Hey Gents, kinda a bow greenhorn here, been hunting bow for decades but dont keep up to date with the latest equipment, and am most likely severely behind the technological curve with my older set-up.

Question is do I need to upgrade my bow and accessories, been shooting this bow since '06, really like it and shoot it very well and dont wanna change if drastic improvements in performance are not available.

Bow is an '06 Mathews Black Max II with Turbo cam, excellent condition.

Arrows 30'5"s long and weigh 364 grains

Broaheads are G5 Stryker Magnum at 125 grains

Velocity is an average at 311 fps.


Do these figures still compute to good killing power? I will only hunt NA game, with Elk most likely being the largest.

Thanks for any help, opinions, or equipment recommendations.

Gunner

You are damn good.

My bow is getting 278 to 280 with a 414 grain arrow and I would be willing to shoot a elk/bear out to 55 yards with it no problem.

In fact, heavier arrows might be better. Kinetic Energy kills.

With a total arrow weight of 364 grains @ 311 fps,..calculator gives 78 ft/lbs.

That's enough to energy to hunt T-Rex's.

No reason to change if it's still shooting good. You could buy new stuff, but probably wouldn't improve significantly over what you're already shooting.

I'm shooting an 07 Drenalin getting about 64ft/lbs,..way more than I need for a deer.

06 model bows are not really that out dated. The biggest improvement I see from then to now is better cams.

Thanks Winnie, sounding good.

Gunner

DW444, yes arrow only weight is 364, add the 125 gr broadhead and it's a total of 489 grains at 311 fps.

Guessing that would compute to a few more pounds of arrow energy?

Gunner

Thank You too MCH, glad to see that archery equipment isn't like electronic gadgetry, something 6 months old is already light-years behind new tech.

Gunner

I still shoot a 2006 Mathews XT and I will till something better comes along.

That's good news 257R, I spect I will too. I really like my older bow.

Does anyone know the formula for arrow energy?

489 grains total arrow weight with broadhead at 311 fps av. velocity for 5 shots through chrony.

Thanks,
Gunner

Here's an online link:

http://www.dewclawarchery.com/Kinetic_Engery_Calculator-a/157.htm

And if you have a pocket protector and a Hewlett Packard handy:

The kinetic energy formula is:

1/2 Mass times velocity squared

or

Kinetic Energy = (1/2 M) x (V2)


I'd agree with the cam comment above, and the other advantage with the new bows is weight reduction and riser design. I still have a Golden Eagle Hunter that I break out once in a while as a reminder of what will kill deer, and what advantages a new bow has. My Hunter still works, if your bow is still working for you, no need to change unless you find a design or feature that really appeals to you.

Best advice I could suggest is to go shoot every bow you can in your local bow shop, and see if any really give you an advantage/gain over your current set-up.

My old Switchback XT will be with me for many years to come. In fact if it was lost stolen or somehow ruined, I would search to by another used one before I bought something new.

There are things that just never get surpassed. Land cruisers, mustangs, Old Pre 64 winchesters, Switchbacks,

If you're happy with the accuracy and performance you're good to go. However there is no downside to having an equal backup. I have two bows at all times. They are far more fragile then a rifle so I keep an equal back available all the time.

My only personal input to this is shooting a sub 400 grain arrow, and not using slicktricks. There is a real world difference that you cannot measure on paper at that 400 grain level. 400 grains plus in weight has always seemed to penetrate far better for me, and all those I know that are serious archery hunters. Many of us have gone down the path of lighter, faster and flatter shooting arrows. On animals that is not the route we have seen work best. Long range flat shooting sub 400 grains is great on targets. But when that arrow hits anything bigger then deer, 400-425 and up has been a far better for all of us.

Gees,....

You must have a 36" draw length....

That puts you at 105 ft/lbs...

That moves you from the T-Rex to Blue Whale territory...

Wow I read that different the first time, That must be a typo, 489g at 311fps?

I would have to see this with my own eyes, the scale or the chronograph might need a service.

I wasn't going to say anything but yes that would be amazing speed with an arrow in that weight class.

Thanks everyone, and yes, the figures are correct, my arrows are the very stiff Easton AXIS 300's with the HIT tip and 125 grain G5 Magnum weigh exactly 489 grains. I fired 5 arrows through the chrono yesterday for an average of 311 fps.

The bow does have somewhat of a built in overdraw as the broadhead tips at full draw are at the rear of my left hand knuckles.

I remember the bow-shop done something to the bow when I first got it to get it as close as they could to a 31" draw.

I do know this combo flies through deer like a hot knife through butter, and I am happy with performance, just thought there may be some new tech out there being this set-up is 6 years old now.

Gunner

You guys think the Turbo Cam and extra draw length could be responsible for the bit of extra speed?

If that is the case, your saying I'm set for all NA game animals should I go for maybe Moose with a bow?

And I will bring the set-up to the Boar Hunt this spring and somebody can maybe make a recording of arrow weight and chrono results if ya'll think I should.

Gunner

LOL, I think a total weight of only 364 grains would probably blow my bow up.

So 105 is good?

Gunner

You could kill a Rhino...

I would shoot a moose with mine at 72 ft/lbs...

That's what the "experts" say...

Helluva dang deal Men, I do know with that big Morrell broadhead target ya have to pull the arrows on out the back of the target. LOL

Gunner

LOL Winnie, yeah but how ya gonna hold still enough to get an arrow in a Rhino or some of the other dangerous game from DW444's chart above specially standing there on the ground lookin at 'em.

Gunner

I didn't say I could... you can. I'm a whimp.

its not legal for thick skinned DG in southern Africa

ball park avg 80lb draw with 800gr arrow is the minimum depending on the country.

Damn.....

If your slinging nearly 500 grains at 311fps you is all set and then some, provided ya hit the target!

I shoot a 10 year old Darton, does great for me and I shoot it well. However, every time I go into an archery shop and pick up a new bow and send a few arrows down range, I almost convince myself I need a new one!

It's worse than rifles.

JJ Hack,

What don't ya like about Slicktricks? I was thinking of trying them this year?

What heads do you shoot?

My statement was not that he stop using slicktricks, but that is is not using them and should be.

They are all I use, they are the best game in town in my opinion.

I haven't bought a new bow since Matthews came out with the Switchback. Is this a sign of old age or is my bow a "classic"?

Ya aint no whimp Winnie, yer a young buck slap full of P&V.

Gunner

Thanks MM, and speaking of new bows, i've really wanted to learn to shoot long bow, but my dang elbows are double jointed and that string will cut hair on my forearm.

Gunner

Your arrows all up minus vanes @ 31" would be 471.7gn. I am not saying you can't reach the speed because you could play with it to get the lbs up above 70 to reach it. But the stock bow not played with isn't going to reach that speed.

10-4 MCH, IIRC the Turbo Cam was sposed to add around 10+ fps on it's own, and they did tweak my bow, it's draw weight is 76 lbs, and I dont remember the exact draw length they were able to get, but they made that difference up tweaking my release length.

Gunner

Not exactly related but worth a mention if your rather new to actually hunting. As a PH taking many bow hunters. I have seen my fair share of high draw bows and hunters so focused on speed they cannot actually hunt with the equipment they are using. Sitting in a blind watching the third attempt at getting the bow back while an animal is there 17 meters away. This is embarrassing to witness. The hunter while standing has the bow go above the head and then down to aim. Unfortunately this is not functional for hunting.

Stealth beats speed all day long. Have we forgotten this is a close range intimate event? 50 plus yard shots is something other then bow "hunting". Shooting long range like that completely removes the actual thrill of the bow hunting experience. It's suppose to be close range and prove the hunting skills of the hunter, not the shooting capability of new technology. But hey that's just me. Other folks do things differently of course. I feel sorry for them to be missing the boat on the real thrill of what bow hunting is. Nothing I would kill at 50 plus yards would ever match the hunting skill, success, and pride I feel for doing the same thing at 15 yards.

Can you kneel and sit back on your heels, then draw your bow straight back without having it go at all above level. Can you do this slow and smooth? If you can then that's great. However not many men I've hunted with can draw their bow this way smoothly. If you cannot then your not set up for hunting.

You see hunting is not standing and target shooting, but rather being able to draw slow smooth and silently with as minimal movement as possible. The game we bowhunt is close ......REAL close 10-25 yards. Real bow hunting ranges not the launch and pray 50-60 plus ranges.

I've killed everything I've shot at with 60-65 lbs which can be drawn very easy. Other hunters like Ted Nugent hunt with 55-60 lbs because it's such a close range hunt you must be very capable of a smooth easy effortless draw to remain unseen. This draw weight with a proper arrow has killed game for me to 2000 pounds ( bison and eland) Plenty in the 750-1000lb range too!

It's entirely up to the hunter to use what they like. I'm only suggesting that the fastest flattest bow made will not kill game when the effort to draw it exceeds the comfort and ease and stability that is needed.

Spot and stalk hunting with 25-30 let downs a day will begin to take its toll on your shoulders after a few days. People never let down when target shooting so they don't know how those joint ripping let downs effect them after countless times over a week of hunting.

I'm all for the heaviest arrows at the highest speeds. But I've seen 100% success with 55-65 lb bows and massive struggles with those exceeding 70 lbs. it has also become crystal clear that the wicked good killers are usually in that mid 60's range while the newer less experienced hunters are cranking up the power as much as they can, and using the lightest arrows that will ( kinda) work. Some handle it........ but very few!

Thanks for all the very informative and interesting information and some of your experiences while hunting JJ, I appreciate it greatly.

And yes Sir, I can draw my bow very slow and smooth at 90 degrees my 4 pins are set at 30, 40, 50, and 60 yards, I shot at 30 and 40 the day I started this thread and was averaging 3" groups [no wind] at 40 yards, that's really pretty good for me.

And agreed on another thing, my Grandpa told me when I was a boy that, "A slow hit beats the mortal hell out of a fast miss"

Gunner

JJHACK,

I agree with most everything you said. However you must have never been a spot shooter or to a tournament. Target archery's "let down" a fair amount. However that is here nor there. The difference is in the cam that a target archer uses over the over kill cams hunters use. I will say the manufactures are making strides in better hunting cams.

I shoot a 71lb draw and I can pull it back repeatedly laying flat on the floor or any other position. A big culprit in giving guys the idea they can crank up the weight is inventing whisker biskets, and drop away containment style rest. Shooting these types you don't have to be "in control" which in turn means smooth. On my finger bow I shoot a flipper rest with plunger, on my release bow I shoot a launcher blade. If your shooting these types of rest you'll never pull your bow back shacking, struggling, canting, ect. I understand guys like the arrow containment and I am not saying they should switch to what works for me and what I suggest. But they should practice in the off season with a non-containment type rest so they can learn and see how smooth it will make them once hunting season comes around. It will also give them a realistic draw weight.

Yessir MCH, 71/76 lbs is cake, the bow I hunted with 14 years before this Mathews was an old Oregon Deschutes round wheel bow set at 90 lbs, talk about a smooth quiet fast cadillac, that was it.

Gunner

71 maxed on my bow is pretty easy to draw. I had a few friends over who tried to draw my bow. I was afraid they were going to hurt themselves trying to draw it back.

There is definately a skill and aquired ability to drawing a bow smoothly. I know big strong guys that will struggle to draw my bow, yet I must appear as a circus freak to them smoothly drawing back my puny 62 lbs.

Most any adult man can handle 55 lbs. maybe even 60lbs. The 65lb mark is the line in the sand for the majority to draw with the calm slow smoothness that is required. There are many who believe that 70 is easy and are fooling themselves. Not sure how 70lbs became the "industry standard". I think most manufactures make bows in 10lb increments. 50-60 60-70 My opinion has always been that it should have been 45-55 and 55-65. Bows will in almost all cases draw 2-3 lbs heavier then listed. That puts the 55-65lb draw up near 68.

I had a Martin Archery bow custom made for me. They made it 50-65lbs and it will draw just a hair over 68lbs. Although I have it set for 65. There is nothing wrong with shooting 70 plus lbs. I've had a number of guys shoot them. I had a couple brothers hunt with me that were using High country archery bows. They were both shooting 80lbs. Within our normal archery distances those two brothers shot through everything, but then so did the petite little woman golf Pro I took and she was shooting 45lbs. Everyone believes they have this smooth effortless draw. Then in the lodge we watch the videos of the hunt. Unconsciously the hunters draws the bow and you see the bow rise above his head on the draw. Sometimes the shot is still okay and other times that movement spooks game.

There is a huge difference between drawing the bow at or below shoulder level and drawing it up over your head. I've been the one watching these activities with a lot of hunters over the years. Much like having them draw and unable to get past the let off while sitting in a blind. That I've seen dozens of times!

Even though in pre hunt phone conversations I will have told them point blank, shoot a bow you can draw while seated without going above your head. There is no over head space in the blinds to swing the bow up for your draw.

I like more power whenever possible, but never at the cost of sacrificing that effortless smooth draw that lets you make the shot bundled up with lots of warm clothing, or after sitting in the tree for 4 hours in 20 deg weather. Kneeling, sitting, or quickly drawing to make the shot with a minimal time to settle on target.

After a while you begin to realize that past 50-60 pounds in draw, and with great broadheads ( slicktricks) your close range skills far outweigh your draw weight and speed.

For those with both great skills and 70 plus draw weights ............ well those are elite men of Archery. I have not had the pleasure to meet very many of them in my career.

Good stuff JJ. I've seen links to guys over at AT who make custom limbs for bows. That might be an option for some. Like you said, a lot of bows will pull a tad heavier than advertised with the limb bolts bottomed out. So those puny 50-60# limbs will likely max out at 62# and sling an arrow a LOT faster than 60-70# limbs turned down to the same weight.

That is funny Winnie, I've seen that a time or two myself, and agreed JJ, there is an art to it, I got old Buds that can lay out and smoothly bench 350 lbs, I'm popping tendons and ligaments trying to do 275.

Gunner

JJHACK

There is no magic number, 45 to whatever will all get the job done. Manufactures settled on even numbers in ten pound increments for whatever reason.

Archery is no different then rifle we Americans love power even at the cost of accuracy. Bigger is always better is the mentality.

I remember the days of 100lb draws, I was a range rat at my local archery shop. I use to laugh at the guys buying new compounds. Back then 50-65% let-off was the norm. Guys were buying bows they could only pull back a handful of times. You could tell them till you were blue in the face its too much weight. They had to have it. With advancements in bow technology the weight of those days is long gone, but the mentality is still strong.

Both, your bow is a classic and your becoming a clasic also

The Jennings Elephant Bow.

I've seen many adult males and athletic, teenagers who COULD NOT pull back my compound bows when set at 70+lbs.
The best ones were the kids who had their girlfriend there and they couldn't pull it, then "old man" Phil does it, no problem.
At 50 yrs old, 70lbs isn't as easy as it was, but I can pull it easily.
Have not tried to lie down and try it (why?), but sitting.. hell ya! Multiple times.
70 lbs because... I can? Wrist strap releases are the key.
Hey, Ted Nugent kills everything with a 50Lb bow but he is now 63 I think? I've seen him get some piss-poor penetration on many of his shots, but he still gets his deer.
Pulling 70 lbs is the only way I can keep my older bows and have them fast enough for me.
2004 Mathews Legacy and IBO was 308. I want some speed and power, thats all. It's cheaper than a new bow.