Hello all,

Have any of you belted magnum shooters experienced issues with case bulge just above the belt? I've read this is a real issue with belted cartridges becuase after 2-3 loadings, the case will no longer fit in the chamber. This is supposedley a problem that a conventional FL resizing die won't take care of.

I just started reloading for my 270 Wby and have thus far not experienced any problems, however, I've only got 2 firings on my new brass. As expensive as Weatherby brass is, I sure hope to get more than 3 loadings from a case.

There is a company in Florida named Innovative Technoligies that sells a special collet resizing die specifically made for belted magnum cartridges. They claim it re-sizes the brass all the way to the top of the belt, elliminating the case bulge. In addition it will supposedley extend case life by many loading's. They want $89.00 for that darn thing. Does this sound like a gimmick or is case bulging really that big of an issue with belted cases?

Thanks everyone.

I have loaded belted mags for over 25yrs and have never had a problem with my regular dies. Usually neck size for the first 3-5 loadings and then PFL size. I have visited his web site and looked at his products. They look to be quality but until I actually have a problem with the buldge, I can't justify the purchase.Rick.

+1

With belted magnum cases you need to be very careful not to full length resize. If you move the shoulder of the case back several times you will split the case about the middle, and you'll be fishing half the case out of the chamber.

Can't say that I have ever seen any problem bulge above the case belt, but I only neck size.

Move the shoulder as little as possible and you will be fine with case life.

That's a solution to a problem that seldom exists.

I've loaded belted cases for about 50 years, neck sizing only after the first forming and partial full sizing on the fourth reload to slightly set the shoulder back, and have NEVER had a problem chambering a round. I don't know any competent reloader who has had the problem for which that die is sold. If there is a problem it may be from an improperly cut chamber which I suppose is possible in a factory rifle.

I agree that you don't need it; almost forty years of those awful belts and not a problem so described. Prep your cases; follow the directions with your dies and you 'll be ok.

I've always believed in working your casings as little as needed no matter what type of casing. I'm still using ones out of a lot of 100 I bought 20+ yrs ago.

"I've read this is a real issue with belted cartridges becuase after 2-3 loadings, the case will no longer fit in the chamber. This is supposedley a problem that a conventional FL resizing die won't take care of.

It happens. It's not frequent. IF/when it occurs the Innovative die will fix it but wait to see if you have a problem before pursuing a solution.

Learn to FL size off the shoulder or best case life, ignore the belt.

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PFL size and you wont have a problem. Loading for belted cases is no different than loading for nonbelted cases IME. I've seen the stretch pictured above from improper sizing in both belted and nonbelted cases.

loder

Larry,
I've read enough testimonials over the yrs stating that your product was the ONLY solution to their problem. It's convinced me that for some there is a need for it. Luckily I haven't had that problem...............................................yet.
But if I do it's good to know there's a fix out there for it.

Never had the problem myself and about 75% of my reloading has involved belted cases.

Is the OP a shill? Not many posts by either party and they're right here. Marketing?

I'd like to understand how it's even possible for a case to bulge in a properly cut chamber. The brass can expand just so much. It's restricted by the chamber. The brass spring back enables extraction. If the brass is so thin that it won't spring back the case is past it's useful stage anyway and even then I doubt the problem. If the chamber is out of round then maybe it would happen but then you have other problems. I get between 10 and 15 reloads out of my belted cases and those are usually lost to expanding primer pockets, not an inability to chamber. I've never seen it and never heard of it from any KNOWLEDGEABLE reloader or shooter.

Just for the heck of it, I just looked at my RCBS FL .300 win mag sizing die. Without meausuring it, it sure seems to me that it sizes all the way down to the belt - or close to it. Long ago I read about Larry Willis' belted sizing die and wondered whether or not if I must have this invaluable tool. Haven't found the need for it yet.

I'll agree with Bobski on the primer pocket issue. I haven't yet had to toss a case out because of loose primer pockets, but it's getting close on some.


Larry,

You do have a nice website with some good tips for folks, so I don't want to be too harsh.


fish head

"Is the OP a shill? Not many posts by either party and they're right here. Marketing?"

Most likely. I remember this scenario being played out at least twice before on other forums. New poster shows up, asks about the innovative die and Larry appears to give a pitch for his die.

Recently I signed up at another forum and posted a question...Larry sent me a spam PM directing me to his site.

Guess it keeps him off welfare.

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Hey Larry, good one!

Your entrepreneurial (sp?) spirit is admirable and I still wish I needed one of your dies. Thinking about buying one just to reward your persistence.

Still waiting for one for unbelted 06 cases cause I need one for my 280AI. Tight cut chamber so the die doesn't resize the case body.

Guess I'll send off for a custom body die when I get a

"However, I've discovered that writing about my products on forums is a bit more affordable than advertising."

- Innovative

Edited by Innovative (05/27/10 07:48 PM)


Dear Innovative:

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Rick Bin

I expand new 338's up to 358, re-size til the case just chambers, off of the shoulder.

I believe some have gone over 10 firings, perhaps more.

It is very true; the factories and gauge makers do not care what, if any, shoulder a belted mag case has. They headspace it off of the belt. So much so you only need one case gauge when rebarreling to any belted magnum (a good thing).

Doesn't mean you have to, even at the first firing.

A rimmed case is no different than a belted case in headspace function, regardless what angle the shoulder is. An actual full length size on a 22 Hornet, 44-40 or even the ubiquitous 30-30 toasts cases darn quick.

I've never seen an "angled" 30-30 case, I always though the shoulder was "round"

A shill??? Come on bobski, give me a break here. I'm relatively new to reloading and am a total neophyte when it comes to loading belted cases. In a quest to increase my reloading IQ, I've become a voracious reader/researcher of all things reloading. I just purchased my first rifle(Mark V Deluxe-270Wby Mag)that shoots a belted magnum and want to learn as much as possible about reloading for it. Just so happens I've come across the bulging case issue a few times and was curious. I thought since this site seems to have lots of knowledgable folks, I'd inquire about the case bulge issue. Got it???

Thanks for your concern though.

I think it is pretty bold for some poster to accuse a guy they don't know of running a scam because they never encountered the problem.

It exists.

The bulge is alive and well in some Norma brass.

I bought one of Innovative Technologies dies and it works quite well. He was out of dies at the time and I had to wait a bit for it but it was worth it.

You need to keep things clean and use Imperial sizing wax but it does the job.

No incipent head seperations so far either either.

I have a couple of .308 Norma magnums. One I bought and one was a gift from an older friend.

With the gift came dies and a bunch of Norma handloads/brass etc [Over 300 in all] as well as RCBS dies, new cases and three boxes of factory stuff.

Virtually all of the reloads had been loaded several times and had the bulge enough that they were getting hard to chamber in the gift, a P-14 by Winchester and essentially impossible to chamber in the other rifle, a Mauser even after FL resizing.

Both rifles get shot a lot and Norma brass is fairly expensive. It also has/had a rep for being a bit soft and having the primer pockets loosen up too. Brownell's sells a gadget to tighten those up but I haven't tried that.

The only other friend I have that has the problem shoots a .300 Weatherby FWIW.

I partial size the three belted magnums I work with a lot and the third one, a .338 has never exhibited the problem.

I have never had a case failure with the .338 either. I do toss the cases after ten reloads.

Nothing in your post clarifies anything and you don't state it occurs during reloading. You're compressing the outside of the case. It's pretty difficult to cause the case to bulge out if the sizing die is even remotely close to SAAMI specs; all the force is compressing in so how can it bulge out? It's not a balloon with pressure from the inside during sizing. I don't think I could do it if I tried and I'd like to see someone else do it whether a competent or incompetent reloader.



Cases don't stretch at the shoulder, they stretch in the body near the web as shown in your picture. And in sizing the shoulders compress, not stretch. That squeeze is what elongates necks and ultimately requires trimming.

That "stretch" is anywhere from .014" and I've seen the gap exceed .035" a time or two. That stretch is at the first firing when thinning of the body results just forward of the web.

If cases are bulging during reloading, the reloader doesn't know what he's doing. Just how can a case bulge forward of the belt while it's being sized?




Compare at what chamber? The rifle? Why not just measure? I'm equipped but you're double-talking here.



Your sarcasm is also overwhelming. If you're equating "friendliness" to skepticism, you're certainly right about at least ONE thing.

I've run into you on at least 3 sites where you've been laughed right out, and on one even strongly told to stay away. That's because where I've hung out there are usually MANY knowledgeable and competent reloaders. I've yet to hear one say that die is necessary or even useful, much less from someone whose knowledge and competency I respect.

Got what?

Just asking.

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I've seen your gauge. It has merit. I see no reason to change from my way which also works well and I'm comfortable with it.

Peace be with you.

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Sort of new here myself, so please someone tell me if I am out of line here?

But for a someone that just purchased their first rifle, and is "relatively new to reloading" sure has their .25-06 dialed in.



Just Saying.

Also, just curious, you have any links or references as it.... "Just so happens I've come across the bulging case issue a few times and was curious."

Just curious, getting back into reloading after several years away, have retired pails full of worn out belted brass, but have a hard time believing your question has much merit?

It has never been a huge problem.

Thanks

Kevin Salonek

I'm a big believer in neck sizing the belted cartridges, but never with full length dies. I have had serious problems with using FL dies to neck size, or PFL, as the shoulder was pushed forward making chambering difficult. When neck sizing, I use neck sizing dies.

Recently bought Lyman's collet neck sizer for the 300 Win Mag, and it's a dandy. It squeezes the neck around a mandrel. The only problem I had was that the stock mandrel wasn't sizing the necks small enough to hold the bullets firmly enough, so I bought one from Lyman that is about a thousandth smaller than stock. Works perfect.

I'll jump in and play the game. I have one of the innovative dies and like it and would buy another. I have a friend with a couple of very accurate 270 wby custom rifles. They get the "bulge" within 2 reloads with my hornady dies. The first night I got the innovative die we "reclaimed" over 100 cases. The die was paid for.
Before ebay quite selling brass I bought a ton of once fired 7mm mag win brass. I use the die on these before I convert them to 257 wby. I like the die cause it shrinks down the brass to new dimension so when I run them into the wby die the energy of the stroke of the press goes into forming the shoulder and neck cause there is virtually no resizing of the body. So, there (at least for me) is another great use of the die.
Not everyone needs it. I like having nice stuff and this is a great addition to my "tools" of reloading.....and Ican tell you overall I've spent alot LESS than many people I see.

This is un-real. I come here looking for info on reloading a belted magnum and end up with a couple of jack-azz's accusing me of trying to sell some guy's product I've never even heard of until a week ago!!!

Hey Kevin...you possess the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader. I didn't say the Mark V is my first rifle. I said it's my first rifle that shoots a belted magnum!!! I do have a 25-06 and I do load for it. I also load for my 220 Swift. Last time I checked, neither of those contain a belt. As for loading experience, I do have very little compared to most. I've loaded about 150 rounds between those 2 calibers. I would call that minimal experience, relatively speaking.

Have you and bobski perhaps forgotten to take your meds recently??? What a couple of azz wipes you two are!!

Speaking of farm animals:

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." George Bernard Shaw.

on ocasion I get that "click" when lifting the bolt handle the last little bit,and was told that the area just in front of the belt is the culprit,because the die cannot size this area all the way to the belt,I never get the "click with new brass usally with 2nd and third firing's,both of my 300 win mags experience this problem,I'm sure I'm not the only person to experience this, Idea's

Gotcha!

Thanks!

As the larger point, as Fan1 suggested, doing a search as to how often bulging belted cases comes up on the web.

What is the chance that someone brings up the problem, most do not believe that it's that huge an issue, and someone else comes along with the solution?

It's funny reading when you get to the point where site owners give warning about marketing!

Back in the day, early 70's, reloading with my Grandpa, there was not a lot of equipment available. Now we are very fortunate that some will take on issues, however frequent the problems are, and manufacture solutions.

I for one will go for more of a direct approach, it seems more honest.

Kevin

How did you guys ever advance from shooting muzzle loaders?

- Innovative

Is that like prison sex?


The more you fight it, the more it hurts.

Stop fighting, relax a little bit and it won't hurt so bad.

You might even get to where you like it.


Does this apply here?



fish head

When they gots too heavy to carry when you tie a sharp rock to the end of them!

And some them critters, however so tasty, ducks when you swing the other end at them.

Ever conciser a video describing and using the die?

My comprehension is not that good?

Hi,
I have been a handloader for 30+ years. My favorite rifle a 375 H&H with it�s belted cartridges have never given me any problems. It is a myth IMO that belted cartridges give a shooter/handloader problems.
Maybe they are just considered "old fashioned" and the manufacturers need to sell new and more guns (with non-belted cartridges).
How many owners and longtime users complain about this belt? Not many.

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"Why do some get so freaked out?"

Larry, if some folks admitted they don't already know every thing it would hurt their self image, you know?

Personally, I find all the pontificating that "If I don't need it, no one needs it" to be amusing!

Thanks to all who have given their input concerning my original question without the personal attacks and accusations. I think for the moment, I'm going to keep using a combo of neck and full length sizing dies and see how it works out.Seems the majority haven't had too many issues with case bulge.

Joe

Still wondering if the Collet die cures any of my symptoms,anyone else ever get the "click"?

An advertisment????

My cases bulge, they go in the scrap bucket. Period.

No way in hell will a die of any type correct the web seperation shown.

I used to own a .340 Weatherby, hated and I mean hated the Norma brass....for several reasons. One being the weakness above the web.

I say it is bogus to try. I don't want escaped gases in my face/eye. Nor do I want a bolt there.

I have enjoyed the rifle. I have never ever seen a reason for a belt on a case. It headspaces on the belt and not the shoulder. Sloppy, and it is NOT smooth feeding.

I sold the Weatherby and will never by another belted round again. Nor will I use Norma brass.

All cases will seperate if fired too many times. More pressure is exerted on the case when firing than any type of die can counter after the fact.

The more the brass is formed/reformed...the weaker it will be, not taking into account the heat and pressure of firing.

Kevin

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No, I feel you are wrong.

Are you a site sponser???

A case bulge above the web is trash. And a sign of a pending seperation.

A case bulge above the web is thin there...you're left handed miracle widget will NOT correct it.

Those new to reloading might buy it, and get their faces cut from the gas of a case blow out/seperation because of dishonest marketing. Or they may lose an eye.

I say you are marketing a hazard.

The bulge comes from the chamber pressure during firing, not another manufacturers product.

Your "fix" is not safe.

As far as the number of satisfied customers.....I am searching.

The results??? Well.....not good.

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From a user of the innovative die...which works wonderfully....I can see Kevin is one of those guys who doesn't use a product but knows everything about how it works. Best thing is to ignore people like that. I especially like the "lambasting" of Norma brass. One would have to wonder why weatherby has them make all their brass. I'm glad Kevin sold his weatherby....I love ALL of mine.

Interesting!

When I feel pressure or have a case that does not chamber or eject real well it's a good one to pay attention to.

Learned a long time ago to run 'everything' through the chamber after resizing.

I missed a huge buck years ago, tapped a tree when following this ol-buck through the brush, seen it when I pulled the trigger, heart pounding so hard I could feel it. Cambering the second round and drilling this buck would have been easy, he was glaring at the tree I just shot! But for the life of me that second would not chamber, bolt would only close about half-way down, and trying to crank that one out, it stuck in the chamber, ,rats! Long slow embarrassed walk back to camp to try a cleaning rod down the bore, lucky it worked.

I can feel a case that will measure .514" in front of the belt, .515" and your really asking for trouble.

My reloading press procedure may be a little on the side of dangerous, if I feel a tight case I lift the handle just enough to turn the case 180 deg. , and re-resize it. I have also tried heavy chassis-grease on the case to get a little more squeeze from the die, bad idea I am now thinking!

Taking a random case from the 'no-go-hunting' pile, I took it to a belt-grinder and ground it in half.

Knew what I would find, but had to see......



The case look thinner then in the picture.

I would not want the ability to make this one fit, glad to have found this site to share ideas!

Talk is talk, but brass is cheap!

Case thinning doesn't come from the bulge...it happens naturally with the number of times it's fired. The bulge gets closer and closer to happening with the number of times resized. I have many guns that I DON'T use the collet die on and they thin badly after about 5-7 full power load/sizings.
The purpose of the collet die is to make sure you can get to the 5-7 sizings and get full use out of your brass. Many don't need the die. I reload for a few guns that do. And, as noted in my earlier post it is a real nice tool to use when converting cases to other cartridges.
Like 7 mag to 270 wby or 257 wby.
FWIW--I've also seen the bulge when taking non belted brass fired 5 times and fl sized in one gun then trying in another...it may not chamber in a tighter chambered gun.

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I think you missed an oppertunity here to educate shooters in headspace, how to set up their dies, and exactly why your dies work in eliminating the bulge, and therefor help expand your business.

NO die can eliminate case stretch, and it can`t be fixed once it happenes, but proper die setup for case/chamber dimentions will help prolong case head seperation.

A lot of combined knowledge here on this site...lets all try to educate and learn for the betterment of everyone..

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Reguardless of any picture. When a case begins to seperate, it will seperate.

The case you show a cross section of, is getting on the thin end for me. Apparently you're collet die did not thicken it above the web.

No die on earth will thicken the brass above the web, unless it is melted into a billet and reformed completely.

Measuring the lenght of the chamber??? That is why I use a headspace gauge, and an AOL gauge to measure my ammo.

The brass still thins and weakens above the web. Does not matter, even when only neck sizing a case.....the case will thin just forward of the web.

NO collet dohicky will thicken the brass once it has started to thin.

Are you a site sponser??? Or just marketing this "product"??

Good question, or a site sponser???

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How about explaining how sizing causes a bulge in a case? You avoided that by stating it's too "technical" for us poor lame brained peasants. Or at least point to a site with such a technical explanation. Most everyone knows the source of incipient case separation, but the bulge?

The rest of the stuff deals with your gauge that was certainly not a topic of this thread. Incidentally, the Stoney Point/Hornady tool is handier than your gauge, easier to use, and I'd venture to say is owned by the vast majority of serious, competent reloaders on this site.

Maybe I'll get in trouble but I'll try an answer it. If you have either a "loose chamber" or a "tight die" (or a combo of both) you can get the problem.
I'm sure you know that no normal die goes all the way to the belt. Bob...I know you are a good reloader and have "good guns" and possibly great dies. I do alot of reloading for other people..Stupid of me I know....but I do.
It all comes down to about .0005 above the belt. It can stop you in your tracks. Especially when you mix brass with different guns. You've probably never bought used brass fired in another gun or swapped between several....or reformed I have. I've owned one of these for about 5 years. The die works.....if you haven't used it you really shouldn't downplay it. It simply returns brass to it's normal "virgin" dimensions. Brass prices have about doubled in the last 4 years. I don't think the cost of this die has changed much if at all! (And I don't think anyone anywhere said it "erases" case head separation.)
One last thought.....If I was shooting a browning blr or autoloader in mag calibers...300 win mag comes to mind....also 270 wby from years ago.....I would use this die over and over again in a heartbeat for a really good hunt.
FWIw..I also own the stoney point headspace gauge. I'd swap it in a heartbeat for the gauge he sells...keeps me from swapping bushings etc etc and leaves my caliper totally free for other things.

I've never inferred the die Willis sells doesn't work, I'm sure it does. He states there is a bulge in the brass caused by sizing, not shooting. I want to know more about the bulge that's supposed to be caused by a sizing operation that makes this die necessary as opposed to any other die.

I've never experienced the problem, EVER, in all the time I've loaded and reloaded belted cartridges. I've NEVER had any belted cartridge fail to chamber even in factory chambered rifles. I have used brass from other guns that has been "donated" and I've also used brass between guns of the same caliber interchangeably between my own guns. I don't do this often because of the differences that exist in chamber dimensions in barrels, even those chambered with the same reamer. Minor differences in bolt face to chamber shoulder always exist and dies have to be set individually.

As for dies, I have dies from virtually every manufacturer, even some now out of business or acquired by some of our present ones. They're dies just like you or any other reloader uses. At last count I had 42 dies sets from probably 8 or 10 different makers, although some are pistol dies and many are dies for non-belted cases. I've reloaded belted rounds since the 50's right after I started loading pistol and '06 and I've predominantly used belted rounds in the last 40 years without any bulge or failure to chamber. If indeed this bulge occurs I'd like to see it and try to understand how it is allegedly caused. I'm sure this die works, but is it the ONLY way to size and "save" a case which will not chamber? Or is a proper, intelligent and standard sizing procedure an alternative with a standard die from any manufacturer if the reloader understands the problem (if any) and knows what he's doing?

If folks want these toys to add to their collection of toys, I'm all for it. I have plenty of toys of my own and understand the motivation. My problem is seeing something misrepresented and sold to relative rookies as being "essential" for a "problem" I've never seen in all my years, when indeed it's not a problem. All the claims of users such as yourself leaves many questions; is conventional die set up properly to start in order for the case to headspace off the shoulder? Was the case fired in a different larger chamber without full sizing in a normal dies in order to reduce the body diameter near the belt for the new chamber? Was the case properly lubed to start? I'd just like to see ONE case that is bulged and won't chamber and me have a try at proper sizing to get it to function properly. Just one.

I too load for others, actually quite a few others, and several with more than one belted case in the same cartridge and I've never had a complaint about failure to chamber so is it in the die adjustment or sizing procedure where these alleged problems occur? Larry says it occurs in the sizing operation. I'd like to know how a case can be bulged while sizing. That is contrary to the laws of physics.

Kraky, we've bumped into each other a lot over the last 12 years or so but I don't recall your being that much into belted rounds so I don't have any "handle" on your experience. I do know of the several guys around here whose knowledge and experience I trust, not one has had a problem. If someone like Rick Smith, Ol' Joe, Brad, Dober, Mule Deer, Woods, Eremicus or a few others whose names don't immediately come to mind, popped up and had the problem and explained it to me, I'd accept it. Till then I believe some probably nice "toys" are being sold under the false pretense of a "problem" that really doesn't exist.

Edit: Oh, and if a bulge .0005" above the belt stops a case from chambering, you're doing something wrong. And how did that bulge get there to start? It's not from shooting but from sizing per an earlier post.

Well...then simply start with a piece of virgin belted mag brass. Start measuring above the belt and follow it for the life of the brass. You will see it quickly grows from about .509 to .512 or .513. If you get to .514/.515 your gonna see trouble. I've never seen any that didn't grow em to .512/.513. I have 6 wby and a 300 win mag in my inventory. My last trip to the range I was shooting some .257 wby that was loaded 7 times. I pushed the casings into the chamber all the way with my finger to see if they were getting snug. They were....I could feel slight resistance right by the belt..but I wouldn't have felt it with the bolt.
My comment about .0005 was meant to make one envision that when you get to the last .0005 of growth that will be what gets you. I've even seen a stuck case when I took some brass from my 30-06 and loaded it for a buddies 30-06. Mine a factory tikka and his a browning. Apparently his chamber was about .0005 under mine. This brass was nickel and had been fired in my gun 5x's. It had been sized with both a fl die and a redding body die. It still chambered in mine like butter.

Larry's die isn't for everyone.
I ABSOLUTELY had to get one because of my friends custom wby's. I won't name the rifle maker cause he is famous but almost all his guns get the bulge in 2 reloads. Not sure if that rifle maker still cuts chambers that way or not but we've save alot of money using Larry's die. Granted not everyone needs one. Usually when this comes up there are a few others like me who chime in and say they did. Today it looks like I'm the only one.

I have one for my 338WM and have never needed to use it...

But I have it just in case

I would expect a case to expand to the minimum SAAMI dimension of the chamber in which it was fired, that minimum being around .514" in most popular belted cartridges. It could be more since that is the minimum. But how does it bulge from the sizing operation?



How in the world can you tell where the resistance was by putting the case in the chamber with your fingers? Or even with the bolt? You can't tell where the interference, if any, could be unless you smoke the case and check the marks. You're just making conversation now. Depending on how your sizing die is set up that interference could easily be in the shoulder and you'd never know the difference.

If you set your FL die to partially full size and set the shoulder back to .001"-002" of shoulder clearance, brass springback both in firing and sizing could cause minimal interference and without smoking or using Marks-A-Lot you'd never know where that interference might be.

Your problems with the two '06's are irrelevant, and common, and certainly aren't persuasive.

Continue to mark me a skeptic.

I guess YOU should have been there. Since I use the stoney point tool to set headspace I know it wasn't there. The resistance was right before the belt hit the chamber.


Now you have me confused. You say it's common to not be able to swap non belted brass because of a bulge (high dimension) of the case but somehow belted brass would be immune??

Kraky, I thought you used the handy dandy tool that Larry is selling and not the Stoney Point??? You keep changing your stories. Incidentally, since you mentioned you dedicated your calipers to other functions and you like toys, why not buy another set of calipers and keep your handy Stoney Point set up on it? That cartridge would meet resistance when it's in the chamber so how in the world can you identify exactly where it meets that resistance. The shoulder, or even possibly the body near the shoulder could be the culprit.

I never used the word "bulge". If you neck size only, that wouldn't be a bulge, just an unsized body, which may or may not fit another chamber. If you're talking about an unsized body in a belted case and calling that a bulge, that's another story. I neck size all my cases, belted or unbelted, for 4 reloads at which point there usually IS slight interference in chambering. At that point I set shoulders back, either body die or FL die, set to put the shoulder back .001"-.002", and start the process all over. No difference for belted or non belted cases. They all start chambering with a bit of resistance at the third or fourth reload. Is that resistance what you are trying to call a bulge? A bulge to me is like the Battle of the Bulge in WWII, that's something that sticks out like a hernia.

You don't need to justify your purchases of these toys but to try to "sell" them under false pretenses is pitiful.

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Thanks for your professional courtesy.

I have loaded for a variety of belted cases over the years and like Bob have never had the bulge. WBY mags, H&H Mags, Win Mags and Rem Mags. Custom rifles and factory. If I am going on a hunt out of my local area I know my rounds will chamber not because I have run them into a special die but because I have fired all those cases at least twice in my rifles and know their history, I know if cases are getting tight to chamber and don't worry about not being able to chamber. I would not rely on cases that might have a questionable history. Why haven't the major die companies addressed the bulge? Also if there is a bulge on the outside of the case, there has to be the reverse going on inside the case. Now thining on the inside has been what leads to case head seperation and working metal back and forth will cause quicker failure. So you are taking this brass that has been fired maybe in different rifles an unknown number of times running it through the die and going on "really good hunt". Think I wil pass on that idea.
The headspace gauge looks interesting but I don't think you can change the set-up for a different caliber any faster than I can change a bushing and freeing up my calipers with the Stoney Point requires the twist of a knurled knob. If you are measuring headspace of the cases with the tool in question, your calipers are not being used at that moment. I can have a series or pistol cases or sockets on the bench to measure headspace differences in cases.
I am not saying his tools don't work or that there is no need for them. They appear to be well made and a lot of thought and enginering went into their production. Just that with over 20+ years of loading a variety of belted cases in various calibers and makes of rifles, I haven't had the bulge. If I run into the problem and I can't solve it with a die set change, I will order the die once I am sure the bulge outside does not have a corresponding thinning on the inside.Rick.

You explained that set-up very nicely Bobski...something I believe a lot of handloaders do not understand, and what can and cannot be done with their dies.

My RCBS dies for the 7 Wby Mag, set up now to bump the shoulder back 3 thous. comes down within 10 thous of the belt. (As close as I can measure anyway). So, a properly set up FL sizing die will completly size the entire piece of brass.

My thought was when the "bulge" was first mentioned, that in setting back the shoulder of the case being formed, the bulge would appear at the thin spot on the case. IME, insepent case seperation comes well up into the area included IN the die, so that thin spot should be ironed out, or sized, by that die.

Unless the die is not properly set up, or one is trying to partial neck/body size the case. Partial sizing of any case will allow it to increase in size below where the die stops, causing eventual hard chambering.

Case in point, no pun intended, was when I thought neck sizing my 308 stuff used for Hi-Power competion would yeild more 10`s...it didn`t, I noticed that after about 4-5 firings and necksizing only, I had a very difficult time loading the mag with 5 rounds during rapid fire strings..the brass had grown so much. I went back to FL sizing, just was not worth it.

And I agree, "bulge" is not the correct deffinition..sized or unsized is.

Efforts at ridicule accomplish nothing. You have yet to answer the question as to how that "bulge" you claim exists, gets there.

From Webster's Dictionary: "Bulge-localized swelling of a surface cause by pressure from within or below".

It's like trying to herd cats with you claiming I can't understand you technical description and remaining unresponsive. Give the explanation and try me!

Experience is nothing more than a series of mistakes. I've loaded a lot and made my share of them over many, many years probably starting before you were born. But then that's a rhetorical question as you really don't want to know!


Shooters and hunters don't necessarily equate to experience in reloading. And, best I recall, High Power shooting wasn't with belted cases. As for the other guy, I believe he was a military man, not likely doing much reloading during his tours. And what is his reloading experience? There are writers and there are writers. They all aren't gods, far from it, so that isn't at all persuasive. Anyone can throw names and money around for endorsements, but it doesn't add credibility if you can't explain and answer questions.


If you'd respond specifically to the questions instead of diverting and referring to your website, maybe you could teach us all something, which I doubt.

Your die may be quite good and a nice toy, I don't know, but trying to sell it as "essential" is just wrong.

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Thanks for your professional courtesy.

I bowed out before, but Kraky and you started back in.

And, NO, I don't enjoy arguments though I do have all the time in the world if the other parties are insistent and persistent. Just check any or all of my posts. Not many are argumentative, even in many cases when I know the other party is wrong.

Peace! Again!

Bobski...lighter note....3k, 200grn, .325 yet??

Still doing mine..

Thanks

Sold mine but I think 3k too much for the 200g out of 325.

You've misread...never said that.

You probably won't accept my explanation of why you haven't ever seen the "problem". You do alot of neck sizing. You don't fl size every time you fire a full power load. I really think if you do alot of loading and swapping of belted mag brass and were doing alot of fl sizing it would have shown it's face to you at one time or another.
I TOTALLY understand headspacing and am not mistaking it for the problem.
You refuse to agree that I have properly diagnosed the problem in my friends guns and have corrected it with the tool Larry sells. That's fine by me. I know it exists in these guns...I've seen it...measured it and fixed it. And, by the way...my friend has given me a bunch of his "out of spec" wby brass over the years. I've fixed it with the tool and loaded it happily ever after those cases in my guns without a hitch.
BTW...can you please show me where I've tried to "sell this tool" to anyone that doesn't need it?

Kraky, I thought it was you that said he had both items sold by Larry. If it wasn't, my apologies. I was left with the thought that the "someone" wasn't going to go to the trouble of attaching the Stoney Point tool to his calipers as they were essential for something else. My response was to that statement which apparently wasn't you. Seems ludicrous to spend $$ for that bench tool and not be willing to pay $20 for another set of calipers to dedicate to the Stoney Point if it was too much trouble to change. Again, my apologies if that wasn't you.

Maybe you did diagnose the problem correctly on your friends' gun. I just don't see how you did it when the obstruction couldn't be identified with the case almost all the way in the chamber. I don't know how to do that without blackening the case so I thought I could learn something.

I still don't understand a "bulge" claimed in these cases and I'd still welcome an explanation. Most belted cases have the belt down on the base below the web. See the pictures of two in this thread. If this "bulge" is in fact expansion and part of the case that is unsized just .0005" above the belt, where did that expansion come from? When the base starts expanding and I lose cases to expanding primer pockets I would then expect to be confronted with an inability to size a case so it would chamber. Larry says the problem is caused not in firing but in the sizing process. I'd like to know how? And why won't a regular full length die not size? If the base has expanded so much as to prevent that then is the case safe?

Did you ever try FL sizing those wasted cases to get the "bulge" out of there? I'd still like to understand where this bulge is and how it gets there without a lot of tap dancing around the subject.

In fact, forget it. I'm bored with the whole thing.

So make it headspace off the shoulder..belted cases feed fine, and Norma brass will last as long as anything..Not really on topic here, but this BS gets old, and often repeated by those that are guessing...

BS gets old??? Why does the U.S. Military NOT use any NORMA brass???? Simple, too soft and too thick.

Belted cases do not feed as smooth as non belted cases. Ever.

Guessing???

Yeah, right.

Just guessing.

I have reloaded a fair bit for belted mags. The only problems I have ran into is the case stretching or thinning just above the belt. The only fix for this is to re-chamber the gun using a reamer cut to the dimensions of the brass your using.
Not once have I ran into bulging of any kind.

IME there are slightly large chambers and tight chambers, then there are dies with interior dimensions that are slightly larger than others. This is a a case fired in a factory chamber (Steyr 30-06)


a perfectly natural and not unusual bulge. The chamber is a little large and the case bulges above the solid part of the case head. The Redding Body Die does not get rid of the bulge but all cases chamber just fine after sizing. I'll have to measure some.

This is a pic of a tight chamber 280AI load that has been fired twice


the Redding Body die does not touch the case body and it grows until it gets a little tight. If the Innovative die worked on unbelted cases I'd try one out.

This is my 300 win mag factory chamber (Beretta Mato). This case has been fired 5 times and I have used cases for appox 10 firings. After firing the case grows to a little less than .515"


after sizing the body die takes it down to a little more than .513"


and the cases have all chambered easily (as long as I push the shoulder back enough). This is typical of all I have loaded for.

Now I never switch brass between guns but I would imagine that if I tried to use this 300 win mag brass in another chamber that was slightly smaller then the case body sizing and really the springback would make chambering difficult. However since there is probably some springback on this case I would surmise that the Redding Body Die takes the case body down to a smaller diameter than .513". So if the other chamber was at .513" then the die might work on those also. I reload for 9 different 300 win mags and insist on having the gun on my bench when I reload. None have a bulge problem.

I suppose if you had a tight chambered belted magnum chamber (either because of a worn out factory reamer or a custom reamed chamber that was tight) then you might need this collet.

Hey Woods, great illustration and presentation as usual.

I'm bored with this subject now but in a couple of PM's I received I speculated exactly as you have illustrated. But the problem is that the "huckster" stated the "bulge" occurs not while shooting but while sizing. Firstly, that to me isn't a bulge in the usually accepted sense, just an unsized part of the case. He also said the explanation was "too technical" to go into here so I'm guessing this is not what he alleges, but since he refused to answer that question I really don't know.

I suppose it's being "sold" in much the same fashion as the small base dies which are made by several manufacturers for unbelted cases and for use on semi autos. Strangely, I loaded for Garands years ago for some competition shooting and I never had the need for a small based die there either.

As I mentioned to one of the PM's, I've had occasion to get "bad" dies because of the disparity in their dimensions with the chamber of the rifle. Still within SAAMI tolerances but not mating well with the rifle. When I had the problem I returned the dies for replacement and was admonished it was the "last" return for that die as they couldn't guarantee the fit because just of what you stated, disparity and wear on reamers. Replacements worked fine as I recall. I remember specifically getting replacements from RCBS, Lyman and Hornady. RCBS also mentioned that occasional warping during the heat treating process could also be a problem.

Thanks, and I'm out of here permanently now but did want to acknowledge your post and explanation, with which I agree.

What a fantastic site!

Very glad I found you guys!

Sharing is what it's about.

Anyone see any problems with this possible solution for just a standard die? (As I do get a few plus-size cases from range-brass)

Mentioning that I tried chassis grease to get a little more out of a set of dies, very limited success. This was back in the day when the cost of baby diapers dipped into shooting supply funds. Chassis grease is designed to have a measurable film thickness, but it was just not enough for some of those few cases that don't FL-size.

Just tinkering with a few that I would just otherwise scrap, brass is cheep. I got the grease idea to work, with a little help.

If I may?

My 7MM-RM does not enjoy brass @ .515 , .514 it is a little fickle. (I am working with mixed lot of about 250 7MM-RM Winchester that came from about 5000# of range sweepings,sorted only for the Winchester stamp)I will be using all that are usable for my own use, running into a few that don't chamber well after FL-resizing......



Cutting a piece of paper to wrap the greased brass, grease the paper, and run it through.



It takes just a few moments, experimenting with the paper height and thickness, it can be made to work.



From a heavy .515 - a light .512 , unless anyone can point out something I am missing, I am thinking these might be worth a try?

Thanks!

Kevin

Great pics Kevin

Something to think about and if Larry doesn't mind I'll call it - innovative thinking!