Just would like some opinions. My drawing shoulder is starting to give me a little twinge. I am wondering how light I can go in weight for practicing and still have it translate to my hunting poundage.

Thanks

I shoot 55 lbs most of the year, but hunt with 63. Does not sound like much difference but for me it's at least several dozen shots per session.

I also find shooting 10-15 shots and quitting as long as everything was good is all I need most of the year. I don't often shoot 50 plus times per session any longer.

No need to kill my joints when everything is working. I'll admittedly get crazy when fooling around at longer ranges for fun. Shooting 50-80 yards for fun, I will often shoot more then normal.

If you've been shooting a lot stop for a bit. Heal.

I shoot 70# compounds and a 50# longbow. My advice would be not to shoot at all until your shoulder feels good and then shoot as often as possible, but never more than is comfortable. I only shoot what I hunt with.

For me it's hard to get a clean release on a low poundage bow and my shot sequence is just not the same.

I shoot 55# and start running into some trouble below about the 40# mark.

It really just depends on how you shoot.

I should add that the 63lb bow I hunt with never gets adjusted down. The 55lb draw is a completely different near identical bow.

I like having two ready to go that both get shot year round. Having the trusted backup is a nice too.

The wear and tear on my normal hunting bow is reduced as well. Once dialed in it stays that way for a very long time because I'm not shooting it thousands of times a year.

Slick, good planning.

NYStillHunter, I started shooting bows altered to use (International Limb Fitting) ILF limbs about eight years ago.

ILF limbs have a lot of R&D behind them and are very efficient in storing and releasing energy. For example, I used to shoot a Robertson Montana Falcon w/ limb tips that accepted fastflite string. It was 65# and shot a 620 gr. arrow at about 175-180 fps.

My altered Proline riser with Samick Masters limbs at 53# shot the same arrow about 170 fps. Same energy, pull 12# less, no brainer.

I'm back to shooting a set-up at 51# after having been down to 48# for a few years. I hunted elk with the 48# bow with no doubt about it's ability to do the job. I had moved on to a 520 gr. arrow going about 180 fps. with that rig.

If I only hunted whitetails up to 200# or so I would put together a bow in the 38-42# draw weight and be happy and confident in it's effectiveness. I live in Kansas and killed a buck that weighed 203 dressed so I continue to hunt with the bow I mentioned above.

There are quite a few production bows nowadays that take ILF limbs. Wood riser as well as metal riser. Affordable and/or high dollar, they make it a lot easier on the aging bowhunters out there. Like me.

I'm sure that most traditional bowhunters have at least heard about these systems. I know some have aversion to using equipment they don't see as oldschool trad too. Everyone should use what they are comfortable with and enjoy. I like the limitless options, efficiency and good manners that these set-ups provide.

http://www.dryadbows.com/ILF/ilfsystem.htm

http://www.morrisonarchery.com/html/morrison_bows.html

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/tradtech-titan-iii-19-ilf-takedown-riser.html

http://www.3riversarchery.com/DAS+Bows+Risers_i8147_variablekit.html

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bows/ilf-traditional-bows/ilf-take-down-limbs.html

Thank you for the replies. I am going to take some time off and see how it goes.
The ILF system looks interesting. I will read up on it. Thanks!

Glad to here it. Shooting with pain is counter productive.

I've been bow hunting since the mid 70's and just now got back into traditional archery, my compound is set at 63lbs but my new trad bow is a 35lbs( its real important to learn proper form and that can be hard to do pulling alot of weight

Great post 257, hard to unlearn bad habits and technique from being overbowed too. Go to just about any big trad shoot and watch 90% of 'em on the practice range.

Before I would recommend a lower weight, I'd ask first why is your shoulder hurting???? Are you pulling to much weight or is it how you are pulling the weight? Are you shooting to many arrows during your training session? Once you start down the slippery slope of lowering weight in a tradition bows it makes it much harder to get back. I commonly train with more weight than what I am going to hunt with. It does not make sense to practice with a 50# trad bow then jump to a 55#. You don't have the let off of a compound. So training with lower weight then jumping doesn't work. Training with heavier weight then dropping down does work.

No disrespect meant but that is exactly why someone needs to learn on low poundage. The low poundage will teach you a smooth release. Some of the mistakes you are making now with the heavier bow are from bad release. Learn to shoot 25-35 lbs well and it will make the groups even tighter with the heavier bow.

PS
I don't really see any reason to go beyond 55 lbs for larger game like elk and 45 for deer with a high efficiency bow.

"Studies recommend that an arrow deliver 25 to 39 foot-pounds of energy to kill animals with thin hides and light bones. If you're after large game with thick hides, your bow should deliver 40 to 80 foot-pounds of energy. If you seek boxcar-sized African animals, you'd better eat your Wheaties. Theoretically, you need 80 to 129 foot-pounds of energy."

Elk fall under Large game with thick hides...40 foot pound minimum. By my calculations, 37.42 ft-lbs., you are below the recommendations and would be wish to up your arrow weight or pull more weight to produce a faster arrow.

It's all about power gentlemen! You need it in order to drive that arrow deep enough.

So, my 65# bow shooting a 620 gr. arrow at 175 fps. (42.1 ft.-lbs.) is powerful enough, but my 48# bow shooting a 520 gr. arrow at 180 fps. (37.4 ft-lbs.) isn't? How about a 65# bow shooting a 620 gr. arrow at 165 fps? (37.5 ft-lbs.) hmmm, as long as it says 65# on the bow?

The "light" 48# bow has 4.7 ft-lbs. difference, about 9%. I don't buy it. Sharp arrows flying that fast just don't bounce off animals. They went through that 260 lb. whitetail I mentioned earlier like he was made of smoke, out the other side and on the ground.



IMO it doesn't matter how hard the bow is to draw back, just how efficiently it stores and releases energy to drive the arrow. Well, it doesn't matter unless it affects how well you can shoot the bow! A good "powerful" arrow in the guts or shoulder might matter.

I don't know what "studies" you quoted from above but razors slicing through flesh aren't easily translated into ft-lbs. numbers. They are not bullets, they kill by cutting vessels and causing massive hemmorage, not blunt force trauma or tissue disruption.

Ishi used a 45lb for just about everything, a 50lb for bear.

I know a bowyer that shot through a 4X4 bull elk with one of his bows just under 40 lbs. He wasn't using an extremely heavy arrow either. Shot placement is the most critical element and most archers shoot much better with lighter bows.

Personally, I don't recommend 35lb bows for elk but 50-55 lbs will be plenty for all but the largest or dangerous game.

257 roberts; "you are right on!! he is getting rifle hunting confused with bow hunting... differant concept"

Okay let me start by stating that I am not confusing the difference between rifle & bow hunting. I am pretty sure I know the difference.

The point I was trying to make is not how much your bow draws. Because that equals to nothing. With broadhead lethality studies it has been suggested that there is a minimum force required to get that sharp broadhead in to the vitals in order to cause hemorrhage. These studies have even broken down by cut on contact, punch on contact, & expandable. Which these have different power requirements i.e. Kinetic Energy, in order to drive the broadhead in to the vitals.

There has been a trend over the last 13 years that I have watched were Traditional archers are lowering their draw weights. The main reason for this is because of our aging traditional archers. I am a firm believer that a man or woman should, in a hunting situation, draw the maximum weight that he or she can accurately shoot. Now if you are below or at the minimum force required then you need to do several things to insure a humane kill. Some things I would look at are; distance the shot on game is taken, Extreme Fine Tuning of your equipment, change your broadhead to a long narrow High Mechanical Advantage head. ETC.

Will a 40 pound bow kill a elk? Sure but the archer better know what he/she is doing and thoroughly think the process out very carefully.

Glynn, Congrats on a very nice looking buck. A big bodied deer for sure and I'm glad to see the recommended KE worked for you. Since you were on the upper end of the thin hides and light bones category 25 to 39 foot-pounds of energy. You should have gotten a pass thru and help to prove my suggestion.
BTW, Glynn, If I owned a 65# recurve or longbow that shot a 9.5 grains per pound arrow weight at only 165 fps or 175 fps, I'd cut it up and throw it in the wood stove to heat my shop. Altering numbers to impress a point isn't needed. I said nothing about bow poundage in my earlier post.

These discussions are pretty common in the trad circles...

Seems like some of the guys using and advocating 65# bows can't draw them back past about 50# and they end up losing the power stroke, which is just as important for KE and momentum.

My advice is to shoot a bow # you can handle, with a decent arrow weight of 9 GPP, and go hunt. keep the ranges reasonable and hit the spot at the moment of truth.

ding ding ding...we have a winner, good post!

Seems like sound advice, ghost, but it certainly has flaws.

Lets take 257 roberts for an example. (I'm certainly not picking on him this is just an example.) He posted earlier he is shooting a 35# Samick bow. Lets just say that is all he can handle and he matches up a 315gr arrow and decides to hunt with that setup because that's what he has and all he can handle as far as bow poundage. What would you recommend he hunt with his setup, small game, medium game, or big game?

I'd certainly advise he stick to small game as I'm sure that would be your advice also. Because of broad statements folks that don't know go out with their 35# Samick bow and try to shoot deer with it and have very bad experiences. Educating is something I do on a daily basis when it comes to trad gear. And with out tangible numbers that we can understand and use as guide lines we are back to the stone age.

Now I also know a person that killed two bull elk with a 48# longbow last year. I also know that he is very very confident with tuning his equipment and chooses the other parts to the puzzle with extreme care. I also know he is a two time world champion elk caller and shot both bulls up close and personal. But as a blanket statement I would never, on an open forum, advise 48# bows to kill elk.

The suggestions of knowing your equipment numbers is certainly more tangible than just stating a 40# bow and 360 gr arrow is all you need to hunt with. I have these discussions all the time. Folks just don't get it. And just because I know some one that jumped off a bridge does that mean I should. Of course not. Different people have different skill levels that are learned over time. I didn't start hunting with a 90 pound bow. I started with 35# at the age of 5. Now that bow was 35# @ 28" and at that age I am certain I was not drawing the bow to 28". Maybe 23" and maybe pulling 25# as a guess but I killed a Canadian goose with a head shot. Once my folks gave the bow back to me and I grew taller, stronger, I finally worked out of that bow and went to heavier bows and so on. It was a progression. With today's Wal-Mart mentality I want it now & to do it now but I have no idea what I am doing. Is what gives us passionate bowhunters black eye's. Cause we are all lumped together. Blanketed advice does not help cure the black eye's that we get each year.

ding ding ding...we have a looser, good post!

Sorry, 257 roberts, if you act like a child I'll treat as one.

Yeah, I don't disagree.

There are minimums, but as long as a person meets the state mandated poundage requirement, it's not up to us to decide, is it.

Saw a guy awhile back on the forums that killed a big bull moose with a 41# recurve.

Do I agree with his choice of weapon? No. But it ain't up to me to decide what's right for everybody.

Thinking you need to shoot 60+lbs to hunt is just a bunch of macho bull created around an "I can draw more weight than you mentality" It's a worse detriment to trad archery than the guys who hunt elk with 35lb bows. A 35-40lb bow will kill very well when certain limitations and requirements are met. Shooting heavy bows will not make up for poor shot placement and it don't take a lot to shoot through an elk when you put the arrow in the right spot.

If you can accurately shoot a heavy bow, go for it, but don't tell me it's necessary.

What is your preferred setup for making bad shots on elk?

Yeah, actually it is up to us. Just because, the state you hunt in, applies a minimum doesn't mean you need to hunt with said MINIMUM required equipment.



Sir, at no time have I advised you to hunt with a heavy bow...now have I? I did not say you need to shoot any poundage, to the contrary, I suggested using a KE study as a guide line.



That, Sir, is just special. Your Momma would be proud.

If 48# will kill elk consistantly for one guy, why wouldn't it for anybody else?

I disagree. It's all about shot placement. Trying to up the arrow weight of a lighter bow to increase the energy works fairly well until you start going by a bunch of BS charts and wind up with an arrow with the trajectory of a hand thrown brick. At that point you have decreased your accuracy by making distance estimation too critical. There are many dynamics that determine penetration and heavy arrows and heavy bows are just 2, neither of which is worth a flip if you miss your target.

It will unless he reads too many BS charts.

I used to think like you, but I've evolved from that viewpoint some.

For instance, I hunted elk in CO last fall with two other trad guys and a compound shooter. The trad shooters both shot 65# bows and neither could hit schit. Why? Because it was simply just too much bow for either of them.

That ain't ideal.

For me personally just regarding my business animals the size of elk will rarely get a pass through with 45-50 lbs

There is a difference in what it takes to kill an animal that size and what it takes to find an animal that size after the shot.

What was it shot with? As I said a lot of factors determine penetration. A large contributing factor is how well the arrow is tuned to the bow. After that, broadhead design and arrow diameter are significant.

Okay, let me break this down for you. Poundage does not kill anything. Broadheads do the damage. Getting said broadhead thru the vitals is the key. Elk have large bones then deer, they also have thicker hides. It takes power to push the broadhead thru to the vitals. To cut all the veins, arteries, and capillaries. That is how broad heads kill stuff.

For an example and example only...If you have a 48# bow that is tuned to get the absolute best arrow flight coupled with a long narrow cut-on contact broadhead and a shooter that keeps his distance to less than 20 yards. With the ability to shoot said bow extremely accurate. Then you have a winner.

Some beginner archers do not know the first thing about getting PERFECT arrow flight from their bow. I'll even go as far as 50% of experience Trad Bowhunters don't know how to get their equipment tuned for optimum deliverance of the arrow. Then most beginners buy punch on contact heads (because it easier & faster) which require more force just to get thru the skin...not to mention the force needed to punch thru a rib on an elk.

And the information I posted above about suggested minimum KE to perfect arrow flight as a standard.

Now take a 70 pound bow that is shot buy a guy that thinks he knows what he is doing. But his arrow flight is wagging like a dogs tail will probably fail in penetration compared to the 48# bow that is tuned to perfection.

That's why I don't use POUNDAGE of BOW to determine if it is going to be able to deliver your arrow thru the vitals.



Mr Clark, you are more than welcome to disagree. But let me just say that I think you are missing my point. I agree with you that shot placement is VERY IMPORTANT. But it is not the end all. If your broadhead can not penetrate the hide, rib, and at least stop at at the off side ribs. Then your PERFECT SHOT PLACEMENT IS USELESS. And preferably I want an excite hole to spill more tracking blood on the ground.

Also who cares if you have a rainbow arch. Statistics show that most traditional bow kills are less than 20 yards. If you can't figure out your trajectories before you hit the timber you have no reason to be shooting at game, period.



Those BS charts are good for people that THINK they know everything there is to know. We would all be better educated if we looked at some things and understood before calling BS. I did not put together these charts...people smarter than I did those charts...I'm not selling anything to any body...I'm trying to educate people when it comes to Traditional Bowhunting.



No, Sir, that is not IDEAL. And a shame that those two gentlemen did not do their home work. I will be the first to admit we need to help as many, want be, bowhunters as we can. Heck your example is very similar to an example when I had three compound shooters at my shop ask if they could use my target for practice. I said of course. They started tearing it up. I watched a little and asked how many were hunting this year. All three proudly announced they were all ready to go. These three guys could not group two arrows together and needless to mention they never come close to the bulls-eye. But they were ready to go. I went to the shop and grabbed some arrows and a bow and asked if I could join them. Before I knew it they were done. Two came back later and asked if I would help them learn more about bowhunting. Of course I said yes. And them two fellas were successful that season with my help. Now the other fella was here just last month asking if I'd give him a hand.

We all could use a little help now and then. And educating is helping the majority of the time. So lend a hand to a struggling archer. Even if it is the harsh words of your not ready to hunt with that thing yet!

Another thing to discuss is bow efficiency. An upper end ILF rig of 45# will cast an arrow quicker than an old school 65# Hill longbow. Can o worms...

In the end, it's about shot placement, sharp heads and getting close.

Ghost, I'm pretty sure Jim is referring to his clients that hunt with him in Africa. And I'd put money on it they were using something more efficient than a high end ILF rig.

Are we talking about trad bows or not?

Ghost, it's all relevant. The more archers we have either carrying stick or compound the better it is for all of us. I have no problems with compound guys...there's more compounds sold annually then there are stick bows include high end ILF bows. Which some don't consider ILF bow Trad bows.

Oh I'm not a trad snob. On the contrary, I think the sport would be better served if more trad guys would admit they can't shoot for schit and go to a compound.

Trad ain't easy.

WB
I agree with a lot of what you have said in your subsequent posts but the first thing you posted here was that certain KE requirements had to be met and archery was all about power. All that does is promote a false confidence in arrow and bow weight. What I would advocate is to shoot a legal poundage as much as you can comfortably shoot and concentrate on a sharp, accurate, and properly tuned arrow. I think trad archers would be much better served with that philosophy than relying on a chart which gives false confidence, since those who have confidence in their rig wouldn't be concerned with it in the first place.

Well, why didn't you say that?

Exactly!
This post sounds a complete opposite to your first. There must be some misunderstanding here.

He just forgot Communications 101...speaking to the dumbest guy in the room (me).

Absolutely. Traditional is not easy. But with a little help in understanding from more proficient archers I think it serves us all in the long run.

And turning the not so good of a shot with trad equipment to compounds won't help either.

Trad is a long dedicated journey. There are no short cuts. There's a lot to master and some will never but I will always help some one that is struggling. Some folks think trad is easy & simple and that is why they hunt with a compound. Well I've dedicated my life to recurves and longbows. And I'm here to tell you it ain't easy. Hunting with trad gear is hard and sometimes disappointing. But if you keep on honing your skills you will be successful. If you're having problems shooting, search out a shooting coach, can't sharpen heads or get perfect arrow flight. Find someone to help. And listen to what is being taught and learn. And by all means do think you know it all. Cause the folks that think they know it all are usually less then adequate. In fact I learned something today. That most of you that debated what I pointed out just did not get it. And I need to learn how to communicate better. In which I certainly will try harder.

Telling someone that doesn't shoot every well to go to a compound isn't the answer either. Or telling a guy that doesn't shoot a compound very well that he should try gun hunting instead is not the answer. A little education and help from you might just save our hunting seasons.

Just food for thought fellas! Minimum Bow Weights and Minimum Arrow Weights don't kill. It's the broadhead that does the killing but you gotta get it there before it can do it's work.

Don't feel bad Bill. A forum such as this just isn't the proper venue to discuss everything pertinent to any issue. It is designed more for quick sniping comments than in depth discussion, so a bunch of us are quick on the draw and too quick to come to wrong conclusions. Sorry about that.

I just viewed your profile...Jim built my first custom bow in '85, or so.

Mr Clark, requirements should read suggestions. Nothing as you know is in hard stone. But if we don't have a starting point then we are guessing that my 40# bow (recurve or longbow) with a 360 grain arrow will kill an elk. That is my states minimum requirement to hunt big game here. And frankly it's just wrong. Based on the above posts that I have explained not so well. But if we have a targeted suggested minimum of KE then we have some thing tangible to work towards. Just to say 40# will kill an elk is just wrong. And that is my point.

And archery is about power/force.

Written communications are the least effective.

You are not supposed to know who I am in real life. But since you have mentioned it. Yes, I help bowhunters from all walks of life. Sometimes I just can't type exactly what I am trying to convey which isn't based on BS charts. Real life experience in traditional bow hunting for over 30 years.

In 1985 Jim built me two identical Legends 70# @ 29" 64". I was hooked on his design from the get go. Had a bunch of other custom bows through the years but my got to bows where Bracks. Opened up in 2001 building Jim's designs after buying the rights & equipment but I needed to add higher efficiency bows to the line so I started designing my own stuff. Seems like such a shame I have to keep up with the market cause Jim's designs just worked. But I build faster more efficient and fancier bows these days. Guys seem to like'm okay. Don't really build much of Jim's designs these days. One of these days I hope to build a commemorative Legend.

Just do me a favor, don't tell any body I'm here, it's my hide away.

Well, yes and no.

It's also about shot placement,sharp heads and getting close.

It's a complicated subject. I used to openly tell people that I thought they were under bowed...now I'm more likely to tell them they're over bowed.

My true feeling on it is that any grown man with some hand/eye coordination can learn to shoot a medium poundage bow and become proficient with it, if he's willing to spend the time.

Ron laclair won the world longbow championship shooting 80#, and people kill stuff with 40# bows.

Like I stated earlier, it's complicated.

Hahahaha! I just looked at your profile Wild Bill.

Now I feel like an idiot.

Please don't! I think we had a good conversation. A lot of good points were made and hopeful more than I learned something.

It's cool to talk with someone of your stature. Very cool.

Of your stature?

None of what you've heard is trued! Dude, I'm just an old guy trying to make ends meet like everybody else. I don't have no stinking stature.

Hey, Mr. Clark, next time you see Rod Jenkins tell him I said hi for me would ya! Been a while since I've chatted with Rod. Good man he is, help me with my target panic challenges a couple years back.

Oh yeah, you do. Trust me.

I sure will Bill. I didn't see him at the shoots last year. I hurt my shoulder and didn't shoot at all last year. It's getting better and I'm shooting a 35 lb bow again now. Trying to avoid surgery. Rod has coached me some and gave me a lot of great advice. Probably helped my shooting more than anyone else. I know him through another friend and we talk a little every time we see each other but I am not a close friend of his. Feel free to call me Randy.

That's MY specialty.

I don't know Bill but I hear he is a good guy. If he is anything like Rod, sitting him on a pedestal is embarrassing. I doubt he would have the reputation he has if he liked it up there.

Understanding Arrow Penetration

Kind of late to the party here, this is an excellent article regarding arrow penetration. It is too long for me to over simplify here but thought you all might find it interesting. Arrow weight and momentum, coupled with adequate trajectory and sharp cut on contact broadhead equal penetration.

To the original point 45# (probably less would be ok, but this is the legal minimum here) is plenty of draw weight for any deer, the arrow and broadhead well matched to the bow, are more important than a draw weight number.

Yup, TakeEm, that articles been around for awhile. And pretty much destroys the KE theory. But at no time has Mr. Ashby come up with a tangible number that can be utilized for new archers coming into traditional or compound hunting.
Do I agree with everything else MR. Ashby writes. Most but not all. Until someone actually comes up with a solid momentum number, which he hasn't, then the best we have is the KE numbers.

Just to add to the conversation, I know that a 1500 grain fishing arrow, sporting a conical barbed point and pulling a string, will penetrate an alligator gar much better than a (well tuned) 450grn carbon sporting a sharp two-blade broadhead. (Same fish/same bow)

Yep, same with 30lb armor scaled carp under two feet of water.

Fish arrow goes right through, aluminum arrow with a broad head, barely penetrates

A heavier arrow should always penetrate better, everything being equal, and make your bow quieter, but it's only useful when it doesn't limit your range or accuracy. Everything is a trade off. For 3D I shoot 45lbs and just over 5 gpp arrows at 215 fps but those foam deer are an easy kill. I much prefer a faster flatter arrow to deeper penetration for foam.

LOL. My range and accuracy is severely limited, no matter what weight I shoot! That's why I love traditional, as well as modern, equipment. One is about how far I can shoot, and the other is about how close I can get.

Carbon foam limb cores?

5gpp?
wow
what bow?

Yes carbon and foam. I shoot a Spigarelli 650 and Winex limbs for targets. It is very fast and stable.

I'm thinking of getting an ILF rig.

So versatile.

What did you have in mind? Hunting, targets or a combination?

Hunting mainly. Im a backyard shooter but wouldn't mind some light weight limbs just for fun and practice.

Thinking about a Titan riser, not sure about the limbs yet.

I like the Titan. Winex limbs are the best I have shot at any price point. Rod Jenkins confirms that opinion as of last year and he gets to shoot a lot more top end limbs than I do. I might pick up a new 19" Titan to play with. If you get a target ILF riser, get a barebow riser. The others are designed to be balanced with a long stabilizer. The barebow risers are balanced without one.

I've heard great things about Winex. also heard great things about the BF Extremes, but they're pretty spendy.

I also really like the looks of the new Hoyt bows and attachment system, but it sucks that it's not ILF...which was ultimately the point I guess.

I've even considered Warfing an old Pro Vantage riser that my Dad shot with back in the day.

PSE ILF Limbs

If you get a chance to try these from PSE I think you will really enjoy the velocity they produce. Especially if you thin out the tips a little. The fastest ILF limbs I've seen coupled with a Titan riser.

Ghostinthemachine, keep an eye on a few different places and you could get lucky. I got a set of Border CXG's for 200 bucks brand new when he ran a clearance sale and my buddy alerted me to a set of BF Extremes at Altnernative Services for 300 bucks new.

Any mid priced carbon/wood limb is going to be OK for just about anything.

Don't forget warfed risers for a hunting bow either. You can get them in the 100-130 dollar range. I have had 4 hunter supreme/rambo risers, a Proline and a Black Bear all converted to ILF. Great hunting set-ups for less than 400 bucks total.

I have a pair of Samick Masters that I used for many years that are just setting here. 44# on a 23" riser and an old set of Hoyt carbon/woods 46# on a 23" riser too. The Hoyts need a detent and spring for the dovetail. They both would be 2# heavier on a 21" riser.

Would send you either one for the cost of shipping if you wanted to try ILF. You could keep them if you like it.

That's a heck of an offer by Glynn. I have a set of the Masters and they are awesome limbs.

I shoot Trad bow a lot - 2-300 shots per week all year around. Most of my bows are in the low 30# range. My current favorite is a Tolke Whip Longbow 35#@30" - 33#@28 my draw. I shoot 300gr carbon arrows out of it and get about 160fps. I can shoot that bow 100 times and still do it with good form and control. I have tried more and less weight but 30-35# is just about right for me. I can draw, hold, aim, release easily and without straining. When it comes time to hunt stepping up to 45# is no big deal, still shoot with the same form and accuracy but not for as many arrows. I have a beautiful Bear Polar 32#@28" 66"AMO that is in amazing shape. If you are interested let me know. This stuff is way to fun to be pooped after a handful of arrows.