Rather than thread jack, I thought I would start a new one. JB's comment in another thread about today's 150 grain bullets doing everything needed in a 30-06 has me wondering: If 150's do all that can be expected from a 30-06 for most hunting, then why not just shoot the 150's in a .308? Can't you get within 100 fps or so with 150's in what should be a slightly smaller, lighter, and theoretically more inherently accurate rifle; while also burning less powder?

I am curious, because I always thought the advantage of a 30-06 was with heavier and longer bullets. If those heavier and longer bullets don't really have much advantage over today's 150's for the majority of hunting, then I would have to admit that I no longer see much advantage of a 30-06 over a .308.

It was always my understanding that a 30-06 with 180's was a step up over a .308 for elk or moose sized game, but JB's statement has me wondering...

There's a reason I use a 223AI for the deer hunting I do today that I did with a 30/06 20 years ago.

The 30/06 is longer though, and that can matter...

I've been a 165 gn guy myself, for the most part in the 06. Regardless, the 250 to 300 fps gained over the 308 is reason enough for me to stay with the 06. Depends on the terrain you're hunting though, I guess.

I didn't read the thread, but I would guess that JB was referring to Barnes X and their ilk when he said that about the 30-06.

A 180gr lead core is still preferrable to a 150gr for bucking the wind and penetrating quartering shots on elk.

I guess I should have clarified that I understand he was probably referring to bullets like the Barnes, Scirocco, GMX, etc...

Developed my handloads for the .30-06 & .308 well before I had a chronograph. Was mildly amused some years later to discover that both rifles shoot a 165 gr Nosler to about 2750 fps...

Barely any difference between the .308 & .30-06 loads I commonly use.

Now, I do know that I could load the '06 hotter, and that it does better with heavy bullets, but I've long since settled on using those 165 gr loads for most of my hunting.

I think the 30-06 will always have a place. In the past it has been generally ( for a lot of people) preferable for elk with its heavier bullets. If as JB contends the newer 150's diminish this advantage then one could argue the new 180's and heavier in the 30-06 would make the 30 mags and 338 unnecessary too for even heavier game. The break line for most of us is elk which is a fairly common quarry in the west. Our next step up in the US is moose and or big bear which most of us will never hunt i.e. the reason to own a .30 bigger than the 308 win. is diminished for most of us. If I was an regular elk hunter though I would probably still have a 30-06 just my personal choice but since I might be lucky to have only 1 or 2 chances at a KY elk I can make do with my 308 or 270.

Drop the 150's and try shooting the 130 grain Barnes TTSX from your .308. 2900+ fps is easy, and they shoot flat as a laser beam.

Extreme caution when using a .308 with 165's. It'll make ya fart loud

And you'll need a bigger freezer

When you consider you can push a 150 grainer up to 3050fps in a 308 and a 178 HPBT well past 2700fps with some of the new powders like 2000MR, it really makes the 06 kinda obsolete, though I wont sell my model 70 anytime soon, its a very accurate 06. But id pick my 308 for a hunting job pretty much every time over my 06. So in my eyes the 06 has no advantage whatsoever over the 06, 308s ROCK!
This is a load of 47.5grs 2000MR with the 178HPBT Hornady, Im getting around 2750fps in my Rem SPSS.

Is that your own data, or was this published somewhere?

Here's a much better pic with Lapua brass, bullet seated out just off the lands.

Alliants 2011 Reloading manual, they dont have the same data online for some reason. Here's an example for the 175MK.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...ight=175&shellid=80&bulletid=251

Cant believe I cut the bullet weights off, bottom 3 are all 165, middle 5 are all 150s.

30.06 has more case capacity and the ability to shoot heavier bullets up to 220 grains, 250 grains if you have the specified twist in your rifle to handle them, if a person cares too?

the 308 tends to be more streamlined towards target/precision shooting rifles and cannot handle the heavier bullet weights.

That being said the newer bullet technology and powders I would feel pretty confident in shooting a 168TTSX or Partition at anything in N.A.

I have a 30.06 that shoots a 165 grain bullet at a slow 2680 fps but it has killed anything I put the bullet through. A 308 could surely match and or surpass this velocity.

Nothing wrong with the 308, and I'd have one if I didn't have the 30-06! I see some guys shoot their 308s as fast as I do my 06.

I'm curious for the guys running production 308s.. Any issues with mag box length vs getting the 155s to lands? Thanks!

BC of .350. Not too flat..(grin)

I don't need a 30/06 for most of my hunting.. but I'd still never be without one.. not having an 06 is like not saluting the flag when they play the national anthem....

the 308 on the other hand is a great case to make other cartridges from that are better in my opinion.. like the 243, 260 and 7/08....or the 338/06...

I love the old 30/30 round over a 308...

when I need less , I grab a 30/30... when I need more, I grab an 06... when I need a lot more.. I grab the 300 Win Mag..

I don't own a machine gun, so I don't need a higher cycle rate....

If I need flatter shooting, I grab my 260....

just never saw the need for a 308 in my life...

if I did have one, it would be heavy barreled, but short ( say 18 inches).. and knowing me.. my load would be shooting a 170 grain 30/30 bullet with a speed between 2200 to 2400 fps..with a 1 to 4 power scope on top...close to a 307 Win equiv...

I don't hate the round, I just don't need the round..

I can't get near the lands with magazine length cartridges in any of mine. Half MOA five shot groups aren't impossible though, even with the bullets jumping 1/8".

Oh well...thanks

Can't say I don't hate it exactly....because I might. But otherwise, I agree with what you said.

I shoot TTSX 130s in 308 and push them between about 2950 and 3100 depending on the rifle. That certainly shoots flat enough out to 300 and will handle anything I might ever need to kill. That said though, the 30-06 loaded with the same bullet push comparably hard hit 3150 to 3300. Not enough difference that Bambi is going to notice, but enough that I do.

But, here's the deal for those who think that the .308 is close enough to the 30-06... With LeverEvolution powder I worked up a Barnes 150 load starting at 33 grains and stopped when I got groups well under an inch at 2400 FPS. 33 was giving me just under 2200. Thats a pretty linear increase and it loos to me like I could get better than 2700 at 38.5 grains (max load) Think about what you would top out at with a Barnes 130 with either a rubber tip or a flat nose!

I have both and have hunted/killed with both. For my purposes I will never see a difference in the field. I don't see that as a bad thing.

I own and shoot both and have killed game with both.
Depending on what you want, you can shoot a heavier bullet at the same velocity, or heavier bullet period out of the '06.
Or you can shoot the lighter bullets faster. That means it's further out there when it stop expanding on game.
Or you can shoot the same bullet at the same velocity with less pressure.... some of us kinda like that too.
But the trade off is that the '06 kicks harder. Especially with heavier bullets.
I see the .308 as at it's best in a very heavy tactical rifle, or in a very light, short barreled, Mtn Rifle or even a Scout Rifle.
The '06 I see as a heavier, classic sporter with a 22-24 inch barrel, shooting 180-220 gr. bullets for those that like them. E

Part of the problem with this discussion is that the standard SAAMI pressure for the .308 is higher than for the .30-06. If loaded to the same pressures, the .30-06 is capable of about 6% more velocity with the same bullet weights.

If the .308 is capable of 3000 fps with a 150 (and it is, in a 24" barrel) then the .30-06 is capable of around 3150. This is exactly what I've found with the best powders, such as Ramshot Big Game. Whether or not that makes any real difference in the field is debatable, but it sure does turn the .30-06 into something very much like the .270 with 130's or .280 with 140's.

With some of today's 150's the .308 works real well on game much larger than deer. In 2008 my wife Eileen used the 150 Nosler E-Tip at about 2850 to take a bunch of African plains game up to a very large zebra with a .308 that was "handicapped" by a 21" barrel, with no problems.

Thank you for chiming in. I had hoped you would. I guess I didn't realize the '06 could get to 3150. Recently, I acquired a Winchester featherweight in 30-06- a rifle I had hoped to own as a kid. Tomorrow I am hoping to fire off my first batch of loads for it. For starters, I chose 180's. Your comments on the 150's have me interested. Happen to have any "magic" loads with the 150's like your 58 grains of Hunter for the 180's?

Oh, and I suppose I should keep 150's around 3100 with my 22" barrel? I do have a fairly reliable chronograph. And some Ramshot Big Game. Just need to pick a 150 to try out...

Ramshot's fastest data is with the 150 TSX, and lists 3038 with 60.7 grains at just under 58,000 psi. They also list 3006 fps with the 150-grain Hornady SST with 59.2 grains at a little over 58,000 psi.

A lot depends on the bullet. I wouldn't try to push things much beyond 3000 psi with a Swift bullet, for instance, because they tend to produce more pressure. But there's no reason not to get 3050+ with the 150 TSX in a 22" barrel.

Now I feel rather lazy. I could have very well looked that up on my own. I do appreciate you taking the time to supply the info, though. What I meant was that I seem to remember you mentioning 58 grains of Hunter shooting well with 180's in about any 30-06 you have tried it in, and wondered if you had found something similar with Big Game and 150's. No big deal. I'll just load up a ladder working my way towards Ramshot's published max, and see how it goes.

Thanks again for the input. I'm moving to Denver at the end of the month, and have a lot of learning to do in regards to western hunting with rifles.

For me to choose a .308 over a 30-06 it would have to be on a rifle where SA vs LA mattered. A good example is the Browning BLR, their short action models fit me perfectly, the long action ones however feel too big and akward.

Of course I'll never be without a 30/06.

In my Rem SPSS I have 155AMAXs off the lands quite a bit, 2.850"oal, and they shoot like this. 2 5 shot groups @300yds, 47grs RE15.

yeah, being without an 06, is like voting for Obama... again..

it's unAmerican...

Agreed.

Perhaps another element. In some areas, anyplace that sells ammo carries 30-06. I'm wondering, in places like Alaska, where 30-06 is one of the very basic cartridges, can you find 308 as easily as 30-06, or is the 30-06 more dominant? I'm surmising that if 30-06 ammo is more readily available up there, and there are brownies about, the 30-06 might be the wiser choice.

Finding that I just don't care for the 308 win. Already sold 2 of mine in the last couple of weeks.....

.30-06 has a better selection of factory ammo available, along w/ a wider selection of bullet weights.

............. .....Look at the three cartridges I have, and guess who "I`M NOT" voting for.....

"Finding that I just don't care for the 308 win. Already sold 2 of mine in the last couple of weeks....."

And I just keep wearing out barrels on mine every few years... Dang.

I truly like both cartridges.

The only way I would take the 308 over the 06 is if I was looking for a short action, I was building a heavy tactical rifle, or I was recoil shy.

I guess that would be one advantage of the 30-06. You can seat those 155's long to lands in a production rifle. But like you mentioned, getting crazy good groups with the jump ain't hard to do.

Wearing out barrels in ANY rifle is a great thing!!! Means you are shooting more than most.

I like both, though in bolt action rifles do tend to perfer the 30-06 simply for its ability to shoot heavier bullets better. I'm slowly becoming a heavy for caliber guy, for now at least.

Variety is the spice of life and I would love to put a heavy barreled 'tatical' 308 and a nice light 'mountian' rifle in 308 in my safe to go along with my 30-06s

I like them both.

The advantage (to me) of the 30-06 is about 20% more case volume, and a generous mag length in the Rem700. That gives plenty of leeway regarding powder choices and OAL.

The 308 is no slouch with the heavies, with modern powders. RL17 under 200+gr bullets works very well in the 308.

I see more serious deer hunters use a .308 over the '06 but also see more serious big game hunters select the '06 so confidence can be built through tailored bullet weights for different sized game.

In reality, I don't thing anyone will kill enough animals with each to notice much between them. I would expect the rifle choice would be the determining factor for most people.

I appreciate the attributes of the. 308 but prefer the. 30/06.

JW

In countries that do not have the historical military attachment to the 30-06, the .308 might be a little more popular. It is pretty much a tie, anyway. I don't think that the 30-06 enjoys the automatic superior position assumed in the USA in the former British commonwealth for instance.
Using factory loads, I don't think there is any real advantage in the field of one over the other, is is really more of an emotional comfort choice than a technical efficiency choice.

You can argue a wider selection of bullet weights, but, with today's modern premium bullets that doesn't mean much.
As to availiable ammo, cheap surplus practice ammo is abundant for the .308. some of it even shoots pretty well. Not nearly as availiable in the '06.
As to factory ammo in remote places, the .308, from what I've seen, is stocked just like '06, .270 and .30-30 ammo. E

30/06
Resale
Slightly more powerful
More options in shelf ammo

308
Less recoil
Inherently more accurate
Tactical options

There is a turd in hell waiting to be smoked!���.

You'd be better off with a heavy barreled tactical in 300 wsm ....trust me...

All B.S....

I'll be waiting, maybe we could smoke them together....

We run our 308 rifles with 208 Amax bullets out past 1000 with good success so the weight issue isn't really an issue at all. 99% of game shot with either cartridge will never know the difference if the bullet is put where it needs to be put. That being said, if I were hunting something big and nasty I wouldn't mind the extra fps the 06 gives. You can't go wrong either way.

I don't believe killing beyond the range of any bullet on an animal that has tenacity and the "will" to live. That range is generally within 250 yds and more to my liking if within 100yds.
Accuracies of the two are moot so I'd stick with my long favored aught six.

If asked what cartridge to buy I'd say the .30-06, many around me like the .308 more due to its barrel/action weight....makes sense. But I am a believer of heavy bullets and that leans towards the aught six.

I don't have enough "experience" in shooting moose or grizz with my .308 with the 165 or 150 grain whatevers, the "bastard" child stays hidden. Just my .02

+1 but its ...actually 3100+ in A 22" barrel

What he said - and no offense to Steven CO, but there is not a 250-300 fps difference. A .308 win hand loader these days can easily best most factory 30-06 loads with today's powders - especially the newer ones like 2000MR or Hodgdon's CFE223, and that includes loading up to 180 gr bullets. Note this is handload versus factory load. Acknowledge there is a good 100 fps or so edge available still for the 30-06 handloader. Personally prefer the less powder, less recoil option.