ok guys whats the main difference besides velocity of these two catridges
i am goin to buy one or the other i like the remington model 7 xcr in 300 wsm and i love the tikka in either
or do i buy a used model 70 for the moeny and spend more on the trip or the glass to go on it
im not going to be able to go elk hunting for a couple years and prob wont get to go very often
i have a 25-06 and that will shoot anything i want here in illinois
thanks

Trajectory and velocity along with a short action.

I bought a couple 300 shorties several years ago(300WSM and 300SAUM) and ended up selling the WSM. It had a good bit of recoil like a LW 300WM, didn't give quite the MV of the 300WMs I own, and just really didn't fill a need. I just grab my 300WMs if I want that performance or my 30-06....

I only kept the SAUM because it shoots so well(Sendero SF sub 1/2 MOA), but I've never taken an animal with it. I take it to the range now and then to punch paper, but when I want 300 Mag performance, I grab one of the winnies.

If you don't intend to shoot past 300, the 30-06 will fill your needs. If you want 30cal mag performance it's hard to beat the famous 300 Win Mag.

Some will argue SA vs LA, I have a couple safes full of rifles and personally never felt a difference in either under any circumstances.

Good Luck

loder

I would go for a stainless tikka 30-06 you will not regret it. 30-06 will handle anything you need to do.165 gr partions and accubonds are excellent out of the good ol 30-06.You can run them close to 3000 fps.

i'd roll with the 06'. the only thing i like short and fat are my women. but thats just me.

ROSIE ODONNEL??????? GACK!!!

Now I need a barin wash to get that out of my head.

Fog
Right now, Phil Shoemaker who posts here as 458Win has a post saying that this year he used a 30/06 to back up the hunters he was guiding for Alaskan brown bears-and he didn't get et, depite having to stop at least one revengeful bear. Also, he posts some penetration tests of the 30/06 with various bullets.
Also, Mule Deer has a post about the comments of an outfitter that he talked to that was not enchanted with the customers that arrived toting 300 Magnums.
Cummilatively, in those two posts there is probably well over 100 years of intense hunting experience pointing to the concept that the 30/06 is not only sufficient for animals up to brown bear, but a BETTER choice for the average hunter.
Buy a good used 30/06, put a good rugged 4X or 2 to 7 scope on it, and do what you need to get it shooting consistently under 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards. You might have to have the trigger tweaked, a bedding job, a recrown. Get a decent rangefinder, as most people have fits estimating range. Get a GOOD 7 or 8 power binocular, and LEARN TO GLASS. LEARN TO GLASS. LEARN TO GLASS. Practice shooting over a backpack, from shooting sticks and from ofhand. Get a top notch pair of boots.
The 30/06 is less expensive to shoot in factory loads than a magnum, and that will be much more conducive to getting the practice that you should have.
Elk have a fairly large kill zone compared to a deer, and most are killed under 300 yards,so it doesn't require a Herculean feat of marksmanship or specilized equipment to kill the,. What it does take is dependable equipment that you are familiar with.

Royce

......rosie is far from a woman. , but now that you mention it, rosie and the wsm's do have alot in common.

I'll go with that.
Good Post.
JW

i think my questions are getting answered

Reloader7RM nailed it.

This big difference is the few ounces weight you save with a short action.

................The 300 WSM will get ya better velocity, more down range energy, a shorter action and more recoil to go with it. However if you are a reloader, the 300 WSM can be re-loaded down to `06 levels.

Regardless of the downrange energy # differences on paper, the old `06 will do anything on game for use in Illinois that the 300 WSM can do.

On the other hand, if one were consistently hunting out here in the western states in wide open plains country, the 300 WSM imo would make the better choice because of its flatter trajectory.

Get the rifle and cartridge that best suites your hunting needs for game, hunting style, and terrain the "majority" of the time.

Although I own a 300 WSM, for Illinois the majority of the time, the `06 is the better choice.

if you reload = either which ever floats your boat
if you do not reload = 30-06
300WSM = 180's @3000FPS, cases sized correctly last a long time, on average a more accurate round.
30-06 = feeds better for sure, and you can buy them at Walmart!

which ever floats your boat.

What's the difference in the 30-06 and the 308?

Just imagine a fat 308 giving you an extra 200 fps.

"..whats the difference in the 300 wsm and 30-06"

About 250 fps with a proper 180gr. bullet. Good of course, but that's really not a lot of difference.

With apoligies to their fans, magnums have always had their greatest appeal to those who study ballistics charts but have little hunting experience or faith in their shooting skill. Largely trivial differences look good on paper but it's more difficult to see in the game woods. Old guys with .30-30s and .35 Remingtons still take their share of game each year, the steady, "obsolete" .30-06 users do too.

I think it would be quite hard to demonstrate any theoretical accuracy average differences at all. And any advantages to a "short action" is limited to magazine articals. I just can't imagine how or where moving a "long action" bolt another half inch is any serious trouble and, if weight is an issue,just carry one less Snicker's bar and leave the rifle alone!

BUT, bottom line, the younger user is unlikely to get "magnumitis" outta his head until he gets/uses one so he may as well get it done and over with.

IMHO.

With no apologies to this kind of nonsense. Only a novice who weekend road hunts would say this.

250 fps? you will be way over pressure. Obviously you have no clue and don't look at ballistic charts.

On the contrary, those who are confident in their shooting skills can handle the magnum as a tool that enhances their opportunities.

As a younger user of the 270 and 280 I came to see the light at a later age in life and started using more powder capacity.

Boomtube, where do people like you come up with this crap. And the one that posted "guides" prefer their sports to shoot 30-06's. FWIW Most of the guides I've talked to were off season cowboys and sheepherders and construction workers that knew considerably less about rifles than I do. Perhaps the outfitters should start asking the sports, "are you an average hunter?" What exactly is an "average hunter?"
I know absolutely nothing about the .300WSM. But I know a great deal about the 30-06 and the 7mmRM and the .300WM and the .338WM and the 8mmRM. I have shot them all and shot them enough to be quite capable with them. And if some bath-a-year guide started trying to tell me what rifle I should be using, he'd be looking for another client.
You folks that want to make broad, sweeping statements in an attempt to appear knowledgable do just the reverse.

The 300WSM offers more Oomph in a lighter/shorter/handier package and will out agg it as well.

Much prefer the 7WSM however....................

..........Boomtube!................Speaking for myself anyway, I can assure you that as a 300 WSM owner and as a 375 Ruger owner (no "magnum" wording included there btw), that I have "PLENTY" of hunting experience along "WITH" the all shooting skills necessary to easily handle those rifles. I`m sure the other mag owners here feel the same way regarding their rifles. I don`t think we mag owners just sit around looking at ballistics charts either.

You are just plain `ol cement headed biased towards the 30-06 and that`s ok, fine and dandy. But don`t slam or under-estimate those of us who do own the mags because of your obvious dislike or bias against them.

There is a little more to a shorter actioned rifle than just the bolt throw and more to the short actions than from just magazine articles. I have owned longer actioned rifles for many years, but also like the shorter actioned rifles as well. The shorter actions have never lost me any game. And if someday I do lose a game animal, it won`t be because my rifles,,,OR should I say instead,,,,,their shorter action lengths.

Dude, Nosler is said to use the 300WSM barrel as its "accuracy barrel" in testing .308 cal bullets...why not the 30-06?

"Theoritically" I would bet the Nosler technicians know more about which cartridge is "on average" more accurate than you do. Nothing wrong with either cartridge weight the pros and cons to your fit! A stainless steel Ruger 30-06 with a Leupold 3.5 x 10 on it would sure go a long way but once Kimber releases the 30-06 Montucky in real 84 size there will be another few bucks of my kids inheritance that they will never see... I am thinking lite these days..on the other hand my Kimber classic in 300WSM with 180's over RL19 is "reasonably" accurate if I don't mix catridge cases..

My goodness, seems I have touched a few touchy nerves! Guess what guys...I expected it! No one can safely post that most magnums are vast over-kill for most users and uses. And it isn't a "put down", it's simply a stagement of fact.

Like any such broad comment, I can't cover all situations in a few words and I certainly didn't post my thoughts as iron clad and fully apply in everyone's situation. Nor did I mean it that way and I suspect each of you are bright enough to recognise it! Okay, so, you love your mags and get your hackles up when anyone comes along and suggests it may be more weapon than is commonly needed, which is all I did say.

If you are fully convienced you are right and I'm wrong, don't be so thin skinned and defensive. Perhaps you could even counter my comments with arguments of your own without resorting to personal attacks and snide suggestions of my inexpericence, just "pile on" disparaging attempts to intimidate discent like a bunch of kids or Democrats on TV?

Nosler's use of a .300WSM is supposed to convience the world that the .300WSM is king of accuracy by some kind of magic? If any such .30 cal magic exists it would be found in the .308! Fact is, the magic of accuracy is in the barrel and action, not the chamber.

The projected 180 gr. velocity differences I cited came from a quick look at Barne's #4; perhaps others should look! ?

Bottom line, my first comments stand as I stated them. But, that is not intended to dissuade anyone with a terminal case of magnumitis from scratching his itch!

No flies on a 300 WSM. It's just an octive above an '06.
If ya don't like the belting a 300 WM delivers, then a 300 WSM is for you, provided you're looking for more than an '06 has to offer.
It's the only one of the WSM's I'd consider owning.

My experience, in equal barrel lengths, is the 300 WSM is 150 - 200 fps faster than the 30-06, but RL17 will make the difference closer to 250 fps faster.

For ranges beyond 400 yards the additional velocity of the 300 WSM is nice to have but not necessary either. The real plusses of the 300 WSM over the 30-06 is the plethora of ammo available for it, all of which is loaded to the gills. The other plus is the 300 WSM is chambered in the excellent Kimber Montana.

A sub 7.5lb "all-up" rifle that launches 180's at 3K is a lot of rifle in a handy, light package.

Boobtube, your type are a dime a dozen, you come and go... 100% internet blather and zero knowledge.

.............."Magnum",,,,,, is simply the word added on to the cartridge designation. Speaking for myself and maybe for others too, those of us who are "mature" who own cartridges which end with the word "magnum" don`t necessarily have a terminal case of magnumitus or have an itch to scratch. However, you may want to think so.

Interestingly, the 375 H&H has the word "magnum" after it, but the slightly more powerful 375 Ruger does not!! Hmmmmm.........Does that mean the 375 H&H MAG boys are all suffering from magnumitus but I`m not???

And us reloaders who own "magnums" can always reduce our loads in order to help cure ourselves from the horrendous terminal case of "magnumitis!"

Next time I`m at the range shooting my 300 WSM or my 375 Ruger Magnum and while there have the urge to scratch my crotch; WHOOOPS I meant itch,,,,,,,I`ll be remembering this thread and thinking of you.

"Boobtube, your type are a dime a dozen, you come and go... 100% internet blather and zero knowledge."

Ah. gee. Another overpowering intellectual put-down from another "type" speaking with all the authority of a high post count...I'm SO embarassed!

Everyone should scratch what itches.

The answer to your question is a couple of hundred feet per second, is that substantial, probably and it can sure come in handy on ocassions..My 300 H&H with a handload shoots the 220 gr. bullet at the same velocity my 30-06 shoots a 180 gr. bullet..for a stopping shot I think its worth the difference. I like them both, but I know which one is the most powerful and which one shoots the flatest and the 30-06 is my favorite cartridges, but its not a 300, end of story. Enhanced ammo you say? that won't work, Enhanced comes in both calibers!.

Phils latest bruha with a Big Alaskan Brownie took place a few days ago with the 30-06 and the 220 gr. Nosler..Bear came at him in the thick alders from 15 feet, first shot between the shoulder blades put him down, then he gets back up, second shot in the neck and he goes down and gets back up, 3 rd shot in the neck and it kills the bear..Good performance from the 30-06, but Phil told me he was wishing for his 458 Lott, that is too close for comfort, not saying the 458 would have done a better job, but it would have made Phil feel better!! I have been charged 3 and a half times by Cape Buffalo and I always wished I had a bigger rifle, even though I had a 404 or 416 Rem..it's a natural reaction, even though the rifle you had worked.:)

The bottom line is a 300 is bigger and better than a 30-06, a 338 is bigger and better than a 300, a 375 is bigger and better than a 338, an on up the power scale, thats the way it works, like it or not but some just can't seem to understand this simple principle..If your satisfied with what you got then your good to go, and the results are yours to live or die with I suppose...I'm good with that anyway.

I protest! Comparing Rosie O'Donell to any cartridge is rude. Please near do that again!

Ray
Way too much common sense for one post.
+1

Nice combination for sure.

I like to think of the 300WSM as a kick ass, short action '06. Not a bad thing to be!

270/280/30-06

What could go wrong?

Good post

I like Ray's post too. My feeling has always been, for larger game anyways, shoot the biggest rifle YOU CAN SHOOT WELL. Emphasis on WELL.

Chambering do matter in extreme accuracy pursuits.

In a high zoot rifle,do I think a WSM will out agg an '06? Yep and reliably.

The biggest concession the WSM coughs up,is one more round in the belly,which IMHO is a more than fair trade for whatcha get in increased performance................

Boomtube? Squawkbox is more like it! I had an uncle who, before he pasted away, hunted all over the country. His rifle of choice was a .300 Weatherby Magnum. He used this over his 30/40 Krag and BOTH of his 30.06s. I asked him one time why he chose that rifle all the time? I said "isn't it a little overkill"? His reply was simple. He said "because I shoot it so well. That rifle fits me like a glove so well I can shoot it from any position with accuracy & confidence". He assured me that the 30.06 was a fine caliber because it "helped bring his ass home" from Germany in WW2. He'd say with a wink, "trust me, the .06 will do a fine job killin'". Yet, he chose his Weatherby. I guarantee he never saw a ballistics chart in his life.

What if someone is a diabetic & has a bad back? He may need a Snickers bar AND a lighter rifle! DUH!

As for younger users getting "magnumitis", please! Young hunters tend to base their opinions towards rifles, calibers, etc. from what they see US do or say. My son has been exposed to my 6.5x55, 30.06, .308, .300WSM, .45 & .50 cal muzzy's, .12ga, his .410 & .20ga and a few others. I've explained the differances, why some were magnums & some were not & had him do research on his own. He told me for his first rifle he wouldn't mind a 7mm.08 or a .260rem or a .270win. OK then! He was 17 when he told me this. WE'RE molding the hunters of tomorrow. They get things like "magnumitis" if they're guided that way or not exposed to more than that.

"nough said

You forgot to mention the 284 win, the best non magnum 7mm.

Nothing as far as the game animals in question will feel.

I have read most of the post above and from a recoil shy individual I will stay away from the magnum family.

I missed the largest Mule Deer I have had a chance to shoot because of anticipating the recoil of the 300 Magnum. I shoot a lot of shotgun and rifle over the year and I have always been one who anticipates heavy recoil and I can't get passed it. I shoot the 30-06 and the 260 with results that have never been disappointing or any problem with accuracy from either.

I respect a person that can handle a magnum's recoil and muzzle blast as I can't. I am a rather large individual and it doesn't make me feel well that I can't handle it mentally. I know physically I have no problem. I know that in a hunting situation there is more than likely only a handful of shots at best, but I know that it is going to kick the daylights out of me and my pea brain says oh no you don't you aren't going to stay in the rifle and get kicked.

I am not sure that the difference between the two would be noticed by what you are shooting but perhaps at the outside distance the WSM might have a tad more oomph but how many times would that be in a year of hunting? Most times I can get a little closer if I think that I am on the back edge of my distance for either of the 30-06 or 260.

I have better accuracy with either of these as I tend to stay put on the rifle.

Just my experience and perhaps yours is different. I would weigh your pros and cons of each and then if you are still undecided toss a coin and don't look back.

When moneys tight uses the gun you got, would never say no to a elk hunt because I only had a 25-06. Load some TSX's or similar, kill elk just fine, use the money to get out there hunting sooner.

Deakin, then get rid of the .300 and use the 30-06 and not worry about it. There are various ways to cure yourself of flinching but they would require a year long regimen of shooting the .300 (actually anyone that shoots a boomer well will tell you that you need to shoot them often to keep your hand in) but IMO you'd be better off spending your time practicing with the '06. You say you shoot it well so why not just get better?
I killed my first elk with a 30-06 and a 200gr Speer Hot Core bullet.
I don't know how you are mounting your .300 but to shoot a boomer, you must handle it firmly. Grasp the wrist with authority and the forearm tightly and pull them into your shoulder firmly! Above all, don't shy away. You don't want the rifle to get a running start. Then the rifle and you move back as a unit.

Depends upon the action it is housed within. It can shine or fizzle,due to mag constraints.................

The Kimber WSM I bought felt better in my hands than the 06 from the same manufacturer. I hunt with a soft 180 at mild speeds and it is just fine, let 3 walk on Saturday at 13 yards. You want to hunt deer with a 9.5 pound 375 Ultramag/5x25x56 S&B, perfectly fine, no problem for me...but YOU tote it!

First off, there aint nothing wrong with loaded your 25 with good bullets and just using it. Make no doubt about it if you do your job it'll do yours. And if you screw the pooch with it you'll need track shoes. And, the same goes for the 06 and the 300 shorty or any other round for that matter. Killing is down with placement and wrecking tissue important for sustained life.

But if you're really jonesing for a new rig that's all good as well.

I guess I look at the 06 vs the 300 shorty like this. And this is only my way and no way does it need be anyone elses.

I can have 4/5 down in the 06 and 2/3 down in the WSM depending on how its set up.

With the 300 I can run a 180 @ 2950 and with the 06 I can run a 168 @ 2950. So I guess that might make people wonder is the idea of bumping up another 15 or so grains and getting the same speed really worth it...? Some might say yes and to some it won't be. Personally I feel it'd take killing about 6 ark fulls of game with each to see if there was ever a diff. I don't think there is but that's just my way.

I would not buy the Mod 7 in a WSM, no way no how and that is based off being around 3 of them in 300 that were at their best single shots cause they fed so incredibly bad! I loved how they felt as they're seductive lil rigs but I'd pass on them.

The T3 will feed I think the best of any of the WSM's day in and day out. And it's about as light as they come as well.

The Big Sky (which you didn't mention) is a good one but I cannot like the perch bellly nor am I true fan of the action. Though they've certainly gotten better but they still feel tinny to me, kind of a shovel +P. And at least now they feed ok. But that's all moot points as you didn't ask for info on this one so sorry for the rabbit trail. Now the up and coming 84L in an 06 is gonna be a player and about a pound lighter.

Best of luck to ya, I'd say just take your 25/06 and stoke it with 115 Nozlers.

Dober

Hate to say it, but Republicans are just as bad...

I totally agree with your assertion that magnums aren't needed by many who have them. You can't have too many '06s... 2 of my 7 centerfires are chambered in the Springfield, and 3 of 'em are based on the '06 case.

Walk into some ma and pa store out west and you're a lot more likely to find 30-06 ammo than just about anything else. You can't go wrong with that cartridge... and if I were you, I'd spend the money on a CRF Model 70 featherweight.

On the other hand, shoot whatever you like; if its a 300 WSM more power to ya.

The beautiful thing about this country is choice... at least for now .

The way I see it, the difference is about 13 gr of water capacity. About 11 if you use commercial 30-06 brass.

If you only buy factory ammo, the 300 WSM is a solid 200-300 fps ahead of the 30-06.

If you handload, and aren't averse to warming up the 30-06 a bit, then the 30-06 is only about 100-150 fps behind the 300 WSM.

Remember the 300 WSM is loaded to around 65K lbs-psi. The 30-06 is loaded to around 58K.

I typically load my 30-06 to around 62K or so, as interpreted via a chronograph, and Quickload velocity/pressure correlations.

A lot of folks poo-poo that approach as hazardous, yet they may not consider that 65K is SAAMI standard for such rounds as the 270 Win, and 25-06 Rem.

As far as action length and magazine capacity goes, that's mostly personal preference. There are always aftermarket DBM systems to increase capacity. I don't see any great advantage to the short action over the long myself. I kinda favor the Remmy long action magazine for the latitude it offers in oal.

MontanaMarine, FWIW, thank you for your service.

Thanks. I never really know what to say to that. I kinda feel like it was a priveledge to have served.

"just "pile on" disparaging attempts to intimidate discent like a bunch of kids or Democrats on TV?...Hate to say it, but Republicans are just as bad..."

efw, I understand what you mean, it does sorta look that way at times but I disagree to some small extent. But, unlike the immature ankle nippers attacking me for simply holding a different opinion, respect demands that I attempt to expain WHY I disagree!

It is obviously true that both parties yammer at each other quite often. But, the big difference I see is that the Repubs usually state a point, or a few points, on which they disagree. Dems NEVER do that, they invariably sneer at and try to slime those who disagree with them as stupid, ignorant, uncaring, "in the pocket of big interests", indifferent to the "poor", greedy, mean, selfish, etc. It's hard to "argue" with such silliness on any rational basis! And, it seems that all the Dems - and local ankle nippers - really seek is to intimadate and depress disscent, not win an intelligent argument. But I don't intimidate easily, I've had serious shots taken at me from far brighter opponents.

My primary goal in continuing on this has not been to accomplish anything with my attackers, doubt that's possible, but to encourage any others who have been, or might be, hesitant to speak out from fear of such attacks; just don't let the foolishness get under your skin, stick to the subject and a sound defense is easy enough! So, my "pile on" statement, etc. stands. I would suggest anyone re-read the posts attacking me and the opinion that prompted it all. Others here - like you - responded intelligently. That IS the proper thing to do!

Fact is, most of these attacks have been a fun thing for me; it's like being in a butt-kicking contest with a group of one-legged guys! An amusing activity for sure but winning has little satisfaction, it's just too easy!


--------------------

Mr. Marine, personally, I think it's best to just say, "Thank you, it was an honor and privilige to serve."

And, after all, the freedom for people to be as foolish as they wish, and in safety, was one of the things that called us into that service, right? And all them stripes indicate you did a fine job for a long time girene, Semper Fi! (That's said in respect, my suit was a much safer blue and I only earned half your stripes! )

You can get pretty close to 300 WSM power from an 06 using various High energy and light magnum factory loads.

I love the 30-06 and I was in the Marine Corp long enough ago that I carried one of the damn things but when folks start talking about red-lining it in order to achieve what would be moderate performance from another cartridge, I'm gonna go with the bigger cartridge if that's the performance I need.
The '06 can stand on it's own merit. Why try to make it something it's not? Like the current trend to try to make a .243 out of a .223.
What drives this whole debate is how far away can you kill something. Has anyone thought about getting closer? Does that $300 worth of scent proof camo really confound the animal when you're sitting in the truck 500 lasered yards away?

The 45-70, 30-30, among other old-timers, are made into something they weren't. most folks happily accept the improvements.

Somehow, updating 30-06 performance by running up pressure to equal other cartridges based on the 30-06, brings a lot of negative reaction.

If you want something else that's cool. But to believe the 30-06 has to live at 308 performance levels when it has roughly 30% more case volume than the 308 shows a lack of understanding of internal ballistics.

Interesting concept. I always thought in terms that the .308 was trying to live up to 30-06 standards. Whether it's a standard or a magnum cartridge I don't like to motor my rifles at the top end. Rarely are the results good. And the bad results seem to come at the most embarassing times. One has to ask, how do you know when you have reached 65K in your 30-06? I don't have that sort of eq. And too, in my 30-06s, to a rifle, anytime I have tried to over-drive them, shall we say, the groups have gone to sheet. And I don't mean by a little bit. I'm talking pray and spray.

Have yet to see my first rifle,that didn't like to be run with slack in the reins.

Even someone as dumb as you,know that'd encompass alot more than a whole damned bunch.

(Then some)...............

I have an old Speer manual that lists loads that are way above the loads in the current manuals, and I have never run into problems by working up a load to near maximum from that old Speer manual. One I can think of off the top of my head is a 180 grain BTSP in a 300 WM with IMR4350. The starting load in the Old Speer manual is 2 grains higher than the top load in several other newer manuals. My load was 4 grains higher than the max load listed in the newer manuals, and still very safe, and the manual I was using listed a load 2 grains higer than I used. I was getting 3140 ft/sec with a 180, and 5/8" groups, so I settled on that for moose. It works! I've never yet squeezed one off hunting where something hasn't died on its way to the ground. Brass life has been good.

A lot of my 30-06 loads have been near the top end over the years, and I have brass that I have used 8-10 times with no problems. Now, I am not getting 2900 ft/sec out of a 180 gr, but I was getting 2800 plus, and I am easily getting 2900 out of 168 TSX's.

Just before I bought my 300 WM, I seriously considered a WSM. I opted for the longer version because I thought it held more potential, and I still do. If I couldn't get the 300WM, I would likely have just stayed with the 30-06, and after 8 years with the WM, I returned to a 30-06 and am loving it. Still got the WM, and absolutely no flies on it, but that '06 calls my name in the night.

I could get 2800fps with a 165gr bullet (me and everybody else) but if I went over that by much, my groups suffered.
IIRC, Speer was one of the last companies to use pressure measuring eq to determine their max loads. They used empirical methods, ie bolt lift, primer appearance, case measurments, on the theory that it was what their customers used so they should also.
I have found that a .300 Savage and a 7-08 will kill a deer very dead.