this morning i loaded up some 250gr hornady RN on top of 60gr of RL15. accuracy is just an inch. could probably be better but it was 88 degrees and i was sweatin my sack off and wasnt really shooting to my normal ability. my crony was in the shade, about 15 feet off the muzzle and i was reg. an average velocity of 2420fps from my 18.5" barrel. ive read enough from the guys on here who DO know that 2400fps w/ the whelen w/ a 250gr bullet is more then enough wallop. however i just cant get past wanting to achive the 2500/2550 mark w/ the 250's.

i was told that since i have a carbine length bbl that IMR3031 may yeild more velocity then r15 since its a slightly faster burning powder. does this seem right? also, i had some 250 horn. rn loaded w/ 54gr of IMR4064 that was reading around 2300fps and some 225gr nos. pt w/ 59.5gr of r15 at 2500fps.

also, would the extreme humidity and heat give false readings on my crono? thanks in advance for any input.

-Brandon

Brandon,
With the 18.5" barrel you are getting about what would expect with that load. I do get 2500-2550 with my 22" barreled whelen. Faster powders, IMO, will not get you there either. I have done a bunch of reloading for this cartridge and reloader 15 is the best I have found. With the shorter barrel you are losing at a minimum of 25 fps per inch and could be as high as 40fps per inch of barrel.

If you have the desire for flatter trajectories without losing any penetration, I can recommnd the Barnes 225 gr TSX. Use R15 with this bullet also and you will be over 2500fps.

Good shooting,
John

Long bearing surface on the 250gr RN makes it less than the best choice for high velocity as pressure is gonna be high, possibly dangerously high with spikes. The combo you are shooting may well be the primary reason Alliant reduceded their rec. max by over 10%.
The Hornady 250gr SP seems to be a little better behaved than the RN when you are pushing for max velocity.
It is worth considering BigBullets thoughts

I agree with both these gents and definitely do not agree with whomever pointed you towards faster powders for more speed in a short barrel, especially 3031.

I think Alliant has reduced their load for a number of reasons, but the burn rate of "plastic container" 15 is slightly quicker, and most sources bear this out.

Get past it or go to a lighter bullet.

I use 60gr of RL15 with a 225 gr TSX in my whelen, with around 2600 fps as average. RL15 has been the very accurate in my Whelen.

You have a short barrel, you give up velocity for compactness.

huh. now i read lastnight that the 250rn is one of the 'better' 250gr bullets to use as it doesnt create as high of pressures as most others. also, i am not seeing signs of pressure yet.

The 250 gr Hornady RN has a very short bearing "surface". That said I use the 225 gr TSX in my Whelen and recently used the 200 gr TTSX in my 358 Win with excellent results. I too would go lighter, no need for 250's.

Mine has a 22" barrel but I got my highest velocities with IMR 4320 and H 4895. I, personally, haven't tried RL 15. As mentioned above the 250 Hornady RN does have a pretty short bearing surface; rifling won't engrave very much forward of the cannelure. At least that's what I've seen on some fired bullets recovered from the backstop.

............Brandon,,,,,,,,,,

Why is there such a need for you to move a 250 grainer @ between 2500 and 2550 fps?? Your rifle is what it is. So if it cannot move a 250 that fast, then why not go down to a 225 where you will get 2500-2550 fps? Something in the field that a 250 will do that a 225 could not?

Secondly. Which ever powder or powders listed that offer the best speeds from a longer barreled 35 Whelen, will also give you the best speeds from your shorter barrel. This business that faster burning powders offer better speeds from the shorter barrels is an assumptive myth which somehow/somewhere got started.

But in terms of getting the better bullet speeds, you reload your 18.5" barreled carbine as though you owned a longer barrel.

The recommendation of the Barnes 225 gr. TSX is a good one. The 225 gr. Nosler partition or Accubond would also be darn good choices. I load 60.4 gr. of RL15 in my Whelen with the Barnes 225 gr. TSX and get a solid 2710 FPS. I tried 53.0 gr. of H335 with the 250 gr. Hornady RN and spire point as well as the 250 gr. Speer Hot Core. Accuracy was good in three different Whelen rifles but IIRC velocity was around 2450 to 2475 FPS. My Ruger M77 and Remington Classic .35's only have 22" barrels and my custom Mauser has a 23" barrel. Frankly, I'd tangle with anything in North America with any of those loads and probably a lot of African game as well. I'd be a lot happier with the 225 gr. TSX though, especially on the bigger stuff.
Paul B.

Sound advice here about your velocities, bullet and powder choices for your Whelen. You didn't mention your weapon though....I happen to have a Remmy 24" take off barrel chambered for the Whelen I'd let go of reasonably.
BD

I'd love to see a pic of your 35 Whelen and the copious notes you have to establish your claims of powder performance.....

well i apreciate the input guys. i guess the reason i was looking for the speed was to keep that 250 gr bullet in the sweet spot for honadys "recomended useful range".

i can live w/ what i have but not knowing i thought ide ask and see if i was missing the boat somewheres.

406SBC, ill get ya a pic. its just a simple 7600 carbine. i do actually take notes on all my loads. otherwise i couldnt tell ya day to day what did what. i ahve a bad memory. what kind of notes would you like sir?

I had a Remington 721 in .35 Whelen with a 26" barrel. It did around 2,500 fps with the Speer 250 spitzer and 54 grs. IMR4064, probably a max. load in that rifle, but was very accurate. The same load in a Ruger 77 .35 Whelen with a 22" barrel gave 2,390.

I have only used RL15 in my M700 CDL 35 Whelen 24" barrel. I read about the powder being the ONE for the Whelen right around the time I got the rifle and I have never been let down. My first load work up was just the same as Paul's, a 225 TSX with 60 grains of RL15. Had excellent accuracy and knocked off an Idaho back bear and small bull elk with it.

This is what I recovered from the bear (elk was a pass through).



After that, I just didn't think the TSX had the same effect as the lead cored bullets, so I started working with the 250 Speer Hor Cor. Awesome bullet in the Whelen. 59.5 grains of RL15 pushed that bullet just under 2600, about 2590 if I recall right. Accuracy was pretty good.

100 yards



200 yards



300 yards



Then, I got some 250 grain PT's. Well, I worked up to 60 grains of RL15, I was getting about 2640 over the chrono and accuracy was pretty good as I crept up closer to 60 grains.

59 grains RL15



60 grains RL15



I have gotten some excellent groups ever since with the 250 PT's. Easily an MOA load out to 400 or better.

[img]http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww233/beretzs/RELOADING%20TARGETS/DSC_2589.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww233/beretzs/RELOADING%20TARGETS/DSC_2738.jpg[/img]

Then, on a whim, I decided to try the 225 AB. I kept the seating die setting exactly the same as the 250 PT and loaded up some charges to see how they would do, speed and accuracy wise.

60.5 RL15

[img]http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww233/beretzs/RELOADING%20TARGETS/IMG_0908.jpg[/img]

60 RL15

[img]http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww233/beretzs/RELOADING%20TARGETS/IMG_0907.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww233/beretzs/RELOADING%20TARGETS/957BF520.jpg[/img]

I then took that rifle out to the longer range and dialed it up and shot a 4-6" group at 600 with it. I was really impressed with it. Really alot of power on tap from the old Whelen when it is loaded up well. Never saw another better powder than RL15 for it with 225 and 250's. At least nothing that has me running out to change.

Sorry for the long story, but with 18.5" of barrel, 2400 with a 250 grain bullet is AWESOME in my book. That is still a very flat shooting round and will smash anything pretty easily out to 300 yards without a whole lot of holdover if it is zeroed correctly. Sounds like you are getting excellent accuracy with it, I wouldn't sweat the speed, it really won't make too much difference unless you are really trying to push it far. Glad to see so many Whelen shooters here.

The powder giving the highest velocity in a cartridge will give the highest velocity regardless of barrel length. If R-15 out of a 22" barrel is faster than 4064, the same will hold true with a 18" barrel.

well thanks again guys. letr me ask one more question. and this is completley personal preferance but if it wereyou would you just keep the load ive been shooting which is a 225 PT @2500 or the 250 horn rn @2400. probably splitting hairs. although the hornady is much cheaper and looks way sexier

My rile is a custom built on an Oberndorf mauser. barrel is 23:, stock pure classic. The foreend tip and grip cap are made from elephant ivory. It has a 1 in 14" twist. I spotted it at a gun show as part of an estate sale and when I picked it up and threw it to my shoulder, I was hooked. I've never in over 54 years of hunting found a rifle that fit me so well. Accuracy is superb with the 225 gr. TSX, usually running .50 to .75".
I also have a Ruger M77RS and Remington Classic in the Whelen but they haven't been used very much. All three rifles will do 1.25" with the 250 gr. Hornady RN and SP and the 250 gr. Speer Hot Core with the H335 load I mentioned.
There's an awful lot of .35 Whelen talk going on over on the Nosler forum for those who are interested. You'd almost think the Whelen was one of the only cartridges worth owning. http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/index.php I posted the url for those who might want to take a looksee.
Paul B.

QL says you should try RL-17.

With just basic SAAMI parameters, including SAAMI pressure, you should be able to get right to 2500 with the 250 Hornady.

Even with the 18.5" barrel.

Simply not the case. When considering 20-24 inch barrels this might be the case sometimes, but when going much shorter say 17 or so inches or much longer 27+ inches the velocity produced may and does vary wildly and certain powders are more effective than others in producing maximum velocity. BTDT again and again.

thanks pjgunner!

There are a few of us 35 Whelen shooters at the Nosler forum that's for sure

For me, the 225 PT at 2500 would be a better combo. I run the 225 PT in the 358 Win at 2450 and it is REALLY awesome how it smacks deer. Haven't had a chance to try it on anything heavier, but it is an impressive combo. They are more expensive, but you could probably use 225 Sierra's for a practice load and just use your PT's for hunting. 225 PT's and Sierra's shoot really similar in my rifles.

Who are these nuts you speak of Paul?

I have done some hunting with my 35 Whelen which is built on a 1903 Springfield action. I had this done back in '89 just before Remington made it a commercial round. I have taken black bear and deer here at home and numerous head of african game from impala to eland. Other than the deer, I have used the Barnes X and TSX in 225grains. I counted over 110 different combinations of loads/bullets and powders I have evaluated and have settled on reloader 15. In this rifle I push the Barnes 225gr at 2625fps and this is more than sufficient for all this game out to 300 yards.

I am kind of a medium bore nut and own/have owned just about them all in the 338 - 375 range. There are none better than the 35 Whelen.

The 225 gr. PT is probably more versatile but either will work. I personally like the 225 gr. slugs in my Whelen. Use RL15 for approx. 2600 fps from a 22 inch barrel.

This load is running about 2700 out of a 22" CVA. Might be a little hot but the CVA I have is throated like a Weatherby and I can't reach the lands.

"There are a few of us 35 Whelen shooters at the Nosler forum that's for sure."

Ain't that the truth.
Paul B.

"Who are these nuts you speak of Paul?"

You know darn well who they are. They are the true intelligentsia if the site.
Paul B.

And where do you come by your opinion? I come by mine from real world shooting. I have a remington model 7 with a 18.5" barrel. I shoot 129gr Hornady Sp out of it and guess which powder gives the best accuracy and velocity out of that stubby barrel? WXR/Rel-22.

I've seen the same thing in a 19" barreled 284 win, an 18" barreled 308win, 4" 357 revolver, and other guns. I've also read the same thing from ballistic engineers and reloading experts.

+1

Fishdog52 nailed it concerning your bullet. It simply will not run as fast. It often takes 2 grains more powder in my 35 Whelen to get the RN up to the velocity of the SP.

That said, Once you find your accuracy load, stick to it. Please don't get hung up on velocity with the big 35 you just don't need to chase after another 80fps... it's meaningless.

I know it looks good to you on paper, but man, once you start plowing completely through game with those 250's with mild accuracy loads, the power will amaze you

.............+1.....From my 300 WSM Ruger Frontier compact, the same powder that is well known to produce the best velocities from the 300 WSMs as a whole and from 24" barrels, also happens to produce the best velocities in all bullet weights (155 gr up to and including the 210s) from my 16.5" shorty barrel which no other powder maybe with the exception of the Hodgdon Superformance (which I haven`t tried yet) can do.

In general and from my experience, slower burners that normally offer better velocities from longer barrels, also will offer better speeds from the shorter ones too, including those less than 17" in length.

In this case, it doesn't matter, you could load it with rice crispies... it's a 35 Whelen!

...........How many grains of rice crispies do you use?

Like often can be the case with certain propellants, you can't get enough Rice Crispies into a 35 Whelen case to approach dangerous pressures.

Well if you have two rifles and a pistol how can I argue with that experience. Then add that you read it from an expert no less and, voil�, it must be true.

I've numerous examples (many times your cited 3) where powders with quicker burn rates produce greater velocity in shorter tubes--not too mention that powders like RL 25, H1000, etc. absolutely shine in tubes over 26 inches in cartridges such as 264 WM, 25/06, 7mm RM and with 24 inch tubes I'll take RL22 in any of those chamberings for greater velocity. Of course some of us are forced to shoot numerous chamberings in numerous rifles and simply can't help but find the truth......

Who the heck carries a 26+ inch barrel around in a hunting gun unless it's a single shot? I don't think you using OVERBORE cartridges is a true repsentation of the issue. Overbore cartidges as a whole are UNDER achievers and need all the help they can get to reach their "claimed" numbers. the 6.5x284 nearly equals the 264mag, the 280 nearly eqauls the 7mm RM, the the 25-06 barely beats a well loaded 257 'bob. the 35whelen is anything but overbore.

"Who the heck carries a 26+ inch barrel around in a hunting gun unless it's a single shot?"

I do. The rifle is a Winchester M70 in .300 Win. mag. and it suits me just fine shooting 200 gr. Speer Hot Cores and 200 gr. Nosler Partions at 2930 and 2950 FPS respectively. Is very accurate with those loads and will reach out and touch something. All my 4 .300 Win. Mags have 26" barrels the Winchester mentioned and 3 Ruger #1 rifles, one "B" and two "S" versions. Frankly, I have not found the long barrel on the M70 to be much of a problem, even in some fairly thick stuff. I think the problem is a bit overblown.
Paul B.

Your obvious experience with these "OVERBORE" beauties almost matches your powder experiences. You'd have to be a "special gifts" reloader to find the 25/06 barely beating a 'Bob......

My point is that you are speaking completely out of your league. Velocity is the product of the pressure curve and coordinating that curve with barrel length is always a fair-to-middling idea. In particular, I was commenting on the falsehood of your previous statement. Best to speak of what you know and leave the rocket science to the scientists.....

Knowing you can't recall your previous statement, here it is:
Sometimes it's best to quit while you're ahead, but I suspect you've got a reply coming my way.

406, a simpe 'i disagree' would do. beig irrogant makes you look like a douche even if you are right.sorry. so bottom line is, a faster burnin powder probably wont make a rats azz differance for me correct? ill prob just stick w/ my 225PT's. i think i have room for a little more smoke out of them anyhow.

btw, i run mostly rem 9 1/2 mag primers. ive read tha p[rimers can and cannot make differances in velocity. whats your take.

If someone posts things that are absolute in nature, but appear humble, regardless of their validity then that's okay. Have someone post a observable and demonstrable fact and then you become arrogant. Gotta love the 'fire.

I should have gone right to the point. RL 15 is probably too slow to recognize max velocity in your tube. Give IMR 4064, 4895 and even TAC a try and I think you'll find more velocity, though you may not get 2400 fps from a 18.5 inch Whelen. FWIW, there are lots of ways to kill game with a Whelen and the 250 cup & cores no longer offer the advantage they once did--BTDT. Your 225 NPT is an okay choice, especially for deer size game, but the 200 TTSX is a great match for the Whelen, preferable IME to the 200 or 225 TSX or any NPT in the Whelen. I load it to 2800+ and it has accounted for moose, caribou, and a very large brown bear. I've killed a lot of critters (big & small) with a lot of cartridges and the Whelen so loaded is a tough combination to beat.

I do believe none other than Mule Deer himself has posted data here and stated that the 257 'bob will nip at the heals of a 25-06.

Maybe you should ask him.

The only way a "well loaded 257 'bob" nips on the heels (whatever that means) of a 25/06 is if the 25/06 is poorly loaded. I'm confident it happens as regular practice for many, but that says significantly more about the reloader than the cartridges in question.......

Oh, if just looking at trajectory figures and giving 3100fps to the Roberts, and 3400 fps to the 25-06 (not poorly loaded), then the Roberts will arrive at about 1 1/4" lower at 300 yards when given a 200 yd Zero.

I'd say that's what could be meant by "nipping at the heels."

Here you go: This comparison is the 7 Mouser with the .280 Rem.. It also addresses the "fast powder" myth.

By Mule Deer relating to a 7 x 57 vs a 280 discussion.

"I was the person who crunched the numbers and came up with the formula (approximate) that any increase or decrease in powder capacity results in 1/4 that increase in potential muzzle velocity, at the same pressure in the same bore size.

It is gratifying to see it quoted so much. Once I even saw it quoted as "the old 1/4 rule." I first published it in RIFLE or HANDLOADER (can't remember which) at most 10 years ago, which I guess qualifies as "old" in this era of the Internet.

I worked out the formula partly because of discussions like this. I had also grown weary of gun writers guessing how much "Ackley Improving" a round would increase the velocity.

The formula was developed by crunching the numbers from a bunch of handloading manuals. If you want to argue about it, feel free. But first spend a few days crunching numbers so we have something realistic to argue about.

The .280 has about 20% more powder capacity than the 7x57, with the same bullet seated to factory overall length (about 3.1" in the 7x57 and 3.35" in the .280). Exactly how much depends on
brass weight, but 20% is pretty close.

Thus the .280 can drive bullets about 5% faster when loaded to the same pressure, in the same barrel length. If the 7x57 is capable of 2700 fps with a 160-grain bullet, then the .280 will drive the same 160 to 2835. If the 7x57 is capable of 2900 with a 140, then the .280 can drive the same bullet to 3045, again everything else being equal.

I see that somebody has brought up the old myth about needing a longer barrel in the .280, to burn up all that slow powder. This is indeed an old one, but the truth is that just about all the smokeless powder that's going to burn in a rifle round (99%+) burns by the time the bullet has traveled maybe 2 inches in front of the chamber, exactly how far depending on various factors. The bullet continues to accelerate because the gas produced by the powder continues to expand, not because the powder is still burning.

In reality, the powder that produces the most velocity in a 26" barrel also produces the highest velocity in an 18" barrel.
This has been proven over and over again. In fact, the LEAST loss of any load's velocity in shorter barrels generally comes from a combination of slow-burning powder and heavy bullets."

I've found the same thing in comparing 22" barreled 257's and 25/06's, and if RL-15 is "too slow", getting more speed out of a faster powder from a 35 Whelen is going to be from an increase in pressure. 15 is going to get you there before pressure signs (other than the most important, the chrony speed).

My Hodgdon load magazine has data for several rifle cartridges in standard and short 15" test barrels. There isn't any significant reordering of powders vs. performance when changing the barrel lengths.

When pressed to the extreme (handguns), there isn't either.