say it's not just about the size of the horns. In my hunting experience, The older bucks and consequently those with the bigger horns are a challenge to hunt under free range conditions, much more so than spikes and certainly more than does. I think they really do know what's going on and the ones that mature don't get that way by standing out in the road for very long. Shooting a nice buck is much more than just the size of his antlers. It is matching wits with an animal that is much smarter than we are in the woods.

Yes, there's canned hunting where 10- 15 150+ buck mill around out in the road waiting for the corn truck to come around again. We all know what those places are and essentially the "hunters" are buying a set of horns. I don't think that is the subject of this conversation.

Personally, I'm more impressed by weight. Our deer are somewhat smallish. I can lift the average spike or doe over the tailgate without field dressing it. A buck that weighs in at 150#+ is a brute. Some of those northern white tails will be pushing 275# dressed. That's nearly three does from South Texas. That's a lot of WORK!

I have no issue with anyone hunting horns as long as they always use the animal for its core purpose, which is food. They don't have to eat it but it's their obligation to find someone who will.

Oh well�


Alan

Last edited by Alan_R_McDaniel_Jr; 10/27/14.

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Well said.


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The mule deer ranches that I have been hunting on as well as doing habitat projects on (Gained two more new properties this year, one of which is 11,000 acres) I am handicapped in what I would like to do, and should be done IMO, by our states 3 point or better rules. As a result, we see dozens of forked horn bucks each year and some of them are quite large. If I legally could, I would have the guys that hunt with me take a bunch of little bucks and or dry does. And I saw a couple of WHOPPER single or loner does this year that would have yielded a nice pile of meat and helped the herd out. The rules, as written, tie my hands and cause too many medium sized bucks with room to grow bigger to be shot.


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