I'm working on a high performance mag-length heavy bullet 308 load with RL17 powder.

I like the 208 AMax but to fit it in the Rem magazine (2.825" on mine) requires pushing it way down until the ogive is almost entering the neck. Takes up a fair amount of case volume.

So I went looking for something else with a fairly high BC, and a little shorter length. Three bullets look interesting.

200 gr Speer SP, 1.27" long, BC .546

200 gr SGK, 1.40" long, BC .550

200 gr Accubond, 1.485" long, BC .588

For comparison, the 208 AMax is 1.53" long, BC .648


I have some of the SGKs, and ABs on hand so I'm starting off with them.

I laddered up with the 200 SGK with some pretty good velocity numbers. Only fired two rounds at each level for velocity figures. Will get them on a target soon.

Here's the data,



M700 VS 308Win
Factory bbl/throat, cut to 20.5"

200 gr Sierra Gameking
Win brass
CCI 200
2.81" oal
Reloder 17

50.0 gr - 2610, 2621 (15' from muzzle)
51.0 gr - 2662, 2663
52.0 gr - 2721, 2714 (fairly heavy compression, just a hint of bolt resistance after firing, no ejector imprint or primer flattening).

I loaded up 10 rounds at 51.5gr for an accuracy check. Estimating about 2700 fps MV. This will deliver approx 1900 fps/1600 ft-lbs at 600 yards, in local atmo.



There will be updates to this as I go along.

Good info, thanks for posting it.

Considering the topic of the post, anybody heard the latest on the Seekins BDL to blind mag setup?

Interesting. I have been thinking of trying the 180AB in my 77RL 308 with R17 powder.

Wow, impressive velocitys.

Thanks for the info................DJ

Shane,

I don't believe Speer's BC claim on that one, but I can't really prove out my doubt. It's a flat base and doesn't seem to have a long ogive.

mathman

Those are some pretty smoking numbers for a 200gn out of a 20.5" barrel. I'll have to check, but I think I can run ~2700 with Berger 185 BTs out of my 26" barrel using Varget, but that's pushing it.

...............I`m not surprised at his #s from the shorter 20.5" barreled 308. RL17 increases velocity in the 308 as it does for the WSMs.

69 gr of RL17 averaged 3234 fps using the 155 gr Berger VLDs. And 66 gr RL17 averaged 2953 fps with a 180 gr SST. Both loads from my 16.5" barreled 300 WSM Ruger Frontier carbine.........Not bad ay?

Gotta luv todays new hi tekkie powders.

I've run RL17 in my 338-06, but not the 308. May have to do it for fun. If it works so well in the 308, would it not work well in the 338 Fed? But, even Alliant's numbers don't come close to 2700 with a 200. They are showing 2641 with a 180gn and 2739 with a 165.

Did some more testing today.

308 Win
Win brass
200 Accubond, moly'd
2.815" oal
RL-17
20.5" bbl

50.0 gr - 2620 fps (heavily compressed, no pressure signs)

Here's a visual. Left to right, 200SGK loaded to 2.81" oal, 200AB loaded to 2.815" oal. 208 AMax, 200AB, 200SGK.


Put some rounds on target at 100 yards today. 5 rounds each of the 200 SGK at 2700 fps, and the 200 AB at 2620 fps.

Wind was full value at 15-25 mph. So you can see the lateral dispersion is noticeable. Just keep in mind the wind conditions.



I pulled the last shot a little high on the ABs.


Both of these have potential.

The 200 SGK at 2700 fps will deliver about 1900 fps/1600 ft-lbs at 600 yards, 4500' el.

The 200 AB at 2620 fps will deliver about the same. ( lower MV, but higher BC)


In direct comparison on the other end of the spectrum, I loaded 130gr Barnes TTSX to 3100 fps. At 600 yards it delivers about 1825 fps, 960 ft-lbs.

I'm a little skeptical too. I haven't actually shot any of them, just stated the published numbers.

Shane-Thanks for an informative post. I have some 200gr TSX that I've been meaning to load up for moose. Your numbers tell me it should have enough oomph to get the job done, but there might be better options. Time for me to load 'em up and shoot 'em.

Ballistically these loads are quite impressive but I don't know that I'm comfortable with your powder charges. Alliants website lists 48.7grs of RL-17 as a max load for a 180gr bullet:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...ight=180&shellid=80&bulletid=189

and gets about the same velocity out of a 22" barrel with a 180gr bullet that you are getting out of a 20.5" barrel.

Using a 20gr heavier bullet with 1.3grs over the max listed load for the lighter bullet almost always means you are shooting at higher than normal pressures. I see where you say that you aren't getting pressure signs but you ARE - VELOCITY IS A PRESSURE SIGN! If you are getting the same velocity with heavier bullet and heavier powder charges in a shorter barrel no less YOU ARE USING HIGHER PRESSURES! Your rifle is probably a very finely fitted gun that won't show pressure signs on cases as a less well blueprinted one might.

I wouldn't use your powder charges with that weight bullet!..................................DJ

Those 200gr TSX fall between the 200 AB, and 208 AMax, for length. Long suckers I guess being all copper. I'd still look to RL17 for best speed. Might only get 48-49gr in there.

I'm only neck-sizing my brass to get all the powder volume possible.

dj,

Actually my rifle is a loose fitting factory Rem with a long throat. Also I'm using roomy brass. It all adds up.

You need to also understand the nature of RL17 and it's impregnated retardant. It kinda changes the rules. The powder is labeled "For Short Magnum Rifles".

I've been loading for over 30 years, and I understand and appreciate your concerns. I'm pretty well versed at finding pressure and backing off a couple grains. RL17 is something you have to work with to understand a little. It really takes the peak off the pressure curve. Well, that's what the experts say anyways, and I'm seeing it in application.

MM
What is your opinion of the 180 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip for long range? My 30-06 shoots them really well.
whelennut

I'll be the first to say i was skeptical about the claims of added velocity possible with RL17, but glad I gave it a try.

I hear talk of a series of rifle powders with this technology applied (impregnated retardant). Things are more interesting as we go along. We haven't reached the pinnacle of smokeless powder technology yet.

Whelennut,

I'm not a big hunter. I'm a shooter and always interested in performance. My hunting days were with old technology 243, 30-30, 30-06 stuff.

The 180BT has a reputation for good accuracy, and has a decent BC. Reports I've read about on game performance seem to run the whole gamut. Just depends who you ask. Like a lot of bullets I suppose. I would guess at 308Win velocities they would work rather well.

MM, I understand that the new propellants can give higher velocities than normal. I still don't think I'd go 1.5grs over the manufacturers max load listed with a bullet 20grains heavier. And wouldn't expect to acheive the same velocity the manufacturer did with a bullet 20grains lighter in a barrel 1.5" longer.

Maybe I'm cautious but I still have both eyes and all my fingers after reloading for 35 years......................DJ

I wouldn't recommend these loads in an M1A. A lot of 308Win book loads are geared toward that port-pressure requirement.

There are a bunch of us doing R&D with RL17 in the 308, and 7-08 with the heavies in boltguns. My findings are in line with everyone else.

I imagine the book loads are built with the lowest common denominator, and for good reason. Running heavy brass, tight chamber, short throat is always going to cause more pressure with equal charge than light brass, loose chamber, long throat, and moly.

Bottom line, if you aren't comfortable with it, don't do it.

I am completely comfortable with it, or I wouldn't do it either.

Thanks. Would like to see what a typical 165 would have done in those winds. Bet the 200s do relatively well in the wind. Also, definitely good energy down range. I'll have to play with it in my 308.

Sure seems like you are trying to make excuses and rationalize overloading.

The real difference between the companies and individuals is that they pressure test loads and stop when they get to the SAAMI pressure limits, individual reloaders often don't.

I'd love to be able to shoot 200gr bullets at 2650 out of my 308's, I'm just not willing to overload the round to do so, I have bigger guns that can do it safely...................................DJ

OK, tell me how much pressure you think I'm generating, and how you calculated it.

I'm not making excuses for anything. I'm answering your remarks.

All I'm doing is relating my findings, with particlars included, for my rifle.

I wish I owned a strain gauge. Anybody here know where one is purchased, and how much they cost?

An image of the brass from the ten rounds tested. Note sooted necks and primers not flattened at all. Consistent with normal to low pressure.

That is old brass with 20 or so loads already through it. It doesn't look pristine for that reason.

Danger comes when you hit peak pressure that is higher than SAAMI max. Most powders hit peak pressure early on, and then quickly drop down from there as the bullet travels the length of the barrel. RL17 holds that peak pressure longer within the bore as the bullet travels down, meaning that you can load to a lower peak pressure and still maintain high velocities because of the greater area under the pressure curve compared to conventional powders. I would love to see pressure data with regards to velocities achieved with RL17 at the same peak pressure other powders are loaded to.

Spot on.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

a friend of mine has one, he likes to play around with stuff like that. I've been meaning to get around to trying it with some of my rifles one day.

Neat idea, but for my purposes, watching brass life especialy primer pockets does fine.

For what you are doing I think it would be a great tool, once you figured out how to reasonably read and apply the data it produces.

I've ran pressure up to visible signs with a number of bullet/powder combinations.

With Win brass I usually see primer flattening, and ejector marks where pressure calcs at about 65K via Quickload pressure/velocity correlations.

With RL17, I'm getting velocity that correlates to 70-72K pressure, but without any signs. In fact the signs point to normal to low pressure.

RL17 with it's retarded and flattened pressure peak allows the bullet a little more of a running start before pressure peaks. This reduction of inertia, along with a longer "push" at peak pressure is part of the equation, IMHO.

Bottom line is, that one goes as far as the individual rifle will allow as far as pressure goes. Once any small pressure signs with bolt lift and or primers and or shiny case heads are evident, back off a grain and call that as maximum for the rifle and live with the velocity results.

I haven`t tried RL17 using the 200-210 grainers in my 300 WSM carbine as of yet, but have received 2818 fps using 68 gr of RL19 with a 200 A/B.

If I were to "ONLY" get 2850 fps from a 16.5" barrel using the RL17 and a 200 gr bullet, then I would just have go cry somewhere!..........Waaa! Waaa!

MM,

Thanks for posting your results with this combo. 4 friends and I are all getting excellent accuracy and velocity with this powder and RL 17. Ive settled on 48.3 seated to 2.925 for 2600 fps. 9.6 mils to 1008 yards, 300ASL, 5" groups. That bullet hits the steel considerably harder at 1k than the 178 and is affected soo much less. Its turned the 308 into another cartridge really.

JimD.

Here's the factory load data:

Reloader's Guide
Alliant Powder Reload Recipes


Recipe(s)


Caliber Bullet Case Minimum OAL
(inches) Bbl Length Primer Powder Charge Weight
(grains) Velocity
(fps) Notes
308 Winchester Speer 150 gr BTSP Federal 2.8 22 Fed 210 Reloder 17 50 2,763 -
308 Winchester Speer 165 gr BTSP Federal 2.8 22 Fed 210 Reloder 17 50 2,739 -
308 Winchester Speer 180 gr BTSP Federal 2.8 22 Fed 210 Reloder 17 48.7 2,641 -


Basically your load EXCEEDS BY 2 GRAINS the factory MAXIMUM load listed for a bullet 35! GRAINS LIGHTER!

Sorry but you just don't know what pressures you are running until you actually pressure test them. I really think this is a perfect example of how case pressure signs can be misleading.

If the factory listed maximum load for 165gr bullets is 50grains. 52grains with a 200gr bullet ISN'T A SAFE PRESSURE LOAD!

I don't mean to be a jerk here, I'm just trying to be a freindly voice of reason. MM you normally have seemed to be a pretty solid rational guy I can't beleive that after you have time to really think about it going above the factory listed max load by this much is safe reloading practice.

Good luck, I hope you keep your eyesight and fingers.................................DJ

Shane-I would be VERY interested to know some of your results with the heavies in the 708. Either here, or perhaps you could start a new topic. You could give us all a starting point.

yukonal, have a read here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1367024&page=1



djpaintless, if you are interested, check out some of these results with the 308 and 208/210s with RL17, you'll see I'm not the Lone Ranger:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1299481&page=1

I'm over book a good ways on my 30-06 load too. Nosler Fifth Edition lists 58.0gr RL22 as max for the 200 partition. I'm running 61.0 gr RL22 with the moly'd 208 AMax. QL calcs my pressure as 62K. My soft Norma brass has 40+ reloads (neck-sizing only) and primer pockets are still good to go.

I appreciate your concern. I am operating within my comfort zone. I'm not telling anyone to run out and duplicate my loads. I only know they are fine in my rifle, with my components, and that's all I'm relating to anyone interested.

DJ,

SAAMI pressure standards are just that, standards and guidelines. As an engineer I know two things, everything has a healthy factor of safety built in (hence the use of proof loads to see where the real breaking point is), and the pressure point for cartridges has more to do with the metallurgy and powders available when the cartridge was introduced than anything else.

Hence, the 6.5X55 and 260 rem have different pressures when the cases are not that different, and the 30-06 and 25-06 and 280 and 270 and 35 whelen have different pressures on virtually the same case, etc., etc. and on and on.

Bottom line: When I get back to the world, I'm trying RL17 and some moly'd Berger 210 VLDs and moly'd 208 grain AMAXs in my heavy barreled Savage, and I'm betting I'll end up right where MM is load wise.

MM - thanks for the link to the Hide. That's good stuff right there.....

dj, no your not coming over as a jerk.

Having some hands-on with this powder in the 308 case, I'll venture a guess that the charges listed by Alliant are all the powder they could fit in virgin Federal brass, and still seat the bullet to 2.80" without distorting the bullet tip.

I also noted that Alliant didn't provide any pressure data for the loads listed on their website.

Considering RL17 was developed for the WSM family, you will have to try pretty hard to get overpressure in a 308 case. I'd guess impossible with a 165gr projectile. I don't think you could enough powder in there to make it happen.

I'm cramming as much as possible in the cases, and that's under 200 gr bullets at 2.81" oal.

A few factors in my rifle/methods do reduce pressure and increase powder capacity:

- Using Win brass which is a bit roomier than most.
- Only neck-sizing to preserve a bit more case volume.
- moly. ( not on the SGKs, but my rifle bore is VERY seasoned in the stuff)
- I have a factory Rem chamber and throat. Which means a bigger combustion chamber, and a running start to the lands.

Not to get your post off topic Shane, but I'm seeing solid 200fps gains with R-17 compared to my R-22 load in my 243AI/w my moly'd 105Amax's......this '17 is some good stuff. My vanilla 243 is showing great things with '17 and moly'd 90gr SciroccoII's as well. I enjoy reading your "experiment" posts, keep it up!!!

As an aside, have you been able to "tweak" quickload for what you think are more accurate pressure results?

No problem Brad.

The more people that spend some time with RL17 and share their results the better, regardless of chambering. All the result I've read about from hands-on load development show similar results. I was a doubter myself, until I gave it a try.

It's a powder with a whole different character, and It seems to defy the regular rules. I beleive this technology will be applied to a whole series of powders to suit most rifle applications and it will be a fairly big leap in performance accross the board.

I haven't tried to tweak QL. What I have noted though, is that QL pressure/velocity correlation around 70-75K lbs psi gives great velocity in the 308, without pressure indicators typically evident at 65K or so with RL15, W748, and W760.

Shane,

Do you think a similar approach would work using 155grn bullets over RL-17 in the .308win?

Regards,

Peter

Pete,

I haven't tried that. My gut feeling is that RL17 would be too slow to build good pressure behind a 155.

In the 30-06, RL17/155 would probably be spectacular.

I pushed 155 Scenars to 3030 fps via RL15 with room left in the case (22.5" bbl, moly). RL17 might get 3150-3200, just a guess though.

Loading data from Alliant.

308 Winchester Speer 180 gr BTSP Federal 2.8 22 Fed 210 Reloder 17 48.7 2,641

Alliant Alliant site

I'm a believer in there being no free lunch when it comes to performance.

Where RL17 will probably make us pay the price will be in longer segments of the bore being ate up as it wears. Setbacks will be further.

I'm basing that theory on the longer flatter top of the pressure curve. More length of the bore is going to be exposed to the highest part of the pressure/heat mix.

Bore wear is not a concern.

Are your pressure indicators "just a hint of bolt resistance after firing, no ejector imprint or primer flattening"

Have you made any other observations or measurements of pressure?

If you have some pressure estimates to provide, I'm interested in them, and how you calc'd them.

I know my rifle. I've put several thousand rounds through it, and developed a number of loads up to visible ejector flow, then back off a bit. I always see some of this flow before primers are showing abnormal flattening (see pic of brass posted earlier here).

Having 20+ reloads in the same brass gives me a good indication that pressure is fine with my working loads.

I only have up to five reloads on some test brass with this RL17, but so far no loose pockets.

On one hand I am all for significant improvements and I hope that you have found it.

On the other hand I wait for Denton to get back.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the 168 AMax/TTSX and/or the 208 AMax, RL-17, '06......................

Crunching some numbers on QL, I think RL17 will do pretty well in the 30-06 with most anything 150+ grains.

Damned shame I have 20 pounds of '15, and not '17 or '22..................

I wouldn't fret 20 lbs of RL15. It's a great all around powder.

Shane,

I still think you need a strain gage............might be that several here might be willing to share investing in the equipment & have you keep possession of it & run the tests.

Loads/pressures, even tho done in your guns would still have relative meaning to others.

Here's some info on the equipment.

RSI Equipment

MM

It wouldn't matter.

The naysayers don't believe in the accuracy of pressure testing equipment when the results don't fit their position anyway. I'm really not bothered. I'm just sharing some results. Not on a crusade to change anyones religion.

My methods of reading pressure have essentially been used by reloaders since the introduction of smokeless powder. They are not precise, but seem to have served us fairly well for many decades. Having chronographs and software doesn't hurt either.

Some clearly think I'm reckless. Fine.

I'm actually a lot less worried about your rifle blowing up than someone with a tight chambered, tight throated rifle trying the same loads.

I have a good freind who used to think several of his rifles had "fast barrels" until one of them blew up. Fortunately he wasn't hurt, thank god he was wearing glasses. I've seen a couple bad things happen when people who thought they were "advanced reloaders" and could somehow acheive a couple hundred fps faster than the labs could.........................DJ

MM

Have you done any work with the 208 AMAX or 210 moly'd berger in a 300 Win Mag?

I have one of those and 400+ 210 bergers waiting my return from Iraq, along with 300 208 AMAX's. I intend to use it as my primary hunting rifle, although your data makes a strong case for my Savage heavy barreled 308 with a great scope.

Thanks for that...I'm not after super high velocity but would like an accurate load that gives me 2900fps, but I don't think is unreasonable.

Upto now, the loads I have tried with Varget and RL-15 show good accuracy at 2650fps -2700fps, but then fall off as the velocity increases.

I have a batch of 155grns loaded over some TAC to try next, and if that doesn't work I may switch to VV N140 or N150...

Acutally their N5XX powders sound like they are meant to perform with similar pressure curves to Rl-17, so N540 or N550 maybe worth a try as well..

Regards,

Peter

The Berger 190 Hunting VLD, with a BC of .570 would perform well in this I'm sure. Don't know what the length of the bullet is though.

David,

Im not MM, but your gonna be around 72.0 of RL 22 with those bullets, I can just about gaurantee.

JimD.

Shane, that's reassuring to hear.

Yeah, I hear you on that, I've used the same criteria for as long as I've loaded with never a split case or even a blown primer, ..........every time this subject comes up it's the same old song.

Problem is, there are lots of reloaders who really don't understand all aspects & who are truly dangerous.......not gonna say reckless, just not genuinely knowledgeable, and hence, tend to get themselves (and maybe others) into trouble.

And then the schitt splatters all over everyone else who doesn't take the ultra conservative POV.

MM

David,

I believe Jim's call is correct.

I don't have any experience with the 300 WinMag. There's a bunch of 300 WinMag shooters over on the 'hide though. They all tend to congregate around 208s/210s and about 72gr RL22.

There are some significant volume differences between brands of brass in 300 WinMag. Even Quickload goes as far as listing four types, and their respective volumes.

Per Quickload:

Max case capacity to overflow (grains of water).

300 WinMag

Norma - 95.5
Winchester - 93.8
Federal - 92.0
Remington - 88.0


A max load in Norma or Win brass could easily get wonky in Rem brass.

Shane, Thoughts on running RL17 with 140s out of a 6.5-06? Case capacity is really close to a 284 and hoping it may be a fit. Not sure if QL has anything on that round or not, but can't find RL17 data for it.

There's a reason I provided all the pertinent details of my componenets, rifle, and workup.

None of this negates the need for traditional load development. We should all know by now that each rifle is a bit of an entity unto itself.

Start low and work up remains the right way of doing business.

At the end of the day, I know they are out there, but I can't save a fool from himself.

It would probably work fairly well.

Remember as compared to a 308Win, the 6.5-06 has a lot more volume, and a lot smaller hole in the front to let pressure work. So the pressure dynamics are going to be a bit different than the 308. Things could get sporty with a smaller change in propellant.

I usually work in 1.0 gr increments with the 308, and 30-06, and the slowish powders I choose. In the 6.5-06, working up in .5 gr increments would be a good call.

Thank you. Looking forward to getting some RL17 and giving it a run.

RL17 sure makes the 300 WSM go... but supposedly that's what its primary formulation was for. I get a solid 50-100 fps (depending) over the "best" 300 WSM powders. RL17 turns the 300 WSM into a 300 WM that uses less powder and kicks less...

..........Brad!.........Agreed there! RL17 does the job all-right! That stuff is turning my compact into a full sized rifle without adding on another inch to the barrel.

If you get a chance for comparison`s sake and assuming you just might have some of these bullets laying around, load up 69 gr of RL17 using the 155 gr Berger hunting VLDs. I`d be very curious to see what your velocities are.

On one of the loadings I duplicated off of Reloaders Nest, the poster submitted a velocity of 3380 fps from his 24" barrel using the 155 VLD in front of 69 gr RL17. I have been using the 168 VLDs for hogs, but will try the 155 VLDs as well.

That same loading chronyd @ 3234 fps from my 16.5" barreled 300 WSM compact, which was a loss of 146 fps or 19.4 fps per inch of shorter tube length.

Duplicating and comparing with what is on the nest is fine, but I`d also like to read what others here have done with their 300 WSM using the same RL17 loadings and bullets I`ve already chronyd.

If you don`t use the 155 VLDs, then no matter. But if you have some, it would be interesting.