Guys,
I know this has probably been hashed out numerous times, but here goes. I am building another TC encore and have the frame and stock and am now looking for a barrel. I have plenty of reloading supplies for 7mag, but have been told (by a friend) that the .280 or even better .280ai will give me similar ballistics of a 7mag out to about 300 yards with less recoil and less pressure on my encore frame. Trying to decide which way to go. I know the .280ai costs alot more for reloading and the barrel itself, but in the long run may even out to about the same $. This is for whitetail, mulies, elk and hopefully one day bear/moose.

Thoughts?

Your friend is right that the .280 and .280 ai will do alot. Out to 300 yds there is not alot of meaningful gain in terms of killing effectiveness on the species your refering to if you do your part and use quality bullets. I favor a 7 mag for that round. I couldn't short myself by going the other way.

Go with the 7 mag, it's a little hoh hum, but as one guy said, it's because it's too new to be nostalgic and not new enough to create alot of excitement with the newer guys. But it leaves little to be desired or to be had in 7mm.

I'd go 7 mag.

Three of the guys I hunt with put down the 7mm Rem Mag and went a bit stronger yet. All are pretty good medium long-range shooters. By that, I mean out to 600 yds. though. 2 opted for the 7mm STW and the other a 7mm-300 Wby. I helped with the 7mm-300 and it's a real shooter.

My personal experience is that my 280 AI shoots as hard as my 7mm Rem Mag.

No secret though. I'm not a big fan of the 7mm Rem Mag

Well I thought since I had all of the 7mag reloading supplies why not just buy a 7mag barrel and start shooting.....

Not a bit of harm in that. I'd never criticize. Only offer my meager opinion.

the 7 mag is my favorite long range deer rifle

Ed

What about a 7mm-08 compared to the 7mag.

I hunt mulies and elk mostly. So, I probably wouldn't lean that direction, except for a youngsters perhaps.

Even for elk, the 7mm-08 will do it's job within it's limits, just like any cartridge.

You just need to decide what limits do you want to place on your hunting with respect to range and shots.

After it's all said and done it boils down to this.

There's no substitute for a well placed shot.

Thought so. Just checking. I have researched this a good bit, but wanted some personal advice. Looks like 7mag it is. I already have a 25-06, so I figure step up to a magnum for everything else. This way I should be covered.

I have a 26" stainless 7mag barrel I will part with. Less than a box through it. Sell or trade. Joe

PM me price. I really want a blued fluted, but will entertain if offer is right.

I view the 280 as waste of a good 7 Mag bullet.

I like it, that is great.

Much as I like the 280, the 7 Mag is just simply more gun..............but also more recoil, more noise & more powder.

Generally speaking, the 7 Mag needs a bit longer throat than most come with, in order to seat 160-175 gr. bullets to the base of the neck.

Set up that way, it's quite a bit more gun than the 280.

The best I can do with any 280 I've had with 160 gr. bullets is around 2825-2850 but I can get 3170 out of the same 160 with a properly set up 7 Mag.............that's a very meaningful difference, IMHO.

MM

I guess if his 280 loads have similar ballistics to the 7RM, then it is operating at higher pressures than said 7RM, or my definition of similar needs to be relaxed.

That said, on a lighter package, prefer the AI--but if had all the supplies and money was factor, the 7RM can be loaded to duplicate the 280AI...

1. Ballistics from the 7Mag are greater at every range. If the .280 is 200-300fps behind the 7Mag, it will be so at all ranges since they shoot the same bullets.

2. The .280 and especially the .280AI are typically loaded to greater pressure than the 7Mag.

Good decision settling on the 7Mag. I have the same setup (among other rifles) for my primary hunting guns, a .25-06 and a 7Mag. The .25-06 gets used on medium to long-range shots at deer and coyotes, and the 7Mag gets used for long-range deer and anything larger (elk, moose, bear).

dcralston......I think you are confusing some cup numbers with psi numbers in that example .


actually , these days most load books will push the 2 calibers to roughly the same pressure.

The SAAMI psi numbers for the 280 and 7RM are 60,000 and 61,000 respectively.

Max average.

Do you guys know what they placed the 280AI at--was it 65,000?

I can get better than 3200fps out of my 7mag with a 140gr bullet.As far as recoil goes,with the right recoil pad such as Limbsaver,it's not bad at all.The problem with comparing todays published data on the 7mag is,it's been loaded waaaaaaaaaaay down to make the more recent larger 7's look a lot better.My older manuals are right on with max loads and velocities as compared to most of the new ones these days.The 7mag is as good today as it was when it was first produced,only the loadings have been changed.

I don't know that the reason was to make the newer 7's look better. There was the STW and maybe a couple of others, but before a lot of the new-fangled 7's had come out, I read in one of my manuals 10+ yrs ago or more that the reason for the lower velocities at high pressures was due to shorter throat length. There was a push to seat bullets closer to the lands for better accuracy and therefore the chambering was different.

Some of the older models, according to them, had longer throats and the older data reflected that. They attributed some complaints of people being that the rifles used by them to compare data perhaps had significant throat erosion. Accuracy had not been effected appreciably as these are mostly hunting rifles.

Incidentally, my 1964 Lyman manual shows about 3 gns hotter for the 30-06 than the later manuals as well. I can't use that old data in my rifle. Powder lots change and what not. Old manuals become, therefore obsolete.

I don't think that SAAMI has published data for the 280AI, at least from what I've gleaned. However, the limiting factor for chamber pressure is not so much the action, but the cartridge's case head, i.e., the area where the brass is no longer supported by a surrounding chamber. Therefore, the limiting pressure should be the same.

Besides a slight addition in case volume, where the AI's shine is that the case's minimal taper passes more of the rearward thrust into the chamber walls, or so I've heard. That helps to prevent case-stretch and therefore case-life is prolonged.

dcralston......I think you are confusing some cup numbers with psi numbers in that example .

Gunslinger,
You are right. After rechecking the manual it does have the 280's cup pressure and then for the 7rm it shows the pressure in psi.

Just for my own info what is the difference between the two and why would a manual show the cup for one caliber and the psi for another? As a beginning handloader what would the cup # do for me.

Thanks

Day in and day out the 7RM is faster across the board if both are operated at the same pressures....in general 7RM will move a 160 gr bullet at the same velocities a 280 will move a 140,as a general rule.And a 7RM will outrun the 280 pretty easily with the same bullet weight.By how much depneds on how hot you choose to load each catridge, what barrel you are running, etc etc.

I always looked at the 280 much the same as a 270,a cartridge for a light and lively mountain rifle weighing in the 7-7.5 pound range with a 22" barrel;and the 7 mag weighing a bit more with a 24"+ tube. If I'm gonna lug a 24" tube I would just as soon have the magnum chambering and take advantage of the additional powder capacity.

Differences in recoil between them are pretty moot to me,as even a heavily loaded 7RM's recoil is trifling....this has always been one of the cartridges greatest virtues.

Many of the good load manuals will have a better explanation than what I can do , but basically


CUP numbers are obtained by the old copper crusher method , while PSI numbers are gotten by a piezeo-electric system or a strain guage . There is ROUGHLY ,( assuming we are talking about high pressure bolt rifle loads ) about 10,000 difference in the numbers of the same load between the systems , with CUP being the lower of the 2 .

But , for the most part , you cannot directly convert CUP numbers to PSI numbers .

As to why some load books show CUP for some calibers and PSI for others , I really don't know , but maybe the work was done in different labs or at different times . Many of the more obscure calibers will be listed with old data that was done years back with the copper crusher system .

To top it off , back in the day when old codgers like myself or BobinNH started loading , there was only the copper method , so the numbers were commonly quoted as simply PSI , when they were really today's CUP .

All clear as mud now ? (grin)

Thanks, I appreciate the info!

Dave

The big 7 can handle heavier bullets better at higher velocities than the .280. You would have to red line the .280 to achieve what the 7 can do easily.
They're both good rounds but folks that say the .280 will do what the 7mag will are misinformed.

Yup!

Yeah, IIRC read somewhere that it was going to be 65--maybe that was MD--can't remember. I was going to call Nosler to see what their loads were at, but haven't got around to it.

+1 Bob on the recoil. Run an AI about a pound lighter and the kiss is the same.

I like the 280AI over the 7mag with 140grain boolits. Mine runs 3206 from a 24 3/4 tube. very 7magish without the 7mag recoil. If heavier boolits are your thing then the 7mag takes the cake.

Skywalker: I own and Hunt with both calibers (the 280 Remington and the 7mm Remington Magnum) and have for MANY years!
I have never personally had anything to do with a 280 Remington Ackley Improved.
NO, I can't make my 280 Remington do what my 7mm Remington Magnum does.
Normally I don't Hunt Elk and Black Bear with my 280 Remington BUT in the past I have killed BOTH of them with the 280 Remington!
A lot of Moose country (even here in SW Montana!) IS Grizzly country!
For Moose (and MAYBE for Grizz!) the 7mm Remington Magnum should be your choice.
I have even Hunted Antelope with my 7mm Remington Magnum and lighter bullets - its a fine Antelope round, shooting FAST and flat!
Expand your horizons and consider the flatter trajectory of the 7mm Remington Magnum for when you go Caribou Hunting, Bighorn Sheep Hunting, Mt. Goat Hunting and the aforementioned Antelope!
Learn to deal with the somewhat increased recoil and the somewhat decreased barrel life of the 7mm Remington Magnum.
I did.
Best of luck with whichever you choose.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy I agree!

Unless you deliberately perch on open hillsides with your buddies near the pickup,Sony's whirling for the next episode of Western Extreme,and CHOOSE to take 700 yard shots,most game is taken at well under 400 yards,even in the west....

It may not be in vogue today,when flat trajectory is treated like a social disease,but a 140 gr 7mm bullet started at 3200+ fps(whether we get it from leaning on an AI a hair,or do it rolling over easy-like from a 7RM),is a fabulously useful tool,requiring nothing for holdover to 350 yards or so on deer/antelope-type game.....

This is especially useful when the mule deer is of trophy grade,especially skittish and not offering enough time to deploy the Leica 900,because you have already been "had"....or that rut-crazed whitetail that decides to hustle across a broad field or cut line,offering about 5 seconds to "get 'er done".

Fast-moving 140 7mm's are among the best for this sort of thing; trajectory is flat,the load is hard-hitting,and does not kick you into next week...

BTW, I am no grizzly expert, but I would not hesitate to hunt grizzly-invested elk country with a properly-loaded big 7; it has been done many times before...

I have hunted with both cartridges,(they are they are the same caliber by the way ),and I am now doing all of my big game hunting with the 280AI.My 280AI rifles drive the 140gr TTSX at 3170fps,which is actually faster than most 7mmremmag 140gr factory loads,and it works just fine on moose and elk.

+1
I have a preference for shooting heavier for caliber bullets and prefer the 175 grainers most of all in this caliber. All my 7mm RM mags have 26" tubes. As One Minute pointed out, if the throat is long enough to seat the bullet out to where the base of the bullet is flush to the bottom of the case neck and the magazine length is long enough, the personality of the 7 mm Remington changes considerably. You are starting to think about the 7mm Mashburn now!
JMHO

This is true!

I've hunted with both. I now have 2 280's and no 7 mag. I may own another 7 mag in the future, but don't feel that I'm lacking.

Sorry for digging this out, but what do you exactly mean with decreased barrel life of the 7mm Remington Magnum. When does it really matter?

I recently aquired a Rem 700 BDL in 7 mm Remington Magnum and would like to know more about my new hunting buddy.

How can I avoid the decreased barrel life you are talking about?

The mag pushes more hot gas through the same size hole, so it will generally erode the steel faster.

With that in mind I wonder why the mouths of politicians don't wear out faster.

Elmer, I would not worry my head about it as they make plenty of 7mm barrels in the event you are lucky enough to wear one out from too much shooting

The fastest I have had a barrel go was a Shilen chambered for 280,in about 600 rounds(!);that was very unusual and your 7 mag could likely go a couple thousand before it quits...it all depends but the point is don't sweat,just shoot and enjoy it.It can always be replaced.

I'm a big fan of the 280 and the short action version of the 280AI.(7SAUM) That said, it's hard to argue with any of what Bob said. I don't care to "lean" on anything - if I truly want 7mag performance, I'm using the 7mag.

Did I say that?

Geez one thing that is spooky about the Internet is that... ".....everything you say can and will be used against you......",and there is a written memo of it all..LOL! We are all being Miranda-ized

Bob has hit the nail on the head. I had a 280 AI and was shooting 63.0g of powder and with the 7Mag was shootig 65.5g of powder. The 7 Mag got 75 fps more, probably due to variations in barrels.

I have discovered R#25 with the 154g SST's which is pushing the 154's at 3200+ with extreme accuracy in the 7 Mag. The 154g SST is really a fantastic deer bullet when you start getting out there a ways. I hunted a fruit tree that was 300-325 yards away from my stand. I killed two bucks in their tracks at 300, and one jumped straight up in the air doing a summersault, landed on it's belly and never even kicked at 325 yards. The 154 SST's demand to be jammed into the lands for extreme accuracy in the 7 Mags that I have shot them in.

Recently a fellow on the fire suggested that I try Retumbo with Fed 215's with the 162g A Max and glory be, shot three shots in a single hole at 3100 fps, Rem 700 sporter-26" stainless barrel. He said that customs got 3200 fps with a tighter chamber.

I use vias muzzle breaks on my 7's and see the bullet impact on the deer's hide...recoil less than a 243 sporter.

The recoil of a 8-9lb 7mmRM is not unbearable by any means, but it is enough to make me not really enjoy practicing. That's why I'm leaning toward the 280 or 280AI for my current project. The 7RM is a wonderful chambering, but I sometimes don't need that level of horsepower. Burning 7-10 grains less powder won't decrease recoil that much, but it is noticeable.

I am always disappointed with the 7rem mag with the velocities it gives. I currently load for 3 of them and they are all slow. they do have shorter barrels but I would like to think that I could get over 3000fps in a 22" barrel with 140grn bullets and it just won't get there. I started loading for a new 280AI the other day using the same 140 grain AB and got velocities up to 3215fps with RL17 before pressure signs showed up. So my 280AI outruns all 3 7mag's by 200fps while burning less powder and has less recoil. I like the 280AI but it is not for everyone.

The last 7RM that I worked up loads for had a 24" barrel and hit 3200+ with 140's and 3000+ with 160s', all with RL22. I'd not think that losing 2" of barrel would not knock off 200fps, but I'm not chopping mine off to see..... (grin)

Yeah that is what I would expect to see with them as well. They are not my rifles so I don't care to much and the guys that have them like them so it is fine by me. It has however caused me pause in getting a 7mag for myself.

I used RL 22 and 19 in those as well just luck of the draw and getting slow barrels I guess. It can happen with any rifle/cartridge.

I totally agree with what is being mentioned here. I'm also a huge 280 fan, but I also see it as the little brother to the 7RM.

If you insist on really stoking the .280, you are really better off picking up a 7RM with a 24" pipe and having at it.

As a matter of fact, I'm doing that very thing and my Win featherweight .280 is in the middle of becoming even lighter and more handy. Then, I'll pick up a 7 mag of my choice..

If you are hunting in area's where shooting 300 to 400+ yards or so might be more than occasional, I'm opting for the 7RM every time...and they don't have to be heavy.

Recoil? The ones I have shot feel less than a stoked up 30-06.

CLB

Thank you!

@ keith: What was the exactly charge of Retumbo with the A-Max?

A friend of mine playing in the F-Class team has a new project with the 7 mm SAUM running. He offered me some of his 7 mm A-Max bullets for testing in my new 7 mm Remmy Demmy.

How do they perform on deer or are they just reserved for paper punching?

Interesting...I just posted sonething about that load a few weeks ago....good to hear others are haveing the same results as I. My load in the 7Wby is 77grns under the A-max for 3180 fps average,IIRC, 24 inch barrel and excellent accuracy.

3MOA up for a 300 yrd hold, and 10MOA up for a 6. Makes hitting at distance easy..

Yes, I have thoughts..
There is only one sensible answer to your question. Buy BOTH barrels, and be done with all of the heavy thinking.
I own, a 77 Rem Mag, and will never sell it.
I own, a 284 Win, and will keep it too. The 284 is so close to the 280 you can't find a space between them.
You really "NEED" both barrels...LMAO

heavywalker, what kind of rifles are those slow 7 mags?