This beauty needs to perform to it's potential since my 7mm Rem Mag will push a 140gr @ 3350 FPS with RL22.



It is a 26" 1-8 twist.

So far I am getting my best results with 64.5gr RL25, but that puts me in the 3100 FPS range. I used to get 3250 FPS easy with another 264 WM years ago with H870. But I don't have any H870 anymore When I ran out of H870 with that rifle I used 64gr RL25 @3090 FPS in that one with good accuracy.

Groups seem to open up @ 65gr RL25

I am 10 thousandths off the lands

So you 264 fans need to help me out. I am especially interested to see if anyone is using Retumbo or US869 with favorable results.

i can push 142 SMKs to 3200 fps using 64.5 grains of IMR 7828 in my 28" Krieger. work up to this one though. i run the same load in my 26" Sendero, but havent shot it over a chronograph.

I understand that the new Speer manual lists US869 with a 140gr. If someone with that manual could post that data I appreciate it.

Also if there is Retumbo data for the same grain bullet.

Wookie316,

I have shot Retumbo with 130 Scirocco bullets. I am loading 67 grains for 3225 fps. I was thinking that 3250 should be possible but the 67 grain load shot so well that I never pushed it any harder. Barnes lists 67.5 as a max for their 130 TSX. Hodgdon lists 67.5 as a max with a 129 Hornady and 63.5 as max with a 140 Nos Par.

You might look at Hodgdon's web sight for data.

As for US869 I tried it with 130 grain bullets and it did not work well I came to the conclusion that it was to slow???????? with 140s it may work out for you?????


8mmwapiti

You say 3090 with RL25.

Have you ever clocked a three shot string, or compared velocities between winter and summer temps?

I thought RL 25 would be a godsend in the 264, but such was not the case in my 26 inch Winchester.

RL25 in the 264 could have been the reason "spikey" was included in the reloader's dictionary. It proved to be VERY sensitive to barrel temperature.

As I approached a maximum load with 140 gr bullets and RL25, shot #2 would jump 100 fps to 150 fps from #1 and #3 would run out another 100 fps faster than #2. A 140 gr load with RL 25 worked up to 3100 fps in January would blow primers in July.

I hear good things about IMR 7828, but have never tried it.

I really like H1000 with 140 gr bullets. It will reliably reach 3100 fps with excellent accuracy.

Magnum looked to be promising in my initial trials. But the barrel puked on my rifle before much was done in way of accuracy testing with Magnum.

I've used a little bit of everything out there, except N170 so far. I've used Magnum, US869, Retumbo, H1000, 7828, H4831, MRP2, RL22, RL25, H50BMG, Win 780, MagPro, and some faster stuff with lighter bullets. I can safely get over 3150 fps (27.5" barrel) with almost everything, but 7828, US869 and Win 780 and Retumbo get the highest velocities. For accuracy and velocity, I like 7828 SSC with 140s, but 780 is great too. 7828 and 780 will both get me over 3200. I can't get Magnum to produce the velocities I expected with being way over pressure.
I can only safely use 75 grains of US869, 64.5 gr of 70 and 63 grains of 7828.

I have an old book that lists 3375 for a 125 grain bullet and h570 with a 24 inch barrel. With a 26 inch barrel and a 130 grain you could probably get 3300? Charge weight for a 125 with h570 is 57 for maxx and it does say start 4 grains lower. I'd run a search and see if h-570 is still produced.That being said this guy leans on the gas pretty hard. It lists 56 grains of powder with a 115 grain bullet in 25-06 and my gun won't take more than 55.

Got some Retumbo to try, US869 will have to wait as I can't get my hands on any local I have some IMR7828 also, but I want to see where Retumbo gets me.

I have to wait until Friday to get out again

68 grns of Retumbo with a 140 Berger VLD work great for my 264,28"Rock barrel.
RS

What type of speed were you seeing?

Wookie

Speer #14 Data from a 24" Krieger WW case, CCI 250

140 Hot Cor

US869 Start 72.0@2895 Max 76.0@3042
Retumbo Start 57.0@2798 Max 61.0@2946

Let me know what else you need. I find it interesting that they chose a 24" tube. Maybe so guys with a 24 will stop there and not chase the velocities shown for a 26?

They also list data with a few powders for 140 TBBC, but warn not to use it with any other component.

AA Magpro has been a consistent performer for me with 120 TSXs and TTSXs....

Edited to add - use common sense. I copied the data from the manual and checked it twice, but use it at your own risk.

I don't know why, but the Speer #14 lists velocities way shy of what I get. Oh, and I can't load my rounds to their max charge. I'd be willing to be if you loaded 76 grains of US869 you'll be pushing 3150-3200

Does the Speer Manual give a twist rate?

It does not list it. I think the standard Kreiger .264 twist is 1:9, which is also what my rifle has.

So mine being a 1-8 twist & 26" long I should be a bit faster.

The length will help the twist won't. But yes, I would be shocked if you matched that max load of US869 and didn't exceed the velocity listed. In my gun, 75 grains puts me right near 3200.

Krieger lists the 6.5mm in 8,8.5 & 9 twist. Why would twist not affect speed & only stabilization of heavier bullets? I've always assumed a slight increase in twist would also have a slight increase in velocity. Please explain this for me. Thanks.

Why on earth 100 fps makes ANY diff at ANY reasonable distance is beyond me.

Ive got a ,264 WM in a blueprinted Model 70 action, 26" Pac Nor Super Match HS stock fully glass bedded professionally, not just the typical gunwriter "Hanloader/Rifle Shooter" recoil lug glass bedding which is a joke, and cant safely get a 140 Berger much over 3,150 with anything unless its slower than RL25.

Face it, like I did, you can easily get 3,100 plus a little from a 130 out of a .270, there is a reason why the .264 died, though sniffffff I still love the sucker.

btw that first pic of your rifle mmm mmmmm looks like an awesome gun

Increasing the rate of twist will increase pressure because you are exerting more force on the bullet, a sideways force in this case. It is more difficult to get a fast twist barrel to shoot as fast as a slow twist barrel. You are exerting x amount of energy to move the bullet, to exert twist, you are diverting forward energy into a sideways force. You would have to increase force in order to move the bullet at the same speed with a faster twist. A way around this is to reduce friction by going to fewer grooves.
And the reason I don't own a .270 is that you can get 3,300 with a 130 grain in a .264 with a superior BC and SD over a .270. And a .270 won't launch a 140 at the speed that a .264 can. It just doesn't have the powder capacity. Same thing when you go smaller. I get my 100 grain ballistic tips to 3725, in the .270 I load for (not mine) 100 grain Hornadys will go 3330. It's not equal, it's a 22 inch barrel, but still, there's no way a .270 will launch a same weight or SD bullet at the same velocity as a .264. It just doesn't have the powder capacity.

Yeah I know, I know, can't argue with you.

64.5gr RL25 gets me an average of 3110 FPS with good accuracy for the short period of time I have had the rifle.

Truthfully if that if where it ends up performing the best I will be fine with it

But you know the old saying, new toys mean you have to play a bit. A friend lent me some Retumbo to try, & I can get some US869 in 3 weeks at a local gun show, so we'll see if this build will go over 3200 FPS?

After I ran out of H870 which would drive a 140gr very accurately out of my last 264 WM @ 3240 FPS. It was a Shilen 1-8 (I believe?) 25.5" barrel. RL25 was my goto @ 64gr & 3090 FPS from a 140gr.

I'm like you, there are other more rounded calibers out there, but you need an excuse to have another one

i've had good luck with W860. Just got a few 8#ers of W872 that I will try loading under a 140AB when I get some. Don't have the data in front of me but 3150 was doable with the 860. The 872 is slower and a case full might do the trick in my 26" tube.

JtP

I played around with several powders in the 264 before I tried IMR 7828. 7828 is all I use now. 65g with a 140 for 3220 fps and 68g with a 120 for over 3400 fps. I've shot one inch groups with the 140 load at 300 yards and cloverleafed them at 100 yards.

Bb

The more powder you cram in that sucker the faster you will burn through the barrel, perhaps that's for the best.

I built my .264 WM a few years ago because I just COULDNT believe that 3,100 was about the max you could get with a 140 and I had to find out for myself, especiall when the .270 in a much smaller case essentially equalled it.

The cartridge might still retain usefulness as a very long range round, with more capacity than the 6.5-284 but unless you are shooting at really extreme ranges and like to melt barrels why bother.

Fwiw, in my opinion the .264 when loaded sanely isnt the barrel melter it has the rep of being, mine has about a thousand pretty much full house loads through it and it still sends 5 Berger VLDs into about .6 MOA, which is good.

My smith told me the throat is getting baked but duuuhhh I figured it anyway.

Think I will turn it back into a .300 WM this fall when hunting season is over. That was its first iteration and it shot lights out.

7828 is faster than RL 25, fewer grooves does NOT reduce friction necessarily since the lands are wider. It does tend to increase barrel life.

My .264 is a three groove, so is my .260 Rem.

For all practical purposes the .270 [I dont own one] is superior to the .264 WM, it delivers roughly the same velocity, uses less powder, kicks far less and kill things just as dead.

If you are into super long rang comp then the 6.5 x 284 is the way to go since the platforms you fire them in have really been optimized for the round for a very long time, just like the 6PPC.

I had my fling with the .264, great round though its detriments outpace its plusses imho.

I dunno maybe I aint as adventurous as I think I once was.

If you really want to kick some long range ass get a .416 Barrett...not THATS a manly cartridge!!!

Hope none of you feel Im being harsh or anything, thats not my intent in the least, just stating my opinion which is worth exaclty what Im charging.

:-)

264 Is defiantly for the cult followers which I am a part of

Here is what I use to reach out & touch something.

338 Gaillard/8.6x72mm SDM. Mine is a 26 inch Magnum Contour Ted Gaillard barrel on an AIII Sako action in a McMillan Hunter stock topped off with a 4.5x14x40mm 30mm LR Leupold scope with a B&C reticule. The scope is mounted with Talley rings.

My pet load for mine is as follows:

8mm Rem Mag case or 416 Rem Mag case that has been fire formed!
215F match primer
250gr HPBT Sierra
91gr RL25
3075-3100 FPS











The target is @ 200 yards. There is 4 shots in the cluster, and the one flier which I think was me. The 3 shells shown are 1 before fire forming, 1 fire formed case and 1 loaded round.



[img]http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss108/jhowdle/_JAY3306.jpg[/img]

Here it is sitting in the wood.


[img]http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss108/jhowdle/_JAY4005.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss108/jhowdle/_JAY3998.jpg[/img]

Range day

[img]http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss108/jhowdle/_JAY3718.jpg[/img]

The top left target was some 416 Rem Mag brass I was fireforming with 225 Hornady Interlocks. 85gr IMR 7828 & CCI 250 primers. 2967 FPS (Low), 2995 FPS (High). I also notice that that target should have been rotated 90 degrees CCW as that is how it was at the range.

The top right target was the last 3 rounds left from my 1st 338 Gaillard that I had. They were loaded with 250 Sierra HPBT, 340 Fire Formed Norma cases 89.5gr RL25 and CCI 250 primers.
2887FPS (Low), 2959FPS (High).

The lower left target is a 5 shot group of Barnes 225gr XXX. These were Fire Formed 8mm Rem Mag cases with 86gr IMR 7828 and CCI 250 primers. 3054 (Low), 3077 (High).

The lower right target was an experiment. 200gr Nosler Ballistic tips with Fire Formed 8mm Rem Mag cases with 88gr RL22 and CCI 250 primers. Nosler does not make a ballistic tip in 200gr anymore, only the Accubond. I figured I'd try these before I used my Accubonds. I must say I was impressed!
3249FPS (Low), 3271FPS (High).

All in all I'd say it was a productive day!

Well I am going in the wrong direction I have gone to worse not to better. My rifle does not like Retumbo at all. Started at 64gr & worked up to 66gr. Definite pressure signs at 66gr. 64gr was the most accurate, but is was only a 1 1/2 group with speed just under 3100 FPS. 66gr groups were in the 4" range I did like the speed there (3180 FPS), but with pressure signs & 4" groups that's not going to work.

The barrel seems to be very dirty this time with Retumbo powder. The RL25 was much cleaner. The first 2 patches were black!

I can get some US869 on the 18th of this month, but I am not sure if that will help?

On a + side the 7mm I built for Dad shot a 1/2 inch group with 67gr RL22 @3250 FPS. So that rifle is ready to go. Maybe I'll give him the 264 & keep the 7mm for myself (LOL)!!!

Have you considered 125 or 130gr bullets? 125 Partitions or 130gr Accubonds are pretty easy to push to 3300fps. About as flat as 140's and will pretty much go end to end thru a deer, if needed. Slightly less recoil, too.

I tried some 130gr Scirocco's. My Chrony was acting up when I tried them & didn't get a FPS reading. So far not much in the accuracy department either

Question for 6.5mm 264 shooters. Right now I am @ 3.440 COL with a 130/140gr Accubond & could go all the way out to 3.600 in the mag box & still feed properly. Being the 6.5mm is such a long bullet, would I be at an advantage having the barrel throated longer to seat the bullet out farther. These are the bullets I plan to shoot, & I hope to use US869 powder when I get my hands on some. I have to make a trip to my smith next week & he say he has time to throat the barrel. I am wondering if it would be $ well spent.



Thanks.

I wouldn't throat it to seat that far out, since you're likely going to want to chase the lands later.

If you're gonna re-throat it, you might as well have him re-crown too.

Tried Magnum or Magpro yet?

Wookie,

One of the oldest semi-myths in the handloading world is that seating a bullet further out will greatly increase the velocity potential.

The truth is that any gain in powder capacity results in an increase of only 1/4 that amount in velocity AT THE SAME PRESSURE.

The .264 case holds about 80 grains of water with a typical lead-cored 140 seated to 3.44 OAL. (This may vary slightly with the bullet and case, but is close enough for our purposes.) This means it holds .317 cubic inch of water.

Seeat a 140 .16" further out and the gain is .0088 cubic inches, an increase of 2.75% in case capacity. Divide this by 4 and the end result is a gain of less than 1% in extra velocity. With a load that gets 3100 fps this comes to 22 fps. This is next to nothing, in fact it's less than the variation found in individual rounds when chronographing accurate ammunition.

The only time longer bullets start to really matter is with fat bullets in cases with relatively small powder capacity, such as the .358 Winchester or .458 Winchester Magnum. Even then, however, the velocity gained by seating bullets significantly further out is rarely over 100 fps. The .264 uses relatively skinny bullets in a big case, so the amount gained is trivial, especially when you're only seating the bullets out an extra .16".

In my own experiments with the .264 (including an original Model 70 Winchester Westerner) I could get 3150-3200 fps from 140's in a 26" barrel, with several slower powders, including Retumbo, Magpro and Ramshot Magnum. In the Westerner, Magnum got the best accuracy, but one thing I have found with the .264 is that the "best" powder for an individual rifle varies more with it than most cartridges, as do maximum safe velocities. It is just kind of a touchy cartridge, because of the small-diameter, heavy bullet and big case.

Try Ramshot Magnum

I did this with one of my 264's and I would NOT do it again.
Mainly for the reasons that MD stated.

I thought I could get more 50 BMG powder and US869 in the case and gain speed. It didn't work, there was no gain.

Accuracy also suffered, why? I don't know.
I've found that the factory seating of the bullet which seemed short to me worked the best in the accuracy dept.

The powders MD listed are your best including 7828 SC.

US869 is way to slow for the 264.

I loved RL25 and it gave me the best speed but experienced spikes on several occasions with it.

Here's a pic of the bullets seated out. The bullets were seated
with the bullet base not lower than the neck and where it meets the shoulder.

I thought it may be advantageous to utilizes the full length of the magazine box to increase powder capacity. I wasn't really thinking about a speed increase. So far RL25 has been the most consistent load, but after 95 rounds I still barely make a 3 shot MOA with 130 or 140. I am surprised many are saying US869 is too slow. H870 worked very well & I understand they are very close to the same burn rate.

Anyone try N170 or Magpro with a 140gr bullet in the 264?

Speer #14 lists the 140 with Ramshot Magnum, 60.0 to start, 64.0 as max @ 2957.

They also list US869, 72.0 to start, 76.0 as max @ 3042.

Speer #14 testing was done in a 24" tube.

Have yet to try any US 869, but it seems to hold promise with the 140s.

I found a pound of H870. Where should I start at with 140gr accubonds?

I was able to get a pound of H870 for testing. Things are looking up.
Had to go to the gunsmith to have a trigger issue resolved which turned out to be a weak return spring. I also had him put a recessed crown on it & throat it 45 thousandths longer. Now the bullet seats much nicer. I am at a COL of 3.495 with a 140gr Accubond.

I loaded new Win brass with 215F primers. I started at 73gr H870 & went up to 75gr H870 with the 140gr Accubonds.

I only loaded the 130gr Accubonds at 75gr H870

I also tried some 130gr Accubonds with 62gr IMR7828. Speed was OK, groups sucked & signs of pressure were showing.

The 140gr @ 73gr were kind of all over the page.

The 140gr @ 74gr did the vertical string thing This made no sense what soever. The one is a definite pull, but the other 4 got higher every shot? Weird? Speed averaged 3179 FPS. This was also shot before the other groups. Any ideas on that group?

The 130gr @ 75gr grouped very well. There is 3 shots in that cluster at the top This group got me excited. Average speed was 3254. High 3265 Low 3248.

The last group was the 140gr @ 75gr. The one is a definite pull. the average speed was 3206. High 3216 Low 3197.

Looking like 75gr is the magic #. I'll play with the seating depth a bit. I am 12 thousandths off the lands currently.

Being H870 is discontinued I am hoping I can duplicate these groups with US869 when I get some this weekend.

The frustration is now starting to lift. I am now seeing the FPS & grouping I was looking for. A 264 with the right combo can shine.

Well I got back from the Gun Show with a fresh pound of US869 to try in the 264. First off, I have no photos to post as it didn't really knock my socks off & there is nothing new to see

Loaded 140gr Accubonds starting at 75gr up to 78gr & 5 rounds of 130gr Accubonds at 77gr.

Bottom line is speed was slow & accuracy was average. FPS spreads were decent though. Here is how it broke down

140gr Accubonds:
75gr only shot 1 @ 2984 FPS
76gr FPS averaged 3047 FPS Low 3040 High 3053. 3 shots with 2 touching (almost on top each other) grouped 3/4" & 2 other shots were touching, but about 2" from the group? Not sure if it was me or not?
77gr only got 2 shots to read. 1 @ 3099 & the other @ 3081. Shot a nice little 3/4" triangle, but had one shot about 1" higher & one about 2" to the right? Again not sure if it was me, it was windy today & busy at the range.
78gr is TOO much in my rifle. First one was a tight extraction & read 3140 FPS & the second was a VERY tight extraction & did not register on the Chrony. I brought the rest home to be pulled.

130gr Accubonds
FPS averaged 3106 FPS. Low 3072 High 3124 FPS. No accuracy at all. 5 shots in a 2" group.

I have read a few posts claiming US869 to be TOO slow for the 264. I will add my name to that list. If 3050 FPS was my goal, I can reach that with a lot less RL22 & the same accuracy.

I had high hopes for US869, but it just didn't make the mark. Oh Why Oh Why did they discontinue H870

It is looking like once my H870 is gone (which won't be long) I'll have to tweak my RL25 load as it is doing quite nice in that 3100 FPS range.

Just thought I'd post this info for those 264 shooters since there isn't much data with new powders & the 264

Are you just shooting at 100 yds?? My 264 shoots 1" at 100 yds . It also shoots 1" at 200 yds and at 300 yds. At 400 it goes to 1.375".
I can't explain it other than it is the shooter's fault and not the gun's.
If RL-25 shoots 1MOA at 100 yds go out further and see how it does. I use WC-860 with a Rem 140 Core-Lokt. I never chronoed mine but I am expecting it to be fast. It has a 29.5" Lilja barrel and is throated to seat the bullet out to the second cannelure.

A 264 is too damm hot for 5-shot groups,you are simply burning too much fuel and sending the gas up too small a pipe.My hunch,most throat erosion comes not with the first shot,rather the later ones. Three shot shot groups should give you a good picture.And the extra heat will show up bedding issues as well.That I'm sure about.

You are doing much better than I did with my first 264 barrel.2950f/s was over pressure and the barrel walked,with a good powder I was able to put the targets on top of each other and the holes lined up.

Try Ramshot Magnum, it works well for me when using the 120 gr ttsx, groups are around an inch.