From my Bob Lee recurve and shooting off the shelf, I've been shooting 3@4" Gateway shield cut feathers and even some parabolics I had. The 4" shield and parabolics are both 15.5 mm tall according to Gateway. With cock freather out, that bottom feather is getting worn out pretty quick. All frazzled looking. Phylis Diller looking worn out.

So I looked at the Trueflight feathers web-site. Trueflight feathers are only 14 mm tall. So, I'm thinking I might try the "shorter" feathers and see if the wear out rate is a tad less. Concern though, is that with a shorter feather I'll also have less stabilizing effect.

I using a Bitz with helical clamp, so their spinning pretty good., so maybe the shorter feathers will stabilize just fine.

I'm an engineer and tend to overthink things. Like alot. Analyze it to death. It's my nature. Drives my wife crazy.

Arrow is too stiff.

Learn to bare shaft tune.

Pretty normal can try rotating nock. Can also play with brace height. I've had best luck with trueflight feathers but have always burned to shape.

I thought the same. Paper tuning at 6-feet if anytihing shows the shaft to be a tad weak with both fletched (2+ inch nock left tear) and bare shaft (2 1/2" nock left tear). So that is confusing. All tears horizontal, so at least the nock is good.

Heck, even shooting bare shaft at 15-yard shows it weak. In slo-mo it's fishtailing like crazy.

Too late to add shaft lenght, so I may add 25 grains to the point and see how it changes.

Same response I got for the bowyer at Bob Lee. "Normal". Unless the arrow bends completely around the riser it's going to touch somewhere. Seems like if it's "weak enough" it would miss the riser but then it'd be kicking out pretty good.

I don't know (obviously). It confusing.

Are you fletching right helical? I get more fletching wear on that feather with right helical than left. Anymore, when fletching 3 fletch, I use left helical for that reason.

Yep, right helical.

Changed out the 100 gr point for a 125 gr. Actually flies better, at least so it seems to me. Up around 19 FOC. I'll shoot new feathers for the next several days and see if the wear slows down some.

Thanks for the advice.

What is your shelf/sideplate cushion material? I use Velcro.

Did you leave a gap at the junction for quill clearance?

Using this method my cock feather is not at 90 degrees, but slightly downward (making my top hen more 12 oclock).


Shooting off the shelf w a reg 90 degree cock feather you will be hard on the lower hen.

BTW, a 2" tear is too much IMHO.
Should be half an inch or less.

There some tuning to be done (bow, arrow, shooter).

If it is weak adding more point weight will make it weaker.
If your bow is set up for centershot, bring the sideplate out a little. Should be out slightly anyway (arrow when looking straight down string).

Easton tuning guide and the Blackwidow tuning video are golden.

Shelf is leather. Side plate is a "hair" type with sticky on one side. The bow is cut past center but I couldn't say how much. Having read the Easton Tuning Guide, I checked to see if the arrow is lined up a tad left of the string as described. Pretty darn close to what they call for.

I thought about rotating the nock. Good suggestion if I cannot solve the hen feather wear any other way.

The arrows seem to be too weak, although when fletched with helicals fly pretty good. Add 25 gr to the tip seemed to fly better still even though it certainy made the arrow setup weaker. I do like the higher FOC.

I'll redo the paper tuning when I get the chance. It's Monday again. Work calls.

Stop shooting at paper!!!

Weigh your current arrow.
Remove fletching from one arrow and then wrap electrical tape around the shaft in the area of the fletching to match the weight of the fletched arrow. Failure to add weight of fletching in effects causes the arrow to behave as if the point weight is heavier by the weight of the fletching.
Make sure that you have solid form! Results need to be consistent and form issues will mask tuning problems
Shoot at 15 yards, then 20, then 25 yards and observe the flight of the arrow.
Get back to me with your results and I will help you correct it.

Interesting. I kind of wondered about fletching weight effect on bare shafts. Got a busy day, but I'll get around to the tape trial.

I always create a "feather path" or slight gap where the strike plate and shelf rest meet. I've always used rug rest on the shelf and a piece of slick leather for the strike plate. Bear Archery sells a little 2 piece stick on kit that has both substances. I have 3 fletched wood arrows that have been shot literally hundreds of times with no discernable wear to the hen feathers.

How wide is that feather gap?

Paper and bare shaft should show the same thing.
Either works.

But if your release isn't repeatable, or your arrow is crashing the bow............neither matters.

I just measured the gap on my Palmer take down recurve. The gap is about 1/8", maybe a little less.

What is "crashing" the bow?

I can feel when I do a poor release. A decent "pluck" of the string really shows up on a paper tune!

Perfect. Thanks! The gap on mine is a tad under 1/8" and am shooting basically 9/32 shafts. I may open the gap just a bit and clock the feathers and see what happens. Wish my camera and/or phone do more FPS so slo-mo would catch what is happening better.

I liked the idea of electrical tape in place of the feathers to duplicate the spine effect of the fletch. Did that and matched weight to another shaft, shot a few times with each through paper, then at 5 yds, 10 yds, and 15 yards. Initially the bare shaft was flopping every which way and yielding a nock left tear in the paper. Referenced the most excellent Dynamic Spine Calculator on 3- Rivers website, and went to work. Wound up cutting off 1/4" of shaft and changing tip weight. Now both the bare shaft w/tape and flecthed shaft are shooting just almost the same. Though paper at 6-ft they yield a 3/4" horizontal tear. A multiple yardages they stick in the target nice and straigt. So I'm kind of happy how that turned out.

I have 3 arrows cut to the "new and immproved" length ready to shoot tomorrow if it doesn't rain. Would like to catch it on slo-mo for viewing the action around the shelf.

Thanks all for the input.

I don't think many stickbow shooters need to worry about fletch changing spine compared to bare shaft.

The reason for bare shaft vs fletched is to remove stabilization effect of the fletch (which may corrupt shaft data).

And to remove rest crash by the fletch, which may corrupt shaft data,

One could have the right shaft and horrible rest setup and get bad flight.

I sure do hate the old Bear rubber weather rest. Pretty much hate any rest with an ear.

Gapped Velcro shelf shot for recurve, or if using compound fingers a cushion plunger and the old GK Huntmaster 2000.
Release...........gimme a Ripcord drop away.

The paper tear is likely still showing the sting roll from off of your fingers upon release.
Also, carbons are more critical so far as dynamic spine vs length than other shafts. As ou found, even a 1/4" in length can make a difference. Aluminum, not so much. And woods are the most forgiving.
For a hunting arrow, it is hard to beat aluminums. They are the straightest and most consistent in spine. The price is good with excellent overall arrow weight. And the variations in sizes allow you to have a wide variety of spine/weight/diameter choices. Yes they bend but it takes a lot.

Aluminums could be had in a zillion sizes and the old Easton charts were pretty damn good.
.
Pick your block and hop over one for next highest spine and it was a safe bet.

Carbons are lesser in choice size wise, and the charts laughable back a few yrs ago.

Have been shooting carbons since 2002. A dozen of so diff recurves. Only had one give me a bit of trouble (req more spine than thought ).

Durability......carbon wins.

And I have access to an Easton assembly line aluminum straightener, and know how to use one very well.

Anybody that doesnt have a good straightener ...needs to not go w aluminum IMHO. Hell, such a straightener may not even be found in shops today.

I liked the old Jim Daugherty naturals. Hell my brother in law might have some of my last Supernaturals laying around.

Paper tune has worked very well for me and has shown the same data as bare shaft. I see no difference in testing.
If its good its good and if not, its not.

I do know that not seeing a target, some folks may try to peek w papertune. Thats on them, not the paper. You either make a clean release w proper followthrough or dont.

And if you dont its gonna suck bare shaft too.

Papetune for me is at 6 ft. Seems to work pretty friggin good.

Dont understand the hate for that method.

Carbons are usually smaller than aluminums in diameter and that makes arrow rest clearance a little tougher.

Proly why drop aways became popular w wheelers.
The lack of dampening rests also makes things more picky there IMHO.

And why they proly need shot w D loop.

Progress can be a PITA at times.

And that headache might be good enough reason to just say F it and go aluminum. Proven charts, decent overall arrow weights.

Like em just fine. And for the backyard archer maybe ideal.
But shooting 3d from the compound stakes.....nope.
A belly or backline skip puts a hell of a wow in aliminum.
And no, who wants to shoot from the damn kiddie stakes?

Go bowhunter to 35 or mbr to 45. Way more fun, if running carbons

Another option, turn your cock feather in towards the riser. I've had 2 recurves I could't get good paper tears no matter what I did until I turned cock feather in. I've also switched to a bear elevated rest. Night and day difference in tuning and arrow flight.

Shot some this afternoon with cock feather in. Sure feels strange, but have to admit I don't think it made much if any difference. I've got a few freshly fletched arrows I'll shoot only cock feather in and see how it works out.

I have never tried a shelf setup (or other) cock feather in.
Never needed to.
Would seem to me best to minimize contact.

Gap my rug rest, the sideplate up and bit, and the shelf out a little........gap on either side of the crease.
I also do not cover the shelf out all the way.

So with my mostly 12 oclock top feather position, the outer is angled down, and has minimal/no contact.

But I shoot a radiused shelf bow, that doesn't have a super wide shelf.
Have shot bigger flat shelf bows just fine doing the same, w a toothpick under the velcro.

Lots of people use the Bear packaged rest and cover as much of the shelf as possible.
That works OK, after you burn clearance by lots of shooting LOL

I do not use shelf/sideplate material that offers no cushion.
Regular cheap arsed Velcro has been a stellar performer for me, for decades.

My hunting buddy uses the little self stick pads you put on the bottom or chair legs. He says they last FOREVER.

Whatever works!

You use the "hook" side or "loop" side or both?

Fuzzy on shelf and sideplate

I use those also - made of felt if I recall correctly. They are usually thicker than I like so use a razor blade to thin them down. I also use velcro but it doesn't hold up as well as the felt pads.

Sounds like a lot of trouble to cut the felt pads and all. Other than not wearing out as fast, what is the advanatage for you?

The felt pad provides a bit of cushion which help correct for paradox.
An arrow bends upon release as the back of the arrow attempts to pass the front. Because the enerhy from the bow string is forcing the arrow forward from ots resting position. Newton's laws.
The arrow naturally bend then away from.the riser and out around the bow window to varying degree as a result of the release and even a bit of roll.off of your fingers. Dynamic spine.
Arrows too stiff will show hen feather wear and may even strike the bow window upon release. You can usually hear the sound of such.

They really aren't hard to cut with a sharp razor blade - they split right down the middle, thickness wise...

Velcro, w proper bow tune, is a once a yr replace.
Damn cheap too.
Hell, you should be putting a new string on every year anyway.

Record your final settings, and it should be super easy to get 'er dialed back in the following yr with a freshen up.

Lots of ways to rig up that appear to work just fine. My rig (as bought and still is) has a leather pad on the shelf and faux calf hair side plate. Guess I shoot that till it wears out.

Have to say, shooting with cock feather in has stopped the feather wear problems and the arrow flies beautifly. I sure don't hear the arrow striking to the bow window.

Just for grins, was thinking about dusting the shelf and side plate with baby powder to see where the shaft and feathers are actually touching as they pass by. Might work. If not, maybe some old fashond "Christmas Tree" spray on flock as that stuff has just a bit of sticky to it.

Here is what the felt pads looks like after reducing the thickness - you can see the foam pad under the felt which provides a good cushion. This particular one has several years of wear on it and has lots of life left. Most of the wear is from the hen feather on the outer edge of the shelf - virtually no wear on the portion in contact with the shaft. Lots of ways to make things work - I use a lot of velcro also...

JGray: Looks good!

Proly 30 recurves over the years.
None shot cock feather in.
Never needed to.

If such helps your arrow/noise flight............you've got something going on that needs fixed.
Sounds more like a bandaid than a fix to me.

But do whatever.

Confidence is an important thing. Whatever works and builds your trust.
But make sure it really is trustworthy.

Can't argue cause I'm short on experience here. But the arrows are flying sweet, little to no bow noise, and I'm getting as good a group cock feather in as when it was out. Only difference I can see is that the hen feather not getting all beat to heck. Granted, I could clock the nock and roll that hen feather into the gap, but it seems there is no need.

And as you note: "Whatever works and builds your trust". Wise words.

Thank you all for the sage insights.

Most times weird/ non standard setups.......dont work.
But sometimes they do.

Had a mgmnt guy swear his setup was good as he had probs before and after the change did not.

I saw his arrows fly and they were.not good.

They evidently were horrible before.
Since he could now sorta group and things looked better he thought he had arrived.

A tuneup and nock turn and he shot, best groups, but low.
He said he couldn't see his arrows fly anymore.

I just smiled. They were bullets.

Once he finally heard a well tuned bow, saw good arrowflight ( lack of seeing LOL ).....he finally understood.

Thats all im trying to say.....if you really have a system that delivers, so be it. Just double check.

There is a ton of BS on some archery and even trad forums IMHO