This?



or this?



Casemaster seems more versatile, but Sinclair concentricity guage seems like a higher quality tool. Your thoughts?

John

This

Sinclair.

Hondo,
Never used the RCBS Casemaster and I am sure it's a fine tool but the Sinclair on my loading bench works real well and is easy to use.

Dave

Both are good tools. The Sinclair is smoother and easier to use. The RCBS is a little less expensive and is more versatile, it will measure neck and wall thickness etc.. The Neco is more versatile yet but more difficult to setup and use. The Bersin is the best because it will also straighten bullets but it's the most expensive. The Holland tool will straighten larger caliber rounds but isn't as easy to use as the Bersin.

So if all you want to do is measure Concentricity buy the Sinclair. If you want a tool thats a little more versatile buy the RCBS..............................DJ

I`d go for the Sinclair. Love the quality.

What is the Accubond Society? Is there a secret handshake?

Since the forum is Reloading - Big Game Rifles, I'd say don't get either one. They're not needed for accuracy on the large critters.

I once purchased the RCBS unit. Took it out of the box, looked at it quizzicly, realized the error buying it, and put it away. Realized I didn't need another tool to drive me crazy.

If you are happy with average accuracy and never shoot past 200yds you might be right.
If you want to improve the accuracy of your loads it's a good idea to buy one and learn what it will teach you......................DJ

I have the RCBS casemaster and it's a decent tool to measure runout of case necks and loaded rounds. But for measuring neck wall thickness I found it far less than satisfactory. It has too much slop so it gives all kinds of false readings. I bought a Sinclair neck wall thickness gauge and have been very satisfied with that.

Don't own the Sinclair concentricity gauge so cannot speak from experience on it but since - 1) the RCBS tool in my experience is only a single use tool anyway and 2) the Sinclair stuff I have owned is very high quality - I would recommend that you get the Sinclair.

You will never be sorry buying the best quality you can.

I disagree with that.

I have rifles that qualify for big game, yet I enjoy shooting them at paper for fun. I derive a lot of satisfaction from seeing improvements in my handloading techniques and processes translating into better and more consistent groups.

Really??? You mean to tell me that a guy with a rifle hobby like yours (and mine for that matter) does NOT own a run-out gauge of any kind?

I find that hard to believe


While we're on the subject, I have the RCBS gauge. I used to own the Sinclair as well, which was leant to a friend and he disappeared with it. I was broke and needed another one, and bought the RCBS gauge. It works just as well. But like others have said, it's pretty much just a run-out gauge. All the rest of the features are crap.

There is a right and wrong way to use a run-out gauge. Especiall the V blocks on the RCBS gauge. If you've got rifles with sloppy chambers that pressure ring brass pretty good, you'll get hellacious readings on those cases if you set up the gauge as in "Example A"

Example A



Example B



In "Example B", the forward most V block is moved up to the case neck, allowing the back end of the case to ride the rearmost V block above the pressure ring (right hand edge of the block in this picture) This allows for the fact that your rifle may have a less than match spec chamber, and/or you partial full length resize cases. The case head doesn't always stay centered behind the rest of the case after its first firing. If you allow the V block to reference off the case head, the whole case can wobble, showing a lot more run-out than is actually present. If you think about it, when the round is chambered it references on the shoulder and the part of the case that has been formed somewhat to the chamber, so 'plan B' you're actually measuring run-out as the rifle sees it. In the real world, there's plenty of room on a .473 bolt face (more like .480") for a slightly out of round case head to find its own center without affecting accuracy.

In the real world, in all my sporters and tactical pattern rifles. Any TIR under .003" won't affect accuracy enough to worry about in any real world environment. Ammo selected that runs under .003 TIR, will produce much tighter groups than ammo that isn't. What do you do with ammo that runs over .003" TIR??? Shoot it offhand at an 8x8" steel plate at 200 yards. It'll still hit it if you do your job and I bet you could use the practice

Dan,

I tried your theory out and my RO was less as in ex. B..measuring as in ex A gave me .003-.004 RO..in ex B, I ran .001-.002 I guess you set your accuracy requirements depending where you measure them. I always measure as in A and consider anything <.003 as pretty good..<.002 as exceptional! If you measure as in B, notice that the case is tipped down and is bearing on the mouth of the case, and the dial indicator is closer to the bearing surface. In A, the distance looks about 2.5X longer, hence, minor deviations of concentricity would result in larger deviations of RO. So, If I were using your method, I would "reject" RO >.0015 in my case. In using method A, I have usually found RO in fired cases to be very concentric, and I can see the increase in RO as I proceed with expanding and seating...and yes, it does make me crazy sometimes. All in all, I think the RCBS tool is good for my use, and a ball micrometer is probably better for neck thickness...just what I think...

Art

Dan, the good news is the "handloading hobby" can be useful/enjoyed at any number of levels... I certainly have the intelligence and ability to take it to the extreme, measuring concentricity, truing primer pockets, case necks, blah, blah... Frankly, I don't enjoy handloading enough to bother. It's a particularly anal pursuit that, for me, isn't worth the trouble at that level.

I live by the 80/20 principle... I get the "80%" out of most pursuits and leave the final 20% unexplored because, in nearly any pursuit, the final 20% is the most difficult to attain... in most things, though not all, the "80%" is good enough for me.

I'm a couple steps above a LEE Loader and pre-measured charges, but not by much. That's my informed choice... I'd rather spend my time elsewhere.

Like most all of us, I would MUCH rather be shooting than reloading. However, I'll still check every few cartridges for runout just to make sure things is square.
It's also a good tool for setting up dies. I had crazy runout on the first .270 Win reloads. Asked a few questions here about sizing and soon got things down to <.005. One less variable I guess.

"Casemaster seems more versatile, but Sinclair concentricity guage seems like a higher quality tool. Your thoughts?"

I think you are correct. The value of versatility tends to get lost in the relitive lack of accuracy tho.

Example "B" above is really more of a measure of the case neck run out than the bullet, as Thumper found.

Of course bullet RO WILL follow the neck RO but the actual bullet to bore alignment will be much greater IF we measure near the tip than at the case mouth. Work to get the RO low, TIR of .002" or less, at the bullet tip and you will have some precision loading. (TIR is Total Indicated Runout, or twice the actual misalignment.)

OK folks, I appreciate the input. I will probably go with the Sinclair unit, then get a sinclair neck thickness guage at a later time. Figure first to sort loaded ammo, then when I get the case neck thickness guage, sort cases, but doubt I will ever turn case necks unless I start shooting benchrest.

Thanks,

John

John,

Very nice results can be had without neck turning. For my "best grade" stuff I sort and select brass for neck thickness variation <= .001" and run with that. For general fun stuff variation <= .0015" will do.

When you're sorting for .001" you'll find that domestic bulk brass gets just as expensive as Lapua when you divide the initial cost by the number of keepers.

mathman

No

Come on, I can learn to talk about that which I have no experience.

Excellent point - I mess around with it every now and then, but from the first my reaction to the information it provides has been, "OK, so now what?"

Knock yourself out........

The cricket choir stands in wait...

600 yds

This ought to be good.........


[img]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t169/TimClaunch/IMG_0154-2.jpg[/img][img]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t169/TimClaunch/IMG_0143-1.jpg[/img][img]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t169/TimClaunch/IMG_0153.jpg[/img]

There are many, many, many folks that know much, much more than I, but scottie, you ain`t on the list........

Cricket serenade........

Never seen pics of those animals before; are they mulies or whiteys??


Just knowing Scott he'll prolly pic post dead animals and oddball targets shot offhand; without using a concentricity tool or neck turning or using bushing dies and getting all NAMBLA about it...

Is someone churning butter in the backround? Thought I heard something....

Why don`t you two go have a schitz together and discuss it.

Its a tumbler you hear.

Switching from targets to animals.

I have stuff that works pretty good for that too.

I`m sure scottie is a good boy, prisons are full of good guys.

It is usually women, or children who need daddy to step in. That doesn`t say much for scottie.

crickets.........

Hondo;

How far do you, really, shoot at game? Punching paper might require every nth degree of whatever you can muster to get a group size half-a-silver-[bleep]-hair smaller than the other guy...... but shooting critters, unless they are REALLY damned small, or REALLY damned far away ain't that hard. 1/2 MOA will keep you in the vitals to 1600....... 1 MOA to 800+. If you aren't getting better than 1 MOA (and seeing some of your results, I KNOW you are) with handloads, some fancy meter ain't gonna get you there any faster than better loads will. If you're sub-MOA, how far away are you, really?

Ask Jamison what works to plunk pronghorn in the punkin', at 500+...... I don't reckon it'll be one of the two things you asked about, but whatever his answer, it works.

I won't and can't speak for Steelhead;

Please tell us why a concentricity gauge is needed to hunt big game or reload rounds and run them all through.

I am sure you can hold for the .005 diff in the field.

There are a plethora of guys here that can post little holes in paper; plenty more with pics of dead animals, many of which were taken without a Borden action, near, far and in between. Some of them even moving.

My gunsmith is a BR shooter, a good guy with records and less ego and know-it-all than you. He doesn't use his BR gun in the field, run it through his plethora of gadgets and sure as hell doesn't tell anyone else they need to do it either; 'course I am sure he isn't as smart as you.

Nope, I hear my tumbler; sounds like mashed potatoes hitting the wall at your place.....

Wow, aren`t you wanting to waste my time.

The question was about which brand.

Nothing about big game.

I honestly have better things to do tweetyI.


You might want to get back to something other than Schitz for breakfast.

Compelling

Not wanting to waste your time, just trying to get answers from a pro.

Here's a question for you, old wise one with medals; what have you shot with a TSX? Any Barnes bullet? They tell me you think they don't shoot good. I've also heard you think the AB is a much surer killer of deer. I want advice you give to your rich friends...

I'm sure they never went across a Sinclair gauge well enough to pass muster, so they were never fired. Gotta have zeroes B4 they go down any equipment of yours....

Just want your first-hand knowledge. Thwack....

Hmmm.....

24hourcampfire.com >> Campfire Forums >> Reloading >> Big Game Rifles

Nope, nothing about big game there at all.....

Damn, you can't MAKE this stuff up. Now she's showing MEDAL pictures, TFF. I was wondering when I'd get to show off one of mine.

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised to see my Medal show up again in the coming weeks, that should prove something, at least to Jerry's kids....

ok, you`re right, if a guy was going to use a Concentricity guage on a big game rifle then I`d buy the Sinclair.

Let me guess, those came in the box with the bullets. I now know why tey are so expensive.

Keep guessing, it's all you can do.

I sure like my answers better than yours.

scottie, I wish I could stay here and waste time with you, but I must go , but not to worry, I`ll check back in and make all the adjustments necessary.

Tim,

How do you check runout on NPGold slugs?

We just do this here: and guess some more The things you can accomplish when you don't know anything....

Lots of input to the discussion. Thanks.

Can you show a coin collection?

That's actually kinda funny.

I`m not the enemy as you guys portray me.....

I can share hard earned knowledge, with anyone.

I just ain`t hip on solids, but love Noslers.

I do have radar to Bullshit tho, and it goes off on many posts.

I can show you a coin collection if interested.

With high antimosity I say "sure".

Back to the original subject about concentricity guages.

To make an analogy with cars, there are some people who just want to turn the key and drive. Others are always tuning their cars adding an new exhaust, new tires or whatever. Some people just want to load up and shoot, others are going to tweak every variable that they can to try and get the most out of their guns.

Neither is right or wrong. People just have different levels of interest. If you don't have or want to spend a lot of reloading time maybe concentricity isn't something you'll want to pay a lot of attention to. If you are someone who enjoys the details of reloading a Concentricity guage CAN help you improve the quality of your loads.

So give a little thought about which type of reloader you are and spend accordingly.............................DJ

Very well said.....

I have gone way out of the way on hunting rifles to insure top accuracy.

It is a priority with me as many here know.

With high antimony, I say DJ, yessir.

A gauge is handy to check your decap rod, your chamber, whatever. If your stuff works, it works. Nothing wrong in striving for the Nth degree in your equipment; just don't spend all your time worrying about stuff that doesn't matter, Hondo.

To fiddle with stuff while much larger things are broken is folly.

No, Tim, you are not the enemy. I'm sure you are a grand fellow.

For the record, YOU were the one who posted the coins......

Well, those are what happened when I got my head screwd on to win our local 600 yd matches.

They mean a lot to me, as the competition is tough.

We shot today for the October match, and as luck would have it I won the match, and earned the small group coin for a 2.109" group at 600 yds.

I am celebrating and the beer is flowing and fixing to cook outside for the sweet wife, some deep fried catfish and hushpuppies. She just ran to the near beer store for reinforcments, and all looks grand.

Sounds like a good time Tim!

Thanks Sam, you`re a good person, let me just say,

Life is good..........

Vote...........REPUBLICAN.........to keep it that way!!!

I've own the Sinclair and it has been a wonderful and very helpful tool on my reloading bench for years.

It will only drive you nuts if you don't know how to respond to what it's telling you, but that's what forums like this are about.......

Nicely put.

I'm just one of those guys where often the pursuit isn't whether or not it's good enough, but rather, "how good can I make it?"

John

In that case, you just answered your own question; and either will probably get you closer to "there".

Damn right brother!

Thumper, You bring up a good point. In my first post I was trying to keep my explaination simple of the two methods for setting up the RCBS gauge, and I was aware of that. What I was getting at is that sometimes the run-out is greatly exagerated by cases that blow the back end of the case out (and this is exagerated more when you partial FL size,) and cause a lot of run-out that really isn't there. When I tip a case down steep in the gauge and place the front block towards the case mouth, I drop my allowable amount of TIR down to .002". Most of my chambers have been cut by gunsmiths or barrel makers and I usually set up the front block right behind the shoulder.

How I happened upon that was with one of my 308's. All my ammo was around .010" TIR, and just eyeballing it, you could tell it was the back end of the case causing it. I moved the front block up to the case mouth and the TIR went all the way down to zero on most loaded rounds. Sometimes, you have to be smarter than the gauge. That was primarily what I was getting at.

On a 308 length case, I would agree, you need to add a thou and a half to measured TIR when using the method in which the front gauge block is placed at the mouth of the case.

I have the Casemaster and it is fine