RL 22 Temperature sensitivity test

I have always heard how temperature sensitive RL 22 is and I have had some bad experiences with RL 25 that I assumed was due to temperature sensitivity. So for a long time now I have sworn off RL powders with the exception of RL 15 that I use in my 375 h&h and 416 rem. But alas there was a problem in hodgdonville I could not get the velocity out of my 375 ultra that I wanted with any other powder. So I broke down and loaded up some rounds with some RL 22 I had laying around. And as expected I got 2900 ish fps with a 300gr TSX and excellent accuracy with no pressure signs. But this gun is destined for the bush veldt and big bad Cape Buffalo or may be a Brown bear or big bull Elk. So with that in mind and looking at a possible 50 degree temperature change during a day hunting I wanted to know just how bad the velocity swing would be form hot to cold. A call to my favorite tech support from my favorite bullet maker got a guess of 120 fps loss for a 50 deg temp change so if at 85 deg its going 2900 and at 35 deg its going around 2780 ( yes the animal may not know the difference but I will and more importantly the gun might with a poi change). I just had to know so I did a little experiment. I loaded up 3 sets of 3 rounds with IMR 7828ssc, VV N 165 and RL 22, and for good measure I threw in a few more calibers and powders, these included a 338 rum with H1000, 300 rum with Retumbo a 270 wsm with Magpro and a 6.5X55 with H4350. To do the test I put 3 rounds from each gun / powder combo in a zip lock bag and then put them in the freezer in a small ice chest full of ice. I let them set in the freezer for a day or so and then went to the range. I got to the range and it was a 48 deg that day so I had a set of ammo left out to reach ambient temp and then put a set of ammo on my defrost in my truck and keep it running on high. I had a Fluk temperature gauge the infrared kind to masseur the temperature of each set of ammo and the gun barrel. My plan was to shoot the cold ammo then the ambient ammo and finally the hot ammo one after the other so by the time I got to the hot ammo the gun should be smoking hot. I wanted to get the gun as cold as I could so I rubbed ice on the outside of the barrel ( in this kind of weather this sucked) once that was done I measured the temp of the barrel at 33 deg and the cold ammo at 5 deg, the ambient ammo was 49 deg and the hot ammo was 125 deg. I then shot each gun and powder combo in order, cold ( with cooling down the barrel with ice), ambient and then hot with the barrel now smoking hot.

The results, all velocity was recorded with a 35P and is a average of 3 shots for each temperature.
(As per usually with me I have missed placed my print out so this is some what from memory!!)

Also all the ammo had Barnes TSX except the 6.5 witch was Nosler partitions

RL 22 had 20 fps form cold to hot 2890 to 2910.
Imr 7828ssc had about 40 fps from cold to hot at 2800 to 2840
VV N 165 had about the same form 2780 to 2835

All the other powders and guns had about 40 to 50 fps spread with 6.5x55 and H 4350 being the worst at 60 fps this was a surprise for me as this is an extreme powder.
One other strange thing was Retumbo and the 300 rum Lost velocity with the hot ammo form 3350 ( this is what this load always runs ) to 3290 for the hot ammo???.

I wish I had my print out for this day but I have looked every were for it and can not find it.

I then wanted to just test the RL 22 and the 375 rum so I did the test again with 2 sets of 6 rounds each.
This time it would be the most extreme swing of 5 deg to 125 deg.
The results were about the same with a 12 fps change!!!!!!!!

The hot rounds The cold rounds
2918 + 2894 +
2874 � 2854 -
0044 E 0040 E
2891 M 2879 M
0016 S 0013 S

I realize that I did not really prove any thing statistically but this does make me feel better about using RL 22 in my 375 rum. Next is to do the same thing with my 257 Roy and 264 win to see how much bore diameter may play in this. I do think that each gun also may vary with each powder so the problem may be more complex than just temperature.

I cant wait for the weather to warm up so I can get out in the garage and play some more.



So For the 375 rum RL 22 looks like the powder! Now I just hope that the new lot I buy to load all the ammo I want will be the same!??!?!?

Spence, I'm glad you finally got around to posting your test. Now if we can just find a 55gal drum of RL-22 to split between us......... ...................DJ

First of all....thanks for the results. Appreciate you taking the time to post 'em.

RL22 is my go to powder for several rifles/calibers....several others as well. I've heard alot of other members results which were not so encouraging....some have downright sworn off RL22 and Alliant powders altogether (baby with the bath water thing...). My results mirror yours as do several other members. Perhaps the negative comments came from "strange batches or lots", or other factors we can't know.

Glad to hear that it works for you....have often said it's the most bang for your buck in the velocity department, while giving excellent accuracy as well.

Buy it in bulk in the same lot#. I do as I say....my last purchase was five 5 pounders of RL22 in the same lot#.

375RUM's have a big appetite.....grin.

Magnumb,
Man great minds think alike Iv been looking for 5 five pounders!

I wounder why they dont sell it 8 or 10 lbs kegs??

I just really hope that the large lot I buy will have the same results

have you every tried it in small bores?

Thank's

Thanks for taking the time to run the tests and post the results. There are a lot of "truths" that circulate on the internet that don't seem to hold up to well to testing. I look forward to seeing if you find many differences in other calibers.

Thanks for the data. I trust your test over that of the ones who make claims or get paid to write about it.

The way I hunt I can check my zero in a similar temp to what the rifle hunts at not that it can't vary anyway. I bought two five pound jugs of RL 22 a couple of months ago.

That's some good info. Alliant RL19 has become a favorite of mine, as have their pistol powders. And yes, I've tried many of the Hodgdon and IMR powders. I haven't had a chance to do any temperature sensitivity tests so your data is encouraging. Thanks.

prdator,
Thanks for doing the test and posting the results. I really appreciate you sharing this info with us.

I used to use RL powders almost exclusively. Then I began to hear about the temp sensitivity issues. I swithced to Hodgdon, but have recently started using RL 19 and 22 again. Like you, I really like how they perform. I have always gotten good results with them.

I'm kind of wondering if Alliant didn't change there formulations to make there powders less temp sensitive. I recall seing some data that showed their powders had the widest swing at changing temperatures. Or, like someone else said, maybe it has something to do with the many other variables that come in to play concerning ballistics.

I also appreciate the 6.5x55 test with H4350. I recently changed from RL 19 to H4350 in my Swede. I may have to rethink this change. RL 19 with 120 to 129 gr. bullets has always been freaky accurate in my 6.5x55.

Thanks again,
Steve

Oh one thing I forgto to say was i saw No poi cahnge with the RL 22 or for that mater any of the others.

The search feature doesn't seem to be full up just yet and I don't have time to re-create the post. However, Stan Watson did a the most scientific test I have seen on this topic several years ago and published it in his reloading book. Stan used a 30-06 with a 165 grain bullet and an Oehler 43 PBL to gather his data. He tested at propellant temps of zero degrees, 70 degrees, and 110 degrees.

With standard primers, IMR 4350 had a 63 fps increase between zero and 100 degrees, VV N-560 had a 51 fps increase, WW 760 had a 57 fps increase, and H4350 had a max variation of 5 fps, and the 70 degree load was 5 fps faster than the 110 degree load.

I think if a guy has worked up his load properly--which means using the most consistent load vs the one-time best and not using a hot load, the sweet spot ought to be big enough where a 63 fps difference in velocity wouldn't meaningfully change the POI or group size out to 500-600 yds. Of course, the only way to know for sure is to actually check the load under various temperatures.

I think the relative "hottness" of the load, the speed of the powder, the condition of the barrel, and the chambering itself will have a large play in how much velocity increase or decrease one would see as the temperature changes. I would speculate that a 375 H&H loaded with a 270 grain bullet at 2650 fps would be much less sensitive to temperature extremes than a 300 RUM shooting a 220 grain bullet at 3200 fps. I also think that as the the load gets hotter and hotter, small changes in propellant temperature will have larger and larger effects on pressure and velocity.

I do not know of anyone who has done a complete enough test to fully check this effect, but it would be fun to have enough time and resources to do such a test.

In most cases, I think lot-to-lot consistency of a powder probably is a bigger concern than than the actual level of sensisitivy to temperature. In my experience, Hodgdon Extreme powders seem to have very good lot-to-lot consistency.

I don't have my info with me but my memory is close enough...

In 2003 I worked up new loads for a pair of my 270W's with 150gr Partitions. Velocity was about 60-70fps faster with RL22 compared to my tried and true loads with H4831. Accuracy was as good as before. Then I read more and more about the temp sensitivity of RL powders.

I had fired a goodly number of my final loads through my chrono that previous summer and always note the temp when I chrono.

So the following winter, I put of batches of the same ammo and both rifles in the back of the truck to "cold soak" overnight when the temps were down to about 5 degrees.

Early next morning I went to the range. I parked the truck tight along the shooting bench (we can do that in the middle of the winter at my range) so I could keep the Oheler timer in the cab and warm. At shooting time the temps ran 9-14 degrees.

I also borrowed a Fluke temp "gun" from a friend (I gotta get me one of those). I kept the ammo in the shade and I would fire two rounds and let the rifle sit outside in the shade to cool while I shot the next rifle, letting the rifles thouroughly cool each time.

Short story: From summertime data derived at 89-99 degrees, one rifle GAINED about 12fps, the other rifle lost about a 100fps in the cold weather--go figure. More importantly, my ES in one rifle opened to 86fps, the other 104fps. This is from summertime ES of <25fps for both rifles/loads.


All of this data was derived from 10 shot strings--something I think is important when getting serious about ES, average velocity, measuring pressure with Ballistics Lab or Pressure Trace.

This is consistent with info from some whose knowledge I have faith in. The temperature sensitivity is as much about inconsistenty from shot to shot as it is about velocity loss.

Accuracy was not nearly as good, but at least some portion of that can be attributed to chattering teeth

I went back to H4831. At a tad under 2900fps with a 150gr, the 2950+ I gained with my 270W's wasn't enough be concerned about. I would not be surprised though to see a lot of variation with different cartridges, loads, and even different firearms.

I have read, and have one friend, who is claiming phenomenal velocity with RL22 in their 30-06's. I would really like to see what is happening in really cold temps.

Obviously, Only a small segment of big game hunters hunt in temps near or below zero.

I have been thinking about trying RL in my 30-06AI's. But I WILL test the load in cold weather (I mean really cold) before I would officially designate it a hunting load.....

Casey

prdator, In reading this post your comments on the 300Rum and Retumbo caught my eye. I had a similar experience last year where in the spring 40's I was getting 3350 fps and in the summer high 70's to low 80's I was getting 3320 fps with same powder lot. Thanks for posting

I love RL22. Second comes Imr7828 & I wish I could find some 7828SC.

RL22 is like an old faithful dog. Wish I could buy an 8 pounder.

Prdator,

Please enlighten me about your less than favorable experiences with Rel 25. I just developed an awesome 180 gr load for my 30-05 Ackely with it.

I've had nothing but good luck with reloder 22 and reloder 15, but had very inconsistent results with 19.

prdator - Yeah.....I wish they sold 25 pound kegs.

In answer to your concern about the next lot of RL22 that you buy.....find a gunshop that has as many 5 pounders as you'd like to buy with the same lot#. Purchase one of them and have them hold the other's. If it gets you what you want (consistency and accuracy...whether the same POI as your last grouping with RL22 or not), return to pick up the remaining kegs. I do that all the time....my gunshop is rather large and they order in large quantities...they also love seeing me darken their door....grin. Appreciate them doing that for me, but they also are all shooters and understand the drill.

I use RL22 in my Sako 25-06 and it gets me nearly 3,300 fps with the 110 gr. AB. Very accurate. Both my 300 and 270 WSM's are also quite fond of RL22.....great combinations....made for each other.

It's amazing how fast five 5 pounders vanish loading several rifles/calibers with any powder. I'm at just less than half my original RL22 purchase and that was only 2 years ago.......lots of trigger time.

Good luck to you on your quest for the "bulk buy". It'll happen....

Let us know your results with the new lot# of RL22..

Yea at 7000 grains a pound and all most 100 gr a round thats 70 rounds a pound or 350 rounds a keg ( 5 lbs). it dosent take long.

Thats a great idea on having the store hold some powder I guess if a guy could get it worked out you could buy a 1 lb can and test it quick and then go back and buy the rest if it worked out.

I do think RL 22 is some what magic as how could the same powder work in the 25-06 and the 257 wby ??? with top velocity in both.

I'll keep yall up to date with what I find out on the other guns and lots.

I own and load for .243W, .270WSM, .280Rem, 7mmRM, 30-06, and 300Winnie. If I was forced to choose one powder, R-22 would work in every one of them. In fact, I have a R-22 servicable load for each of those guns even if its not my go to load. However, if you ever start Using VV-N160, N165, or N560, you'll have another old standby powder that is more consistent. That being said, I have a theory on R-22 and some loaders inconsistent results. IME, R-22 does its best work behind heavier for caliber bullets. IE. 160s in .284 calibers, 180s and 200s in the 30s, etc. IOW, it needs pressure to burn more consistently, and lighter bullets don't work as well. Not at all saying there are not good light bullet loads...but just my general experience. YMMV. On the whole, I agree with those that are R-22 fans...its a great powder.

I'm a bit of a "heavy for" guy and most Reloder offering do as you suggest with "plumper' pills......always top velocities.

Happy the 25-06 eats it up....makes life a bit easier.

prdator

EXCELLENT POST & THANK YOU! RL-22 is my go to powder for 270, 280, 30/06, 7mm Mag, & 338WM.

Always had the same question about its temp sensitivity based upon all the negative stuff I saw written about it...but never really had any first hand experience with significant velocity swings and POI shifts at varying temps.

WN

GSSP,
It happend with a Lazz Warbird .308 that I had I would load up some rounds and go to the range and all would look good and then load up some of the same weight and bullet and the dang things would blow the primer right out of new brass. I swithed to H1000 and my problems went away. BUT to be fair I did NOT have a crono at that time and that is one big KEY in reloading.

I thought it was temp change that caused my problem( but could have been do to a cahnge in lot#'s) but now after learing more about reloading and getting a good crono. I now think it was a max( over max) load any how as, I have had this happen to me with my 300 ultra and Retumbo. I was getting 3550 fps with a 180 gr tsx in my 300 rum) with NO pressuer signs and I thought WOW this custom barrel thing is cool but the next time I shot the same load I had primers falling out!!!!!!!

SO as many have learned and as they keep telling me get a good crono and work up loads with it!!! and if you get 200 fps more that a gun should shoot with no visable pressuer signs YOU are OVER perssuer..............................

Allthough I have not used RL 25 since then and right now have no need to.

More test to come.
Thanks!!

I lean this way as well.

GB

Last fall I was working up loads with 160 Accubonds on my 7mag using both RL-22 and H4831SC for an elk trip. They were both giving me about the same group size and the RL-22 was about 150ft/sec faster so I was leaning toward the RL-22 but I was concerned about the temperature issues so I ran a little test. This was late summer so the temps were around 90. I put 3 rounds of each load in the freezer and 3 rounds of each load at ambient and chrono'd each group. Based on the average velocities the RL-22 lost about 100ft/sec due to temp and the H4831SC didn't loose any. This is a very limited test so take it as you will and 100ft/sec would probably have little effect on the POI but I decided to go with the H4831SC due to it's consistancy.

RL-22 is my favorite powder. I don't believe it has any more temp sensitivity than any other powder including the Hodgdon extreme series or IMR powders. I use RL-22 in 270, 280, 7mag, 7 STW, 300 win, 300 Wthby, 300 Jarrett, 338 Win, 338 RUM. It is a very versatile powder that seems to give top velocity and accuracy in most any calibur I have used it in. I do most of my load testing and development in Jan & Feb. usually early in the morning here in Va. The temps are usually in the 15-25 degree range with a few single digit temp days thrown in. I chro each round. When I find a promising load I load up 30-50 rounds and shoot them up in 3 shot groups thru the spring & summer. I specifically save many for the hottest days. Many are fired in 100 degree high humidity! Using this method I have yet to notice ANY significant changes in velocity, accuracy, or pressures during my testing with RL-22. Although my method is not perfect it seems to give me a very good reading on powder performance over a wide spread of temps. I've been doing this for quite a # of years and I'm sold on RL-22 as being one of the best powders available for big game cartridges in temps I am likely to hunt in. RL-22 has proven to me to consistently out perform every other powder I try using this method in accuracy, velocity, and consistency. YMMV, thanks 163bc

Full Draw just told us how he found a 100 fps difference with RL-22 in his 7 Mag and zero difference with H4831SC. Why would you not believe that? His results reflect what many of us have found.

After reading soo much about RL22 and sensitivity, I performed a test about a year ago for a couple pounds I have of the same lot #.

Shot my 300WM @ 600 yds, 3 round group was just under 1/2moa. Put same rounds in a freezer overnight (around 10 degrees I believe). Next day took rounds out of the freezer and fired 1 cold bore shot @ 600 yards. This round went into the same 1/2 min group. Rifle itself was not put in the freezer, so the chamber was the same as the ambient temperature (from memory I think it was around 70 degrees). I dont know if putting the rifle in the freezer would have made a difference or not? Very limited unscientific testing, but it aleviated some of my fears. I agree with many here, RL 22 is an excellent powder for accuracy and speed. I did however buy 5 lbs. of MRP as its supposed to be the "best" lots of RL22. Havent played with it yet.

prdator,

Thanks for posting that. I have moved away from RL22 in the past few years, because I had seen some pretty wide swings in velocity at different temps. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it was in the neighborhood of 100+ fps.

Perhaps Alliant has changed RL22 slightly in the past few years to make it more temp stable?

Whatever the case, I may have to start using more if it now, just to see for myself again.

Thanks.

I did a little experiment with Retumbo the other day up here in Wisconisn. I have a fussy 300 wby ultralight and found a load that works great (fairly compressed) with retumbo and 180tsx's.
Anyhow shooting in 20-30 degree weather the load was doing 3200-3240. I was worried it might get a little hotter in say 70 degree weather.
I put some ammo in a 6 pack cooler with a zip lock bag of warm water in the cooler. I took a thermometer along and by the time I stopped for lunch and got set up the temp in the cooler was 60 degrees.
It was 10 degrees outside. I got my chrono and gun all set to go. I put the ammo in my pocket and the thermometer in there too. The thermometer said it was 60 degrees in my pocket. I sat by the gun and fired off groups of 3 shots. I'm not sure how fast the chamber of the gun could cool down a shell that was in there for about 15 seconds but by the 3rd shot of the string the chamber should have been at least room temp I would think.
Anyhow....the bottom line in my experiment was that all ammo was still doing right around 3200 fps. From what I saw it would appear to me that Retumbo was pretty temp tolerant from 20 degrees to about 60 degrees. Even if it lost a bit of zip in colder temps or gained just a tad when warmer I think I've proved to myself that in the temps that I would hunt in this powder will be consistant.

My take is a tad different...I believe in the temp sensitivity of R-22, but my experience tells me that the "extreme" powders suffer from it to some extent as well. Its just a contengency to deal with in loading.

I believe what my tests and data suggest over the last 20+ YEARS! I shoot many hundreds if not thousands of rounds out of hunting rifles every year testing various loads, powders, and bullets. In doing so I have shot thousands of rounds over a chronograph with RL-22 in temps from 0-100 over that time period. I've got all the data to back up what I need to know for me. I'm simply passing on my observations. I've seen 100 fps spreads with about every powder made if you shoot em enough. However you get a much better read on temps, acuracy and consistency if you have hundreds of tests to compare instead of a few. I stand firmly by my acessment of RL-22 based on my many years of shooting it in extreme temp spreads. I find it no more temp sensitive than any other powder out there and less sensitive than many. 163bc.

The current issue of "Varmint Hunter" magazine has a great article on the effects of temperature changes. It concluded that the temp of the chamber played a much larger role in vleocity differences than just the temp of the cartridge. It's a great read.

Got mine today.....always a bunch of great articles with useful information.

Not the cheapest magazine around, but sure fits a certain readership niche.

Yep ! First bolt I ever had to hammer open was a 257 AI load with Win 760 .It was a 100 degree day and I inadvertantly let the fifth or sixth shot in the string cook in the chamber .

I burn a lot of RL powders . I've done my own temp tests to MY satisfaction .Only difference I've seen with any powders is that Varget handles the heat better in my 22 250 AI than anything else I've tried . Important in a PD rifle .

163bc,

I agree, my test was not an all inclusive, scientific test that removed all of the variables. It was simply a quick check to give me peace of mind before I chose a powder for my hunt. My goal was to just pass on my limited experience based on what I have seen. I appreciate hearing from someone that has had positive results with RL-22. I may try it again in the future and put it thru a little more substantial tests. RL-22 actually gave me slightly better groups and a higher velocity so if I could convince myself that it was not affected by the temp I would probably switch back to it.

Also, and I realize that these tests could be considered biased because of the source, but he Hodgdon website shows that RL-22 had a velocity loss of 75ft/sec over the same temp swing that H4831SC only lost 10ft/sec.

I have heard that as well from a poster here. However, Stan Watson's tests seem to indicate otherwise.

Regardless, when you are shooting groups on a hot day and the barrel is getting warmer and warmer--along with the ammo--but you are not seeing an increase in velocity, then I think it's safe to say that particular load in that particular gun is not so sensitive to temperature increases.

It's not the temp sensitivity that has caused me to question my relationship with RL-22, but lot-to-lot variation. Otherwise, I love it. It does make my .270 Win. sing with 140-gr. InterLocks.

rsy

[quote=Full_Draw]163bc,
I agree, my test was not an all inclusive, scientific test that removed all of the variables. It was simply a quick check to give me peace of mind before I chose a powder for my hunt. /quote]

Full Draw, Your tests are fine and they are exactly what you should do. Especially for a hunting load. You are stating what your tests reveal to you. I am doing the same in stating what my tests are telling me. I use lots of RL-22 I also do a lot of big game trophy hunting. I had heard and read of problems with RL-22 many years ago and set out to make my own determinations instead of just accepting what I had read as fact. I continue to do tests including this coming week with 3 custom rifles and severasl different bullets & powders including as usual RL-22. I have also spent quite a bit of time on the phone speaking to Alliant/Hercules technicians and asking lots of questions. I learned quite a bit from them during my conversations. I can tell you that their tests are far more thouough than yours or mine!! A Hercules quality control tech in Radford, Va. told me a supplier in Europe makes RL-22 under very strict and controlled manufacturing tolerances. BEFORE accepting a shipment it is tested in numerous ways to make sure it is exactly per the tolerances & specs. If not it is not accepted. The long and short of it FOR ME is that I cannot see any significant difference in RL-22 vs. any other power I tried over wide temp ranges and over lots of load combos over lots of years. In addition just to be clear I have tried damn near every powder you can think of including Hodgson. I use and am happy with quite a few other than RL-22. Again BASED ON MY EXPIERENCE I am quite confident and happy with RL-22 anywhere, any time, and any temp!! Good hunting, 163bc

I have seen up to 6% variation from lot to lot in powders I was told were kept to 2% variation.(At that time, the industry standard was supposed to be 4%)(+2-2%)

These days I simply don't care about velocity variation as much as point of impact variation, which is the single most important factor when I am hunting with loads made prior to the season.

100fps is nothing in the field and when you are talking about magnums shooting with velocities over 3000fps, it really doesn't matter. The deer simply won't care.

AGW

Over the last year or so I've been working on a 338 RUM. I tried several different bullets and loads but eventually settled on 225 Swift A Frames over RL-22. I got very nice accuracy and velocity. My notes show that in March of 06 (temps in 50-60s)I got 3140 avg velocity for 9 rounds fired. In August of 06 (90s high humidity) I got 3130 avg for 9 shots fired in 3 shot groups with no pressure and excellent accuracy again. Just last week in 10 degree weather my friend hicountry fired some of this same load out of my gun over his chrony at 3134 fps and again no pressures and excellent velocity. I have done this enough times with this rifle and load as well as loads with RL-22 in other rifles from 300 Win, 300 Wthby, 300 Jarrett, 270 Win, .280 AI and a few others to be totally confident in RL-22. Thanks, 163bc

Some of the "tests" listed here are not variable enough in the temp swings to really matter anyway. "Temp sensitivity" is not going to swing things worth a hoot if the variation is only 50 degrees or less. When you start talking 100 degree swings, then you're getting something more significant. Also, the valid tests for "hunting" must include the gun either hot or cold, since most of us carry our rifles out in the weather as we hunt. Some before have noticed that it is chamber metal temp, not simply powder temp that matters most.

Overall, I agree with Aussie, that what really counts is POI, whether velocity or ES varies or not. Even the worst of the worst powders are only going to vary maybe 100fps, and that only if we worked up our load at 100 degrees in the summer, then hunt at below zero, which is quite doubtful.

My strategy is to work up loads at temps somewhat close to what I might be expected to hunt with that cartridge. Big game and coyote loads, for the Dakotas, have to work in the cold (it was -24 this morning). Prairie dog loads have to work in the heat (it was 112 one day last year). I usually don't hunt quite to those extremes, so most often pick a nice medium-temperature day for working up loads, then force myself to test them in either the hot or cold environment later in the year. If the POI is good, and no noticeable pressure signs, that load is good to go no matter what the temp sensitivity is.

The only time I ever had any noticeable variation, was on a very hot summer day when I stupidly left the box of ammo and the rifle sitting in the truck window, grabbed a couple rounds, and started firing. No stuck bolt, but I knew something was wrong. When the gun was shooting an extra foot high, I went home to think it through.

Guys,
That is some good work and words on RL-22. It seams that not every one has had the same results but no one yet has posted the horror stories that I have heard of.
I agree with AGW That POI change is the main concern that I had and so far it all looks good. A 70 to 100 fps change will not matter that much in the field.

I do know that Mule Deer had IIRC stoped using RL powders because of POI change. I truly wonder why some people/rifles have expierinced this and others have not.

I just need to buy a large quanity of RL-22 and try it in all ( most) of my rifle's.

DO any of you have any test with RL-22 and the 257 wby or 264 win???

Thanks
P

There will be variation between cartridges with ANY powder because of pressure of the load, bullet weight, jacket hardness, volume of powder, maybe even primer. Some cartridges/loads may exhibit more/less variability with RL22 than others.

As far as testing is concerned, chamber temperature is important as noted. Shooting with a chamber that is cool enough--and not letting the round "cook" too long before firing, must be considered. Temperature differential between the "control" test and the cold weather test, as noted, is something to keep in mind.

Shot to shot varibility (ES) is a concern for me. When there is a large ES in a load--regardless of temps or powder used--it's telling me that consistency is not there. If I'm shooting hot loads, I don't want to go UP in pressure anymore either. Although POI ain't going to change at 100yds, at 400yds it makes me begin to wonder.

I suspect, as RL22 becomes more popular, Alliant may continue to improve its sensitivity and consistency.

For now, I'll stick with the consistency of the 4831's for my 243's, 270's, 06AI's.

Casey

Like I posted earlier, the reason some people experience POI and/or velcoity changes and others don't is likely do to a number of variables such as:

- How hot the load is
- The chambering in question
- The barrel
- Shooting technique
- The powder in question

It should really be no suprise that different people get different results. We don't expect each barrel to like the same exact load, so why should we expect that Brand X powder will act the same for everyone?

Exactly

Casey

AND:
Temperature
Humidity
Bullet weight
bullet jacket
bullet bearing surface
rifle twist
primers
cases
seating depth
temp of barrel
temp of chamber
temp of loaded round before firing
and on and on and on........ with any # of many many different variables that can and do effect pressures and thus effect velocities, accuracy & POI.
Seems to me to get good reliable test results consistency in the reloading process is the key. 163bc

I started with RL 22 when I got my Mark V in 257 a few years ago . I don't know if I can still find my notes . When I finally tried the IMR 7828 load for the 120 NP in Nosler's # 4 manual , I got the velocity they showed as max with one grain less powder and E. S. very low .It puts the first shot from a cold fouled barrel in the top half or a 2 inch bull at at 200 yards from my hunting jeep rest and puts two more within a couple inch group . Killed a fair number of deer out to 326 yards from field rests .From Montana to the Rio Grande in November .

I quit lookin' !

2900 fps from a 375 RUM with a 300 gr?

Sounds like my 378 WBY,

how can you realize this velocity safely?

I know quickload is just a reference and not 100% but it says the above is impossible----at least safely.

It is in the seiera book and I am below there max load. I have no visible pressuer signs (I know ). I would thing your 378 would go much faster than my rum???

You have to admit that a 300 gr tsx at 2900 is some kind of cool.

Pop,

Nosler #5 publishes loads reaching 2860fps. Thats not actually 2900, but its 2900 for all practical purposes.

280 rem,
What is the load that Nosler publishes????
thanks

Even POI change isn't that much of an issue,do like the Swedes do,RL-22 is a Swedish powder, check the POI just before the hunting season.You should do that anyway.But the real problem I have with temperature sensistivety is shooting groups,the chamber heat affecting velocity.Of course this changes with case capacity/bore relationship.

375RUM: 300gr Partition or CT Failsafe; 100grs of IMR7828 at 2859fps.

Compared to...

378Wby: Same bullets; 111grs of IMR7828 at 2893fps.


Doesn't seem to be a speck of difference in ballistics practically speaking.

As I said befor my load is 2900 (ISH) 2880 to 2910.
Imr 7828ssc with 100 gr was 2840.

I don't know exactly how to weigh in on this as the temp/velocity variation stuff I bumped into mostly occured with the 7 Rem Mag and 7828, or IMR 4831. I would notice that velocities were substantially higher in the summer than the winter (10-20 F). But I also noticed that IMR4831 showed LESS variation in the 270 than it did in the 7 Mag and at the time sort of concluded that it was related to load density, ie there was less space left over in the 270 case than the 7 Mag. VERY UNSCIENTIFIC but it was my half-arsed guess.

Shot a whitetail buck in Alberta this fall; AIR TEMP was about 25 below zero. Load was 60-RL22-130 Nosler partition in a Kreiger barreled M70 270 Win.The deer died. Also had along a M70 in 264; load was 62-H4831-125 Nosler Partition which did 3300 back home.Nether rifle needed to be rezeroed and test shooting was done in bitter cold.

I worry about temp sensitivty too but I burn a lot of RL22 and H4831 and only note that once I get to a load with either powder, I shoot it year round to watch that point-of-impact thing. I don't know what else a guy can do except establish a general trend in the load behavior, shoot it a lot and get skeptical when a real "spike" occurs in the load's general pattern.I will also note that match shooters in my club push the hell out of their AR's in 223 to get heavy bullets stable at 600 yards; there are lots of blown primers during the summer months when temps are high; but some of them are burning Hodgdon Extreme powders, and don't have any problems...

Hello prdator. 10-4 on your review and test results. I live in extreme northwest North Dakota and I know from experience, like you, RL-22 is very impressive from the hot days of summer through our -30F winters. This powder really is impressive out of my Browning X-Bolt chambered in .280 Remington. From my sled it'll shoot 1" to 1.25" groups at 200 yards with 140 gr Berger Hunting VLD's in summer or winter with RL-22. In the 30+ years I've been shooting \ reloading I've learned that I can depend on RL-22.

Happy Shootin'
NDMarksman

5-6 years ago, after reading about the uber velocities attained with RL22, I had to try some......

Out of two 22 inch barreled 270's, I got 50-75 fps better velocities with 150 gr Noz PT's and BT's. Accuracy was as good as my old standby H4831 with fullhouse charges of powder.

Then I read about temp sensitivity and some of the RL powders........

Soooo...I still had 20-30 rounds leftover for each rifle from the year's hunts. I always record temps at the range when I chrono, I keep the rifle relatively cool, and don't let the rounds cook in the chamber.

I waited until we had some single digit nights, put the rifles and ammo under the camper shell to "cold soak" overnight.

At the range the next morning, with the truck parked right next to the bench, the chrono in the warm cab and the cable strung to the screens, I repeated my summer's shot strings at ambient temps starting out at 8 degrees and finishing up at about 15 degrees.

Lost ~80 fps average in one rifle, ~110 fps in the other rifle. And my ES went from 22-29 fps respectively for the two rifles, to 80-128 fps respectively for the rifles.

So.....for my 270's with Nosler 150 grainers, RL22 was temp sensitive--a LOT more temp sensitive than H4831 loads that I've since tested in cold weather........



Casey

Those tests of RL22 don't match what I have seen from other tests of RL17 and RL25. RL is very temperature sensitive compared to the Hodgdon extreme powders.

My .243 shooting RL-22 was a whole 'nother animal couple weeks ago, than it was 2 months ago.

60 degrees vs 20 degrees was 2" left, 2" low, and 2" bigger at 300. Never seen such a drastic change.

Well, this is interesting, seems to me that is the reason to check zero often on a hunt if you can. Jack O'Conner wrote of this. I live in CT, so I zero my rifle here in Summer its warm, when hunting season comes long its cooler, so I check to make sure My bullets go were I am looking. Fair enough, my land is just 300 feet about sea level. I go to Colorado to hunt elk, and I am now at the 9000 foot level and low temps, well its cheap insurance to shoot a few shots at a target to make sure my bullets are hitting were they need to go. We get all tied up in knots with 1/2 inch groups and loads and when the seasons change, the power is crap or what have you because our zero is off a bit and the group we just shot is well bigger than than 1/2 inch group we shot in shirt sleeves in July in pretty still air, never taking in consideration the clothes we are wearing while hunting, or the wind. It must be because of temperature Sensitivity or some thing else. Scopes have adjustments for windage and elevation, and they are not glued to one spot.

When you change lot#, all bets are off! This has been my complait with Alliant powders since day one. I shoot R#22, 19, and 25. When you change lot#, reverify your loads.

Always buy Alliant powders in the 5lb'ers at least!

You also have to remember that results in Reloading manuals are for reference only and are an indications of what was safe for that pressure barrel that they were using with their lot# of powder.

Some barrels are faster than others while some custom barrels with custom chambers are a lot faster than sloppy factory barrels, and some lot# of powder are faster than others. You will have to use some common sense as to what is a safe max load in your rifle.

I use a method of putting loaded ammo underneath my arm (like a Dr. that was going to take your temp with a thermometer). I leave the loaded ammo in my arm pit for 5 full minutes then fire it, if you were on the ragged edge of a hot load, you will get extractor marks, case head scuffing, and perhaps very flat primers with stiffened extraction with the ammo that was in your arm pit for 5 minutes.

I think that R#22 got it's bad rap from guys changing powder lot#, I have known of a very slow lot# and a very fast lot#.

It doesn't matter squat how much clothes you're wearing if the crosshairs are steady when the shot goes off, and wind has been accounted for.

And if the exact same load has been shot 200 times in the summer and fall, with no zero or group size change, then the zero moves and the group size doubles when the temps fall 40 degrees, I think it is safe to say the powder might be the culprit.

As is the intent of this post, to find out people's experience with RL-22, and big temperature swings.

We really don't care what Jack O'Conner said about sighting in a rifle, we want to hear YOUR firsthand experiences with RL-22 and big temperature swings. Got any?...