on all the hunting sites i see so many hunters that get talked into buying very high priced guns ,scopes ,mounts and so on. when all most need is practice or the right ammo for the gun they have.


a low end gun and scope will shoot better groups with the right ammo then most hunters will ever need.

people say you need a 1500.00 gun, 1000.00 scope and 150.00 set of rings are just plain crazy.

how many of you shoot the cheap stuff every hunting season and always get your game ,i know i average 7-10 whitetails a season with rifles that cost less then 500.00 ,scopes that are under 150.00 and rings that cost less then 25.00. i do load my own ammo ....

seeing that I have on order a $15,000 Heym double I may not be the best to comment but here goes:

For years I had two brownings as my primary rifles (a .338 and a .270) both had a boss and I tuned them out of college with Federal ammo. Both were factory orginal (Except I cut the Boss off the .338 soon after) and have Leupy Vari-X II scopes. Even though I begain reloading soon after college, I never bothered to change those two rifles (as you can guess, my collection grew with my income ) A good home bedding job and a little tweaking can in fact turn the vast majority of factory rifles into real shooters - some don't even need that.

The fact is though, that most people who post on sites like this are truly nuts (see first line of my post ) and are always experimenting.

The one exception I make is in optics. You can never see too well !! I came to Leica Ultravids through painful experience and wasted money.

I bet the average poster shoots those cheaper rifles too. I have taken elk and deer every year except last year( broken ribs) for about 20 yrs. My four rifles are;

Model 88 Winchester .308, bought in 64 for $147 wears a Weaver V-7 scope that was $49 I beleive

Swede 96 Sportorized 6.5, wears 6x Leopld scope. I have about $130 in the scope and less than $200 in the gun.

Marlin44 mag Mdel 94. Paid about $275 for it.

Win Model 70, feather weight .06. made in 52. Was my father in law's and I have the reciept he paid $100 for it. He left it inhis camper trailer onetime and the camper leaked. It wws covered in rust, we had to hammer the bolt open. Stock was completely shot, I order a used barel from Numrich for it,and made a new stock. Polished up the reciever the best I could and had it reblued. Barrel was $60, bluing was $35. It had 4 x Glenfield scope onit which I replaced with another Weaver V-7 I had around. A friend gave me a new Leupold 2-8x scope which it wears now. When I put the new scope on it , the gun looked like a cow pie with crutons on it,so I refinished the stock last winter.
Those two V-7's have accounted for more deer and elk than most hunters kill .

That is less than $1000 for all 4 rifles and scopes

If I could talk anyone into doing something they didn't already want to do, I'd be working in politics insted of hanging around on a internet site with a bunch of rifle loonies.

can I get an AMEN ?!?!?!

It don't take much talking, to get a guy convinced there are better options than a NEF. Even if it costs more........Don

+1

A lot of people are afraid of what others will think if they show up with a common vanilla Model 700, Savage, or some brand no one recognizes, like Howa, Tikka, etc.

I grew up on a large plantation that had a club and was around bird hunters every Saturday, from dove season in September to duck, to quail through March. A lot of these were older businessmen, and a few young up-and-comers. The young studs all had the nicest Browning and Beretta doubles they could buy. The old guys (and richest) who had the respect for shooting ability, carried old Foxes and Model 12s.

But I am all for buying a nice rifle and enjoying it, especially one made just for you and your hunting style. Better to have one custom Mauser or a slick Model 71 Winchester than to run through a dozen rack rifles that just don't turn you on.

I buy what I like and can afford, and don't really worry about what others guys have.

sometimes the NEF IS the better option..

may not have made it clear in the original post but those two brownings are still primary hunting rifles for me and I've killed more game with those two than all the others combined
shot 'em both today as a matter of fact!

Hunt with your cheap $hit...what do I care? What do you care what I hunt with and how much it costs?

I tend to agree with you. IMHO a stock M700 with a tuned trigger and bedded is capable of MOA. I've never owned a true custom but have tweaked just about every rifle I've owned. Most shoot MOA or a tad better.

For example: this past fall/winter I decided I needed all synthetic/SS rifles as my primary rifles. I sold 3 wood stocked rifles, bought 4 M 700's (25-06, 30-06, 7 RM, 300 SAUM). Overlooking the overlap, I have less then $2000 in these 4 (~ $500 out of pocket). I've tuned the triggers on all (3-3.5 lbs), replaced 2 bolt shrouds ($80), bought 3 sets of Talleys (~ $125), re-used the Leupie VX II 3-9x40 on the 3 wood stocked rifles. I'm putting at least 3 of them in Bansners next year. Strongly suspect I'll be out the door on all 4 rifles for less than $3000. They'll last the rest of my life and shoot MOA or a bit better every day.

I don't see the need for 0.5 MOA and/or alot more cash outlay. I'm spending my money on tags............

Having a rough day there Jim?.........

Casey

nah, just wondering how it would play if I came on and asked the same question but using the opposite analogy..."why do some hunters think they can get by with cheap $hit?" Post like his make me chuckle! "I take 7-10 deer a year with stuff that costs xx number of dollars" Translation: "I buy the best I can afford to hunt with and thought I'd come here and take a poke at people that desire and can afford something more expensive.".

+1

+ 2

you guys probably scared him away now

Is that a bad thing?

I wanted him to trash me about the Heym

I have the Leica 10x42 Ultra's. Purely tremendous!

I guess I could have thrown in my 8 year duaghter is waiting on her custom from Karl as well, to add a little fuel to the fire

Here, let me help:

"hey, whaddaya think ya betta than me?"

oh you don't know the half of it! You've been listening to me talk about it for six months now. Wait intil I actually have in my grubby litte paws (my wife is looking over my shoulder dictating this) - you'll never hear the end of it !

Nothing wrong with buying an expensive gun and scope, or shooting premium ammo, or going on hunts that cost more than some folks make in a year.

Can�t truthfully recall of any instance where anyone has said �you need a 1500.00 gun, 1000.00 scope and 150.00 set of rings�. But I�m only 56.

My most expensive rifle cost $475 NIB. My least expensive was $225. Most expensive scopes, by a considerable margin, are used Leupold Vari-X III�s, a 4.5-14x AO and a 3.5-10x AO, both about $350.

Not suffering much, though. Here�s a couple samples:

$350 Remington M700 .308 Win (used), $350 Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x AO (used)




$300 Ruger M7 .257 Roberts (used), $350 Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14x AO (used)



$375 Ruger M77 MKII (canoe paddle), $189 Burris Fullfield II Ballistic Plex, 5 shots, clean barrel, 100 yards


All of which is not the same as saying I wouldn;t like to have some rifles that cost more. In fact I can think of several. Quite a few, actually. And time to shoot them, and expensive hunts to take them on - preferably in far away places...

Guns are all fun,I have Savages on up to Sako's and a custom in the works.If she shoots doesn't matter much to me. It's kinda like this ,a Chevet and a Mercedes will both get ya to the store,It's just how much style and enjoyment ya want on the ride there...

Cheap but decent guns are fun and useful. I bought myself a $300 old Husqy this year for my birthday. Quality guns that cost a bit are fun and useful. I plan to buy myself an expensive drilling next year.

Optics are not the place to sacrafice on quality, but a wide range of prices can be found for decent optics.

What is truly valuable in this life is anything that you truly enjoy. Spend every dollar you can afford on what you enjoy. Enjoy all that you can afford as much as you can. Time is too expensive to waste worrying about the other guy's gear.

Fireplug

This is the advice I give newbies when asked. Guns? You can get a good stick, used even, for a song. I see Rem 700s in the rack all the time that look in good shape for under $500. Top it with a Loopie VXII 3-9 and you got a right fine rig for $800-$850. Still under a grand if you go VXIII.

But, like you said there's joy in many of the paths to travel. A little tinkering for accuracy and reloading makes even a factory gun uniquely mine.

the reason i posted this is, everytime you see someone post ,like which rings are should i buy, or which scope should i buy . 90%of the answers will be only the very expensive stuff ,when you can put the cheapest rings and scope on most rifles and kill a animal as far as you can see him. i've killed them and seen many friends do it as well with 15.00 rings and a 50.00 scope. and over the years i've seen just as many high end scopes fail as cheaper ones.

280 fair point on the throwing pokes at those with more/better guns. If that was the intent of the post, I'm on board with you, but I didn't initially read it that way.

I know of polar examples that demonstrate my point. I know a guy with a semi-custom M700 in 300 WM � jewel trigger, pillar bedded, shilen barrel, VX III � nice rifle. He talks a good story but can�t hit shiite with it. Misses most everything he shoots at. He makes derogatory comments about Savage 99�s and Savage bolt actions. He�s a doctor and can afford such a rifle. My father-in-law is on the other end. He owns 3 rifles � 2 are Savage 99 and are in the Johnnie B �Gray Rat� category. Thats all he cares to spend. You don�t want to be a critter anywhere within 200 yards of him if he decides your going to be dinner.

My point: I�ve seen a little too much gun snobbery at times. Not the good natured ribbing but outright �That is the biggest POS I�ve ever seen�. Maybe but possibly that�s all the guy/gal can afford. I spent more than few years with Tasco�s and Bushnell Banners, M77�s and re-worked Mausers, unbedded actions and crappy triggers. I�ve always tried to help folks obtain the best they can afford � a tweaked M700, M70, M77 is within reach of most. That�s how I interpreted the initial post.

It�s a gradual awakening to gun snobbery <grin>.

-- BW

Dude,

If that's the way you roll, then have a friggin' ball man! But if you ask such a question, and rationalize it with logic like that above, then you weren't really capable of understanding the answer to your query in the first place.

srw - the reason for that is simple: some variables are known quantities as Stick used to expose freqently. Your ring example: the difference between a $15 crappy set of rings and a $38 set of Talleys is $23 - and a world of difference in quality and reliability.

On the other hand, the differences between a $300 Leupie VXIII and A $1500 Swarovski are IMHO not nearly as great. I think Joe Average could do quite well for the rest of his life with VX III Leupie's - and more importantly not notice much difference between the two, other than $1200 missing from his wallet.

The botom line is simple: Buy the best you can afford. It's a priceless commodity if you have a scope failure when the biggest Mule Deer, Elk, Bear, etc walks into range. The difference betwen "known quantities" and cheap shiite ain't that much.

I'd be willing to bet that the total difference between the cheapest rifle and associated components known to man and known quantities ain't all that much.

bw,

Fair enough, but the answer to the question is the same no matter the intent of the post...I don't recommend anything, as most don't on here when asked, based strictly on the price. And if he can't understand why, then the question begged for an answer he can't understand.

I'm with you.

bw,

I'll add this. I don't begrudge a single human for having more than I do...if I did I'd hate a lot of folks. I don't take pokes, to their face at least :), at people that hunt with cheap $hit. Facts are most people hunt with something like the original poster described and as long as they know what to do with it and its functional...then its ok with me whatever it is. Here's the thing about the original post, and I think he restated it in his second post...he comes across as asking campfire members to justify to him their choice of tools and the amount of money they choose to spend. Where I come from If I was at a party and went up to a guy in a $2000 Brooks Bro's. suit and asked him to justify why he spent so much money when he could have clothed himself at S&K just like me for about $200...that would be considered rude and in poor taste. And he'd likely just grin and say: "If you have to ask, then you wouldn't understand the answer."

Great rifles do not have to be expensive. What they DO have to be is accurate, dependable in mechanical function, and hold point of impact really well through varying conditions encountered where you hunt. They also have to be chambered in a cartridge the shooter can REALLY handle, and loaded with great bullets. Then the shooter has to learn the rifle and load. That is it....If these characteristics are present, everything else is tweaking and embellishment. Course, you are more likely to get these things if you design them into the rifle, and this CAN cost a lot, but not always.

In scopes,it is far simpler than it seems if you read this web site much. My experience has been that high-dollar scopes may have fabulous glass, but big money does not buy ruggedness and dependability; neither does buying variables. For example, if you offered me a SWARO AV and a Leup 4X for a once in a lifetime moose/caribou hunt in the NW Territory, I'm taking the 4X everytime. Why? Cause I've seen the Swaro crap the bed after less than a hundred rounds from a 7 mag; untold thousands have been fired under 4x Leups without incident. Variable leups? Broke them ,too but it always took a LOT of rounds to do it. And the idea that you NEED boutique glass and a 56mm vari-something to see a half-starved forkhorn in upper NY state, is a notion only for the serially-obsessed.

One of the best deer hunters I knew used a thoroughly beat rem 721 in 270 with a 3x Weaver to kill big wilderness bucks in the woods of Maine; he was a crack NRA competitor as well. In the end,the guy behind the gun is more important than the cost of the equipment, so long as his stuff is RELIABLE and field-worthy.

Bob,

Somebody's wife is going to read that crap and next thing you know we got CHAOS at the campfire!

maybe not 100%

If all you've ever driven are Pinto's and Vega's you'll never figure out why real car nuts buy Mercedes and BMW's...'cause they can all can get you to where you want to go - right?

I like a good honest tool that gets the job done.

I do agree that there are a LOT of gun/scope/rangefinder/etc. snobs on these sites. That's just the nature of these forums. 90% of good ole' boys shooting granddad's old rifle don't hang out on these sites yacking alot of BS, getting into arguments and attacking each other. Lot's of people with too much time/money on their hands.

I do get some very useful info from these sites on load development, good hunting stories, etc. I don't need to compare myself or my equipment to others. I'd rather be in the woods or up on the river.

+1 Though my wife might argue about the "can afford" part .........................DJ

Ok - I'll do it for him - you are spending that much on a furren rifle with iron sights? Are yiou nutz?

If you want a serious answer let me know
Otherwise I did it for two reasons: 1.) I didn't think my 416 Rigby kicked enough (if it hurts it's workin', right?) and 2.)I didn't think the penetration of the 400 gr bullet on the elk I shot with the 416 lived up to the hype

If you want a serious answer let me know
Otherwise I did it for two reasons: 1.) I didn't think my 416 Rigby kicked enough (if it hurts it's workin', right?) and 2.)I didn't think the penetration of the 400 gr bullet on the elk I shot with the 416 lived up to the hype :grin

I like to buy things once, I find it less expensive that way. I like to buy good stuff as aposed to buying cheap stuff. This dose not mean that the only good scopes around are 1500+ jobs. Nope a Leupold will do to the job and then some with out a hitch. In the end its all in the eye of the beholder. I myself would love to have a drilling, 7 x 57 R double with a 20 or better yet a 16 ga barrel under with a claw mounts for a 6x 42 scope for my white tail hunting. I don't have one thou it would be a pratical thing for this CT deer hunter, since there are also turkeys around on my land during the season. But in order to have somthing like that you would pay more that what some here would be confortable paying, me to. This is not to say I have not looked at F.W. Heym's on the net, so much eye candy.

Looking down on someone with an inexpensive rifle is just as bad as jelously looking up at someone with an expensive one.

Everyone has different means. Just because someone can afford something nicer doesn't mean they are any better than someone who can't. Having to hunt on the cheap doesn't make someone any more noble or practical than someone who spends more. Spending lots doesn't make you any higher class.

It's not about Money! It's about enjoying the company of fine people at the shooting ranges and hunting camps no matter what their income level. A Rich Slob hunter and a Poor Slob hunter are both just Slob hunters. A good hunter is a good hunter rich or poor or wherever they may fall in between.
I think if we all just try and worry about being good ethical hunters and good people to hunt with and be around the other crap just isn't worth worrying about.......................................DJ

+1 DJ,that sums it up perfectly

DJ: Good post. +1.

'cmon guys - it's Friday afternoon. We know you're correct but why'd you have to go and get serious all of a sudden?

I like to mix quantity and quality, inexpensive adds more to the safe for me. But quality never lacks...

+1 good post dj.

well atleast i got a fast response on this thread, my point is i have a friend that buys nothin but nikon monarch scopes and if he doesn't pay at least a grand for a rifle he feels like he didnt get anything useful. he is a handloader and spends lots of time on loads. he shoots as good as i do . but,he cant seem to get a rifle that will out shoot either of my savage 110's with cheap scopes. we can shoot each others guns and my cheap setups still win.
he glass beds ,puts levels on scopes ,pays big money for trigger jobs . it doesnt seem to help .

i've even loaded for his guns ,it just dont matter. here's what i own in good shootin rifles

savage 110 7mm ,weaver bases,tasco rings, simmons 4x12x50
savage 110 22-250 ,weaver bases and rings, tasco 6x24x40
remington 700 ,270win,weaver rings and bases,swift 4x12x40
tikka t3 270win,tikka rings ,swift 4x12x40
savage 12 22-250, weaver bases ,tasco rings, swift 8x32x50


all of these setups,with handloads are well under 1 inch groupers at 100yds

There might be a reason...........

Dude, you said a mouth full!

srw,

IF I were inclined to argue with you and tell you what I think is the correct equipment...which I'm not ...I couldn't really quibble over your sticks....but your glass...again...to each his own.

What caliber are you getting? I have two good friends that have doubles - one a 470 Nitro Chapuis and one a 500 Nitro Searcy. Both are fun as hell to shoot - although both those guys shoot them much better than I do. (btw - the 470 Nitro is about the same recoil as my 416 Remington)

Jeff

As DJ Paintless stated above:

My best hunting buddy is a trophy hunter. He has more trophies hanging on his wall than anybody I know. He comes home from South Texas with a 160+ B&C buck every year. He has several Gold Medal Axis trophies, all over 33". He shot them all with a Remington 700 that was given to him and chambered in 30-06. He saved his money for four years and had it stocked with a Brown Precision. He saved another 8 years and scope it with a Swarovski. Only one of his critters was whacked with the Swarovski. Prior scope was a lowly K-Mart Blue Light Special: 3-9x Leupold Gold Ring as they were known then.

Personally I DESPISE 30-06's.

I own a Weatherby Mark V chambered in 7 Wby. It has been Cera-Koated, Swarovski mounted & custom 20 oz stock installed. I have $2400 in this rig and it shoots .400" groups. I know a multitude of people whose cheaper rifles shoot just as good or better. My gun doesn't perform any better than most but IT IS WHAT I WANTED and so I TREATED myself to it. Years back I would never have dreamed of spending $1000 on a rifle much less a scope too. But, I always knew that if I ever bought the rifle I really wanted and had the means to do so, it would be a Weatherby.

Shoot what you want, pay what you want but the type &/or cost of the rifle you tote does not your character state.

Utah: Uh, sorry, musta lost my mind........ Gimme time and I'll revert to normal.

280: Are wives REALLY allowed to read what we post here??!! Time for a restraining order.......I thought this was off-limits to wives????

+1

I think you will find that good hunters and good marksman can bring game home every year no mattter what they shoot. Be it an old Springfield Trapdoor, to the newest, most modern whiz bang shoot'em at two miles rifle. Either topped with iron sights to a $2000 piece of glass. These guys just use it as a tool. Some guys just like the look and feel of a finely crafted pieced of machinery. Be it a firearm or anything else. Some guys need a more utilitarian firearm that has all stainlees metal,and a synthetic stock for those wet climates.

Then there are the guys that just don't get it and never will. They never learned to hunt or place a bullet where it should go and keep buying more and more technical advanced fireearms in the hopes that it will serve as crutch to make them better hunters and shooters

When I use a $50 scope the rings don�t matter much, unless my intent is to later replace the scope.

When I use a $200-$350 scope I opt for more expensive rings. Unfortunately quality doesn�t come free and you often/usually get what you pay for. If you want to chance rings that may be misaligned and/or machined to generous tolerances, and have poor support from the manufacturer, go for the cheapies. Tight tolerances, extra features and good factory support will cost more.

My first scope was a $49 (or was it $39?) Bushnell 3-9x Sportview, purchased in 1982. That scope performed yeoman�s work until 2001 when I finally replaced it. Everything I shot using that scope died quickly, but optical quality really sucked. The last time I purchased a used rifle it came a newer model of the Sportview and optical quality was so poor, compared to the scopes I normally use these days, I took it off immediately.

Have never had rings or bases fail but have had scope failures (Bushnell and Leuold). The Bushnell was a throw-away because factory repair cost considerably more than a new replacement scope; the Leupold, purchased used, went back to the factory and was fixed for free.

As a result of my experiences, my recommendation is to buy quality. If $50 scopes and $15 rings are all you can afford, get them. For most, however, $150-$200 for a scope (new or used) and $65 for rings and bases is within reach. My Marlins all sport Warne Quick Detach rings and bases ($65), my Rugers have Ruger rings ($75 when I need a different height), my lone Remington has Leupold rings and bases (can�t recall the cost) and most of my scopes are used Leupold ($100-$350).

I�m not an equipment snob but have come to recognize and appreciate differences in quality. There is a great deal of difference between the cheap stuff and the moderately priced stuff. There is also a great deal of difference between the moderately priced stuff and the top-end stuff, but the cost/benefit ratio is not as great as between the cheap and moderately priced stuff. IMHO.

Coyote: Good post.

Ngrumba: I ordered the 470 (over the 450) mostly for brass availability. I've shot Blasers & Chapuis and seen Kreighoff,Rigby, H&H, and WR. Once I saw the Heym I was done for. The Blaser was a 470 with a LH stock and it felt better than the Chapuis in .375 with a RH stock.
FWIW, I find the 470's recoil to be less than the 416 Rigby with full loads. Some of this I know is fit, but also the 416 is "faster" and "sharper" -- I can shoot more per session without tiring with the 470. Mostly I've always wanted one and now was a good time as an Africa trip is about 1.5-2.0 years out

+1Coyote!

SRW brings up a fair point. There are some posters here that make it sound like anything less than a custom leup 30mm tactical sitting in $200 rings and bases will not function. I submit most of us would disagree with that.

The simple fact that you are at this site implies that you are a gun geek. A Rem 700 that shoots sub moa is a good rifle. It is also not overly interesting. A custom rifle is generally more interesting to this crowd. Custom rifles are not inexpensive. Human nature is to talk about that which is interesting. I believe that's why a lot of the posting here involves cool but expensive hardware.

However, there are some people here (like elsewhere in life)who do like to play "mine's bigger". A gentleman should always respond tho their insecurity with grace.

A gentleman wouldn't mention it

did i forget to mention that these rifles have taken somewhere between 175-200 whitetails, 10-12 bear,and at least 2000 groundhogs.

and 280rem,for most hunting you dont gain a thing by buying better glass . most shots are within 200yds on deer , and you need very little power for that, infact most whitetails i've takin i really wouldn't have needed a scope at all.

someone said there first scope was a bushnell sportview,i have one i bought new in about 1980-81 i had it on my 700 rem til i fell and scratched the side of it up. i still use it ,its on my cva hunterbolt muzzleloader and i've killed 30plus deer with it on that gun.


the most expensive scope i own is on my rem xp100 in 221FB
,its a burris 2-7 . ofcourse i bought for half price at a yard sale still in the box.

Well you must be the luckiest sum's a bitch to have taken all that game and shot that many rounds without so much as a hick up with that fine selection of optics ya run...I'd be in line for a PowerBall ticket if I was you....

+1

Put any of that glass on a 300 or 338 see how long it lasts. I'm thinking the over-under be 3 shots

There's a prime example of what I'm talking about...you're not capable of understanding the answers to the questions you've asked.


ditto dvdegeorge!

Horse and water come to mind....

Hadn't thunk of it that way, but yep!

Unfortunately these days, it's getting even harder just to lead the horse to water, much less drink ...

there's some damn stubborn horses around these here parts ...

Don�t get me wrong, I�m not bashing Sportviews. When I got my first one back in 1982 the $39 or $49 I spent for it was a stretch financially and I seriously considered using sticking with the iron sights on my Ruger 7mm Rem Mag. As it turned out the Bushnell Sportview rode the 7mm Rem Mag for 20 years and took a lot of game. Further, based on the abuse it survived, was a fairly rugged piece of equipment.

There is a reason you can still buy Sportview scopes new for $39, and it isn�t because they are top quality. It isn�t because they are nitrogen filled or have 1/4� click adjustments or quality optics that deliver brighter, crisper and clearer images. It isn�t because they are manufactured to tight tolerances or have a great warranty,

I agree better optical clarity doesn�t count for much on a bright day when a deer is standing in the open at 200 yards, but not all shooting is done in bright conditions or even at deer. Quite frankly, my Sportview was a PITA in low-light situations and when trying to shoot tiny groups at long ranges it was far from my first choice.

Thanks, but I�ll take my Leupold, Burris or even my Simmons scopes every time. By the way, you can buy them used, too � and most of mine were.

Question � I�m going to assume your Burris 2-7 cost a bit more than a $39 Sportview (still available at swfa.com as today). If there is no advantage, why did you spend the extra money?

So if a person doesn't shoot one of those big magnums, does he have to spend a lot of cash on a scope?

A 7 mag probaby doesn't qulaify as a big magnum, but I ran a Weaver V-7 that cost about $60 on it for over 15 years without a hick up using Weaver bases, shooting about 100-150 rds a year.
I think alot of guys refer to hersay when talking about scope failure. How many scope failures have you actaully encountered in your life?

Have had $18 Busnells on rifles up though Leupold VX-III on rifles. Interesting ,the only scope that went south was a Leuopld 3-9x. All took a lot of scabbard beating.

The first deer I killed was with a .410 shotgun shooting a 45 colt 250 gr lead bullet out through that smooth bore at about 40 yds. Yea it can be done

I run what I run from personal experience.Have had cheap Bushnell,Simmons,Tasco and Weavers crap on me ,and usually it was at a most inopportune time...Run what ever works for you

Wow, 100-150 rounds a year! How do you find the time?

bwinters, the simmons has held up to over a 100 rds a year for the 5-6 yrs.and that light 110 savage in 7mm mag has plenty of
recoil.

coyote hunter, i only payd 125.00 for the burris new in the box,some guy bought and sold the same week,he said he just didnt like it.

280rem,i'm beginning to wonder if your capable of anything........

Of the group of 5-6 hunters my dad elk hunted with from the early 60's through the 70's, the guy who killed the most elk used a beat-up M721, with a RIMFIRE scope, and his handloads consisted of whatever brass he could scrounge (regardless of brand) what ever kind of powder worked (he would sometimes be shooting 2-3 different powders), and any bullet--just as long as was 180 grainers.

My dad has been using a M77 06 he bought in 1969, with a mid 60's Bushnell Scopechief......the last time it was sighted in on paper was the early 90's (I know, I'm the one who did it).......that rifle has probably accounted for 30+ elk.

It's about the hunter.....something we don't pay much attention to on these websites..........

Casey

Based on what I've read so far about your ability to evaluate and understand the capabilities of various guns and optics...I'll take that for what it's worth. Nada!

So you have between 1500 and 2250 rounds through that tube....Barrel has to be showing accuracy problems by now....

It never hurts to spend a few extra bucks on a good scope. Its mechanical integrity is the only thing that insures rifle and your sight are pointing in the same direction. Guess what I'm saying is, if you gotta make a decision between a "bubble-pack" variable, or a solid fixed power of GOOD make, take the fixed power. This is not about getting it done for as cheap as you can...

saddlesore: FWIW, I've found many scopes will crap out at about 20 rounds of .375 H&H (these under $100) and even the better ones ($250-$350) at about 600 rounds. I've wrecked two of two Leupy handgun scopes ($250 range) one on a .44 and one on a .454.
I've wrecked a couple Bushnelles on a .338 (<100 rds) and 4 leupy scopes (VX-II) on .375s. These tended to last about 600 rounds give or take. I've stuck with leupy as their repair/replacement CS has always come through in < 14 days.
I've had one scope fail (Vari-X II) on a .270

maybe I'm jinxed or maybe I shoot >1000 rds per year of .30 + guns and stuff happens....

I can't like the cheap crap . . .

UtahLefty, I'd say what you described is about par for the course.........

I normally use to run a several thousand rounds a year in competition, but the 7 mag never got a lot of use. I did rebarrel it with a douglas barrel after awhile. I mostly shoot handgun now, 5-6000 rounds per year. Less shoulder stress. So just because someone says they only shot a gun 150 rds or so a year, don't automaticaly assume they don't shoot or know what they are talking about.
UTahlefty. That is some good info. I asked becasue I was curious. I was just wondering exactly how many guys actually trashed out scopes or just heard about them.

Utah: You are not jinxed! Been about my experience as well. My benchrest shooting buddies tell me after 800 rounds, replace the scope whether it needs it or not, especially a variable.

I will say that the scope that has lasted the longest, taken the worst pounding, and kept trucking, is the old, "long" 4X leup. I have broken only one in many years of use, and that one lived its entire life on 300 WM's, 338's and finally quit on a blown out 35/375 Improved. Have no idea exactly how many rounds but it numbered in the thousands.

good to have some corroboration guys! (and find out I'm not a total freak )
bob: that reminds me: I currently have one of the old M8 4x scopes on one 375. It crapped out after < you guessed it 650-700 rds>. They took it apart and never documented anything but it seems to work again after the overhaul -- only have about 80 rds through it so far...

Utah: 700 rounds of 375 is a lot of abuse. That old one of mine went from rifle to rifle; it was beat up just from being remounted so much, and hunted . Back then I did not think they ever broke! Then, in the late 80's and early 90's , I started using variables....the troubles began..................


Anyone tells me they NEVER broke a scope, they are unwittingly saying they don't shoot too much........

SRWSHOOTER,

If you have to ask a question like that, you'll never understand the answer.

To some, guns are just tools, nothing more. To others, they are more, much more.

Put yourself into either camp, although it's obvious form your question where you are.

Both camps work equally well, it just a matter of how you get there.

'Nuff said.

MM

saddlesore �

A person never HAS to �spend a lot of cash on a scope�.

One generally DOES, however, get what one pays for. As noted in my previous posts, the Bushnell Sportview that served so well for 20 years in other aspects, including taking a lot of abuse, was not a good scope in low light situations. Nor was the image as bright, clear and crisp as my more expensive scopes. When it broke it was a throw-away.

Already talked about my two scope failures, no need to repeat it here. I will say I thought I had a failure on a Simmons 44 Mag 6.5-20x AO that was mounted on my Savage .22-250. Simmons replaced the scope with a Whitetail Expedition. The problem turned out to be the rifle rather than the scope. I sold the rifle and got another .22-250. And I liked the Simmons 44 Mag so much better than the Whitetail Expedition that I bought another one.

In my safe you will find the following:

Simmons Whitetail Expedition 6.5-18x AO w/ target knobs, factory replacement for Simmons 44Mag which was around $150 new.
Simmons 44 Mag, 6.5-20x illuminated mil-dot w/ target knobs, purchased used, $115. (.22-250)
Simmons Aetec 2.8-10x AO, purchased new in 2002, around $145. (7mm Mag)
Leupold M8 4x, purchased used, $100. (.375 Win)
Leupold M8 4x, used, came on like new Ruger M77 .257 Roberts, $400 for the combo.
Leupold M8 2x pistol scope, purchased used, $100. (.44 Mag)
Leupold VX II 2-7x 33, purchased new, $275. (.45-70)
Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14x AO, purchased used, $350. (.257 Roberts)
Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x AO, purchased used, $350. (.308 Win)
Burris Fullfield II Ballistic Plex 3-9x, purchased new, $189. (.300 Win Mag)
Burris Fullfield II Ballistic Plex 3-9x, purchased new, $189 (.30-06)
Bushnell 3-9x32 Sportview, came on (and immediately removed from) a very good condition Marlin .30-30, $225 for the combo.

Of those scopes, the only one that will never get mounted on a rifle is the Bushnell Sportview. Some day it will go to a gun show and it won�t come back. Who knows, I might get lucky and get $10 for it. I COULD mount it up and COULD shoot a lot of game with it, but no thanks, there are, IMHO, far better options.

srwshooter,

You come here with a whopping 212 posts in almost 2 years and you call people out on thier choice of gear. Some, as they are want to do here, wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt with your original post. I'll break it down:



I've never seen anybody talked in to anything on this or any other site. I see people routinely ask for advice and hash out why something is recommended over another. I have read people who have made their own comparisons and have become enlightened to quality, or more importantly the best value that combines price point and good quality. And dammit, some people have the means and can afford anything they want and will buy the best they can. You mentioned a friend that's always buying more, newer, better equipment but still can't shoot. We all know someone like that. I also know people that own $hitty equipment and blame the equipment everytime they miss. AND I can trade you stories about guys that can afford things you and I can't even dream of AND can shoot circles around me or you too. I know a man that has several, not just one, custom made and fitted shotguns...the kinds that costs $10K plus. His latest projects have been in side by side 410s so as to make shooting a little more of a challenge for him. He will absolutely wear out just about anybody but a full time professional shooter on sporting clays, a dove field, quail, or ducks...and he does it with the most expensive shotguns you can imagine in .410 and 28ga.

Do you have plates and silverwear to eat off and with? Do you need more than a paper plate and your fingers to get food in your mouth? Chairs and sofa in your living room? The floor wont hold you just fine? Own or rent a home, apt, or trailor? Why not just a tarp strung in the trees? Dale Jr. and Jeff Gordon don't need them fancy race cars to make it around the track at Talladega...a Yugo would get them around and around.



I saved this seperate from the above as it needs special attention. Better? Nope, gonna call BS on that! Thats NOT true, and you couldn't possibly back that claim up except by qualifying the claim at the end with: "then sicmost hunters need." How much accuracy one needs is really something not worth debate, as its an individual thing, AND depdends on each individual shot's conditions. If you'll read the responses carefully, you can see that while the above is not true I'll give you that on any day a cheap gun and scope might likely shoot as well as a well tuned, "high end" gun and scope. However the tone of the majority of posts is that people here have discovered that better equipment on the whole will perform as good or usually better, and be more durable and trustworthy over time and in rough conditions. While I agree that on any day, if you bought the right gun (one accurate out of the box), and got your "cheap scope" mounted in the "cheap rings" properly and tight, and loaded the right ammo for it or in it, it will shoot as accurately as any gun. But, I'd wager it wont shoot that way every day over the long haul of abusive hunting, wont hold POI year after year, and will, on average have something crap out far more often than a "more expensive" rig.



Now, maybe those wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt were still right...maybe you meant specifically ONLY those saying you need guns/glass/rings at those very specific price points are crazy. However I read the whole tone of your post as an general indictment of those that prefer more than you are willing to spend or can afford. I have never posted anything on this forum demanding anybody else justify the equipment they run or the money they spent...even though some of it may not be what I'd run whether I could afford it or not. You have no business doing it either.




I wont even go there on your brag about the number of deer per year...yadda yadda yadda. Too many issues and attitudes there that are personal and varied.

I said it before, I'll say it again. Run what you want in the field. It's your choice. The responses here ought to tell you that the answers you'd hoped for but didn't get (ie a rallying of the "el cheapo" troops to come to your defense) means you've come to a sight where even the members that can't ALWAYS afford "high end" everthing, do recognize that there are differences in quality in equipment and strive to employ the best they can afford and not employ eqipment based solely on how cheap it is because on any day "It'll do", and that most here believe largely "you get what you pay for" is a truism.

Since some of are comparing:

My current stash:

>Ruger M77, .243, Loopy VariX III 2.5-8 (My first rifle ever, given to me my father 20+ years ago...now wears a tupperware stock because the original broke and it originally wore a Vari XII 2-7)

>Rem. M700SS, .280Rem, Zeiss Diavari 3-9, Pillar/glass bedded, chryo treated...full accurizing treatment short of re-bbling. (This is my everyday field gun and with the right handloads shoots one hole groups day in and out)

>Rem M700CDL, .280Rem, Loopie VariX II 3-9, Glass bedded, some polishing, re-cut target crown.

>Steyr SBS, 7mmRM, Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10, no extra work. (The most accurate gun I currently own)

>Custom Mauser 98, 30-06, Loopy VXII 2-7

There have been a few others come and go...all along the same theme as above.

Also:

>Springfield 1911 Custom .45ACP

>Winchester Model 50, 20ga (a gift from my grandfather 30+ years ago)

Dam 280 that post nearly filled this page out......Why don't you tell us how you realy feel........

montanaman ,i am a contractor and own many tools (too many really) and buy good tools for safety reasons mostly,but i've seen to many hunters spend thousands of dollars thinking it well help me kill an animal. they coulda save a bundle and did the same thing,if they would just learn the gun and thereself is capable of.

i didn't say i don't own any high priced guns,i'm saying you don't have to spend a fortune to hunt.

280rem ,just how must are you willing to wager? i see more high priced guns in a week then most will see in a lifetime. i also out shoot 90% of them weekly with my cheap setup's.

and i guess your 5900plus posts here makes you the expert ,lol

You outshoot guns? Really? Look dude, maybe you didn't read it...run your cheap rigs if that makes you feel good! I don't care how good a shot you are...your post was about equipment. But thats a standard bait and switch tactic used to justify cheap equipment. The old "field accuracy vs. bench accuracy" argument is a big one too. I'll wager you this and guarentee I'll win. Your cheap rigs don't make you a better shot!

Show me some 300 yard groups like these and then we'll talk....








And they were shot with this not so cheap rig



and that same rig took these 2 Antelpe one at 280 yards and the Doe at 777 yards one shot each





Now show a few El Cheapo kills and give the details........

I buy the rifles I want to buy, and I hunt with the rifles I want to hunt with, pure and simple, and with or without anyone else's approval. If someone wants to set his own rifle budget and stay within those boundries, and that's cool with me.

I'll do the same............

AD

I doubt that!
srwshooter.......you can have your cheap crap! been there done that, will NEVER go back!
I'll stick with my Rem titanium's, Leupold's, Swarovski's, and other high doller stuff....and guarantee you could not outshoot me.
I think others will agree with me that "you get what you pay for" and by darn I'm getting the high doller stuff because it is simply better.

+1

OK guys, some of you have made some very good points and I hpoe those of you that spent an above average amount of $$$$$$$$ on your rifle did so in the quest for accuracy rather than braggin' rights.

For those of you wishing to gain more accuracy out of your rig let me offer to you the gunsmith below.

http://www.benchrest.com/hammonds/index.html

Weather you are looking for a simple tune up for your factory gun or are on a quest for the extreme in accuracy Clarence Hammonds will deliver the goods.

I could tellya a story about the time he was next to one of the biggest names in the hunting rifle industry at a large show.Clarences' targets were vastly superior to the other guys and he DID NOT like having his booth so close to his.BTW his work is less than half of the other guys.

His guns hold over 30 world records and that doesn't hurt either.

[quote=284LUVR
I hpoe those of you that spent an above average amount of $$$$$$$$ on your rifle did so in the quest for accuracy rather than braggin' rights. [/quote]


Increased performance that's what it's all about......Sometimes an El Cheapo wil perform with the higher end products,but not often and not consistnetly.........

I cannot believe I let myself read this post in its entirety.

Everyone has different wants and needs. Just let it go at that. Does this site have its share of equipment sluts? Yes, and then some. But is also has more than its share of good natured people that will lend a hand and help a man out.

Hell sometimes a mans taste and methods will make it to where his system and wants are entirely different than someone else's. Like me for instance. I'll probably shoot under 20 shots from my hunting rifle this year. Not because I don't shoot a lot, but because I do almost all of my practice with a 22. Plus I've been smitten with the 'need' to improve my wing shooting skills, so my 1100 already has more shots through it than anything else will get the rest of the year.

I think we should can this thread and quit acting like a lot of jealous old women. Some people would look at my equipment and think "This guy has chosen some really top notch stuff" other would look at it and think "This stuff really isn't the kind of equipment I would want to hunt with"

Know why it doesn't matter to me? Because I bought EXACTLY what I wanted, and did so with an eye for quality and the long run. Do that and you'll never worry about what the other guy thinks of your stuff. Good or bad.

Will

Penquin,Great post.What I shoot some people would consider to be on the less than cutting edge.On opening day tradition dictates that my beat up old Model 70 goes into the woods with me.After that it's a 7600 pump gun.

"Everyone else's stuff is CRAP!" 'bout sums up this whole thread.

I dont think that is totally true, I think everyone just has their opinions, but basically whatever works for you and your budget is what is best for you.

Actually, the original post was "my crap is crap but its all you "need"...if you pay more for better crap 'you're crazy'!"

Or as George Carlin once said "My crap is stuff but your stuff is crap?"

WIll

It's the piss, leg and rain thing that gets to me...

I've hunted with plenty of "cheapies" and expensive rigs. Both will get it done if you've done your homework. Why do some drive Ferrari's when a Ford Escort will get you there? My wife's one vehicle costs more than twice my work van and pick-up put together.........but I've a few toys in the safe......

All you young guys arguing over you have to have this or have to have that, or don't have to have this or that will look back when you are getting to the end of your hunting career and realize it doesn't matter a hill of beans what you used. You will remember the hunts long after what you hunted with.

my cheap rigs may not help me shoot better ,but when i can shoot with anything i've seen without paying double ,then why should

its not that i can't afford to buy anything i want ,i just don't see the need. dead is dead . i hunt deer and bear with ,bow,crossbow,muzzleloadr and rifle and have know problems due to equipment. i hunt for 90 days every year ,with no work from october to thru december. i've had my own contracting business for 17yrs so i take time when i want.

jwp475, nice groups,nice lopes, but nothing that any nice rig can't do.

Define nice rig..........

Not to flame you, but I don't think you've seen much, then. And please quantify what "i can shoot with anything i've seen without paying double" means....'cause I surely can't fathom that kind of shooting.

What I do know for sure though, is this:

The odds of picking up a random, off the shelf, pure stock, low end Rem., Win.,Savage or whatever for something around $500 and having it shoot sub 1" is at best a 25-75 proposition. 1" is my go-no-go standard for a big game rifle.

Does it happen, yes. But I've picked up way too many that have poor triggers, barrels way up against one side of the barrel channel, bad crowns and the biggest 2 unknowns of all, a straightened or still crooked barrel and piss poor bedding.

With some tuning, some can be made to shoot; others just can't and never do. The best crafted ammo in the world won't make 'em shoot good either.

So, that means you might have to buy 4 guns to get 1 that shoots an inch. Now you're out way more than the original $500.

With a better (read that more expensive)gun, many of the above issues are non-existent and you can be assured of that when you buy it.

Just depends what you want and are happy with. Ditto for scopes & binoculars as well. One doesn't have to go to extreme high end as there's lots of good stuff at the mid-range price point.

I own some stock guns and all of then originally cost less than your $1500 figure and they shoot well enough to satisfy me....all the stock ones that didn't are long gone however, and that's quite a few.

I also own various levels of custom or semi-custom guns and ALL of them performed from the get-go, without exception, including the ones I've built form scratch.

Shootin' 7-10 deer in Va proves nothing as far a rifle accuracy
goes as most shots are probably fairly short; the advantages of a more accurate rifle become more apparent at longer ranges. For heavy timber, I use a 45-70 but it won't work when I need to shoot 500 yards.

Seems some famous guy once said "Only accurate rifles are interesting".

MM

MM,

I thought of that too...and that may be it...I did once have a fella tell me: "there weren't no way no rifle could put 2 or 3 or 4 bullets in one hole at a hunnerd yards...least not without it being pure blind luck...a good rifle will keep 'em on a paper plate at a hunnerd yards".

Either that or he's Mr Magoo! In fact if he can't discern the difference in $100 optics vs $400 or $1200 optics...then he'd have to be Mr Magoo.

280,

I've got a feeling the horse is dead, at least from the neck up, and beating it any more won't do a lick of good.

As for the Magoo deal, yep, some can't see any farther than the end of their nose.

MM

Is this what you mean?

Yep, that was exctly what I meant !!!!!!!!

MM

srwshooter:

I think you make some very good points, about those who are trying to buy success. I have to agree that shooting skill is very likely more important than gear.

I can identify with what you�re saying. One of the reasons that I don�t frequent the Optics Forum is that anyone who mentions one of the cheaper scopes runs the risk of an insult right off the bat.

I�m sure we would all like to own an expensive rifle, for example, if it were all we wanted it to be. I�m happy for those who can afford the more expensive gear, and I don�t mind them sharing there enthusiasm, but so often these same people talk as if anything less is virtually worthless.

We can get along fine and dandy with less expensive gear. We will try to make intelligent choices no matter what the price level we deem to be appropriate. There is a measure of satisfaction, in good economics too.

Beginning shooters and hunters needn�t be told that their choices are bad ones, because no-one knows that. That�s just speculation, based mostly on here say, or on limited personal experience. But, that is exactly what happens, and that�s the reason I tend to agree with you.

IMO, It�s just as valid to claim that expensive gear is over priced, as it is to claim the cheaper stuff is junk.

Smitty of the North

Trends -

Entrance of heavy marketing & product competition = product differentiation & high dollar custom and niche products.

Exit of older guy's who used to set up the new hunters with handed down gear, and the common sense that goes along with it.

Higher way, higher hour workers with more money to spend than time to get out and hunt who can afford higher dollar stuff like 1000 yd bench rest optics.

Trophy hunting business with big dollar hunts make a rifle a least cost alternative.

Combine all of these and you have many reasons why a high dollar market niche has evolved.

Doesn't matter if it's a guy who invests in a few guns and ends up with high dollar stuff after 20 years of upgrading or mr. big bucks who just goes after the double rifle stuff.

Is this a good thing - probably not - I can and have missed an elk with a 1200 dollar rifle that I could have missed with a 600 dollar rifle. Does give me less excusses (LOL), and puts a grin on the face of the old men in the tent who know it doesn't really make that big of a difference.

At the end of the day if more gun makers would produce rifles that are very accurate like Tikka - well then I don't think so many people would go high dollar. Can't say that for glass, but I can say that for rifles.

So I agree ya don't need high dollar things to kill more elk or whitetails, but that won't stop anyone from buying it.

Spot

TFF.
I think you have just coined the latest "campfireisim" The "Magoo rifle"

I like it... "The Magoo Rifle and Glass Co." Serving the cheap hunter since 2007!

[quote=.280Rem
I like it... "The Magoo Rifle and Glass Co." Serving the cheap hunter since 2007! [/quote]

I think there are a couple of things at work here. First, those that frequent sites like this are more than casual about their endeavors. They want performance and are always tuning things. The casual person will likely be happy with one rifle and never visit this site. That probably fits most of our hunting population in the US.

Second is a person's ability to pay. My first new in box was a Rem 600 6mm back in 1963 for about $99.95. I think I earned just short of a buck an hour back then working a gas station The most recent buys were a Shiloh Sharps for about 3.5 grand and a Swed 6.5 x 55 for about $125. Now I'm into quality and that Swed action is indeed sweet. No add or store clerk ever talks me into a purchase though. I will spend months researching the vicissitudes of various cartridges and components before I lock things down. Before I enter the store or make an order, I know exactly what I will be leaving with. That being, over about 45 years, I have traded away only 2 of my purchases. One a custom 270 with headspace, and the second a handgun dad did not want around the house with a sub teen brother when I left for the service. Really though, hunting and firearms has never been about need or economics. I could probably eat a little better had I never taken up the hobby. Both give me pleasure though and that's reason enough.

SPOT: GREAT post; +5 on that. (Who ever gets a +5?).The truth is too amusing! TFF.

Classic.............

simple question to every one is general.. smart ass reply from someone individually.. why insult the man's question??? just because his philosophy differs from yours??? The guy who asked the question isn't the dink here...

Read the bolded above...it wasn't just a question...it was him calling others out on their choices...you call people out...you might get a terse response...like mine. Read the entire thread...the "dink" vote was cast, but we'll note your vote as well.

Hey 280, isnt it funny when "we" get called out on something we maybe use or like and then when we turn the tables on "them", they go crying about it to their mommies.

Seems to me that srwshooter started things off by suggesting that others with different points of view "are just plain crazy". Not the best way to start a discussion but a great way to start an argument.

As I stated in an earlier post, I've never heard anyone say "you need a 1500.00 gun, 1000.00 scope and 150.00 set of rings". But there is nothing wrong with spending that kind of money, either. Like others (most?) here, I question srwshooter's assumptions.

It seems to me that people who buy top-dollar equipment generally fall into two camps, the inexperienced and the experienced. We don't need to deal with the experienced as they will buy what they want and need based on that experience and the knowledge that comes with it.

The inexperienced are much more likely to be talked into a purchase they might not make if they had more experience. IMHO they are often not trying to "buy success" so much as they are trying to "avoid failure", which is a completely different thing.

Case in point - when I bought my first centerfire rifle back in 1982, a Ruger, I paid extra for a model with iron sights. The dealer convinced me that if the scope broke it wouldn't be a hunt-ending event. It turns out I have never used the iron sights in the field - the one time that I might have needed to do so two broken ribs pretty much ended the hunt anyway. Was the dealer wrong? Nope. Was I a shmuck for paying extra? I don't think so. Two and a half decades later I believe I made the right decision and would make it again under the same circumstances. These days I just take a backup rifle on my hunts.

Smitty - good post - I think it all boils down to a web of respect among all of us. We all have our own experiences, tastes, and expectations. When we can share these amongst ourselves without denigrating each others' we are at our best and can learn a lot from each other. Best to all, John

I'm a member and / or lurk on quite a few other sites. Some gun sites, some not. Without exception, the gun / hunting sites are the only ones that get into these types of pissing contests.
Just an observation and not directed at anyone.

Here is why I by into the "buy good stuff camp."

Back in the late 80's may father and I scrimped and saved for over 3 years to go on a guided backcountry elk hunt trip in Idaho. I upgraded to a Vari-II 3-9 on my 30-06 just before the hunt. I had some experience elk hunting (archery only though) and knew it could be rough so I encouraged my father to do the same as he had a 1960s vintage Redfield. Well after a flight into Moose Creek and a 9 hour horseback ride to camp we were ready to hunt. The first day it rained a lot and my father's scope fogged up and his rifle was done for the whole trip. We each spent around $5000 on the hunt and his was impacted by a cheap scope. He lost an opportunity to get a bull by using the unfamiliar "camp" rifle. I connected on the last day after tracking a bull and jumping him out of his bed. The weather on that trip was cold, rainy or snowy. You and your equipment were always wet. In order for it to survive in that environment, it had better be good quality. BTW, My Leupy is still working to this day.

A buddy of mine lost an opportunity this past year at a decent GA buck. His cheap Tascoleaked during a rain shower. He was unable to get off a shot at the buck walking past at 30yds.

Cheap is cheap. If it works for you, I'm truely happy for you. I haven't seen one incident of where someone posted a picture of their rifle and was put down for it. I have seen where guys have posted pics and some of us are envious of their Leica or Swarovski but I am happy for them too. Be happy with what you have and don't begrudge someone who has something different.

RH

I think himmelrr made a good post. I've hunted with the Tascos, Bushnells, and Weavers and have taken a good deal of deer with them. Right now I have 2 Leupold's and a Nikon on my hunting rigs. I think it depends on how much you hunt and where you hunt. I hunt in eastern NC for 4 months (bow and gun) and hunt a week in WV. I drive 550 miles to hunt there. If I take one rifle/scope combo, I expect it to work all dang week. Not to say that the other scopes have let me down, but as I got a bit older and could afford better optics, it was my first priority. It's just a small example. Now think about himmelrr's post and saving up for an elk hunt! My feeling is get the best that you can afford for what you do. If you hunt a week out of the year because of length of seasons, work, etc. then dropping two months mortgage into a hunting rig probably isn't a good idea. If you hunt a long season and/or travel out of state, then you won't hurt yourself getting the most optics, firearsms, etc. that your budget can allow. Just my personal feelings on what I've experienced.

Coyote Hunter,
Another plan would be to have a second scope mounted in a set of rings and sighted in previous to the hunt. Chances are with Ruger rings if the scope was already sighted in all you would have to do is switch scopes and maybe take a sighter or two prior to the next hunt. It would be a lot easier than having a second rifle along.
whelennut

I work in the data protection industry where NSPOF (No Single Point of Failure) is a standard system design criteria. A single rifle with a busted stock, broken safety, busted ejector, or a myriad of other problems can effectively end a hunt.

Your suggestion is a good one for someone that only has a single rifle, like I did back in '82 and for the next couple years, but I've never found taking two rifles to be an issue. A few years ago I was mighty glad to have two rifles when I pulled one out and discovered I had brought a mis-matched rifle/ammo combo. My second rifle and ammo matched up just fine.

Taking two rifles also allows me to hunt with both of them, which I often do.

As I read this thread the "Law of diminishing returns" comes to mind. Just because a person's gear costs three times as much doesn't mean it is three times better. However because a person occupies a high station and commands a big salary doesn't mean they appreciate the finer things either. I have a brother in law
who hunts with an old semiauto Winchester that he won by buying a raffle ticket for a dollar thirty some years ago. The scope is the cheapest I have ever seen. He has no other rifle. Even though he is the vice-president of a big, fourth generation construction company and makes good money. He just likes to hunt deer on his Dad's place on opening weekend and he is done until next year.
I don't care what he hunts with but he seems pretty jealous of what I show up with, although he could afford it if he was interested.
A song goes something like this, " My gal is red hot, your gal ain't doodley squat"
whelennut

Well you can pay the price to have a red hot girl(time, wining ,dining etc.)or ya can pay a hooker $20 bucks again choice is all yours just how ya wanna get to the final destination

Some guys are "collectors" and some guys are shooters. The guys with the most guns and the most expensive guns aren't necessarily shooting them. I guess maybe they just have great imaginations of being the big hunter, rather than actually shooting their "stuff." I have much respect for the guys that shoot their rifles on a regular basis, and know what they can do with them under real hunting conditions, rather than those who keep their "beauties" under lock and key, just to be able to say they own status stuff. But this is America land of the free, whether they be "talkers" or doers.

I got Ho's and Prom Queens...they all get mattress time...

I started my wife hunting back in 1981. I handload for her 788 Remington which started out with a Bushnell and now wears a Leupold 2-7X. (You might as well start out with a good scope because then you only have to buy one scope)
I have tried to upgrade her rifle but she won't stand for it?
We were at the range once, getting sighted in and when we were down at the target she had a nice 3 shot group about 1" give or take a little bit.
Two gentlemen we were sharing the range with were admiring her target while hiding theirs, (for good reason) they wanted to know what rifle she was shooting, etc.
One of them had a 300 Weatherby and the other a custom "Fancy Dan" 7mm Magnum. I remember the groups were at least 6" probably bigger. You should have heard the excuses! My wife was pretty pleased with herself after that day at the range. (Law of Diminishing Returns) She says she only needs one rifle.
For some reason she doesn't mind me having two gun safes?
whelennut

bearmgc, i have to agree ,there are talkers and doers in hunting and about everything else we do.
pretty is not my first choice in rifle. i want something that useable and a rifle that won't make me cry if i scratch it.

you guys talk about cheap scopes not being reliable ,sure you can get a bad one from any company, but haveing own probly 50-60 scopes in my life, i've only had 2-3 fail me and i've never had one fail while hunting . i've had a few that just wouldn't hold zero on the bench. i've seen every brand made sent back with problems,but it wasn't just the cheaper brands that failed.

Lottery advise still stands...

DVDgeorge, whoa! you REALLY love your rifles....?!

Yep,they are made to enjoy.Love the pretty ones just as much as the lesser ones.They all get shot and hunted...all have one thing in common they all shoot well!

Good man.