I have enjoyed reading posts on this forum for a while, but never had a reason to post until now. Just joined to see if anyone has had similar results with this combo. I honestly thought something was wrong with my chrono, but the .270 loads I shot the same day were right where they should be on the chrono. I loaded six 120 grain ttsx behind 45.9 grains of cfe 223.(Max load for 120 grain Nosler BT on Hodgdon site) Rifle is an x-bolt with a 22" barrel. On the first shot, I saw 3364 on the chrono and just thought I got bad reading. The next five were between 3310 an 3355. 3340 avg!? Five shot into about an inch and the sixth made the group 1.5". The brass had slight primer flattening, no problems with bolt lift. I am going to shoot some more when the weather cools down, but for now just wondering if anybody else has tried this combo.
Jeff
I think you may have a typo...........Hodgdon list 49.5 gr as max load, not 45.9 gr.
I use it in my 223 & it's very, very good.............I'll have to try it in the 7-08.
MM
Thanks, you are correct, its my dyslexia kicking ni
That's fast!!!....I only get 3k with RL-15. I'll have to try it too.
Be careful with the cfe powder. I've seen posts on other forums by very avid shooters that have reached max with pressure signs BEFORE the max loads they publish. Also....high temps with the powder seems to raise heck too.
If you study this game of reloading long enough you'll find that you can reach 70-74k pressure with some brass and not show common pressure signs.
This stuff is made by the outfit in florida....I think they go by the name St Marks or something. They are the same people that brought out alliants mr4000 which was supposed to take the bigger magnums to a whole new level. It had no magic whatsoever.
Quickload thinks the fastest you can go at 65k pressure with a 120 and a 22" barrel is about 3200 fps. Even If we give you a little "magic" of about 50 fps you are still treading in the 70k pressure range.
When MR2000 came out it was THE POWDER for the 308. It had a magic factor of about 50 fps over all other powders via pressure testing equipment.
NOt trying to be a critic here.....just applying current physics as we know them.
The 120TTSX seems to generate higher pressure than the 120NBT. I load about a grain less of H4895 under the TTSX for the same velocity as my NBT load.
3300+ with a 120 of any kind in a 7-08 is HOT!
Kraky, I dont doubt anything you said. Good idea to plug in velocity and "work backwards" to estimate pressure. I have heard of quickload but never used it. Do you know how it deals with variable parameters such as friction and gas seal, etc? Just curious. I will probably back it down .5 - 1 grain and check accuracy. Its not like I need 3340 fps for deer. hell, thats more energy than a factory 30-06 150gr load!
Jeff
The 120TTSX seems to generate higher pressure than the 120NBT. I load about a grain less of H4895 under the TTSX for the same velocity as my NBT load.
3300+ with a 120 of any kind in a 7-08 is HOT!
You Know, its funny, some of the Barnes tsx/ttsx published max loads call for more powder than a conventional bullet of the same weight on the hodgdon site, and some call for less.
I would think it would be one way or the other. Maybe bullet length comes into play. I have not quite figured out these copper bullets, but I like em!
I haven't tried CFE in my 7mm-08, but I only get about 3175 fps. with 50 gr. of Big Game and the 120 gr. TTSX and it looks a little hot in my cases. Just be careful. A word of caution; it is safer to start several grains under max and work up than starting at max. The velocity you are getting would scare me into backing down a bit. By the way, welcome to the campfire.
The 120TTSX seems to generate higher pressure than the 120NBT. I load about a grain less of H4895 under the TTSX for the same velocity as my NBT load.
3300+ with a 120 of any kind in a 7-08 is HOT!
You Know, its funny, some of the Barnes tsx/ttsx published max loads call for more powder than a conventional bullet of the same weight on the hodgdon site, and some call for less.
I would think it would be one way or the other. Maybe bullet length comes into play. I have not quite figured out these copper bullets, but I like em!
I use the Ballistic Tip and TTSX with the same powder charge. My chrono'd velocity is usually within 50 fps. If the pressure is much different, it certainly does not show.
I've had quickload for many years and really like it. If you love the sport of reloading and have $150 to throw at it you will not be disappointed in buying it. I used it all the time for developing loads for myself and friends. It isn't perfect but I find it far more accurate than todays watered down manuals.
Heres my thoughts on you 7-08 load.
I think there is a combo of reduced case capacity with your brass and heat causing that speed. Rem cases in my 308 have less capacity than win and because they are thicker they are tougher and don't show pressure as easily as win....and CERTAINLY not as ez as fed brass. If you are using rem that would be the start of the situation.
CFE is not in quickloads library yet. So I use a "like" powder and have quickload adjust case capacity to match the actual chrono'd results. After doing that with RE17 which ql thinks is one of the top powders for that case....here are the results. NOw if the cfe is heat sensitive you may see a grain difference between the 95 degrees you have now and 30 d3egree hunting temps.
But all things considered....this is pretty close to what I think happened in your testing. BTW...the 120 bt is an interesting bullet. I've been told they make it from the jacket of the 140bt. BUT, they use the bottom of the jacket from the 140 which is tapered. So if what I hear is right the jacket at the tip of the 120 is thick....like at the tip it would be about as thick as the jacket of the 140 at the mid section. Making the 120 a very tough bt. Others have used these on big game with surprising success. One guy even on several moose. Here's my chart on theoretical steps based on your conditions.
Cartridge : 7 mm-08 Rem.
Bullet : .284, 120, Nosler BalTip 28120
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch or 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 99 44.55 2902 2244 50267 9489 95.9 1.057
-09.0 100 45.05 2936 2297 52114 9590 96.4 1.040 ! Near Maximum !
-08.0 101 45.54 2970 2351 54034 9688 96.9 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
-07.0 102 46.04 3004 2405 56034 9781 97.3 1.006 ! Near Maximum !
-06.0 103 46.53 3039 2460 58118 9868 97.7 0.990 ! Near Maximum !
-05.0 104 47.03 3073 2516 60289 9951 98.0 0.974 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0 105 47.52 3107 2573 62552 10029 98.4 0.958 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.0 107 48.02 3141 2630 64918 10101 98.7 0.943 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 108 48.51 3176 2687 67384 10168 98.9 0.928 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0 109 49.01 3210 2746 69959 10229 99.2 0.913 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 110 49.50 3244 2804 72652 10285 99.4 0.898 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 111 50.00 3278 2864 75467 10334 99.6 0.884 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 112 50.49 3312 2924 78411 10377 99.7 0.869 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 113 50.99 3347 2984 81493 10414 99.8 0.855 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 114 51.48 3381 3045 84725 10444 99.9 0.842 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 115 51.98 3415 3107 88112 10468 100.0 0.828 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 110 49.50 3383 3050 86816 9875 100.0 0.836 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 110 49.50 3045 2470 59832 10143 94.2 0.980 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Scott
I have kind of settled on the fact that about a grain less with a TTSX than a standard bullet. On a lot of rifles that is about 50fps, so your results kind of back up mine. In other words, if you drop back a grain on powder, I'll bet your two loads are within 10 fps. I do believe there is no magic, after loading my own for 40+ years. 3300 fps with a 7-08 with a 120 sounds too fast to me.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for that. It looks like quickload is close to hodgdons site. They say 3151 fps for a max pressure load. 200 fps magic? Just kidding. I Will Use Win. brass for the next loads and drop the charge a little and see how the brass comes out.
Jeff
If you use a handheld priming tool where you get the feel of how hard they seat I predict you will find the primers go in a little easier next time on that brass.
BTW....was the brass remington??
Rem is some tough stuff in the 308 based cartridge.
Had it been Federal those primer pockets would definately be talking to you on the seating.
sell your 7mm-08 and build a 7mmWSM, boom you can send them super fast.
Kraky111, could you run the same QL profile but with the 120 TTSX please?
Thanks, Jason.
for refrence, I push 120 tsx at close to 3400 with my 7mm RSAUM...with moly
3340 out of a 7mm-08? there are NO free lunches.
Jason....I changed things around with case capacity to match what he was actually getting with the chrono with the intent to show how much he'd most likely have to reduce charges to get back in the normal zone.
I'd be happy to work with you on your gun as best I can with quickload.
It would be best to take it out of the forum so if you would just pm me with what powders and chrono readings you are getting with the tsx....also let me know if your gun has any amount of freebore. Again....I'm not proclaiming "exact science" but I think I can make it better than "seat of the pants"!
It was, in fact Remington brass. 3rd firing. neck sized. Primed them last night. Only 1 was suspect. It had some initial tension and then slipped right in. The others felt normal.
Jeff
Noticed a couple guys here use the Nosler BT. They are on sale at Cabelas for 14.39/50 and free shippingif you have the club card
Jeff
Thanks very much for the offer Kraky, but I am fairly comfortable with my loads in my rifle. I was mainly interested in what QL thinks of the difference in the pressure characteristics of the 120TTSX vs 120NBT. It seems my experience of the TTSX generatign higher velocity isn't a univeral finding.
Thanks, Jason.
Jason you've got it figured out correctly. I'm surprised at how many reloaders think that if a bullet makes more speed with a like charge it is "slipperier" and thus makes less pressure.
I've played around with quite a few barnes over the years. From well before the tsx's even came out. With the tsx's I've found they can make identical speed to cup and core, make a little less, and make a little more.
RE quickloads ability to work with this it does have a higher start pressure that can be dialed in with mon bullets. It also knows how long every bullet is that is in its "library" and it dials in more pressure to the predictions for longer bullets. In my book it is a bit oversensitive to the longer bullets.
Just curious if you are giving that ttsx at least .050" jump like recomended. If not...and some people don't, I could see that contributing.
I just loaded a batch of 4 different test loads of the 145lrx for a friends 7-08. Barnes told me to use 150 tsx data as it is a long bullet. I cross ref'd ql and load manuals quite a bit for my guesses on the 4 test loads. They won't be weanie but they shouldn't be naughty either. The chrono and shell casings hopefully will clearly be the final judge.
Thanks. Yes, my TTSX load does jump by at least 50 thou. My chamber has a long throat so all the 120s jump a long way. Both the TTSX and NBT shoot very well though.
I'll be interested to hear your results with the LRX.
Just got back from the range. Decreased 1 grain to 48.5 and velocity was at 3275, 3275, 3280, and 2 chronograph errors
Used Win. brass, slight tension on bolt lift, but these cases have been fired 3 times and only neck sized, and some were tight going in. Primers looked good. Accuracy was about the same 5 in about an inch. Lets assume this load is still a little hot at 80-85 degrees. As this will be my hunting load, any opinions on how a 50 degree temp drop would affect it. 75 fps?
BTW - yeah, I know Im a dummy for not starting lower and working up. But like I said earlier, there were no pressure signs.
You'll probably drop 1 fps per degree. Maybe the 85 degree stuff is helping spike the powder even more and that's just one trait of the powder. I would have thought win brass would have been equal to a grain of powder.
For fun take a fired win case and a fired rem case and fill them both with a fine gunpowder to the top of the case. (I find this easier than monkeying with water). Actually your cfe will probably be just fine to try. Then weigh the charges. I would expect the win will hold 1-1.5 grains more. Also just for giggles weigh the brass and compare rem to win.
I also now see how dumb I was modifying the first chart to 3240 fps.....you were crankin 3340 YIKES. That stuff is acting like I4895 without any changes to case capacity. Heres a new chart.
Maybe I've fubared this to the point of no credibility!! According to the chart....if the case capacity is a match between the rem and win that would explain your speed drop.
Any chance that ammo today was laying in the sun getting hot?
Cartridge : 7 mm-08 Rem.
Bullet : .284, 120, Nosler BalTip 28120
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch or 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder : ? IMR 4895 ?, Temperature: 85 �F
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 98 44.56 3037 2458 55797 9699 99.7 1.011 ! Near Maximum !
-09.0 99 45.05 3068 2508 57716 9757 99.9 0.996 ! Near Maximum !
-08.0 100 45.55 3099 2558 59702 9810 99.9 0.981 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-07.0 101 46.04 3129 2609 61760 9857 100.0 0.966 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0 102 46.54 3160 2660 63894 9898 100.0 0.952 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-05.0 103 47.03 3190 2711 66097 9936 100.0 0.938 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0 105 47.53 3220 2762 68397 9973 100.0 0.924 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.0 106 48.02 3250 2814 70779 10010 100.0 0.911 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 107 48.52 3280 2866 73246 10045 100.0 0.898 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0 108 49.01 3309 2918 75809 10079 100.0 0.885 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 109 49.51 3339 2970 78468 10113 100.0 0.872 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 110 50.01 3368 3023 81234 10145 100.0 0.860 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 111 50.50 3397 3075 84106 10177 100.0 0.847 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 112 51.00 3426 3128 87093 10207 100.0 0.835 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 113 51.49 3456 3182 90198 10237 100.0 0.824 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 114 51.99 3485 3235 93432 10265 100.0 0.812 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 109 49.51 3436 3145 93146 9732 100.0 0.819 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 109 49.51 3188 2709 64986 10531 99.1 0.943 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
OK - Win brass held 60.1 grains cfe, and Rem came in at 59.3
I cant weigh the brass because my little lee scale only goes up to 110 grains. I have been seating them at 2.81. I dont know if the .01" makes a difference in the calculations. The bench was under a big shadetree so the rounds should have been at ambient temp. I just loaded up 6 more in the Rem brass and dropped it to 48.1 grains. I am going to try to shoot them tomorrow a.m. while it is still cool and see what I get.
BTW I was also shooting some 110ttsx in my .270 using 53.1 gr. cfe @ 3300 fps. Best groups I ever shot. I really like this stuff. I wanted to try it in my rifles because I am sick of cleaning copper out, and it is supposed to help with fouling. Unfortunately, it does not seem to help much with that. Sure does shoot well though.
I'd say your two lots of brass are close enough in capacity to be almost meaningless....probably 20-25fps diff and that can happen from day to day with the chrono pretty ez.
Now...I'm glad you reported on the cfe in the 270. I picked up a marlin 270 last winter and really like it for the $$$$. I wanted to try some 110 ttsx's but midway was out when I ordered but they did have some federal factory hyper velocity on a great sale so I picked up a box of them with an order. They were rated at 3400fps and in my 22" barrel did 3350....so their claim was on the money. Pretty good thermometer of a speed I don't want to excede during load development.
Now with the cfe powder it seems to be designed for the shorter cases. Sometimes these new powders kind of change their personality when you put them in a '06 based case. IE the leverevolution powder works great on 308 and 30-30 cases but seems to have no help in other bigger casings. So to see how my theory of it acting like i4895 in your 7-08 I put that charge into the 270 and a 110 bullet at 53.1 grains.....look what it comes up with..
Cartridge : .270 Win. (CIP)
Bullet : .277, 110, Hornady V-MAX 22720
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder : ? IMR 4895 ?, Temperature: 85 �F
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 84 47.79 3019 2226 46307 11228 99.5 1.088
-09.0 85 48.32 3049 2270 47723 11313 99.7 1.073
-08.0 86 48.85 3078 2314 49180 11394 99.8 1.059
-07.0 87 49.38 3107 2358 50680 11469 99.9 1.044
-06.0 88 49.91 3136 2403 52224 11539 100.0 1.030
-05.0 89 50.45 3165 2447 53815 11603 100.0 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 90 50.98 3194 2492 55452 11662 100.0 1.002 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 91 51.51 3222 2536 57138 11719 100.0 0.989 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 92 52.04 3251 2581 58874 11776 100.0 0.975 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 93 52.57 3279 2626 60662 11832 100.0 0.963 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 94 53.10 3307 2671 62503 11887 100.0 0.950 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 95 53.63 3335 2716 64401 11941 100.0 0.937 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 96 54.16 3363 2762 66357 11995 100.0 0.925 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 97 54.69 3390 2807 68372 12048 100.0 0.913 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 97 55.22 3418 2853 70451 12100 100.0 0.901 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 98 55.76 3445 2899 72590 12152 100.0 0.890 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 94 53.10 3411 2841 73673 11504 100.0 0.889 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 94 53.10 3150 2424 51965 12210 98.7 1.030
I think I said earlier that I have a pound of cfe sitting on my shelf.....I think you may have given me a thermometer of what I might expect from what you've done.
If I were you I'd still be looking at testing that 708 for accuracy down around 3175fps. And thats about 46.5 grains in this weather. Then in fall with colder weather you may add another grain to maintain that. Its your gun and your decision....at least I'd keep watching for more input on the chatrooms on what this powder is doing for others.
I appreciate all of your input. That chart seems very close. I also loaded at 53.6 and 54 grains cfe in 110 ttsx At those charges, velocity became erratic and 54 was definitely too hot. I read posts where guys using about 59 gr rl-17 to get 3500+ for 110 ttsx. Well, 57 gr. seemed too hot for my gun (rem 700 sps 24") and accuracy sucked. that load was about 3300 fps also if I remember right.
Jeff
CFE 223 has given me similar velocities in my wife's 7-08ai with 120 gr TTSX. I thought my chrony was lying too at first but other guns were reading as expected. First group (Fed 215 primers) of 3 bullets averaged 3301 fps, second group (BR-2) was 3342 fps. No pressure signs in either load. Interesting that the BR-2 was faster - it was also more accurate, just under an inch. I was also using the max load listed on Hodgdon's site. I will back down at least a grain before I shoot any more. This was with WW brass and temp in the 70s. It scoots 'em right along fo sho.
Just out of curiosity, what is your OAL? Mine have been at 2.81, but I have been considering seating them deeper.
This gun has a Wyatt's box and I have been seating them at 2.850".
Have any of you high speed light bullet guys done any of the Hexagonal Boron Nitride tricks to lower the peak pressures of these maximum CFE223 loads while letting the little pills zip on down the frictionless barrel a little bit faster?
It is a well documented trick, that hexagonal boron nitride powder tumbler impacted into a bullet surface coating. Hexagonal boron nitride was developed after Moly showed the ability to rust a barrel underneath the coating build up on the barrel steel as the varmint guys sure liked what Moly did apart from the rust under the coating issue.
I personally have sent 160 grain 7mm-08 rounds down a Savage barrel using the hexagonal boron nitride treatment and a book maximum compressed load of Reloader 19. But then I got old, and I really don't care for the kick given from such rounds for much any more ......
CFE223 sounds like a candidate for a nice little 120 grain round that will kick less and yet go quite a bit faster.
A lot has changed since this thread was started six years ago. As far as the TTSX creating more pressure than the same weight C & C bullet, I think that has proven not to be true. This was true with the old original X bullet, but Barnes started cutting rings into the bearing surface of the newer TSX and the even newer TTSX to reduce the bearing surface in the bore. This move pretty much changed the occurrence of higher pressure. I have used the same load in all my 7mm-08’s with the 120 gr. Nosler BT and the TTSX for several years with no apparent changes in pressure or chronograph readings. If anything, the TTSX is slightly, and I emphasize slightly, slower than the BT with all else being equal. Oldfeller, welcome to the Campfire. Lots of good stuff on here!
just tried some CFE223 with the Barnes 120gr TTSX, got 1/2" grou ps @ 100 yards and got 3351, 3357, 3361fps out of a 22" barrel, think I'll switch my deer load.
just tried some CFE223 with the Barnes 120gr TTSX, got 1/2" grou ps @ 100 yards and got 3351, 3357, 3361fps out of a 22" barrel, think I'll switch my deer load.
This is in a 7-08?
yes 7-08, I like the velocity spread
Any reason why are you trying to turn the .7-08 into a .280 Ackley?
Any reason why are you trying to turn the .7-08 into a .280 Ackley?
My thoughts too.
So if I use that powder in my 280 AI, it should run neck & neck with my 7 Wby.
Any reason why are you trying to turn the .7-08 into a .280 Ackley?
My thoughts too.
So if I use that powder in my 280 AI, it should run neck & neck with my 7 Wby.
maybe a STW