Guys, I'm a die hard 165 grain bullet fan. What powder would you most recommend for a 30'06. I've been using H414 for years, just because "it worked" but my case necks keep coming out filthy. I'm beginning to think the 414 burns dirtier than some other powders and would like to try something new and don't want to waste a lot of powder, searching for a new load. Thanks for all the feedback.

Any of the 4350's is my choice with the Hodgdon version leading the pack. The results that some guys have had with Ramshot Hunter looks real good too.

I've always used IMR-4350 or H4350 for the 165/180 gr. bullets in the 06'.

Another vote for H4350

I'd come out of the gate with H4350.

I'm going to steal a quote from someone who stole a quote, I believe from Jack O'Connor. To paraphrase, "...if your '06 doesn't shoot 165's with 4350, you need an exorcist, not a gunsmith." +1 vote for 4350 from me. 57.0gr of IMR4350 and a couple different 165's has shot well from my '06. I'm off to play with H4350 next.

IMR 4350 has always worked for me! In fact I use the same powder with the 165 in my .300 Win Mag! Awesome long range Mule deer killer!

IMR 4350 for me.

57 of IMR 4350 and a 165 has long time been my go to load in an 06. For both hunting and when working with a new gun to see how high an IQ it has.

Dober

One more vote for the IMR 4350 and the 165. With Dober's load of 57gr. its hard to find an '06 that it WOULDNT shoot well in...

Now all I gotta do is figure out how Dober knows what works in an '06....
Ingwe

I load for four different .30-06s now. Two winnies, one Rem, one Browning. All of them spit 165 gr. bullets down range at 2800-2900 fps when propelled by 57 gr. of IMR 4350, and they do it with sub-MOA accuracy as long as myself or my father is shooting. It was amusing to shoot the load for my brother-in-law's Browning when he got it, I shot a 5 shot, 3/4" group and he said "Great! Let me try!" He shot a 5 shot 2 1/2" group with the same load and bitched about the rifle not shooting the load well. I asked for it, sent 5 more rounds down into a 3/4" group. He's okay with it now, but it took him a while!

the optimal powder is the one that shoots the best out of your rifle could be either of the 4350s or W760............

Have to agree with IMR-4350 and H-4350 in the .30-06/165 or 180's . Right now, my Ruger #1 works verrry nice with 57.0gr H-4350& 180 Horn. or Partitions. However, I've been using Hunter in another '06[Ruger Mk2] with 165 Horn& Part. and that shoots very ,very good! Those three powders are all you need for your .30-06. Good luck. Rifletom

I've use IMR and Hodgdon 4350 with great results (different data).

For the first 25 years or so, I loaded with IMR4350 -- 57 gr for everyone but myself. For my rifle, it was 58.5 gr and the velocity was so close to 2900 that we'll just call it that. (2892) Accurate, killed well. But a guy buys other powders because . . . . . . well, there must be a reason. I now really like H414. Not noticing any inordinate amount of black soot.

Accuracy is phenominal. I'm guessing that RL19 would also work well, but I haven't tried it . . . . YET! Couldn't get IMR4064 to shoot up to my standards. H4895 shoots good with 150's. So does IMR3031. For the 180 grainers, I like IMR4350, H414, and my new favourite is H4831 -- a case full = bug holes.

Love the old gal. Just an old battle horse.

Ditto.

59.0 H4350 and most standard 165's is my choice...

Same here!

H4350 here as well with 165s.

well, I might be stepping out on a limb here but I'm getting the impression that 4350 (H or IMR) would be a good place to start.

Been thru a bunch of powders besides 414, 4895,4064,rl15,w748 and 760, 4350 and 4831, but 414 always comes out the best in accuracy and velocity combined in my #1a, and it also shows a definet preference for winchester brass.

Cautious, but safe bet..... grin

4350 for me just use a little more in my stire.

Never tried H-4350 cuz I got hooked on IMR-4350 early on, but I'm sure its great... particuarly now that they have the "extreme" line that isn't as temp sensative.

My favored 165 load utilizes RL-19, but those three would seem to me to be the ideals to start with: RL19, IMR- & H-4350s.

RL 19 gives me 2900 fps from a 165 gr SST without signs of pressure at all. With 61 gr in a 23.6" barrel it is over max so look up book starting numbers and work your way up.

57.5/IMR 4350, Fed 210Ms, 165 Nosler Partitions. Have shot quite a lot of game with this, including a couple elk. Great load.

30-06 and 165 grainers, well there are so many good powders, the best for velocity and accuracy are those that fill the case and yield 100% or more density. So I recommend:

RL22, RL19, H4350, IMR4350, IMR4831. I sure there are others that work, but I found those that yield top accuracy w/ high velocity also have 100% load density.

Note1: RL22 is a compressed load but has yielded the highest velocities w/165's that I tested (actually I started years ago with N205, then changed to RL22, almost the same stuff). Work up to 62-63 grains of RL22 from well below and see near 3,000 FPS in a 24" barreled 06. In a Ruger 1-B 30-06 with 26" barrel and N205, I recorded a 3047 FPS average w/165 Nosler Partition. No flies on the 30-06. This was an old Bob Hagel load recommendation. I also use a Lee factory crimp die and mild crimp when using compressed loads of powder, especially RL22. Also note, I used only new once fired Winchester or Federal Gold Metal 30-06 Brass for load development and testing.

The TOP compressed RL22 loads are 60k PSI loads. Were using 270 Winchester pressures as a guide and your brass life will suffer, and these are HIGHER than normally recommended 30-06 pressures which are held a bit low due to old Springfields and the like. Do NOT use in lever guns, pumps, autoloaders, or 50+ year old bolt guns, also rear locking lug Bolt rifles (some Steyr's). MODERN guns only, please....use extree caution. Inexperienced, hamhanded, or daredevil type reloaders can get into trouble w/ any case and compressed loads, be advised....

Note2: I have not gotten a Barnes X 165/168 to go anywhere near that fast without undo pressure signs, load is too compressed for the long lead free bullet and RL22, Use caution.....Try only H4350, IMR4350, and RL19 with the X Bullets. I have NOT tried the newer shorter MRX bullet....

Also good are: W760, IMR4320, IMR4064, RL15, N204.

I have not tried RL17 or BigGame in a 06 case. May or may not work well.

Bob

All of my 30-06 rifles love H4350 and 165gr bullets.

IMR 4350 here too. Last years loads were 56gr under a Speer PSP 165. in my Rem 7600. I have but havn't tried H4350...

Be safe
Patty

RL22 or WW760 have been the velocity kings for me when pushing 165s from the '06. Using compressed RL22, 2900-2950fps were possible out of some 22" bbls and other barrels would not push 165s past 2850fps. I don't even bother with RL22 anymore, its too inconsistent from lot to lot. Gave up on WW760 years ago due too it's temp sensitivity.

H4350 seems to have the best blend of decent velocities, temp insensitivity and lot to lot consistency. Have some Ramshot Hunter, but only tried it one '06 so far.

MtnHtr

I've used 57-58gr IMR 4350 for a while now and been very pleased with it. When I run out of IMR I plan on trying out H4350 next however, mostly because of Temp insensitivity.

I like 2 - H4350 and IMR-4064

165 w/ RL22, IMO puts the '06 near magnum class...especially with a 24" bbl or longer.

I have to vote IMR4350, but then I have never loaded any of the H4350 so don't know about it!

I use 57 grains of IMR 4350 powder. The young guys on my deer lease say IMR 4350 is an old mans powder.

I'll be the odd man out. Started with IMR4320 40 years ago because it meters better out of my powder measure. Never saw a reason to change or experiment.
If I was starting out today, 4350 would be the one to try first then let your rifle tell you what it likes.

Do you realize the OP started this thread 7-1/2 years ago?

Hanco often replies to people who haven't even logged onto the Campfire for years. Apparently he likes to stay busy.

RatherBHuntin: My Winchester pre-64 Model 70 (24" barrel) in 30/06 shoots Nosler 165 grain partitions so well with IMR 4895 that I have been using it for decades now.
Be sure to give this powder a try - I think it will work well for you.
Good luck.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Curses! Trolled again.

It is good to revive old threads like this, there has been lots of new powders brought out in the last 7.5 years suitable for the fore mentioned caliber and bullet.......

The fun part when someone drags up one of these old threads, is watching to see the different answers folks put up from their first time posting on the subject. LOL

wyoming260,

OK then, I'll bite--but bet very few other people will now pick IMR4451.

I've had superb luck with IMR4451 in any cartridge/bullet combination where handloaders often pick IMR4350 or H4350, and it works as least as well with 165-168 grain bullets as either 4350. Velocity and accuracy are very similar, and 4451 is also as cold-resistant as H4350. Plus, it contains a decoppering agent, which works.

Hanco, has a bad ankle. You Yanks need to think about being snowed in. Hasbeen

MD,
It will be a while before lots of folks use the newer powders in some of the older cartridges. I've played with 4451 and 4166 in the 257R and 270 but not the -06 yet. It's just easier to adhere to the "if it ain't broke" attitude so if the old tried and true powder works on the old tried and true cartridge, there is not a lot of motivation to try something new.

Yeah, there's no reason to change if it ain't broke. But I didn't try IMR4451 with 165's in the .30-06 just to experiment. I tried it because my supply of H4350 was running low, and it was just about impossible to find. Could get IMR4350 but had become addicted to the H version, due to short-cut powders and consistent performance in cold weather. It worked great, so I started switching to IMR4451, because it's short-cut and cold-resistant--and am glad I did.

Something has been going on with supplies of H4350 over the past few years, aside from the "shortage" created by generally increased demand for shooting supplies. For the past year I've been able to buy IMR4350 pretty easily, along with many other powders that were scarce for a while, including the Ramshot rifle line.

But H4350 has been scarce or non-existent in stores and on websites for several years. Just checked the 5 websites where I buy most of my regular-use powders. NONE had any H4350, but ALL had IMR4451, so am glad to have made the change--and am continuing to switch to IMR4451 in other cartridges where H4350 had long been my go-to powder, such as the .243 Winchester, .257 Roberts and 7x57 Mauser. So far 4451 has worked just as well, if not a little better, in every application.

Talking about giving up on or switching from H4350 is almost a blasphemous statement on this and many other forums....
But if it is not available????? That's what I meant about new powders, sometimes new is actually better, sometimes new is AVAILABLE!!!!
Think how many new powders in the "4350" burn rate are available now.
And the "Standard" is unobtainable........

I bought a pound of 4451 for the same reason, no H4350. It worked fine with 150s and 165s in the 30-06 but velocity is a little lower if you stick to Hodgdon's published load.

The surprise was how well it worked with 130s in my 270. The published max load of 56 gr gave me around 3100fps with 130 ballistic tips and averaged 3050 with 130 Hornady sp. Accuracy was at least as good and possibly a little better than the 60 grains of H4831sc that I have been using.

Bob

rshmelzle,

Different lots of 4451 have varied a little, probably due being a new powder. I obtained two different lots the first year, and one resulted in velocities about 50 fps faster than the other lot in loads around 3000 fps. The "faster" batch was much closer to Hodgdon's published data.

Since I only had a couple of pounds of the slower-velocity lot, and eight pounds of the faster one, I eventually mixed them to have a more consistent blend--which will probably happen with new lots as they have more batches to blend.

John,

I've looked at Hodgdon's data for the 4451 compared to what I'm using with H4350, but how did your actual charge weights & velocities compare with 4451 vs H4350?

Thanks.

MM

Good to know!

Seems like a really good powder. At the rate that I use it, an 8lb jug will keep me supplied with 270 & 30-06 ammo for the foreseeable future.

Bob

MontanaMan,

So far IMR4451 has been SLIGHTLY faster than my present batch of H4350. A good example is my 7x57 with 160-grain GameKings: Used to use 46.0 grains of H4350 for right around 2700 fps. Matched it in velocity and accuracy with 45.5 IMR4451. That half-grain has been typical in cartridges using charges of 45-60 grains of powder.

XMR 4350 is a smidge faster than the Hodgdon's or IMR powders of the same number. Pretty much "optimal"

Might look at the powder burn rate chart, and refer to your loading manual(s), if you own any...


Really ought to own several loading manuals just for this kind of "what's optimal" question.


If you're gonna be shooting cast boolits in your 06, you got Unique to consider as "optimal". Of course, it is optimal in every cast rifle load where looking for accuracy over velocity.

Seems like Varget and RL-15 are also pretty optimal for light loads in the .30-06. Haven't ever loaded an 06 under 180gr, but the 165gr is probably gonna do better with a little faster burn rate. Can also include IMR 4064 and 4895 in that mix.

Lots of new powders out there. Best advice for what's optimal is to refer to the Sierra Manual and go with their Accuracy Load for your bullet weight. If it is Accuracy you seek, use their bullets to isolate the variables.


The Lee #2 and latest Sierra books are excellent and compliment each other. I would go with the Accuracy Load as your starting point. Maybe look at the 168 matchking load as the one you want. Millions of those fired in an 06 for sure...

hogan,

Accurate 4350 is no longer called XMR, and the latest version (made in Canada) is considerably slower than IMR4350 and H4350. Or at least my most recent batch is, closer to H4831 than either of the other 4350's.

A couple of manuals other than Sierra's have been listing the most accurate powder for their bullets for a number of years now. Both Varget and RL-15 will work with 165's in the .30-06, but the Barnes manual lists IMR4064 as most accurate. But Nosler's latest manual still lists IMR4350 as most accurate, as it has for a long time.

John,

Thank you; that seems to correlate to Hodgdon's data for the '06 which indicates 4451 to be slightly faster than H4350 in that cartridge as well.

Great info given the lack of availability of H4350 right now although I still have a few pounds left.

MM

In my old Rem Ti Varget was the best with 165's. I would always star with H/IMR4350 though.

Yeah, rifles are individuals. I even owned a .270 Winchester for a while that didn't much care for H4831. But there are overall trends!

My vote is for 57 gr of H4350 with 165 Partitions.

As an aside I will be trying that new IMR 4451!

My vote is for 57 gr of H4350 with 165 Partitions.

I have a 30-06 custom that was originally intended for cast bullet work, so was barreled with a 1 in 12" Douglas. At the time I was shooting more cast than jacketed.

For a while I got off the cast thing and tried to work up a load with a 180 gr. bullets and never could get decent groups. I thought it might be the stock so after several tries at bedding the thing it still wouldn't shoot.

I went up to Deer park and got a stock from McMillan. Was lucky enough to pick up a proper stock for a Mauser action that had been a cancellation. No waiting. After bedding it in the new stock circumstances prevented me from even shooting the rifle for a couple of years and when I finally got around to it it still wouldn't group with 180 gr. bullets.

It sat in the safe for quite a few years after that until one day while having a conversation with a shooting buddy, he suggested trying 165 gr. bullets. I'd been using 165 gr. bullets for years in a .308 so a couple of years ago I loaded up a test series with some 165 gr. Accubonds I have with W760 and went to the range. Of the Crony the top load showed 2800+ FPS and tiny clusters, some as small as 1/2 inch.

I never tried to find full out max for the load but all I can say is two years ago a nice fat cow elk laid down and turned toes up after being hit with that AB bullet. Bullet hit just behind the short ribs and blew up the left lung. The elk moved about 30 feet. collapsed and expired.

I was thinking that bullet might be too light for elk but it did work that time. Near as we could tell it never exited but was not recovered. My thoughts are it was buried in the mess that was her left lung.

The was a sticky over on Accurate Reloading where some guy had done some pressure work with Re17 and 165 and 180 gr. bullets. He used a Pressure trace as I recall. I always meant to print it out if I got hold of some Re17 but by the time I did it had been removed. IIRC, he had some interesting results. Oh well. I'll probably try to figure it out on my own.
Paul B.

I guess if you play around with different powders and loads you will find many that will work great.Here's my list.Rifle-Remington Long Range 30-06 26" barrel.All these loads grouped under an inch in my rifle.Used Winchester and Remington cases.All were loaded with WLRM primers.Shot three deer this year with this load 58.5grs Accurate Arms 4350 - 2990fps.All I can say is Wow! It's a killer.

168gr Nosler BT
52.5grs Accurate Arms 4064 - 2890fps
56.0grs Ramshot Big Game - 2990fps
60.0grs Ramshot Hunter - 2969fps
58.5grs Accurate Arms 4350 - 2990fps
63.0grs Reloader-22 - 2936fps

165gr Nosler BT
58.5grs Accurate Arms 4350 - 3016fps

I don't think it will get the highest velocity, but for the best accuracy on 2 of my 06's H4895. The highest velocity can easily be seen in reloading manuals.

If I can get pictures, I'll go to the PO.