Went to the range today and it'd warmed up to -4, thought I'd see you there Sam...?

Had a chance to run some loads over the clock that I'd clocked in Oct (same batch of everything). I had the rounds in the garage over night, not sure the temp in there but it was butt cold thats for sure it ws -8 @ sunrise.

Oct when it was mid 60's the loads went @ 2911 fps, today the loads went @ 2845 and 2855. Loss of about 60 fps or so and the temp was about 70 degrees different.

Not bad I'm thinking.

Dober

Was the rifle as cold as the ammo?

Nope, it'd be in the house all night. I'll run it out there for the night and the next trip. I have the ammo in the truck for tomorrow's session.

Ya think that'll make much diff?

Thx
Dober

I believe Denton has shown a cold rifle to be a pretty big "thermodynamic thief" in some situations.

I was sitting on a deer stand from before daylight this weekend. I'm pretty sure the rifle and ammo had reached ambient temp (24 degrees F) and being a handloading gacker the thought crossed my mind.

I'll test again tomorrow, thx

Dober

Thank you. I'm not in a position to readily make such tests, and I'm interested to see what happens.

m

I'm gonna stick a temp gauge in the garage as well, just so we know for sure.

Dober

Or in layman's terms- a "thermometer"?

I'm interested to see the difference that a cold rifle makes to the velocity. Keep up the good work, Dober!

Coincidentally, I shot some R-17 handloads in about 4 above yesterday. Sadly, I have no comparison for this load/cartridge in warmer weather, but I will later on!

Supposed to hit near -30F tonight Dober... should make for an interesting range session!

Good info Dober!

You lost about 60fps and I lost about 50fps(last week) so I bet your rifle cooled off pretty quick once you set it on the bench.

I'd like to run my 180/H4350 300 WSM loads tomorrow am!

Dober and I might head out there in the afternoon. Maybe you can sweet talk him into an earlier trip and head out there with us!

My schedule is...uh...fairly open when it's below zero. That whole freezing mud deal....(grin)

That's some good info Dober! Thanks for sharing.

BTW, if it is -30 tomorrow morning, I hope you will take some pics of the "group hug" around the warm barrels... grin.

Any change in the POI to go with the velocity difference?

I'm thinking that it was last week or so when Sam did some temp tests with two or three diff powders. I'm pretty sure that H4350 was one of them and so was R17. Can't recall the third maybe H4831?

All lost the same 50-60 fps if I recall right.

Sam, can you help me out on this?

We'll be there about 3 tomorrow Mac if you wish to come on out.

Thx
Dober

"Group Hugs"...last time I heard that mentioned it was by Ingwe. Spose it has something to do with those 7X shooters...

Dober

I'd be very interested in the results.

I have found in making my own BRRRR! tests that the rifle temp does make a difference as well. Which is why I put 'em out with the ammo overnight before running any tests. They are inside soft cases, and left inside them until they get shot. This keeps them from frosting up inside a warm vehicle.

Thx John, I'm all over it.

If you're up to a road trip come on over to Logan for a 3 pm hard core shoot.

Don't tell Huntr and Ingwe though or they'll wanna do those darn "group hugz"...grin

Dober

Yeah Dober, I shot H4831sc, H4350 and R17. All 3 lost about 50fps and POI was just an inch or two lower at 400 yards.


I'll bring a couple old tires for us to light up. The hugs will be up to JB and Ingwe though!

Mark,

Thanks for the invite. I'd love to, but had my fill of cold-weather testing last winter when researching an article. Plus am trying to get work done so I can head over the Miles City on Thursday to spend some time in the Western Powders pressure lab--which is indoors!

Ingwe really ain't a huggy guy, except under certain, uh, circumstances....

Any chance to test Re 15, 19, Big Game, Hunter, TAC?

I hope to do that this weekend, if the temps stay as low as they are supposed to be. I hope to shoot a 25-06, 270, 7-08, 308, 30-06, 35 Whelen, and 45-70 with a variety of powders.

Tomorrow's high here is supposed to be +7 with several more inches of snow. That's what it's all about!! It would have been nice during the late hunting seasons.

Good info guys, thanks for sharing it!!!

Yep, I think he did mention the group hug thing, come to think of it! I think he was referring to his top 5 sheep....

How long does it take the shooter to limber up in those temps?

Mike

Holy chit.

You know, I was out surfing yesterday morning - air temp around 75 and water temp about the same.. And I just knew I'd be reading about some of you crazy [bleep] going out to the range in that snotty weather.

Wish I was there..

Kinda..

taz4570,

I have tested R15 and R19, plus the three Ramshot powders you list. R15 is OK, not losing too much in cold temps, R19 not as good. Big Game and TAC didn't lose any velocity from 70 to 0, Hunter lost a little but not much.

Rancho Loco,

Actually, testing around zero isn't bad on a sunny day with no wind--which is when I typically do it. You may not believe it, but with the right clothes and some break-in of the human body (the tiny capillaries of the skin tend to shrink after a few days exposure to low temps) it isn't bad. In fact I would rather shoot on such a day than on a typical day at the range further south, because there ain't anybody else out there!

And the barrels cool off quick!

Like you say JB it ain't bad at all in the sunshine with no wind but does get a little brisk under the shady roof with a breeze!

Heck I was running them fast and hard today, had to turn on the ac in the truck to cool off the tubes...anyone believe that one

Dober

Dooooood...

That was me, Sammo, and Danny...plus two sheep....

Ingwe

Yeah...when certain people try to ply him with booze.....

Ingwe

Yeah it does!

....or as a blond actress from a half-century ago said in one movie, "visey versey."

I remember that day!


Ingwe, if you drive down bring the woolies!

I got my snuggies on now....and I'm INSIDE!


Got the next two days off...let you young guys do this...

It looks like reloading weather to me!!


Besides, no need to practice in conditions I'm not gonna hunt in!!!

Ingwe

Wow! I'm impressed you cold weather ammo testers are hard core. No wait, I've changed my mimd. You guys are crazy.

(laughin')

I tried to call in a coyote last Winter when it was about -20(light breeze). Sat for about a 1/2 hour(probly more like 10 minutes) before I said screw this and walked back to my folks house!

Theres a reason they call coyotes "smart" Sam....

Ingwe

Last year,I took a load of water jugs to the range to bullet test,yep..you guessed it,they froze before I got back to bench.Wish I had taken my camera...too funny,like shooting a snowman!

Them yotes got my number!


1mph wind predicted for tomorrow so there goes that excuse......(grin)
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=59741


You guys ever have much for scope problems when it gets that cold?

Sam, the only time I had any scope issues like that was because the rifle kept going from -26 to a warm, wet pickup cab...and back....
Wasn't a big deal though, my glasses were so fogged and frosted, I couldn't see the scope...much less see THROUGH it!!

Ingwe

That usually happens when the big buck shows up!


There was a guy camped next to cowcamp last Fall that had a Breaks bull tag. He was after a big one and had been looking around quite a bit when finally the ranch foreman gets him on some elk.
He goes to shoot and the Leupold was fogged up! Foreman offers to hold the barrel and 'aim' at the bull but the hunter declined.
Poor old bastid, never did hear if he got an elk.

Sam I had a cow tag that year ( 1991) and the first week was all -25.....
I killed my cow pretty much right off the bat with my 7x57 ( Duh..)
Actually worked up a sweat dressing her by myself, and had to take my glasses off to finish the chore...
At -26, when I was done, I stuck my glasses back on to head to the truck..


" Stuck" is the right word, they immediately froze to my sweaty head, and frosted over completely!....

I couldn't unstick them, and I couldn't see through them, so I went the whole way back to the truck looking over, under, and out along the sides of them!

Yes, I was younger, and yes, I learned a LOT of lessons the "hard way"...

Ingwe

And yet, one time when hunting with Eileen up Rock Creek, 20+ years ago, I rattled in a whitetail buck at around 30 below. At the peak of the rut they don't lose interest just because it's a little cold....

Damn dude, that would suck!


What's that Spanish word....Eye cu rumba!

True dat JB...I killed one of my better whitetails that same week, @30 below..he was out lookin' for love...

Ingwe

Mark,

Cold soak the rifle along with the ammo. And sloooow fire, and don't let the next round sit in the chamber very long and become heat soaked. When I did my test on RL22 a few years ago, I put the Oehler in the the cab of the truck and strung the line out to the skyscreens (I can drive up beside the end shooting benches at our range) in order to make sure it remained warm and functioning in the single digit weather. Pay attention to the speed reading of that first cold ammo-cold barrel round. My ES ws a lot larger in cold weather with RL22.

I'm sure you know the drill.......


Casey

Those little square batteries don't last very long....(grin)

Now that's funny --and this is from a guy who wears glasses......I've had them fog up and freeze up, but I've yet to freeze them to my head


Casey

Thx Casey, and trust me on this. Once I've gone hot I've never been accused of allowing the round to sit in the chamber very long...grin

-20 this morn so the ammo and rifle should be plenty cooled for my testing.

Dober

Looks to be a fine morning for your test!

Hope it don't warm up too much by range time.....grin

Yep, gonna be a little chilly.

A guy might have to wear a long sleeved shirt and maybe even some gloves....(grin)

You guys have fun. I was going to go yesterday but couldn't find any mag pistol primers. I think at -20 I would be looking to shoot prone from a thermarest and forgo the concrete bench

I bet you guys dont have to wait too long to set up your targets

Just sized up 60 pieces of brass for the Bob, gonna be a good day to pop a bunch of rounds off!


My prone pads are still rolled up in the bedroll but I did carp onto a good sized piece of carpet from a job last summer. Hopefully the boss didn't through it away and I can find it in the garage. Might be nice to have today.

KK-if you need mag pistola primers let me know, I may be able to help you out.

Dober

On the way Mark!

I just had to plug the old Ford in. Changed the oil last week and it didn't want to turn over..at all......(grin)

Well I just finished with a little cold weather testing myself, This topic is a good one and since I am in Southern Montana and it is only 0 degrees I gave it a go, tested a couple 7 mags with 140 Accubonds and 71 grains of Rl 19
average at 65 was 3255
1. 3248
2. 3225
3. 3209
4. 3179 10 minutes after # 3

Cant say RL19 was that bad at 0 degrees

Tested 168 Berger VLD's moly over 73 grs Retumbo, average at 65 is 3066

1. 3115
2. 3069
3. 3062
shot 3 168's naked with a different lot of powder and they rang up,1 3111, 2, 3099 and 3 at 3091
I also banged 3 rds through my little Marlin .243,58 gr Vmax
over 44.5 grs Varget, average 3680 at 65%, today
1. 3528
2. 3662
3. 3697
I would say the Marlin is more in line with the other guys findings as far as temp and velocity but they is what they is.

Thanx Dober for gettin me thinkin and my butt outside to try this before gettin on the plane, good stuff.
Rifles and ammo were left outside in the truck, only got 9
below last night, but the cold nites before really made the Elk come down off the Bighorns, we counted 30 Bulls last night, all dandys, 22 in one bunch, still fighting and carryin on, the bunch of 8 were some big old Monarchs, huge racks, nice to see.

Dakota-do you know what speeds your loads were running earlier on when it was warmer.

What I'm really looking for here is to use the exact same components in warmer weather vs todays colder weather. For sure the same lots of powder, same clock etc.

Thx

Dober

Another interesting statistic is whether the load lands in the same place. Determing this, of course, means the rifle must still be sighted in the same as it was in warmer weather.

Luckily, in Montana both a 70-degree test and a 0-degree test can often be made within 30 days or even less!

I didn't stick around too much longer after you left, imagine that.....(grin)
That little breeze was BRISK!


The 257 Roberts and H4350 were shooting a full 6" lower from where they were last time out in October.

Musta been lower velocity....Shoulda brought my Chrony....doh!

His "before" numbers are listed before the "now" numbers

Sam,

Not necessarily, though that might be part of it. I have seen rifles also shoot higher, or right or left, when the muzzle velocity changes.

The big thing is: Now you know!

Interesting JB, a guy learns something everytime out that's for sure.


Beings we aren't working again tomorrow and it's susposed to be 'warmer' might as well go back and shoot some more!

I figure there was a 100 degree temperature difference today between Bozeman and Punta Mita..

No doubt!


Think I frostbit my right cheek on that concrete seat.

I got a bit of a sun burn..

Heck, me thinks there was a 100 degree diff tween when the wind was blowing out @ Logan and when it wasn't...grin

You should see the stock work that old Biesen Sam did on his A7! I kind of liked it, thinkin he could open a company called Redneck Rifle Works...

Dober

I'll probably be there as well, the Radio Shack guy got my clock fixed.

Dober

I'm gonna try and get there before noon. Good deal on the clock.

Pretty fancy stock work if I say so myself.....(laughin')

I've got class from 9-10 but will get out there about noon unless something comes up.

Bring your clock...grin

Dober

Cool, I'll see you there.

And yeah, I'll bring a clock and hopefully a spare battery.
Need to get to the bottom of this Bob debacle!

You guys are having way too much fun. Looking forward to living there next year,2010.

Brad, next time through you better bring one of your Kimbers along. Just might find a yote on the way!

Dober, Just got back to So. Cal and the testing gave me something to do before my flight outta Billings. I have always read so many negative reports about RL19 and 22 and poor performance with cold temps, a real bummer as these powders have shot so well in mag calibers for me, I have been shooting 140 Accubonds and the 71 grs of Rl19 for quite awhile with stellar accuracy at all ranges, Retumbo the same with heavier bullets and RL 25 keeps all the numbers very close, I used Retumbo cause of its Extreme temp listed till I see some real hard consistant info that somethings that much better I will just keep using what has been working for me, heck I could have just kept using H4831 and made life simple, just dont work that way I guess

I don't think Dakota's results are bad at all;there's slight loss of velocity but not enough to worry about.

I can't help but wonder if Sam's lower POI is the result of lower velocity due to low temps, or simply shooting through cold,dense air.Match shooters I know back here have to make corrections in colder temps for long range;wonder if it's lower velocity of ammo or air density(?)

Some match shooters have told me they use Hodgdon Extreme powders,finding them more stable in temperature extremes from winter to summer.They push their 223's pretty hard for LR and blown primers in the summer pretty common

Bob, heck if I know what was going on with the Roberts.

My 270(H4831sc) was dead on at 400 though.

Of course it is a 270!

Well,Sam.....of course!

I'm gonna load up another 20 rounds for the Roberts and head out to the range.

Thinking the only benefit to pouring concrete for a living is you get to take Winter off, drink beer and shoot rifles whenever you want.....(grin)

Its only .006 from being a proper caliber...close...but no cigar......


Ingwe

.271????????

That must be one of those new Euro rounds.....(grin)


Talk to you wankers later!

Ingwe: Why am I not surprised to hear from you on this?

TF!

Just one more observation: In my recent tests the Alliant Reloder powders have been better in cold than in the past. I suspect this came about when they had to make changes to RL-15 for military acceptance some years ago. 15 got a LOT better, and I suspect they applied that technology to the others as well--though the Hodgdon Extremes still test out as the best all-around powders for cold shooting in my trials.

Not exactly....we call it "pseudo-metric"

The REAL metric of course is 7x57mm.............

Ingwe

Just got back from the range, I'd had the 338/06 and the ammo out in the garage (uninsulated) for the last 2 days.

It's been down in the 18-20 below range each morn I think, it's too darn cold to recall for sure or not.

To my point shot my load over the clock today and once again it ran @ 2855 fps. If you recall during Oct this load (same batch same can powder etc) ran @ 2910-2911 kind of range.

Bottom line, I know this is a small test but it would appear that it is fairly temp sensitive. The temp changed from almost 70 to anywhere from 6-20 below and yet it only lost 55-60 fps.

Not too bad I'd allow.

And on a side note, I ran some rounds thru my Mashburn, same deal as the other rifle. Same bullets, powder can, etc and in this rifle it didn't lose any speed. 7828 was the gas and a 150 NBT. Thought that was kind of interesting....maybe

Later gotta go and thaw out...grin

Ingwe, where were you, Sammers and I waited 4 you to show. Bet you'd of show'd if we'd of said we had the field of dream of rodents, and it was 70 degrees and the brew was coldish...grin

Dober

Thanks for the report, Dober!

U betcha Jordan, how's the temp been yoru way?

7828 sure did well didn't it?

Dober

I cranked up the floor heat and my toes didn't thaw until about Belgrade on the drive back into town....Whooeee it was chilly before the sun came out!

Mark, what powder and bullet were you testing in the 338/06?

Never mind, I NEED TO LEARN TO READ. Troy.

You know me too well......I'm temperature sensitive!

Ingwe

You coulda drove down and enjoyed the fine marksmanship from the comfort of your truck.
Missed out on one helluva a good prime rib dinner!

Did Dober buy...like you said?

Ingwe

Well, it's been about -15 to -20 around here, lately. It's supposed to stay at around -25 for the next few days. Perfect coyote calling weather

Your 7828 did impressively well. You sure it's not Hodgdon extreme H7828? *grin*

Of course!

What was the powder/bullet Dober?

Are you guys shooting over cold cronos? Does that make a difference? It was only 15 below when I woke this morning. I might do some cold weather shootin tomorrow if I have some time.

They cool off pretty darn quick with a little breeze!

You might want to bring an extra battery and keep it warmed up in your pocket.

R17 and a 200 NBT

Dober

Thanks, JB.

I kept your temp comparison article. I want to make a similar comparison in several fairly new rifles. I've got plenty of data from older stuff that gives good comparisons that track your findings quite well, even though our methods and tools differed a bit.

Besides Alliant, I've been wondering whether St. Marks has been making adjustments to some of their powders also based on some testing my brother did this year. Though his testing didn't go down to sub-zero, he tested across a range of 70-80 degrees. In his 308 Win, he found 748 to vary only ~1/3 as far as Varget did behind 150s.

It's been about as cold here as there where all you Montanans are recently, but I haven't loaded any more 748 up in my .223s to test. I did test some N-133 a couple days ago, and it lost ~100 fps from 75 down to 5 degrees.

taz4570 Looking forward to your input on 30-06 & 35 Whelen
for sure. Good shooting NC Merry Christmas P.S. What elevation
will you be shooting at?

M75,

From what I have seen lately, many of the powder companies have been making improvements in temp-resistance of their powders. Since Hodgdon now owns Winchester and IMR, I am sure some of their technology is being applied to older powders.

Did you try R-17 with 338-06 ?

That is some good news!!

Indeed it is! Thank you.

A chrono isn't cold until the display quits working They get a little slow to put up the number around -20. I've had to pull the battery out between strings and keep it in my pocket before.

I'd done lots of cold weather testing a couple years ago. You get about a 28 FPS swing with Varget in a 308 over a 120 degree spread (I've chrono'd it from -30 to 90 degrees)

Of the combo's I've tested H4350 and RL19 in the 260 rarely are over 50 FPS on a 80 degree spread
Varget in a 308 with 165s and Federal 210s isn't worth worrying about
and H4350 in a 30-06 with 180s varies less than 50 FPS.
RL15 in a 308 and 338 Federal varies very little...

IMR4350, the spreads just about double in the 260 and 30-06 (AA4350 is even worse)
7828 in a 243 with 100's will drive a guy nuts...
Federal LR primers seem to help cut the spread down (compared to CCIs offerings)

I'm undecided on TAC and Xterminator in the ARs over big temp spreads. I've got lots of conflicting data over the years. I eventually settled on H4895 behind Sierra and nosler 77's for a Highpower load (even though TAC can push them a little faster) I figure testing them between -20 and 70 degrees is a bigger swing than I'll see during season. H4895 with Federal SR match primers in Lapua brass has a spread of ~55-60 FPS in a 20" tubed AR.

Use the Chemical hand warmers to put under your battery in your chrono.

Interesting. I just went out a couple of days ago with the .25-06 shooting the same batch of 100gr MK's that I loaded up in the summertime with IMR4350. The chrono read the average velocity to be the EXACT same now in 20 degrees as it did in the summer at 70 degrees- it's still 3300fps average.

It stands to reason for the temperature to affect velocity. Everything slows down in the cold weather. Animals hibernate, we move slower, the blood thickens, warm blooded critters lay in the sun every chance they get.

I am quite sure I would not be nearly as quick on the trigger pull in that kind of weather.

Bump for 7x57Steve and his 338/06.

Dober

This powder continues to be pretty amazing. Weve been running the RL17 with the 208 amax. Have tried this combo in 6 rifles and they have all shot extremely well. It has not been temperateure sensitive at all, in fact just the opposite. I keep a log of all environmental data and dope every time I shoot. My dope at 1008 yards only changed one .1mil click(roughly 1/3moa) going from 16 degrees celcius (63 farenheit) to 4 degrees celcius (39 farenheit). This is extremely good, as the general rule of thumb is 1 moa per 10 degrees at 1K. Accuracy and consistency has been excellent as well.

Bump for another cold weather thread

Dober

Thanks for bringing this one BTT Dober...

Amen on that sentiment!

Once a guy is acclimated to winter weather, zero in the sunshine with no wind ain't that big a deal. Especially with a little exercise like tossing hay bales to the cows, or walking from the bench to the target stand. A guy can actually work up a sweat.

This is one fellow that would much rather shoot in cold conditions as described above, than attempt to work up loads out in the sun when it is 105 degrees. Winter is easier on me and the rifle as well.

Thanks to Dober and Sam for sharing their findings with us.

This is great, on two accounts.

1. To find that Rel 17 is not all that sensitive to temp variations.

2. That their are many more, like me, who actually prefer testing loads in cold weather. I'm not crazy after all

Alan

If you like shooting by yourself or with a few select friends, then cold weather shooting is the way to go. Definitely no waiting around and wasted time.

Had a break in the snowy/windy weather that has plagued Utah the past few days and shot some refining groups and a couple of near 400 yd ladders. Temps were only around 30-35 but at least the new snow kept things from getting too muddy. Didn't even wear my down coat until the temps started dropping followed by snow flurries and wind. Still, the Oehler 35P worked like a charm.

Alan

Very good info here and specifically on R17. Thanks Dober and all.

To another side issue question brought up somewhere here, I've considered too and finally put a Leup VX3 3.5-10 CDS on my .284. I've got my load cooked up including mv--very good as is accuracy--but just need to shoot at the ranges to confirm data.

Stick, if you read this, I know; it's not the way you do things. That's OK; there's more than one way to make chicken too.

Been running '17 w/105's in my 243ai for a year or so now. I don't have any chrono data from the cold weather; but real world drop data has only showed roughly a .5moa more of drop out to 1000yds in 70* temp differential. My drops mirror the speeds changes that you guys who chrono'd your loads in the cold are getting.

Thx Brad, mo good info

Dober

Dober and others:

Lots of good info on this thread, thanks. Kudo's to those of you tough enough to do the testing.

Reading this thread made me want to go put a coat on! .........................DJ

A coat?....in Oklahoma???? I was out there last january, at a buddies house for a week or 2, killing coyotes and I was dieing because it was so damn warm.

A couple weeks ago in Bartlesville it was -27 F, One week later it was in the mid 80's.

If you don't like the weather just wait a day or two .........................................DJ

Bumpus^^^^^^^

This thread is starving for input.

Does this mean winter needs to get here.

Hunting season will be good enough.

Have a good Saturday!

Randy, negative!