I have been archer, hunter with bows, arrow and tackle maker for over 50 years.
Hunted several dozen big game species successfully and truckloads of small game and birds.

I'd like to be more involved with this small forum but there doesn't seem to be much of anything conversed about that I can relate to or understand.
What happened to the simple longbow or recurve..wood bows and wood arrows?
All the arrow hype?
Shucks..a matched set of POC or white birch or doug fir wood shafts with 145-160 grain blunts and two blade broadheads always did the job for me an thousands of other archer-hunter for over centuries..

Reading these threads it seems some habe made a simple, rewarding sport for the target archer or hunter into some maze of contraptions and snake oil salesman hype.

Any of you shoot one arrow at unknown yardage in variable light, up or down or flat and HIT a one pond coffe can( or the kill zone on most critters) consistently out to 50 yards?
IF not why not?
Throwing money and technology at this ancient art and discipline or shooting accurately for hunting and sport is not the answer.
Do a search on Gilman Keasey and see what an archer can do..
Or Howard Hill.or Fred Bear..or Ron LaClair for that matter..

BTW, what inell is a whiskerbiscuit..:) jim

Jim, you are a true Archer!!! And should be very proud of that!! I am a hunter! And proud of it! I wish I could shoot a long bow or a recurve like you. Hell if it wasn't for all this fancy bull [bleep], peep sites, releases, 3,4,5 pin sites, crazy ass whisker biscuits I wouldn't be able to hit the neighbors house at 50 yds much less a coffee can. But it's still a bow, has a string, flings an arrow and you still gotta hit the target. You have learned a true art form!! I admire the fact that you have spent years upon years to perfect such an art! Me I barely have time to take a shower before 10:00 at night! Most days I got three kids playing three sports in three different cities!!! It's alot of work. But I do manage to pick up my compound almost daily for a dozen shots to keep myself sharp. I mostly hunt with a bow because the season is such a good one. Less people, more elk!! But every time I go out I fall a little more in love with the idea ok taking game with a bow and arrow! I may have all the new fancy gadgets and bow that's easy to hold at full draw, but most of all I do have discipline and the upmost respect for the game I hunt. I can get as close as you or not as close as you to the game I hunt. Bottom line I still gotta put an arrow in the same spot. I just do it a little different than you. That dosen't make it wrong or right. It's almost like saying that the mailman ain't worth a pinch of [bleep] cause he dosen't ride a pony. 50 years ago we didn't have music on CD'S or telephone's we can carry in our pockets. But that dosen't make it wrong. If you think that because I do it different makes me not disciplined you are saddly mistakin my friend! I live for the challange!!! This is only my third year bow hunting and I've yet to take an elk. But I've never had more fun trying. CD

Jim, I admire men like you, no kidding. One of my mentors on rifles and muzzleloaders was also like you. He is long gone now and was never really known for his crafts. He was a gunsmith of the old school. He was a proficient traditional black powder hunter, he was a true woodsman and sportsman and he was an archer...his ashes were spread from his favorite deer stand just a few years ago...

He too couldn't see the gadgetry involved with archery these days...same as with firearms. He taught me a lot over the years and then I lost contact with him by moving away. The one thing I always regreted since his passing is that I never had the time to let him teach me how to really loose an arrow with a stick bow...he was a master at it. He outshot me several times with me and my speed bow. It was humbling. I've played with a couple recurves out of memory of him but just can't quite get it, at least to the proficiency needed to ethically hunt with one. My hats off to you Jim, you and Howard Hill and the like...

Someday before I go...I will make my own long bow and start to practice with it, just cause it's the right thing to do...

I hunt with a recurve and POC's. My broadheads are 145 grain ribteks or grizzlies--both have been nothing short of stellar. I probably couldn't hold my own much with the field archers of the 60's and such but I practice hard for a variety of hunting shots at ranges out to 25 yards. My distance shooting is done to make my hunting ranges appear shorter and easier.

But you could actually ask your question on a lot of traditional forums on the web. I'm seeing many so called trad guys who are getting pretty high tech about everything. Its almost like Orwell's, Animal Farm. And I know some compounders who manage to keep things pretty simple. Without going into what a whisker biscuit is (I suspect you actually know), its much simpler than many plunger rests.

The bow itself doesn't make archery simple, pure, or rewarding. Neither does the arrow. The person behind the tool determines the degree of simplicity or complexity. And that part of the sport hasn't changed in over fifty years.

Well, last eve, I didn't intend to denigrate anyone's chosen tackle or persuits..just feeling a bit anachrinistic I guess...
I agree that many of the traditional archery sites have drifted more and more toward technology rather than helping folks toward better form and simple but effective equipment matchups for the tasks.

What IS a whisker biscuit anyhow..??..:)

Speed doesn't kill, and neither do dead heavy arrows.
A well placed arrow( there's really only that ONE that matters for the game shot) with sufficient energy and ability to cut-penetrate and impart that energy well are what makes the archery kill.

I practice at longer yardages..out to 100 yards..
I do not HUNT or shoot game at those distances..
The practice is for building strength, resiliancy, concentration.
Shooting the vertical line consistently..Knowing in your mind where the arrow will be in it's flight to the mark out to your killing zone distance..
Eliminating every equipment variable you can so there is nothing left for the great shot but the man putting his back and heart into the shot..
It's all fun..The arrow's flight will always captivate the archer's mind and imagination..
Hitting well is best...:)..
This bow is [email]77@30"[/email] repro of a 50's Nels Grumlet static bow that I made a few years back...jim

Archery like many other things has changed from what it used to be, that's for sure. Todays average Sportsman has many Irons in the fire in that he finds many different ways to enjoy the outdoors. The one thing that hasn't changed is there's still only 24 hours in a day. That fact limits the time most people have to pursue a particular sport be it bowhunting, gun hunting, fly fishing or whatever.

People have found many ways to compact their leisure time so that they can participate in more outdoor activities. Modern compound bows take much less time to learn to shoot than traditional longbows and recurves so understandably it is more popular.

Having said that, there is a growing number of bowhunters that are choosing to increase the challange of bow hunting by doing it the hard way.

Compton Traditional Bowhunters is a National traditional bowhunting organization for those that would like to accept that challange, check them out.

www.comptontraditional.com

A Whisker Bisquit is a an arrow rest that is basically a ring that has coarse hair pointing inside of it with a hole in the center for the arrow to pass through. The fletching goes through the hair when you shoot, but it is stiff enough to hold the arrow in place when at draw. Do a search for Carolina Archery Products Whisker Bisquit.


SS

Jim, very nice indeed ! Do you have a close up of it ?
BTW: all a traditionalist needs to know about a "whisker bisquit" is that it won't give you rug burn !! Big smile here ! BT53

I have a number of closeup pics of the 3 Nels Grumly /Bear statics I built as well as a complete pictorial from press construction thru the building..jim

and another..

Jim,
A true classic. Great color and warmth.
In the late 60's, I killed two of the unluckiest blacktail deer to ever walk in Oregon. I used an old York 55# recurve and a Bear razor Head. I also missed an entire life time limit of deer with that bow. My hats off to people with that kind of dedication. BT53

Good to see a fellow traditionalist. Been making my own longbows for 15 years, but shooting recurves primarily '59
Bear Kodiak Replicas by Ed Holcomb. I shoot everyday and am still trying now to cure everyones Target Panic and write about it some day. I shoot PO Cedar and Carbon arrows using a style I call Gapstinctive, basically what Howard Hill did. Like you I shot a recurve many years ago then got away from it when the compound came on the scene. The ugly bow will not grace my bow rack, ever. I m 60 now and enjoy the stick bow, flyfishing and iron sights on my rifles. Keep it simple and the enjoyment seems to be much more pleasing overall. I shoot balloons out to 80 yards for fun and 3 D for humility. I plan on continuing for as long as I m able to anchor and loose a shaft and watch its arc into the target.

Cheers, Estacado

Estacado, and others,
I don't believe for a minute that basic archery will pass from the scene..and it is good to hear from and meet a few who still appreciate and enjoy the challenge of a man, his bow and arrow and the well-sent shaft to the mark.

Show others and teach as you can..Despite this get it done fast with no thought or effort world, there is still a place for hand crafted archery " tools", a man's(or woman's) sinew,bone, heart and mind in this sport.jim

Jim, I agree, "basic" archery will always have a fascination for those that shoot the feathered shaft.

Maurice Thompson said it in his book, "The Witchery Of Archery" over a century ago,

"As long as the new moon returns in the heaven a bent, and beautiful bow, so long will the fascination of archery keep hold of the hearts of men"

I started shooting a Fred bear deerslayer in '66 .
traded an iver Johnson SXS for the bow, quiver, arrows, homemaded fletching burner, and a whole mess of shafts, fletch, nocks, and other stuff fforr building.

Although I still own a lot of traditional archery gear, I can't shoot anymore becuase of nerve damage in the deltoid area
( from work, not archery!).
I will not however, shoot a compiund.
Tried that once, it's not for me.
I grew up on Fred Bear , Ben Pearson and Howard Hill, and have fond memories of my first kill and my early trophies I won in competitions.

It was a good time in my life......
Cat

I shoot traditional instinctive only. My preference is for recurves.
My current bow is a 1967 Browning Nomad. She still scales 57# @30". I had some Flemmish twist strings made up a few years ago. I need to try to find some PO shafts, mine are getting dried out.
I can still shoot sitting flat on the ground. I can still hit a 6" circle at 25 yds., with my body facing away from the target.

Some people have acused me of being a "snap shooter", in the past. I actually draw and release in one continuos motion. I shoot by the same method you use to toss something to someone and learned the same way.

I was taught to start by shooting at a bale of hay in the dark, with only a shielded candle to light the bale and never shoot twice from the same spot. After a few weeks the arrows just started to group. Then I placed a thumb tack in the bale to begin training my brain to "pick a spot". I shot from every position you can imagine holding a bow, kneeling, sitting and from treestands.
It took about a year at 6-8 hours per week to learn to shoot this way.

Btw Jim, I still have 7 " BUTTERFIELD BRUTES" in useable condition

Well I started out on a 45# Indian recurve around 1973 and used it for about 5 -6 years....dropped out of it some.....took archery in college, and got into it some more....got back into it more "full time" 7 - 8 years ago ( I know, alot of gaps there..) with a PSE compound and am proficient with it up to 60 yards....now I have a 35# Indian Deerslayer on its way to my house thanks to ebay ($53) and am looking forward to getting back into to the traditional approach....in the mean time, I have also started my twin 7 year olds shooting the red ryder and a Fred Bear bow 2 years ago.....that is the most enjoyable part of all of it for me.....I can shoot all day and not come near as close to having the enjoyment as their days with the bow ....Jim, it sure would be a joy to be able to go out and shoot with someone like ya to take the bend out of the constant learning curve...I hope there are plenty of young folks in your life to share with....I had someone take me under their wing back in the day and also told me about the archers bible. What a great tool that was, and still is I guess.....thanks for the post....Boots

Hey guys,
I too am a traditional archer/hunter, and would rather set myself on fire than hunt with anything else. Not that there's anything wrong with the rifle, compound, etc., it's just not my bag. There is something addictive about watching a brightly capped and crested arrow arching toward the target. As is there something addictive about being 50 yards from a buck on a stalk, and knowing you have 30 yards to go. And the bows can be GORGEOUS! If you don't drool looking at a bow crafted from Bocote...well...there breathes a man with a soul so dead... I used to shoot a compound and while I enjoyed it, it does not even come close to the satisfaction I feel from a well placed shot from my recurve.
My main bow (I have 4) is a Shafer Silvertip built for me by Dave Windauer. It is Zebrawood top to bottom, and is gorgeous. Dave and his wife, Beth, if I remember her name correctly, are wonderful people and a joy to deal with.
To those interested in getting into traditional achery, I would highly recommend G. Fred Asbell's book "Instinctive Shooting". Read it a couple of times, buy a cheapie recurve to get started, and never look back.

Thanks,
Justin

Just came in the mail a Owl bow, 60' long 49lbs at 28 hackberry wood sinew backed with rattlesnake skin covering about the nicest self bow I think I have ever seen, and its fast, and very quite, look out deer. John

I agree with everything you wrote on your post! I have been a recurve shooter for the last 9 years after spending 12 years as a compound shooter. So I think I have a pretty good idea about both types of bows! After a recent work related injury to my right elbow it seems that I can no longer shoot my Black Widow as well as before. I recently bought a new compound and for better or worse I'm still a bowhunter! My point is we are all archers regardless of the equipment we use!!! Just enjoy the challenge and stick together! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> John

I went the route from traditional archery here in Iowa back in the late sixties to compounds and back to recurves again, two of which I have now. I'm not quite a "purist", making my own cedar arrows, my bows, arrowheads, etc. but I'm definitely enamored of beautiful woods, a reusable steel head, and turkey feathers, wool clothes, and the experience of the hunt. My latest fun hunt is turkeys with a recurve out of a blind.

Without intending to offend anyone, I feel that "the industry" has led us down the road to Mr. Gadgets house in bowhunting to bring more people in with the promise of quicker success. There is no argument that some of the equipment is of high quality and works but also much is gimmickry and has been marketed like we'd bait a critter; there's the sometimes unspoken but often the blatant promise that "this" will make you a better, more "successful" bowhunter. The emphasis has been I feel heavily weighted toward defining success as killing game with perhaps the least investment in time and practice and without noticeable regard to the other aspects of the hunt.

So again, no offense to all you pulley-'n-cable-guys but another element is how I look on a beautiful recurve or long bow much as the art that is beautiful walnut mated with functional steel making a fine rifle. You must admit there's no way you'd call a compound beautiful, functional maybe but not beautiful.

And as Jim mentioned, being able to put a bunch of arrows in a coffee cup sized area at 25 yards - or further - is quite an accomplishment that requires admittedly more time but that contributes to extreme satisfaction in a one shot kill on game when it comes. This is not to mention the complex tuning, possible breakage of parts, jolted or bent pins, the need for a range finder, and the need for deliberate aiming with the "bow" in always in a vertical attitude that comes with a compound.

Well, to each his own and again this is not intended to inflame but is only my journey and present perspective.

I do aree completely! A compound bow does not have the romance,tradition, and most of all the "Soul"of a finely crafted recurve or longbow! If I'm able I will continue to shoot my traditional bows but as of now it looks like my compound will keep me hunting! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> John

I began with traditional in the 60's, went to a compound briefly, but returned to traditional in the mid 70's. A disc went haywire (disc replaced, but still numbness in triceps) and ended archery for me. I hope that some point in the future I can at least get comfortable enough to draw a lightweight bow for small game. I can't force myself to use a compound or crossbow. Just have too much love for the romance of archery. I sold my last two bows a couple of years ago, boy do I miss them....

Have read many a post and heard of many an archer who due to some injury, quit shooting the bow, or went to lighter weight or compound archery so as to keep shooting..

I'm getting old..:) Old enough to be Dad to many of you..
Six years back, due to an injury, I had two cervical vertabra discs removed.
By the time I told the drug peddlers at the HMO that drugs weren't working, I'd lost 70% of the muscle mass on my left-bow arm and shoulder.

I couldn't lift and hold a coffee cup...
After the few weeks of recovery, I couldn't do a single push-up. let alone draw any of my 70# plus hunting longbows or recurves.

Well..that sucked and I refused to just die and quit.

Worked out with pieces of rubber band and in the interim, built myself a new hunting static recurve based on the Nels Grumley-Bear Deerslayer model of the 50's.
77#@29"..
52 pieces of material went into the bow..Glass laminate.

I named it 'Molon Labe' which is the english rendition of the Greek words spoken by the Spartan King who was defending Thermopayle against the invading Persian army who outnumbered the Greek defenders 100:1.

After a few days where the Spartans piled the corpses of the invaders in the pass the invading King sent emissaries to the Spartans and told them they would be spared IF they threw down their weapons and surrendered.

Molon Labe was the Spartan King's simple reply to the emissary..which loosely translated says:

"Come and take them.."

And so I am now still shooting my heaviest hunting bows as well or better than ever, refusing to become crippled..

Learn to shoot the line.This involves strength, stability,concentration and properly matched-tuned bow & shaft.

Once achieved, then it is just a matter of bringing the bow up and allowing mind and eye to properly judge the distance and make the loose well with proper elevation.

If the archer cannot eliminate the lateral deviations of his arrow flight in his shooting and shoot the vertical line to the mark, he'll struggle as archer and hunter always...

This is not impossible nor difficult but it is a first requisite for good archery..jim

I hunted with one of Paul's bow for 12 years. He built a great bow and was a fine bowhunter. I was very sad to learn of his death some years back.

Jim, we might know each other, as we both have similar archery tastes. I'm Gene Langston, former editor of Primitive Archer, and make a lot of my own stuff. In fact, I just a few weeks ago finished a true English yew longbow, using yew from Oregon, or perhaps Washington. It's a beaut.

I used to beat the drum for a return to recurves, longbows, and even self-bows, but it ain't gonna happen. I have never, and never will, shoot a carbon arrow from any bow I own. That's my line, and I dont' mind if others shoot whatever.

My buddy has killed a truckload of animals using longbows and recurves, wooden hickory bows, wood arrows, and now he's gone to those carbon arrows. Why? I dont' know, considering his success with wood arrows.

My other buddy killed a cow elk with a 55 pound hickory bow he'd made himself and a wood arrow, got penetration up to the fletching, on a self-guided hunt. A good sized cow. Took him a couple of days to pack out the meat.

It's proven over and over than archery hunting should be close.

Gene, I think we have at least crossed cyber-trails when I used to post on Stickbow forums a few years back.

Nothing quite like a well made wood bow and well matched wood arrows both for aesthetic qualities an for the hunting..

There's still quite a few folks who appreciate such 'anachrinistic' things, but most of the merchandising and slick mags promote more hi tech complicated archery..even tho the actual hunting efficacy is not much enhanced IF a fellow likes to shoot and is diligent in his archery..jim

Shoulder problems and a lack of time to build a all-natural recurve bow now have me shooting a Jack Howard recurve.

The bow I finished is about 65 pounds, and while I can shoot it a little, my rotator cuff won't take too much.

Jim,

My son is shooting some Keasey kids arrows that a friend gave to me. All he said was that he had to shoot them and use them. I couldn't save them or sell them.

I think they came from Vern Struble to my friend, and where Vern got them I don't know.

I am fairly new at this archery thing. Started in 1985 with a compound. I got disenchanted with all the gadgets in 1994 and went traditional. I currently own self bows, longbow, 50's style recurves, recurves. I currently have cane, wood, fiberglass, aluminum, and carbon arrows in my shop.
I have tip weights from 75 to 250gr. I have B-50 and fast flite string material. I have commercial feathers, and feathers that I ground myself from turkey wings.

I have made my own archery equipment. Everything from bows and arrows to accessories.

I want to be hunting. I prefer bowhunting, but I love hunting.
I still haven't lost the amazement that comes with killing a animal with traditional archery equipment or with any weapon for that matter.

So, to the original question of what has happened to archery?
1. Greed
2. Time constraints
3. Trophy hunting
4. Lack of patience (I want it all, and I want it NOW!) Instant bowhunterfication.

I taught bowhunter education for almost 10 years to over 1000 people. What I experienced is what made me give it up.
The new "bowhunter's" already know it all from magazines, videos and pro-shops. Those three all have $$$ first and foremost on their agenda's.

I served on my State's Bowhunting organization board for 10 years. I'll be honest, the politics ruined my enjoyment. Just the last couple of years have I been able to purely enjoy bowhunting.

I was even involved in one of the national Traditional organizations that started up a few years back. Something didn't feel right, so I never really got too involved. I don't regret that one bit.

I still get a kick out of intoducing archery to kids, the smiles are priceless. They haven't been ruined yet. They just love to see the arrow fly. They could care less what bow or arrow they are shooting.

CRS, I knew Vern Struble and spent many an enjoyable day with Gilman Keasey down at his home in Corvallis before he passed away.

I still have a few of Gilman's kid's arrows, which were perfectly made and matched..and still fly well.Few know that Gilman also was a supplier of some very fine black walnut gunstock blanks to custom crafters over the years..and also that he was an ardent grower of Daffodils down on the Alsea..

Visited Chet Stevenson and Earl Ullrich back in the 70's and got a bow given me by Chet's wife after he died..
Earl taught me much about the selection and cutting of great pacific yew for longbows..

Glad to see that there are still a few archers out there who appreciate some of the old timers and their contributions to the sport..and craft-art of traditional bows and achery in simplest-effective form.

Stay with it, you and Gene L.
There's a whole generation of archers and youngsters who need to have your input and help..jim

I think that the reason the compound bow is so popular is because most people believe it is more accurate than a longbow or recurve. That may be true on the target range but for hunting, a traditional bow with it's simplicity is superior in my opinion. You can make shots with a traditional bow that you can't with a compound. Here's an example of shooting at moving targets and from unorthodox positions with a longbow.

http://www.tradgang.com/videos/ronlaclair/ronl-4.wmv

http://www.tradgang.com/videos/ronlaclair/ronl-2.wmv

Ron, Great vid clips!
I have often demonstrated shooting when laying down on my back where many would have the arrow just fall off the bow..:)
Now I don't take any hunting shots from such a position, but the goal was to teach that with proper form and a deep hook of hand on string, the string is 'rolled' with the draw and will keep the arrow on the bow ever when inverted..

Nothing like a stickbow for fluid and continuous shooting...It'll also teach any archer to put his body in the bow, rather than just draw with the arms as many compound shooters do..
Attached is a photo of me and Gilman Keasey about ten years back just prior to his death in his cluttered shop down in Corvallis.
I saw his two Dallin medals for winning the National archery champinship shoots..He built his own bows and arrows for those tournaments.
The man was a great archer and crafter..
When asked once about his choice of arrow plates on his yew target bows being mother of pearl and wasn't they 'noisy', he said...no, not if your arrows are right and your loose is good..:)
So much about archery has been forgotten that once was known.. jim

and an older picture of Gilman Keasey back when he was in his prime...

The arrows and bows of his I have and have seen all had his mark on them:
a hand drawn skeleton KEY with a Z in black india ink...Jim

I've got a book Gilman Keasy co-authored with somone from the University of Oregon on archery. I also have a book by him, I think, in soft cover...it's short, more of a pamphlet, as I recall.

I've got several old archery books, most of them target archery. They're interesting to read, but they each and all restrict the woods used for bows to yew an osage. But that's becaues they were using English or American-English bows.

Hickory, in a flat bow, is at least the equal of Osage. You just have to dry it out more, and probably make it wider. Hickory is a fine bow wood, as is ash, black locust, and most hard, dense woods. Yew and osage are efficient at a higher moisture rate than these "white woods," and you have to dry them out with a heat box.

I prefer working with Osage and Yew, as that's what I've worked with most. But I've seen hickory bows as short as 62" and at 55-60 pounds that exhibited zero string-follow due to careful drying and very careful tillering.

Stick bow archers.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Get some wheels, some fiberglass and take that shot!!
Technology is the answer!! More more more!! I need some carbon fiber light optical whisker twangers for my 3 pound Bowtech..(really) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

By the way, I'm CWG on ArcheryTalk.com, Great site for archers...even those stick and catgut twingers! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
A guy I hunt with is a stick bow guy, hell, some of my best friends are stickbow guys..I just wouldn't want one marrying into the family, thats all!

Claude,
Enjoyed your website...You are seemingly as anachronistic-stubborn and dedicated to properly selected-seasoned-crafted wood as some of the 'stickbow' builders I've known..:)
Some very nice work, BTW..

BTW, never like the term 'stickbow'..as a great WOODEN OR WOOD-COMPOSITE hunting bow is light years from a 'stick'..

Always called them "bows" and the sport "archery"..:) jim

Claude,
That's funny, I kind of feel the same way about training wheels. They are ok to play with, but you don't want your friends seeing you with one. Real bowhunters don't need no stinkin wheels.

Bottom line is the fact that traditional bowhunting takes a tremendous amount of work/time to build all of your own equipment and become proficient in it's use.

I say it's the person behind the bow more than anything. There are "modern" bowhunters that I prefer to hunt with over some "Traditional" bowhunters.

I have no idea what happened to archery, but I'm following you fellas. In fact, I have been for years, I just now know that it's y'all that I'm following.

I gave up wheels, cams, pulleys, cables, sights, crap... in favor of a stick (two, actually - two old '70s vintage Bear recurves) and arrows (Easton Classics right now; until I graduate to wood), cut-on-contact points (Zwickeys, of course), and...

I LOVE IT!

I cannot, will not, shall not go back.

Archery is about getting close... and about much more... if we let it be.

Thanks, y'all, and it IS being passed on.

Now, to get wildswalker (Roy) over here... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

For a pure adrenyline (SP?) rush nothing beats the THWACK of a shaft hittin' the sweet spot. No rifle or handgun made can replace that for me.

I dread the day I can't pull back a bow......

I've come full circle on Bow Hunting, having hunted my heart out with several wheel bows, and having started with a $5 recurve that didn't fit me nor could I figure it out at the time. My latest wheel bow is one of those expensive Mathews with all the built in technology this ol' mountain boy can stomache. It drives a hunting shaft at 295 fps and I have been able to hit a snuff can at 45 yards with it. Practice.....

I hunted last season with it thrice IIRC...just plain losing interest in technology...I've felt myself slipping away from where I wanted to be in the first place...which was close.

I want to FEEL bow season again...not just shoot a deer or a black bear with a bow...

I'm thinkin' a self made Howard Hill style in about 55 lbs at 29 inches...some premium cedar and a few Zewicky's outta do the trick......

If'n you weren't a lefty, I'd already have ya hooked up...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

How'd that come to be anyway...Lefty's bein' wrong? Kinda like my mindset...I'm not crazy, the whole rest of the world is.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ya know...this discusion on archery sideline parallels the black powder issue too....in that I'm satisfied goin' both directions. One day I get tickled totin' my flinter .50 (with the fancy inlays)...the next I'm game for some long range sniping with the Ramblings Rifle...

Maybe I am crazy.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

thanks to ya'll...

I should be gettin a good night sleep to get up and put a full day into workin' on Da Boat...

Not sittin' here sippin' vast quantities of Evans and coke....

Wildswalker,
I have an older (like new) Damon Howatt Ventura recurve in left hand.
66", AMO 55#28". White glass, bubunga riser..
Originally got it so's I could perfect my shooting( I'm right-handed) useing a thumb ring..

The bow shoots very fast and at 29" draw would be ablut 58-59#s..
It'd make a good hunting bow with a touch of artistry in greens and browns atop the white glass..
If you are interested and would shoot it, let me know..
For a tad more than cost of shipping I can get it to you..jim

Jim,

Just let me know a price...and where to send it.

wildswalker...I sent you a PM..
IF my one condition is acceptable to you, then once the bow gets to you you can send me a check..jim

PM replied to.

Jim, We're still here. Just nobody (as you know) is getting rich off of us! Our equipment is basic and durable and we don't show off alot. It was actually harder for me to find other folks interested in bow hunting 40 years ago. Maybe we should find a better way to share the old ways with young people?

powell, over 40 years ago, I had a hard time finding anyone who knew squat about making arrows, bows or huntinh-shooting with the bow..
I did find a few tho..:)..and read about every article in the old archery magazines at the library and every old book all the way back to Ascham that I could find..:)

I actually sent letters to old time archers and crafters who advertised in old archery magazines back in the 20's..:)
Got a few responses believe it or not..
Alot of "he's been dead now 20 years..."
One hand written response I did get was from old Earl Ullrich down in Roseburg...He was in his early 90's then...
We struck up a letter writing friendship and I actually traveled from Arizona up to see he and Kathryn one summer..

Chet Stevenson, Gilman keasey, Don Brown, Don Adams,Jay Massey, Fred Anderson, John Strunk,Louie Armbruster, John Schultz, Ted Ekin and Betty and Craig....and what was the name of that fellow up at Northwest Archery in Seattle..:)
Glenn St Charles and his sons are top shelf also..
I apologize for overlooking many of the folks who have kept archery alive....
No matter how small your town is an archer can help kids and grownups learn and enjoy the sport....One arrow at a time..:)

I learned alot and they were and some still ARE wonderful people..I'd like to meet Ron LaClaire before I die..but Michigan is a ways off for both of us..jim

You bet Jim! I know it's optomistic, but sometimes I think there are as many of us as ever. Just "in the closet" so to speak. I don't think I've ever seen a bumper sticker with TRADITIONAL ARCHER ON BOARD or MY OTHER BOW IS A RECURVE, etc! I think I've seen one about everything else.

I wonder what the old timers would shoot today if they were still around? I bet Fred Bear would be shooting the latest cabon arrows and compound bow with hybrid cams and have a lazer rangefinder around his neck. Gasp, traditional shooter everywhere just winced.........Ok, I've read Fred Bear's field notes and those old boys were not afraid to loose an arrow - shots of 70+ yards were not uncommon, they considered a shot in the ham a good one...They would go to Alaska for 3 months with 6 dz arrows and 3 to 6 bows. I guess what I'm saying is that they used state of the art at the time and I would venture a guess that they still would today. Traditional archery is a romance style of shooting, to say technology has not trickeled into traditional shooting is false. IF you like to shoot traditional, good for you. IF you like to shoot a compound good for you. The important thing is that your shooting and having fun, to each his own, we are all archers and need to stick together as a group or we will all be looking for a place to shoot some day.

Centershot, your statement:

"IF you like to shoot traditional, good for you. IF you like to shoot a compound good for you. The important thing is that your shooting and having fun, to each his own, we are all archers and need to stick together as a group or we will all be looking for a place to shoot some day. .."

That is right on...I have no issues with anyone who shoots archery no matter their choice in equipment.

Now concerning what some of the old timers might be doing, well, you should have listened to Old Glenn St Charles just a few years ago on the subject..:)
He wasn't on the technology bandwagon by any stretch of the imagination.

The original Allen patent compound has been around since the mid 60's...
Fred Bear's company made & sold alot of compound bows..but I don't recall Fred making any films of himself hunting with them or shooting them..:)..but maybe he was just getting old..
I'm an old timer, BTW, and I don't own a compound, carbon or even aluminum arrows, sights etc.

And in all the years of hunting and killing big game animals, a killing shot was as it is <or should be> these days:

sharp b-head with well-placed arrow to heart-lungs..with proper follow thru to recover the game.

While I practice out to 50-75-100 yards to hone archery form and strength, my own archery hunting shots are under 45 yards..and usually alot close than that..jim

I don't know that Fred Bear would be shooting carbon arrows off a 70% letoff compound (unless he were alive today and 100 years old!).

Some of the old-time pioneers of bowhunting are still alive.
Owen Jeffery, designer of the Kodiak and many other classic bows, still hunts all the time for deer and wild boar on foot with recurves and longbows of his own, using aluminum and wood arrows.

Just thought I'd heat up this thread a bit by sticking a compound in the mix. I get the feeling that there are quite a few traditional shooters here. Shooting a traditional bow well is a difficult task........the statement about sticking a sharp broadhead in the heart/lungs of the target animal and proper follow through says it all. Now for most, especially new shooters, that task can be accomplished sooner and more consistantly with modern equipment hence the popularity of modern equipment and what happened to archery. What is happening to archery is more shooters shooting better with modern equipment (not a bad thing) JMHO centershot.

I don't know what he would shoot today if he was alive, but when he was alive, he shot a Kodiak with wooden arrows off his knuckle. He had the arrow shelf ground down so he could shoot that way. He had plenty of compound bows at his business to choose from, and aluminum and fiberglass arrows...whatever he wanted.

Sure, he shot compounds and aluminum arrows for advertisement, but until he got so old he couldn't hunt, he shot that Kodiak by preference.

Centershot, Just to guess-timate, I'd think the number of compound bow owners probably outnumbers those who own recurves, longbows or other 'traditional' bows 10000:1.
I won't speculate how the number of quality hours spent practicing might compare..:)

That's just the way technology works for most consumers and the AMO folks wouldn't be selling them if the public didn't want them.

Shooting any bow consistently and accuracy requires training, properly matched tackle and disciplined practice.

Forgetting for a moment about sight pins, scopes,release-aids, rangefinders and other items many archers may use, everything else being equal the flatter-shooting bow-arrow setup reduces some of the distance-gaugeing variables the archer has to deal with.

Having bows which are centershot or have adjustible arrow plates also allows the archer a bit more leniency with a not perfect loose as well as a broader selection of arrow spines that will shoot well.

Obviously(aside from breaking the compound over) holding the compound is alot easier for most folks than a stickbow which is of comparable draw weight..Folks can go hunting or shooting and do pretty well even if they don't have the physical conditioning , are young, the gals, or have suffered some injury..

Whatever you choose, take the time to learn to shoot it well, particularly if you will take it hunting..

For me, the enjoyment of making most of my own equipment, the challenge to stay in good condition to shoot the heavier hunting bow well, and the link to many archers over centuries past keep me interested in archery of the simpler sort..jim

Once your eyes start to go, shooting that compound with the complicated sights gets more difficult.

Shooting by instinct is like shooting a basketball, quail rising, or a throwing a baseball. You don't have to see every detail to do it, because you don't think about it, or even do it. You are it. That's why a 75 year old longbow hunter can still stick a deer at 40 yards, or a 68 year old shotgunner will be in the finals for the Olympic team.

Jim, just re-read an article in Traditional Bowhunter August 2004...

"Putting an End To Snap Shooting" by G. Fred Asbell

Good read and lottsa info on getting back to the basics of shooting traditional bows. Good for the un-practiced expert as well as the beginner.

"Centershot, Just to guess-timate, I'd think the number of compound bow owners probably outnumbers those who own recurves, longbows or other 'traditional' bows 10000:1.
I won't speculate how the number of quality hours spent practicing might compare."

South Dakota did a bowhunter survey a few years back and they figured 8% of the bowhunters in this state used longbows or recurves. That figures out to 1 traditional for every 12.5 compounds users.

Lee24, Interesting observation concerning visual accuity.

We often shoot in the dark at a small candle in front of a dirt berm at 25-30 yards.The flame is the mark.

The archer cannot see his hands, the bow, the arrow tip..

Nothing but the small flame a distance away..

With practice, the mind KNOWS where everything is and the shots are true to the mark..even in the dark.

The compound BAREBOW shooter can do the same thing with practice, but he who relys on all the accessories rather than traing his mind and body to function well for the shooting where ONLY the mark is in focus cannot. jim

ec

Shooting at candle in the dark is something we used to do to train our muscle memory for pistol shooting. Roving is another thing that instinctive archers do. Before Owen Jeffery moved from my neighborhood, lots of us would go roam his roving range, shooting at targets as they came into view, all at different and unknown ranges.

A friend and I used to rove with handguns in an old sandpit. We took turns. Each day, one person came early and moved the targets, which were oil cans or bottles with an inch of sand for ballast. Then both would go through in order and shoot them as fast as possible. Getting closer took time, so if you could make a quick 50, 75 or 100 yard shot, your score went up.

Another exercise was to toss old tennis balls and let them bounce down the side of the pit and across the sand, which was soft, but with a crust on top after each rain. Then shoot them from about 20 feet up with a handgun or bow and arrow, wherever they happened to be.

Lee24,
A-Roving! is my favorite sort of archery practice.
( this doesn't include small game hunting, bullfrog shooting, carp shooting..:)
Nothing quite as fun or challenging as taking bow and arrows into forest or field for the day with a few archer friends and a canteen and bag lunch.
We take turns picking the mark from 15 to 75 yards, with an occasional 'Battle of Crecy' shot out to over 100 yards.
A patch of green moss on a rotting stump, pine cone, tuft of brown grass..Shots made thru small 'window openings' in interveneing brush and trees..shot down 6" wide 'corridors' in stands of young reprod fir or hemlock..across ravines, up and down hill...Shots in deep shadow or full sun or in and thru shade and shadow..
All at unmeasured distances so the mind, eye and archer build a memory bank of shooting experience that'll help him when hunting..
Shots kneeling, from concealment, standing...It's all fun...jim

I got to talk with Fred Bear the year before he passed, at the shot show, Just me and Fred, about 45 to 50 mins.Im from Michigan and thats mostly what he wanted to here about, but I asked him why he didnt shoot a compound bow, he told me he liked the old recurves, compounds were to heavy, nosily, to many parts, more could go wrong in th bush. but thry sell good,he stated with a laugh, we had to end our talk at that point a guy was there to take pics. of Fred, He sanped pics. of myself and Fred, I signed a release form told him all I wanted was a copy of the photos he took my address ect. but I never got any. before I left Fred signed my bear archery hat, that I still have today. John

There are not many things more satisfying than taking your children a-roving and having a little light competition, especially during small game season, when a squirrel or rabbit might be about.

Who says A-roving is limited to traditional shooters? This whole thread seems to be looking down your nose at a compound shooter. When one of you fellas win the money division at a 3d shoot with your traditional equipment, let me know. Most of the traditional guys I know shoot better when no body's keeping score.

What does winning money have to do with being good at something? TV has too many people wanting to be a "professional" bass fisherman, or deer hunter, or skateboard rider.

This topic is about using a 10,000-year-old technology to handicap yourself and use some other hunting skills besides being able to use a pin sight and string release. A hunter who can get his deer at 20 yards with a longbow can certainly get them with a compound bow, or a shotgun, or a .300 Weatherby.

Centershot,
"Who says A-roving is limited to traditional shooters"

I never did..:)
Half the archers I shoot with or compete against are shooting compound( barebow).
And I don't look down my nose at any archer who enjoys the sport or hunting..As I wrote before, the technology is quite beneficial to archers in general.
I didn't spend much bandwidth on the disadvantages for use of the compound bow...

Some of the thread was talking about why traditional archers enjoy what we do, and how we do what we do..

I've won plenty of barebow 3-D and PAA indoor archery shoots over the years.
Can still hold my own with about any archer no matter what he's shooting..all the way out to the York or America round distances..
But mostly, roving and hunting are what I enjoy..
Whatever any other archer is into and enjoys is fine with me..Just trying to share some my anachronistic passion for the old time archery..:) jim

"I'd like to be more involved with this small forum..."

Jim,
Why did you ever leave the stickbow and tradgang forums?
Lots of like-minded traditional bowhunters there. I always enjoyed your posts on those forums.

Aldeer

Aldeer, I sent you a PM..jim

I still have 2 compounds, Mathews at that, I used to belong to 2 archery clubs at the same time, shoot 3 nights a week diffrent clubs ect. got fed up 10 years ago when all the cheating started at the 3d shoots guys using binos, range finders, paceing the dis.off ect. all for a cheap trophy, my buddies and I gave all are trophys to a club just to be awarded to the little kids, whenthey shot. see these guys shooting,could not put six arrows in a paper plate at 20 marked yrds. then take a first place when the best shooter I knew was 20 or so points behind them. We have to stick togeather, no matted what we are shooting, is the main thing.

Sorry- I missinterpreted this thread and read into it some things that have happened locally, the discussion of 'traditional is better' often shows up at our local club and is even preached by a former fish and game official.... I have no problem what so ever with a traditional shooter enjoying archery is his or her own way. A lot of what I've been seeing is traditional archers on a bit of a soap box. When discussing the merrits of the 'bells and whistles' very few of the archers I've talked with actually had a product failure in the field, and if prodded deeply enough the root problem more often than not is target panic. These guys tend to hide behind the acceptabity of being a poor shot with traditional gear instead of solving the real problem between thier own ears. To each his own.

The answer to, "What happened to archery?" is, "The same thing that happened to black powder."

A few stalwart souls revitalized interest and created a market large enough to support small businesses.

The hunters asked for a special season where they could hunt in their style of stalking before the woods were invaded, as they are in states with short seasons.

A bunch of people wanted in on that early season, but weren't fans of tradition, and didn't want to learn how to shoot a longbow or a flintlock, so there was a big demand for compound bows and inline muzzleloaders with telescopic sights, and manufacturers answered the demand.

What started as preserving tradition and simplicity was subverted into high tech loopholes by others.

Well, Lee..I wasn't gonna say that...:)

It is after all, about business and money and marketing..Prifts, supply-demand.
Stickbow archery hunters got the first archery hunting seasons aproved in most states..
Lord knows now there are crossbow hunters who want to hunt during those established archery seasons..

But for those who do enjoy archery of whatever sort, we still can have some common ground to chat about around the fire..:) ..and maybe we can stay focuesd on that common ground... jim

I am glad for any technology or target competion which brings more people into archery and black powder and hunting.

When I broke my sternum and dislocated my elbow in a car wreck, I had to shoot a youth compound for months, then a 30-lb recurve. I may again when I get old and feeble.

I am not putting down those who choose to hunt with a compound or inline muzzleloader, but let's be honest; the only reason some of them got into it was to get the jump on the season. Some of them change their attitude after a few years, and realize what they are missing, and take up recurves and cap and ball.

Others just keep looking for ways to cheat by stretching the limits of compounds and black powder, er, Pyrodex, er uh, propellent pellets, uh...

There is not much money for big business in people who make they own longbows and arrows, compared to a $600 compound, or make their own percussion rifle from scratch.

Who cares if you are "snap shooting" as long as it works!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
From what I can remember, the Reverand Stacey Groscup ( among others) was a snap shooter, and a very good one!

Nomads are cool!
Cat

Bear produced some of thee most innovative and hi-tech stuff on the market, and patented it all, refusing to charge royalties at the same time.
HOWEVER, becuase of his style of shooting he could never get comfortable with compounds,and remained a recurve shooter.
When he did shoot compounds during testing, he shot them unsighted.
Glenn St. Charles's last animal I believe was a caribou, shot unsighted with a compound bow that had a very small amount of llet off so he could pull it, but still have sufficient cast to hun t with it, unsighted of course.

Back in the 50's and early 60's , many modern archers tried for any hit, but the attitude of long shootinmg did not go away, from what I hear of many of the archers I talk to!

The "pie plate" accuracy theory goes out the window once in the field, for many, it seems.
Cat

Many of the Hoyt, Bear, and Shakepeare bows were designed by Owen Jeffery.

I wish this picture of him was larger, 80 years old, with his 49-lb recurve and a 400-lb hog shot on one of Wade Hampton's old plantations in the Congaree Swamp.

http://www.jefferyarchery.com/shop/enter.html

"Who cares if you are "snap shooting" as long as it works!! "

I agree!
Before one get's proficient at what some see as 'snap shooting', there SHOULD be time spent with attention to form, full draw, consistent 'anchor' shot alignment.
When that is learned and ingrained on the mind and body, IF the need arises on game, flying birds, running rabbits etc, the archer will be properly prepared and all of the several elements of the shot will flow together fast and well.

IF on the other hand, the archer cannot master the several components that make the shot accurate and drifts into fast shooting the results will be less favorable.

Target panic, failure to come to consistent draw, failure to align arrow and mark, failure to maintain strong back tension, failure to execute a crisp loose on the string...

Dedicated practice at 50 yards and out will engrave the requisites of good archery on the mind and body, and also show deficiencies, if any, in the matchup of bow and arrow.
The archer and his equipment must be able to 'shoot the line' to the mark...The rest is what makes archery challenging.jim

"Snap shootong" has a couple of definitions, one of them bad. What Stacey Groscup did was true instinctive shooting, and one call call it snap shooting, I suppose.

But another kind of snap shooting is what some call target panic, which is the inability to get the bow back to full draw. I've seen this many times...an archer simply cannot get the string back past about 22-23 inches before he lets go. It's a mental thing, and probably everyone has had it who shoots a lot.