I know that those who are loading true wildcats or searching for extreme loads and pushing the envelope will not fit this question.

But...

Does anybody here load without a chrono? Long term reloading--like year after year deer loads in your .308, just watching for accuracy and pressure signs?

Anyone ever have problems doing this?

I do a little reloading. I don't go over max listed powder. I haven't had any problems but then, I'm a low volume shooter. I want to get a chrony but haven't yet.

I did for about 35 years but do have one now. I looked at several manuals and watched for signs of pressure. It worked just fine. I do, however, like knowing how fast my reloads are going. I am surprised at how slow some are.

Almost 30 years without a chrono although I did get one for Christmas last year. When developing loads, I simply picked the bullet I wanted, went with the book charges, and looked for the best accuracy.

Usually, I found that I was about 2 grains lower than max, case life is long, and no primer pocket problems. The deer and groundhogs don't seem to know or care what my velocity is.

I do have an area where I can shoot to 300 yds so I had actual drop figures, I didn't need to 'guestimate' using velocity and BC etc.

Dale

I only use the chrono at the range, I've never loaded with one.

Without? not since 1981. I will not be without one again. Bear

Why would anyone want to reload without a chrony? Velocity is such an important piece of the puzzle it's almost like testing your loads without using a target. I have had so many loads that had wide variances in velocity from the manual that it's almost the norm. In fact, I'm surprised when they do match. The chrony is about the only way most of us have to guage the pressure.

Been handloading for 30+ years, the first 15 without a Chrony, the last 15 with one. While I could get by without one I don't ever intend to work up loads again unless I use one - there is too much knowledge to be gained by using a chronograph.

When the woodchuck union forbid me to shoot them with anything under 3300FPS, I had to break down and buy one.

No, I don't have one. That may change when I start playing with the 220 Swift, but everything I reload is a meat & potato cartridge.

I haven't seen the need, otherwise. The ultimate proof for me is not the velocity, it's the cold barrel shot.

I don't do load development over a chrono accuracy first and after I try my deer/elk loads out to 300yds and if they are still accurate then I'll chrono maybe.

Some how from 1965 to 1985 I did without acouple years ago build a 280AI took me 2yrd before I chrono any loads. I've got real good load for my Lawton barrel 270WSM with 140gr TSX and R-17 and I may chrono that after hunting season.

Chrono a tool and I got some nice varmit rifles loads never been over a chrono. Well good luck

If a chronograph cost $1K I could understand it, but it's like a couple pounds of powder.

Never without!

A chrono is a v-good eye opener. One of the best investment a reloader can do along with a runout gauge.

Bought a Chrony 10 years ago, and have never used it. I just don't need the information the chronograph provides.
YMMV

Don

folks reloaded for a loooong time before Chrony came out with one cheap enough for the average joe to own. I reloaded for a lot of years without one. They are one of the nicer things to have however.

The chronograph just adds to the number of tools that need to be used consistently. Set up your chrony different than how you set it up before, and your readings can vary. Shoot over the chrony a little higher or lower than the shot before, and you might get a different reading. Weather conditions can change the readings. Even with that, I find that developing loads without one is like working blind, and I will not finalize a load without a complete workout over the chrony. Just keep in mind when you first run your favorite 270 Win load, or which ever pet load, over the chronograph for the first time and it only reads 2880fps, that is not telling you to go back to the bench and add 4 more grains of powder. The chronograph tells you what you have, not where you should strive to be.

"Does anybody here load without a chrono? Long term reloading--like year after year deer loads in your .308, just watching for accuracy and pressure signs?"

Modern reloading, as we know it today, began in the mid 20s. NONE of us common folk had chronographs until maybe the early 60s and precious few of us had one until the early 90s or so. That means a LOT of shooting and load developement was done, well, without any speed clock.

MANY of us still do it the old way. Knowing the actual speed really isn't very important for hunting or even serious competition ammo used inside 250 or so yards. There's very little practical difference in the trajectory or terminal energy if a round is anywhere near what it should be. Most reloads are at least nearly right!

So, while they are interesting it's a fact that a chronograph, as such, is of little real use for developing an excellant hunting or casual target load.

Chronographs are nice and I like to use my 18 year old model but if it crapped out tomorrow I doubt I'd bother to replace it. The itch to know speeds has been scratched and I don't need it. Never did really, but I just had to try one, right?

All the talk about actual velocities being lower than book velocities has me wondering why a person needs a chrony for load development if you stay below the max powder charge.

Sure makes hitting Crown Royal boxes easier at 700 yards knowing the velocity.

Much is lost on many.

Judging from the number of people who come to me and ask what that thing is - and then show no sign of recognition when I say "Chronograph," I'd have to say that the majority of shooters not only don't have one but haven't a clue what one is.

I've long said that not every reloader needs one. Some of the posts above demonstrate what kind of reloader doesn't: the guy who doesn't push maximums, finds and keeps one or two good loads for his rifle, doesn't shoot much and does load development little if at all.

The guy who demands more of his loads needs one. The accuracy nut, the guy who likes to load to maximum, the guy who loads unusual or wildcat cartridges, or just the guy who loves to experiment - all those people need one. It needn't be the best one made, as long as it is mostly reliable.

The guy who writes about load development, works with cartridges or components for which there is no tested data, or is simply never happy with anything but the very best needs not just a basic unit but a premium one.

And then there's the guy one half-notch above even THOSE far-gone fanatics. That last guy needs a pressure measuring unit in addition to a top-end chronograph.

I consistently use our range chrono....a good one. It is also always positioned in the same place, elevation, yada, yada (whether all such elements make a remarkable difference or not, sans elevation and temps).

I suspect that many people do not use a chrono, even in load development, without ill effects. Personally, I like to get the most out of my rifles and a chrono is the only way that I know how to get that while still staying relatively safe.

I have chrono'd several different loads from several different cartridges that have sat idle for several years and have come to the conclusion that I don't need to do that anymore (testing done at +/- the original loads inital chronoing temps).

Works for me..........

I remember being asked 'Is that a GPS?' about the chronograph I had setup at the range.

Best part of such scenarios...I very rarely have to wait for a spot at the chrono bench.

I've been handloading for nearly 30 years. I don't have a crony but I'd like to have one.

You can very easily load safely without a Chrony. Stay within book maxs and watch for pressure signs/case life. A Chrony is a great tool, but from a safety standpoint think they end up causing folks to overload trying to get that "expected" velocity (at best derived from some reasonably scientific rule of thumb, but just as often from gut feel) as much as stay within safe limits. The chrony does let you know what your velocity is and to me this is good information to have a long range to give an idea of such things as when bullets will stop expanding.

Lou

i dont have a chrony, but i do have access to one. i have only used it twice, and once was at the request of the owner.

I reloaded for 33 years without one, I have owned three chronographs in the last three years, don't know how I got along without one.

I know. I bought the powder.

My chrono quite possibly saved my a$$,eye,hand etc. I loaded 5 rounds of 300 win mag 10 Grains OVER max because I set my scales in the wrong notch! I discovered this after firing 2 rounds that were 200-400 fps (I don't remember the exact figure) faster than the book said it should be. I then checked my scales and discovered my mistake.
I am not perfect and I'm pretty sure nobody on this forum is either. Not my first mistake reloading either but without my $100 chrono I could have been maimed for life (or worse).
I NEVER develop new loads without my chrono.
A chrono is very cheap insurance.

Neil

Well, being new to reloading, only 30 plus years, I have never had a chrono,I reload by the book only. I wish to get one some day! I would love to know how fast and consistant my loads are! I have never had a rifle not shoot good enough to do what I wished, but I'm sure there is a reason someone built them to use!I just know the guys who write the reloading books are much smarter than I am! I'm wondering what kind of powder someone is burning to be able to buy a chrono with a couple pounds worth!! Ha!

I didn't use a chorno for about the first 6 or 7 years never had any problems with anything. I just worked up an accurate load and ran it. I guess what you don't know can't hurt you because once I got the chorno the velocities were horible in some of my loads so I had to start looking for some higher velocities.

Maybe you only take 100 yard shots so yeah under these circumstances you really cares. Now if you were out here and had to deal with relatively long shots to really long shot it is inperative!

That's really the issue with me. I don't know of anyone hunting here who has shot a Deer at more than 150 yards, and the average shot is like 75 yards. I haven't shot a Deer farther than 100 yards, ever..
I always say, that if I were to hunt out west, where long shots are the rule, I'd break out the brand new, 10 year old chrono, and do some velocity/drop work. Until then, all I'm interested in is group size. And, all of my rifles are zeroed at 100 yards.

Edit to add: Back in my younger days, no matter where I lived and hunted, I'd have the chrono working as I was really interested in all of the details of loads. But, today, I'm just not interested in the data.
As I said, YMMV.

You can get a Shooting Chrony for under $100. I only load to book but I notice that's a 'common' argument with some here.

'Look at me, I've been loading for 30 years and I reload by the book only' as if one is smarter and safer.

Big difference between 1 year of experience 30 times and 30 years of experience.

Oh, I saved all of these for the end !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the best thing about useing a chrono at the range is, that it makes other people think you know what your doing.

Three dissents Rocky.

One, people developed high velocity, highly accurate loads (within the limits of the barrels, bullets, sights, etc. of the time anyway) long before chronographs were priced within reach. And the old guys did a LOT of "experimenting" too. In fact, they laid the foundations of what we do today, not the chronographs.

Two, a "max" or accurate load is determined by the rifle, components and how they are assembled not the chronograph. Anyone doing the experiments moves forward on the results at the target, not from knowing within +/- 2 fps of what the velocity is.

Three, from his post ("Does anybody here load without a chrono? Long term reloading--like year after year deer loads in your .308, just watching for accuracy and pressure signs?"), it is a given that Mr. War Eagle does not match your profiles of people who "need" a chronograph. Without disparaging his needs at all, it is clear that HE does not need one. Instead, it would be a waste of his funds without adding a thing to his loads.

You have a LOT of valuable knowledge! So do many others of us. But, those of us who are obcessed by all this shootin' stuff often loose sight of the fact that many shooters have a life outside guns. Perhaps that's part of why it's sometimes difficult for us to respond to questions as they are asked rather than saying what applies to us?

I try very hard to provide guideance as it's needed, not by what applies to me.

Wars were won with swords also and lots of folks rode a horse to work, your point?

I've never owned or felt the need for a chrono either...just work up the load till they all land together, then go hunting.
I have at times run one of these loads over a chrono somebody had set up at the range, just to see how close they were to the book..In a variety of calibers, my results have been amazingly close to published figures...apparently unlike most folks...

Have had a number of customers approach with" My .300 Win is shooting .75 inch groups, but I'm only getting 3100fps out of it, what'll I do???"

Throw your chronograph away....

Ingwe

"Wars were won with swords also and lots of folks rode a horse to work, your point?"

Could you be a bit more clear? Especially as to how your question relates to Mr War Eagle's original question? Or does the OP matter?

Why not use technology? Guessing you also believe the reason that loads in today's manuals are different than those of old is because of lawyers.

If there is a better correlation of pressure then velocity for the backyard shooter I don't know what it is.

Lots of folks take pride in shooting Tasco scopes and using Lee dippers, more power to them.

Good answer!


I agree. A guy at work was bragging about his $39.99 blister packed scope and how it is as good as any Leupold. I told him I would break it quick. His reply was it would be fine as long as you didn't use it! Duh!

...Yep...sounds like me back in the mid 60's...Substitute Weaver for Tasco...14 years old & blew my first primer while shooting at a small forked horn. I thought I'd blown my eye out. Lee dippers ...I still have two tiny clouds floating around inside my right eye. I bought my first scale promptly after that.

If you remember the old story if you became lost sit down and start playing Solitare and someone would come along and tell you how to play. Well same way when you show at the range with a chronograph. You meet some highly entertaining people with some strange ideas. I have checked my chrony with several others and its ball park. Some people have all but wanted to fight when their book loads and estimates were short a few hundred FPS. one Engineer type claimed the SD was off with factory and reloads running less than 50

you can extroplate velocity by using JBM

zero at 100

shoot to 300, 500, 700 (or as far as you can get decent data) and record the elevation required to get there. record conditions (temp, ect)

pull up your bullet in JBM, input the conditions, and tweak the MV input until it matches the elevation you needed to get to those distances. then print your card

BUT, you gotta input accurate numbers and know if your scope is calibrated in IPHY, MOA, ect.

I just wanna hit the target............

I have only been reloading for a couple of years. Before I shot my 1st reload, I bought a chronograph. I just felt better being able to correlate the actual powder charge & MVs vs. what the reloading manual states. It is not uncommon for me for the 1 caliber I currently reload for to reach max velocity before reaching the max powder charge listed in a reloading manual. I never ever exceed the max book MVs. Perhaps I could do so safely but why bother. As one of the previous posters has stated, all of my shots have been within a relatively short distance (ie, within 125 yards). I am much more concerned with safety and knowing my MVs is comforting to me. Also, it's interesting to me to see the effect(if any)that colder weather has on my reloads (ie, I develop my reloads in the heat of summer). I have a Brother-in-Law, who just started to reload and right now he has no idea what his MVs are. He's going to use my chrono to see what he's getting. Like in my case, he is very curious (as he should be) as to what he is achieving. To me a chrono is another analytical tool available that will ensure I stay out of trouble. Since they are so affordable, why not? But to each his own.

Pretty much my point of view..I boke down and got a chrono a few months back, but haven't used it yet..

I tend not to stray over book loads and use their velocity figures for guidence as part of the process of selecting a powder. After that, my primary concern is accuracy out to say 300m.

After getting the chance to play out to 1000m, I'd like to do some more, and in that game I think a chrono is important, hence my purchase..

This may be only an example of one but I had a 22-250 VS that I used to take Pdog shooting in WY several times a year. And I had a very accurate load worked up for it. I also used it in factory matches and regularly won.
Needless to say, over the summer, throat erosion would be pretty severe, so each spring I would reset my COL and adjust my powder charge using my Chrony until I was back to my winning velocity.
When I finally sent it off to be rebarrelled, the bullet was seated into less than half of the neck of the case and my powder charge was out of the book BUT my velocity told me that I was still operating safely because my velocity never exceeded what had originally been a 85% load of max.

I reloaded for several years w/out a chrono and, as others have said, as long as I stayed within published parameters didn't run into any issues at all.

That having been said, if you reload long enough chances are you'll want need a chronograph!

Everybody reloaded without a chronograph when I started reloading, only the factories had such things..I started using a chronograph about 1980 I guess..Used it a lot over the years, but have not used it much lately, and see no reason to as about all I do these days is hunt...

You don't have to have a chronograph to be a reloader..You can work up a load very easily and safely without one just like we used to do it...

Here is what to look for and how its done:

1. begin one grain below book max and work up from one grain or a half grain at a time, whichever makes you warmer and cozier..

2. watch for flat primers, watch for ejector marks on your case, watch for that little black ring aroun your primer, be aware of a sticky bolt..anyone of these things is a pressure sign but no need to get anal over a flat primer, its just an indicator to be aware of, as it may be only a soft primer..but the other observations are critical and with any of them its time to cut back a grain or two.

3. One can also mic a new unfired case then shoot it then mic it again, record your reading of the case that fits your chamber...Now using your resized once fired case mic it then shoot it then mic it again..You don't want any expansion as a rule. However you can tolerated .005 and some say even .015..I usually go with 0 as that suits me fine and I dont' lose enough velocity to make one iota of diffence..Is this step necessary, no its not, but its an option for those that like to play.

4. The other option and a real good one for the new reloader is get several reloading manuals, start a grain or two under their max and work up to the manuals max and if all is well just stop right there.

NO, nobody has to have a chronograph, it's just another toy all us suedo experts must have to play with and its an interesting test of your ammo and you gain a lot of pretty worthless knowledge from it, unless you have ignored all the above signs and all the sudden your old 06 is pushing a 180 gr. bullet at 3000 FPS as opposed to say 2800 max! . The animal you shoot will die anyway and the accuracy you get is apparant by looking at the target with or without the chronograph.

That said if you play in the red lane, the danger zone, you probably need a chronograph but you'll probably blow up your gun anyway sooner or later as that is your personality!

Again Ray is living in the 40's. Shame they ran you away from AR.

I just got a chronograph, after about 5 years of reloading. The one thing it is doing for me is allowing me to get the most I can out of my rifle/load combination and helps me ensure my loads are safe.

Just the other day, in my 20 inch bbl 308, I worked up to 46 grains VARGET with a 165 grain bullent and up to 47 grains for a 150 grain bullet. I ran some factory remington PSP corelokts over the chrono and they averaged 2720 fps. I worked my 150 grain loads up to 47 grains VARGET (book max) and I am averaging 2700, with no signs of pressure at all, great accuracy, and about the best speed that I can get with a 150 grainer in my rifle.

Is chronograph absolutely necessary, no probably not, but I think it helps you get the most of out your rifle safely.

Some will survey a level line and put indexes on the targets. This way you know the point of aim is at the same horizontal incline.

Then measure the drop at respect ranges.

The real nerds pull out the vintage HP48 and start cranking it out.

Not saying being this nerdy is bad. I have 2 HP48's. I could have bought a chrony with the money I put into one.

I reloaded for decades without one. They are about the cheapest way available, however, for us to approximate what our pressures might be. There are no free rides when it comes to velocity. If you unit it 200 fps faster than published loads, there is a reason.

i don't have one. however i do not shoot competitively and do not exceed published load data, so if my groups are small enough i am good to go.

I reloaded for years before I had could justify the funds for one
I split the cost with a buddy and we both used it a lot.
I now use mine for load development and to see if how much summer temps. change my fall and winter loads,and visa/versa
Otherwise it stays at home and I shoot known loads.

Like Ingwe, I always have to smile when someone shoots their pet load over my chrony and then feels cheated if it doesn't meet the speed they had guestimated from a manual.

I rubbed my eyes in disbelief when I first shot my favorite IMR 4895 loads over the chrony. The loads were about 150-200 fps lower than I expected. I thought "this thing is off" but I shot some factory loads over it
and proved to myself that the chrono was reading correctly. 150 fps is not going to make much of a difference for any shots I will ever take but I still like to get the most I can out of the gun/load and still stay safe.

Good shooting

As above, we all reloaded for years without a chrono. Contemporary wisdom, aka "well, everybody knows..." sufficed.

"Everybody knows that those manuals are just an approximation, you can usually go at least a couple of grains over their max"
or
"Everybody knows that those manuals are lawyer proofed, you can safely go a couple of grains over their loads"
or
"Load until you get pressure signs like sticky bolt lift or a blown primer, then drop back a grain and call it good".

Those that were really gunny and read Bob Hagel and Ken Waters measured case head expansion.

We'd probably crap a brick if we knew what kind of pressures we were really running in our rifles back then.

Even when I got my first chrono* in the early 80's I figured my rifles had to be able to reach the speeds the manuals listed - out of their 24 and 26" test barrels! If my 22" .30-06 didn't hit 2900 fps with a 165 grain bullet with a max charge from the manual then I didn't see any problem adding powder until it did. I ain't gonna tell you how much IMR-4350 I was loading, but that '06 sure had one loud muzzle blast to it!



*Oehler Model 12 IIRC with an octal readout - every shot you had to twist the dial to four different positions and watch a little needle indicator to get a 4 digit number. You looked up that number in a table to get your actual velocity.

"Why not use technology? Guessing you also believe the reason that loads in today's manuals are different than those of old is because of lawyers."

In both sentences, you effectively put words in my mouth that I didn't say. That ain't honest nor is it sanitary.


"Lots of folks take pride in shooting Tasco scopes and using Lee dippers, more power to them."

Perhaps you know more about that than I, but no one I know feels that way even tho some are limited to that. I respect them for going forward while doing the best they can.

I try to answer any poster's questions honestly and as he wrote it for his needs. And putting down the choices of those who can't afford or cannot justify what I chose to use just isn't my thing. That smacks of an elitest attitude to me but if you take pride in doing so, here or on AR, more power to you.

Whole lot of venison gathered in each year by guys using Tasco scopes and Lee Loaders.
I have a 700 Classic in .300 Savage with a vintage K3 on it. For whatever reason, I have only reloaded for it using a Lee Loader. I shoot 150gr RN bullets and have killed several deer with it.

Well said Still.

Of course you can load without a chronograph. I did it for awhile,because you couldn't get them.A lot of guys shoot and hunt with factory ammo,too,without a clue of what velocities they're getting. I did like Ray said,and watched for pressure signs,kept things moderate,and shot a bunch.

Chronographs wreck a lot of rifles when velocities don't reach expectations.....last week my buddy with his 300 RUM got a furrowed brow when his rifle gave over 3300 with Tipped TBBC factory stuff,and his handloads with 180's "only" gave 3225...

I told him "So what?...Your loads are grouping sub MOA clear to 600 yards.And if you can't get it done with a 180 gr bullet at over 3200 fps,stay home and take up knitting...."

But chronographs give little tidbits of good info,like when they taught me that RL22 worked better in the 270,with more uniform velocity(and accuracy)if I used Fed 215's instead standard LR primers;and that some book loads, in some rifles,are actually too hot....

So, in the end,the more info you can get, the better off you are...I don't use one all the time,and I'm not a velocity "chaser",but they give enough solid info, that I can't really imagine being without one today.

Don't have one and won't have one. Loads I've developed for my rifles over 25 years are accurate to 300 yards (range length) and a long shot on game is 200 yards. Most under 100 yards.

I also fish out of a canoe from time to time. Something wrong with old school? Not knowing the exact velocity of reloads is not the most important thing you're never gonna know......

I think Bob in NH has a good peg on what it's all about. A Chrony isn't gonna change your life but it's gonna make it a bit better.

Stillbeamin: They give you information...that's what they are for..they help you correlate velocity and pressure(somewhat,and along with other signs)tell you when a load is too hot,or maybe that it needs to be increased.

LR shooters need them because unless their loads have low deviation,LR accuracy will suffer.They never helped kill an animal any deader,but they do tell you when you have a uniform and consistent load.

They can also tell factory load shooters why their hot magnums don't shoot as flat as they think they should...

Funniest thing I've seen was two guys leaving for Africa;they were shooting Browning Abolts in 7RM and asked if they could run their factory loads over my chronograph(Federal Premium-160's).When the loads from both rifles failed to get much over 2830 or so,they were crestfallen.They also noticed that my 270(that particular one)was doing about 2950 with a 150 Partition, they were even more deeply wounded.I'm sure they did just fine in Africa,but were very surprised that the factory stuff did not live up to advance billing.

In some ways you can certainly reload with out them;and you don't want to become a slave to the things,but in many ways,handloading without them is like driving a car with one eye closed

Yes.