Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 24HC Black Rifle Challenge Thread

Why ten rounds? Statistical relevancy.

Unless you are stacking every 3 shot group on the same target, those three shots tell you basically nothing. You can shoot 3-5 three shot groups on the same target but it won't look any different than a single 10 shot group. 10 shots aren't even enough.

If a person can't press the trigger 10 times without having a seizure, than he probably doesn't have a clue what his rifle can do.






For a forum dedicated to shooting..... People sure do try to find an excuse not to.

I agree completely with the concept, this is gonna be fun.

And I think it's great the way you call out the pos(t)ers that claim accuracy on other threads. May make you some enemies, and I admire that.

I hope there are no hard feelings on the call outs. It's just a little friendly competition, just be ready to back up what you claim.


New target for scoped rifles:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?res...y=!ANEKTKrmLUB-fOk&ithint=file%2cpdf

If I shoot a pile of three shot groups, out of my three shot rifle, then of course they tell me something. They tell me how a magazine full of bullets from my gun is likely to group.

We're not exactly trying to split an atom here. Knowing how my four shot hunting rifle will group after I reload it 1.5 times is statistically IRrelevant to me as a hunter.
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No doubt that ten shot groups give you more data to consider, but at what point to you just not need the data?

A true test of my car would be to see how it performs at high speeds on wet roads. But I don't drive 120mph on wet roads, so I never cared to find out just how well it can "perform".

Same / Same with shooting ten shot groups from a four shot hunting rifle.

None of that intended to be a knock on wareagle's thread. If you're gonna have a friendly shooting match you've gotta set some kind of standard and ten rounds seems as good a number as any for magazine fed guns.

To steal a meme from the NFL mess, if Blue's runnin 57,000 psi, and I'm only runnin 55, do we subtract 1/2" from my group size?

Seems only fair.

Now we gotta have drug testing, too.

Blue, I went with two 10rd groups because it would be too easy to get lucky with a 3 shot group. You really have to work for 10, then do it again. Thats the challenge.

I think it's a good number for something like this. You've gotta make it difficult enough to eliminate some of the luck factor, but easy enough to make people want to participate and simple enough that it doesn't take a big range or crazy props to complete.

It's a good one.

Our local club does something like this, it's good fun along with some coaching from good/experienced competitive shooters.

The thing I learned at the first shoot is that a 3x Nikon reticle covers a whole lotta target at 100 yards. Good for coyotes, not so much for fine shot placement.

Lower PSI is cheating.

You have to add a 1/2".

Gotta try that with my condoms.

I think it is fun and educational to shoot 10, I always shot 3-5 and called it good. I took all my groups and did not hand pick them (who can afford too with 10 rounds) and fired them about as fast as I could with getting settled behind the gun for each shot. I don't know how long it took to shoot them but the barrel was hot when I finished a string.

You can and need to learn to disregard the tension that causes bad shots... I know.. I used to be able to shoot a 199 but dang it all pressure would screw me and at least one shot up.

Once I had a "coach" that was supposed to be all it, that was from the guard teams... and had retired. I had fired around 17 shots at 600, and had 15 X IIRC, and that might have been something close to a service rifle record at the time, IF I had shot a 200... and of course he says... literally, don't intercourse this up now, keep shooting Xs... well guess what... 199 and some Xs later, IIRC I had the x count beat but a 199 is worthless...

I finally got over that and shot 200s at the time fairly often.

In fact in a state match in TX many moons ago, where David Tubb was trying out his new 2000 in 6XC and I was trying out a brand new upper in 6.5 twist 223 with 90 jlks... I had a perfect string going at 600 when my scorekeeper, a real hot head azz, but great shot, his cell started ringing... I only had a few shots left and it was windy... I roll over and say, Steve I'll stop, you can catch that, he got all nervous, mumbling keep shooting you fool, nope I'm good, go ahead... so finally he answers, blabs I'll call you back, and hangs up.. mabye 90 seconds or so... and I settle back in and send the next X downrange, won that stage, Tubb had 197 as did a LaBerge. First ever 200 shot on that range that had been open a couple years or so. It was a state championship match on top of it. It was an open match, meaning I shot handicap with a service rifle against match rifles, IE bolt guns. And still won it.

Having won the 800 and 900 yard stages of a state palma the day before with the same gun, and loosing 1000 by a bit, ending up 3rd over all in the palma with a service rifle.

I say this not to brag at all, and sorry for the digression, as I don't think of myself as that good of a shot anyway, but simply if you are having issues shooting 10 or even 20 good shots, or even just 3-5, you just need to shoot and get over the anxiety part of it.

Lord knows if I could do that, then you or anyone else (except my SIL) can do it. Its mental. You can conquer that. Its your brain, control it!

Sorry for getting OT there...

Not off topic at all Jeff. In fact that's what this is all about, learning to deal with pressure, real or imagined.

As I said when I posted my target, once I pulled the 8th shot it was all over mentally. My second group had a different POA and was rushed because I knew a 2.5" "flyer" knocked me out of the running. Had I got up and got my head right, I might have scored better.

And I will next go or the go after that, it's all practice that makes us better when we look at what we did instead of making excuses and not shooting at all. Maybe next month we'll do 5, 5 shot groups on the same target for those that don't like 10 shot groups. But honestly, did you ever better yourself doing just what you are good at? Challenge yourself!

Now let's see some more targets.

Exactly right on challenges. After 10 plus years of not shooting, I'm expecting I probalby will suck to an extent.

BUT the way we got better was not by shooting with the also rans, but with the best, and trying to get to their level and then beat em.

And in highpower, especially service rifle, if you beat the best there was, they were almost all happy to give you a pat/shake/hug and congratulate you.

You figure out how to make a 22 shot match, 22 mini matches if you will. But along the way you learn to shoot faster, cleaner, better, and it all comes with practice...

Once I learned i could shoot perfect scores at 600, my next goal was 1000, where it had never been done, and then finally done once with the loads and bullets I'd give to the AMU team. I don't know that I could ever do it now, but at the time I KNEW i could do it. IT may not have happened but knowing you could in your mind was a big thing.

I've always sucked at standing and my brain knows it. Wife and I both felt we were only a bit away from figuring standing out, mentally mostly, and being able to be at the very top of the game mostly with the top front runners and actually be contenders.

I loved so much to shoot. And simply don't find the time now, but as I noted, I managed to get a fence around the berm late Sunday night, and have mowed it once at 100 yards, and the way its raining, will have to shred again this weekend if not to muddy, which means just maybe I'll get to play.

Honestly I think Blue's idea though, has always been the best for testing your real ability, its how we did it with bows for years...

One shot, cold bore, once a day or even every other day or whatever until you have X shot on the same target. Or overlayed.

It tests the gun, the shooter, the load, and the weather issues.

I don't know much at all about scopes, but trust me there is a LOT that can affect iron sight shot location, but never touch group size. And vice versa.

For starters how many realize(with optics too) that the effect of mirage is seperate from the effect of wind? Most just think mirage tells you what the wind is doing. And it can do that, but there is more to the puzzle.

Night shooting with no wind and mirage tells a LOT. Shooting on a fairly cool day, thats partly cloudy and shooting in and out of mirage, can be an eye opener sometimes.

Wareagle, is a Caldwell Tack Driver bag ok to use for this challenge? If not, can just a regular front bag or pack be used?
Thanks.

What? The copyright for the bulls bag expired? Had not seen those.

A buddy had one, didn't care that much for it, but some folks have great luck with them.

Yeah that's fine.

This target was shot using a Zeiss 3x9 scope on my Ar. The rifle is a Noveske lower and a Daniel Defense upper. I'm not sure of the make of the barrel. I got it from Wareagle700 and he said it was the best barrel ever made. It is 20 inches long with a 1/9 twist and is chrome lined. The barrel is not free floated.
I am submitting this target while I wait for the chance to shoot with a peep sight.

The group on the right was fired first, starting with a cold barrel. The load used was Hornady 55 grain V-Max right out of the box. I was actually not surprised with this group size as the rifle always shoots this load very well. I have just never fired ten shots in a row with it before. The larger group was fired immediately after the first ten and was fired with a hot barrel using the same ammo. I guess that non floating type hand guard probably caught up with me. Anyway, I'm not going to shoot two ten shot groups, each with a cold barrel, to convince myself of anything. I'll just stick with those tiny three shot groups and have fun.