Discussed on another thread here in the last few days...

Personally I don't care for using H 4895 for load reduction, by going too low... especially near a 40% reduction.

However with that in mind last night I went out and loaded 15 rounds, 5 each of H 4895, IMR 4895 and finally IMR 4198.

At three examples were loaded with 15 grains of powder, in a 223 case Considering most 223 loads with H 4895 are 25 grains with a 55 grain bullet. So I used a Speer 55 grain SP, on all bullets. For this example I selected a small pistol primer, from S&B, as I have a bunch. 60% of 25 grain load would be 15 grains.

Here are chronograph results.: you can make your own decisions..

1. 15 grains of H 4895, S&B SP primer, 55 grain Speer SP.

a,) 2002 fps b.) 1902 fps c.) 2079 fps d.) dud e.) dud.

Cases from this test were covered heavily in soot, down most of the case body, and heavily around the rim.
Round 4 & 5, I am blaming the " dud" failure to fire, despite 3 attempts on each, on the primers.

2. 15 grains of IMR 4895, S&B SP primer, 55 grain Speer SP.

a.) 2034 sps b.) 2040 fps c.) 2041 fps d.) 2079 fps e.) 1971 fps

Cases covered in soot but nowhere near as much as H 4895.

3. 15 grains IMR 4198, S&B Small Primer, 55 grain Speer SP.

a.) 2255 fps b.) 2329 fps c.) 2277 fps d.) 2343 fps e.) 2354 fps.

I'll not make judgement on the IMR and Hodgdon 4895 loads, that is for the reader to decide.

IMR 4198 shows why it is my preferred powder in reduced loads in many cartridges especially on "Youth or Ladies" loads.
I find it more accurate in most cartridges versus H4895 and IMR 4895 loads.

I find reduced loads with H 4895 have a louder retort than 4198 or IMR 4895, and better accuracy.
I have experienced better accuracy with IMR 4895 reduced loads vs Hodgdon's H 4895.

Tomorrow I plan on doing the same testing once again, utilizing Small Rifle Primers instead.

Will post the results on this thread tomorrow evening.

38 grains of H4895 behind a 125 grain bullet in my daughter’s 308 gave 2500fps with good accuracy. It kicked like a popgun and she killed a dozen or so deer with it. Initially I loaded the Sierra PH and later switched to the Nosler Accubond. I’m not sure a better whitetail load really exists. 4198 may be magic, but I don’t see how it could be any better. I’m sure there’s lots of ways to get it done.

19.5 gr of H4895 gave me 2,200 fps and will cycle an AR15 in 223.

I like H4895 in my 308 and 708 but don't reduce it.

I have H4198 but not IMR, I'll admit I haven't loaded with it yet but this jogs my memory to try some.

Normally I use bluedot for reduced loads but have been meaning to try the 4198.

Does it matter I have the H variety instead of the IMR?

Kent

I prefer IMR Kent, for a number of reasons. I prefer IMR powders over the Hodgdon /ADI equivalents.

I see more consistency in accuracy, having used thousands of rounds of both.

I like H4895 a lot, but that's sort of a moot point now that it's become unicorn dust. I've pretty much entirely replaced it with Accurate and VV powders in cartridges I'd been using it in.

I did use it for reduced loads in 308 Win, but like you, found it got erratic well before that 60% point big H says can be used safely. For me 75-80% of max was the sweet spot for accuracy and recoil when backing it off with a few different bullets.

I'm down to my last couple pounds of both H- and IMR-4895, and the stuff is earmarked solely for use in the Garand. Varget and 4064 has supplanted it in most of the centerfire hunting rifles I load for anymore.

In order to tame a vicious little German Mauser .30-06 (6 1/2 pounds all up, with a dainty narrow stock) I downloaded with H-4895 to 40 grains (165 Sierra bullets) and achieved Nirvana. Then out of curiosity I did the same trick with 40 grains 4064 which is a skinch under published starting loads, with equal accuracy (quite good sub-MOA) and similar namby-pamby velocity. Those 30-30-ish loads killed quite nicely in our Eastern hardwoods over the last 30 years I've campaigned the rifle, as quite a number of deer give mute testimony to. (Why mute testimony? Well, deer are dead and can't talk anyway.) An afternoon shooting a .30-06 with these loads leaves you fresh as a daisy.

Lesson learned long ago: you don't have to unleash full potential sturm und drang with each pull of the trigger of a mighty rifle just because you're supposed to.

I like the H4895 "reduced loads" in some instances but I am not reducing them anywhere near the lower threshold of 60% of book max charge. I like them more for the flexibility to dip a bit lower than the starting charges for book loads with other powders of that burn rate. For instance, H4895 has been great to push a 185TTSX at 2700FPS in my 22" .338WinMag. It was also nice for bridging the gap between my daughter's 2500fps 7mm-08 120gr H4198 youth load and a 3000fps full-power load. I could pretty much slide the scale wherever I wanted on that load with H4895, from 2600 all the way to 3k. Having said all that, most of my H4895 usage these days is near full-power levels. It's just nice to have the option to back off a a fair bit if the need arises.

I'm putting together a box of 30-06 along similar "somewhat reduced" lines using IMR 4895. I'll be seating 150 grain Interlocks on top of 46 grains of IMR 4895. Approximately a 90% load.

These are for a friend's Ruger American that responded very well to my clone of Hornady's 30-06 vintage match load for Garands.

Makes sense, and you can certainly feel the difference on the shoulder. My .338WM load is around 87% of the velocity for a full-house load and it's great for my uses. Shoots well also.

Similar situation with my 308Win . It's a light little thing built on a Jap, and the stock on it knocks the holy hell out of my face. I'll never change it though, just for nostalgia's sake because the old man built it before I was ever born.

35.5gr H4895 with a 165 Speer is basically a 30-30 load, 2200-ish fps, and really tames the nasty little beast down. It's still not a rifle I shoot for pleasure particularly often, but it's a lot more fun shooting those than full bore loads. The bit of H4895 I have left is pretty much exclusively for that rifle.

I like H4895 quite a bit where it's applicable, and I'm not gonna poo poo it as a reduced load powder, but I also prefer it as a book load powder verses a reduced powder.

It gives stellar accuracy and great speed with an above max load in my 760 35 Rem with both 200 RN Rem core lokts, and the 180 Speer FP.

Just the other day I used it with 150's and a 30-06. 48 gr's gave me a .550 group with Sierra 150 PH's. Middle of the road charge according to Hodgdon.

In admittedly limited testing so far I would agree with what's already been stated.........between the 2, I like 4198 better for reduced loads.

My favorite powder for reduced loads in a 30-06 with 125-130 gr bullets is IMR 4227. Accuracy is outstanding.

I always use a bit more than a 60% of a max load when using a 4895 powder. So far, so good with the results.

Was part of the conversation the other day as this is my current area of emphasis in reloading . Currently tinkering with IMR 4198 logs
in 308. I've been very happy with the 30 grain vicinity for range loads using Speer 125 gr TNT bullets.Have also loaded some
165 grain Grand slam bullets with 42 grains of Varget ( somebody's published min. load ) Was doing a little research in that regard
and have seen loads as low as 39.5 grains . Will probably start there and work up just to see what I like . Also waiting for 168 grain
Speer Gold Dot bullets to reappear so I can continue tinkering for a hunting load.
Our local range is only available to me every other week so testing is taking some time

Well guys,

I promised I'd get this done today, so was able to sneak away from the chain gang, this afternoon at 4'ish.

Yesterday I used a Remington 700 ADL for testing. The bullet OACL was pushed slightly into the lands.
What I grabbed today, was the Ruger 77 VT. It is long throated, so these loads had less pressure than the SP primered loads of yesterday's test. These used S&B Small rifle primers. The long throat, meant less pressure which is shown in the velocity results here. I also added H 4198

Bullets used again were Speer 55 grain SPs. Each charge was 15 grains, this was what a 60% of max load is in a 223, with H 4895, considering a max load being 25 grains. 5 shots with each powder.

1. H 4198, S/B primer, 55 gr Speer SP.
a.) 2023 fps b.) 2277 fps c.) 1978 fps d.) 1957 fps e.) 2274 fps.

2. IMR 4198, S/B primer, 55 gr Speer SP
a.) 2052 fps b.) 2056 fps c.) 2103 fps d.)2097 fps e. ) 2081 fps.

This shows why I prefer IMR 4198 in this type of service. H 4198 gives a velocity deviation of 250 fps. IMR 4198 gives a velocity spread of only 50 fps or less. That is why I say it is more consistent than Hodgdon/ADI's version.


3. H4895, S/B primer, 55 SP Speer.
a.) 1610 fps b.) 1561 fps c.) 1577 fps d.) 1578 fps e.) 1713 fps

4. IMR 4895, S/B primer, 55 Speer SP.
a.) 1899 fps b.) 1817 fps c.) 1865 fps d.) 1794 fps e.) 1891 fps


As can be seen, the Ruger 77/ VT saw less velocity, having a longer throat. This increased with the 15 grains of 4895 loads, but more with Hodgdon/ ADI vs. IMR's.

each case was severely covered in blow back, covering much of the cases in black oily soot. It did not clean up very well just using Steel Wool. They are now getting tumbled, using mineral spirits in with the Tumbling media. I usually leave these tumbling over night, and they will be generally pretty darn clean the following morning.

I'll let you guys draw your own conclusions. I do think a 60% load of H 4895 is too inconsistent and also has extreme velocity spreads, which is probably why it is not what I call consistently accurate. IMR 4895 does much better, even if Hodgdon tells us not to use it...

both 4198s are better candidates for reduced loads in this range. More consistent accuracy, and more consistent velocity spread, than either of the 4895 powders. The brass with the 4198 powders also has MUCH less blow back on them.
Hence easier to clean.

cheers,
seafire.

August 2023.

Thanks Seafire for the effort you spent and the great illustration of powder comparison. Makes me glad I've been studying this
subject and that I couldn't find any 4895 powder . Have you and other contributors to thank for steering me to IMR 4198.
Sure , its like crunching rock salt in my uniflow at times but what the heck whats work to some is fun to others

I don't use a uniflow...

I trained myself with Lee Dippers and a beam scale... old school, but few problems and its surprising pretty accurate when compared to a powder dispenser, even with an expensive one that uses load cell technology.

but happy to help out Goomba

The attraction of H4895 for me is that the same properties that make it good for reduced loads also yield good performance at starting levels, notably in the .30/06 with 150gr bullets. Good velocity and accuracy and all that’s needed in the woods. 46gr with 150gr NPs has shot well in every ‘06 I’ve owned, loaded BTW with a classic Lee loader and a RCBS .308 Competition seater, since I don’t own a regular set of ‘06 dies. Maybe someday I’ll need to bump the shoulders on my cases, but not so far…..

Once I get through dinking around with 5.7x28 loads, I intend to try some starting-level 6CM loads to stretch the barrel life a bit on my Fieldcraft.

When going all the way down to levels that Comrade Seafire is demonstrating I automatically employ 4198, 4759, RL-7 and switch to cast bullets. Heck, that level of performance represents what I usually shoot anyway. Moving up to full power loads is an aberration usually reserved for right before hunting season.

I've always viewed 4895 as my go-to powder for .30-06, for hunting ammo and for replicating the old government load in Springfields and Garands. I've been stuck in the 46-47 grains 4895 + 150-165 bullets level of performance for around five decades now. Why? Accuracy is a given, recoil isn't at the flinch-inducing level, and 2600-2700fps with a good cup-and-core bullet in that weight range will knock a deer ass-over-tin cups in the Appalachian playgrounds I've haunted since I was a kid. Besides that, it performed A-ok at Belleau Wood, Chateau Thierry, Bataan, Normandy, Guadalcanal, etc. etc.

The H 4198 had a velocity spread of 250 fps. Then you state that it had a "....more consistent velocity spread, than either of the 4895 powders."

This is not true according to your own test results.

I used IMR (DuPont ) powders back when I started loading back in the late 60s. A friend of mine who at that time was in his late 30s got me into reloading when I started going to Texas deer hunting with him on a ranch down around Boerne Texas. At that time you could buy surplus military powder (IMR) for a song. 4895 and 4831 were what we used and pretty much loaded everything we shot with those two powders. If I remember right we paid 16$ for 8# or something like that. Of course primers were 3$ a brick and bullets were 7or8$ a box of 100. Good times for sure!😢 Even though Hodgdon has bought IMR...I still use it.

Thanks for posting Seafire. I had mentioned a reduced H4895 .270 win load in the other and your post prompted me to look it up. My goal was a mid range practice load with a 110 grain bullet. I was targeting the 2400 FPS velocity range. That required about a 30% reduction from Hodgdon's max load of 47.5 grains.
Here are my 2011 results:

Thrown charges

34.0 grains 2375 fps, 2340 fps, 2342 fps
35.0 grains 2359 fps, 2331 fps, 2372 fps
36.0 grains 2428 fps, 2406 fps, 2437 fps

Interestingly my notes indicate F215 primers, I had a lot of those to use up after selling my .300 Win Mag. Accuracy was 1 MOA at 100 yards per notes. These were Sierras, IIRC the Hornadys shot tighter.