Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles CFE223 low velocities

I am having an issue with low velocities using CFE223, I have chronographed the loads in three different rifles and they all give very similar results, I have also verified the chronograph by comparing loads of other powders with known velocity using the same chronograph and also by using a friends Oehler.

Per Hornaday data - max load with CFE223 - 29 grs, vel - 3667 in a 24 inch barrel

Using CFE223 my actual velocities average 3443 using a 24 inch barrel, slightly less in a 22 inch barrel and slightly more in a 26 inch barrel (pretty much right around the 25 fps loss or gain expected from barrel length).

Data -
223 Remington
LC brass
Nosler 40 gr Ballistic Tip
28 1/2 gr CFE 223 (1/2 gr under max listed in Hornady data)
Win primers

Info -
Brass -I have tried Lapua and Win brass and they give nearly the same velocity.
Primers - I have tried Win, Federal, CCI, and Wolf, again no substantial changes in velocity.
Bullet - I tried Hornady V-Max 40 gr, no substantial change in velocity.
Powder - 3 different lot numbers of CFE 223, all near identical velocity.

The load is super accurate but it does not give the "POP" on varmints and of course I hate giving up over 200 fps. I have been using VV-133 with the same components and getting 3800 without pressure signs using the same rifles, but at $230 for 8 lbs by the time it is shipped it is getting a bit pricey.

Question - is this normal for CFE223 to not attain loading data velocity?

Thoughts?

drover

You're under a book max charge and wondering why you're under book max speeds? I'd work up to speed and/or pressure.

Hornady published data lists 29 grs @ 3667 as max and I am loading 28-1/2 and getting an average of 3443. I have been loading for 50 years now and I have never seen this much disparity between published data and real world results.
Yes, I have thought of setting up the chrono and working up to published speed but I am a bit cautious in trying to make up that many fps.

Further info - in my 24 inch barreled 22/250 loading 50 gr Nosler BT's at a 1/2 gr under max it slightly exceeds published data.

My question is this - "Is it normal for CFE223 to not attain loading data velocity?"

To add to my question- Has anyone else noticed this or are they just accepting published velocity without chronographing to confirm it?

Perhaps this is an issue of the 40 gr bullet not letting sufficient pressure being built. I am hoping for some input from other folks who are running CFE223 with 40's in the 223.

drover

Have you tried any Magnum Primers?

Drover, in general, a 200 fps variance from published is not all that unusual. Especially with a powder represented to be so much better then everything similar.

As a for a specific answer, I suspect there are not enough folks playing with your exact load combination to give you a decent sample. CFE 223 is still a fairly new powder and the general tendency on this forum is to play with heavier bullets.

As antelope_sniper has stated it is unlikely that many here have encountered your situation as of yet. I think I have the components to work up the load in question though I seldom work with a chronograph since giving up my home with a shooting range out the back door.

If you do not mind my asking what is the lot number of the CFE223 powder you are experiencing the substantially lower than projected velocity with? This sounds very similar to a somewhat recent experience Mule Deer experienced with a newer lot number of Ramshot Tac. As I recall he just worked up the load carefully with the new lot of powder and velocity and accuracy node for the new lot of powder came together at near a full grain heavier charge than the previous lot he was working with.


Seems others have shared similar experiences with Lil Gun only it a scarier situation where the revers would be true that they were reaching pressure and velocity at a much lower charge weight than may have been expected. All powders are subject to these variations, the non extreeme variants seem most likely at risk for your dilemma. No Lawyer minded individual will likely tell you to work up your load to desired pressure/velocity and exceed book recommendations, though they do tell us to start at a low charge and work up load for our given rifle.

Given the short time this powder has been on the market we have not seen much shared in terms of lot to lot variation with CFE 223. This is not listed as an extreem powder known for minimal velocity spread from lot to lot and or from low temp to high temp environment, so your experience does not surprise me that much.


Thanks for sharing! I will be keeping an eye on what others may have seen for velocity variations from different Lots and temperature extremes with the CFE 223.

Thanks for the replies, I am just a bit surprised at the low velocities since I have not encountered this much disparity before with other powders.

I have not tried magnum primers, I may do so just as an experiment.

I will probably end up setting up the chronograph and seeing what occurs with charge increases.

drover

I will take a look at the lot numbers and post them but some of the cans have already been tossed but all were bought far enough apart that they were not the same so it appears to be a characteristic of it,at least in my experience.

I found velocity to run higher than listed when using CFE in my 17 Remington. Sometimes way higher, like almost 200fps with the max charge listed for 20gr bullets. I use CCI 41s for primers but have recently switched to Remington 7 1/2s.

I recently purchased some CFE223 but have not gotten a chance to load for it yet.

Have you called the guys at Hodgdon to inquire as to your quandary?

drover,

Books are stupid. All data in book form is, is a rough guide or starting point.

There are too many variances to think that 29gr's of a given powder with a given bullet will give the same speeds in every rifle/chamber in the country.

If you want 3,600fps, just keep adding powder until you get there.




Travis

I don't think a SR Magnum primer is going to make a big difference for you.



Travis

I've gotten right at book speeds with CFE in a couple 223's. Have only used one lot# though. It is my favorite 223 powder. By far.

Remembering that the Hornady data (and several other sets) use Win brass with their loads, and that the volume difference between Win and LC/FC/Lapua is significant, I'd say that half a grain off max is likely a max charge. Not sure why your speeds would be low. Maybe your scale is taking a crap. Had best luck with CCI primers, and 400s have been supreme for accuracy out of the gun that would show any differences.

I started using CFE223 in my little RAR, with 75gr A-Max. It is a very accurate load. But I was getting large SD readings. I switched to CCI450 primers and the SD has dropped a lot. I am getting quite a bit lower velocities than Hogdon lists, but I am using a 16.5" barrel so I expect that.

Bob

It looks like it is time to set up the chronograph and start working up a bit at a time to see if I can achieve published velocity without pressure signs. But that will have to wait a couple of week until I am back from PD hunting.

I have not shot any 50 gr bullet from the 223 using CFE 223 since I do not normally shoot 50's in the 223 but I think I will load up a few to see how they measure against published data.

drover

If I want top speed I load everything over the chronograph. I usually start in the 90% range and keep adding until the chronograph reads what it should.

I never did this until I started loading for 7X57. Barsness wrote an article explaining how great the variances can be between two 7X57 chambers and explained how to load for them accordingly.

I've since applied that to everything else and have had no problems. But you need a good idea of what is too fast for a given combo as well as not fast enough.

If number too big = too much powder.

If number too small = add powder.

Works for me anyway.



Travis

I have done that also, that is the route I will go with this one.

I am hopeful that I can find the speed along with the accuracy I am getting at the lower velocity, out of my better 223's I am getting consistent 5 shot sub 1/2 inch groups. It is a great gopher/PD load except that I am missing the "POP" that higher velocity brings.

drover