Guys:

I ran across some old DuPont handloader's guides that I have had since the early 1980s, and there are several listings for reduced velocity loads using 130, 145, and 160 grain Speer spitzers at 2080, 1840, and 1890 fps respectively. I don't think I have seen any current load data using 4227 for the 7x57. Does anyone have any experience with using 4227 in the 7x57? I think that would be a pretty interesting practice load at those velocities.

Thanks

Mike

How old are those DuPont guides? If printed within the last half century, I wouldn't worry too much about that data for reduced loads. I would get a little nervous were it for max loads, and the data didn't jive with up to date data. I haven't noticed a change in burn rate for 4227 over the last 35-40 years.

I don't see a date on them, but I picked them up in the early 1980s.

By the way, none of the CUPs exceed 46k.

Can you find SR4759 locally? Good stuff for reduced loads.

All the stuff here is still sort of hit and miss. But I'll keep an eye out.

I just thought it was odd to see 4227 data when I don't see it currently listed.

Those reloading guides were great. The one thing that you might consider is that they generally show nearly every powder they have for each cartridge, and many of the powders listed are less than ideal for any given example. But they show them anyway, and often the maximums, pressure wise, for a given cartridge. One of the things I liked about those pamphlets was that it showed that maximum pressures alone do not provide the same speeds in any example. So be careful with loads that don't necessarily show the highest speeds; the pressures are likely in the same ball park as the more ideal owners are. (Though the 7x57 data - since it is listed at older pressure maximums- likely won't be a problem in a strong, modern rifle.)

Rev,

It's not as surprising actually, since Hodgdon took over distributorship of IMR & Winchester there has been a fair amount of consolidation of powders and some dropping of powders that pretty much duplicate each other. Internet rumor has it that the SRs will be dropped, but others say they aren't - I don't know the truth of it.

What I do know is that one of the LGSs in OKC had SR4759 in stock a couple of weeks ago when I was there, but they didn't have it a couple of months before that.

Anyway, that is probably no help to you, but this might be, I compared 7x57 data from 2 old IMR/Dupont pamphlets I have, one from 1975/76 the other from 1990 and it was identical across 3 bullet weights for 4227. It was also identical for 4759 between the 2 pamphlets.

Best to you.

I have several of the old IMR Brown Sheets....

IMR 4227 and SR 4759, their load data is pretty interchangeable.

However, I have found SR 4759 to be generally a more accurate powder, in about any case...

Granted 4227 is a lot more user friendly at the load bench, but I've used SR 4759 since it has been consistently more accurate.

Load data for both is fairly common in Cast Bullet Manuals.

In my Model 70 Featherweight in 7mm Mauser, I commonly use two loads that have the same point of impact at 100 and 150 yds...

44 grains of IMR 4895 and a 140 grain ballistic tip with an MV of 2800 fps...

and 28 grains of SR 4759 with a 115 grain Speer HP...

the latter recoils like shooting a 223 or 22.250 at the most...

4227, RL-7, 2400, and 4759 all work well for reduced loads in medium capacity bottlenecked cartridges. I've used them all at one time or another for reduced velocity cast bullet loads, but 4759 is my all time favorite.

Thanks, I appreciate the comments. I know Seafire has posted a boatload of reduced velocity 7x57 load data in the past, especially with Blue Dot. I'll do a search to find some of it. These loads would be great for practice as well as taking some small porkers every now and then.

Thanks again.

Good luck finding Blue Dot, I've been on the watch for it for over a year and a half.

That's because I have it all.... don't ya know...

What do you expect the effective range is on deer-size game?

That depends on the bullet Mike....but the above load was with now discontinued Sierra 130 grain Bullets...don't have the MV handy, but know it is in the 30/30 velocity range.

the charge used there was 22.5 grains where max in a 7 x 57 case is 24 grains of Blue Dot... and that is using bullets 140 grains and under.

This is just me personally, so take it with how many grains of salt ya care to, but I'd have no problem using this load on local deer at 200 yds or less...as I say, 30/30 velocity ranges, along with the bullets not being round nosed slowing down as quickly...

I am a firm believer for my hunting, of the old adage that 90% of all game is taken within 100 yds..... and 95% + is taken within 200 yds...

If you look at any trajectory chart, just about any spitzer bullet, regardless of caliber, if the MV is in the 2250 to 2300 fps range, if zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, it will be dead on at 200 yds..

the average deer is 15-16 inches from backbone to breastbone...
cut that in half and that yields a window of opportunity at 7 1/2 inches....so I set my load at approximately 2250 fps ( with an appropriate bullet to perform in that window of opportunity)..
so it I hold my sights on hair, anything out to about 240 yds ( 3.5 inches low)...I'll hit the vitals.. and the rifle is shooting a bullet that is capable of opening up at that impact velocity...

has worked out just fine for me...

Thanks. When Blue Dot is once again available I'll give these loads a try. In my own hunting environment it's rare that I shoot in excess of 100 yards, although we do have one stand 127 yards from a feeder. Even at that range I think a 140 behind the ear will do the trick.

Until I can get some Blue Dot, though, I think I'll give the 4227 a try (once I get a new bench set up) and see how things go.

Again, thanks for all the information.

SR 4759 has about the same burn rate and data is interchangeable with 4227, it just fills the case more is all...

but 7 x 57 data, or 7/08 data will work just fine with 4227.. especially minute of whitetail at 100 yds or less...and recoil will be pretty negligible....

Seafire, what is your source that data for SR4759 and IMR4227 is interchangeable?

Can one of you fine gentlemen hook me up with a 120 gr SP or BT, IMR 4227 at about 1500-1600 fps? I need something to take out raccoons between 40 and 65 yards.

As an alternative, is there something in W760 that would give same velocity in same bullet weight?

This is for a modern 7x57, by the way.

Thanks

A .22 Hornet would be a pretty good raccoon shooter.

True, but I don't want to carry two guns to a stand. I'll be sitting with my 7x57. It'd be easier just to swap out a cartridge.

Rev,at the distances you kill pigs,a .22 Hornet will work.

You're probably right!!

Yup,I am.












But my wife thinks differently.

That's generally the way it is.

Yup.

and both have a similar burn rate.. I've always found the data interchangeable...

I prefer 4227 in 223 sized cases... Sr 4759 is better in the larger cases, say 243 and up...

I run Sr 4759 in a 7 x 57 with a 120 and 130 grain bullet and have taken several deer with it, to include a 210 lb blacktail... which is a big one..

Sr 4759 loads will also quite often give the same point of impact as standard loads with the same bullet weight, which I find convenient...

I use 44 grains of 4064 or 4895 with a 140 grain ballistic tip as one load, and 28 grains of Sr 4759 with a 120 grain ballistic Tip in another load...

both pretty much have the same POI at 100 yds...within minute of say a Robin Sized bird...which is close enough for my needs...

Thanks SF. The problem is can't find 4759 anywhere, although 4227 is available. Would you use the same charge of 4227 and 4759 interchangeably? What velocity are you getting with the 28 gr load of 4759 and the 120 BT?

Thanks again.

Id have to chronograph it again, as I don't think I have those notes... I've been using that charge since like 2008....just remember the amount as I have a batch of 20 pieces earmarked for that load, and they spend their off season time in a zip lock bag with a 3 x 5 with info on it for company...

I hunt in an area that a 30/30 would be right at home in... so the 120 and that SR 47509 load would be right at home also...

125 yds or less... furthest distance we've killed deer out of that 3000 acres is 150 yds...

The powder ditributor that my LGS uses told them that SR4759 HAS been discontinued.

On a side note, they have so much 4227 I don't know if I'll ever afford to buy it all.

Ed

Ed,

I checked with Hodgdon when that was reported on the Campfire here...I was told by them " don't believe what you hear on the internet ( big surprise), instead call us and we will tell the straight scoop"...

they told me they had no plan of eliminating it from the product line... they just make powders in runs, and of course the slower movers get put on a lower priority...

Unique and Blue Dot have been scarcer than Hen's teeth for several years... but Alliant's Ben Ammonette emailed me back when I asked him and he told me the same thing... no plans of eliminating it... neither is as big of seller as some of their other powders, so its being positioned in the production runs according to its sales standings is all...

At least that was the word, from the factory people, who are the contacts with the public..

SF

One of the techs at Sierra gave me two starting loads for IMR 4227: 22 grains in 100 gr hp and 21 in 120 gr sp. Have you tried those with any success? Remember, I'm just taking out raccoons.

Yeah, I'd rubber stamp those two recommendations...you are not pushing any limits...

if you find any, either of the 4198s are also good powders for that type of duty....

I tend to use charges ranging from 25 to 30 grains in many rifles and calibers, ranging from 243 on up thru 30/06....

for something like Raccoon sized stuff, if we are talking trees in the yard...even down to 20 grains of 4198 works real well...

and yeah, I've used 100 and 120 grain bullets, along with the 110 and 115 grain Speer HPs...

just FYI, the old IMr Brown Sheet for the 7 x 57, listed the following loads as Max for the 7mm Mauser, with 4227

1. 130 grain Speer, 22,5 grains 2080 fps, 44300cup

2. 145 gr Speer, 22.5 grains , 1840 fps, 44400 cup

3. 160 gr Speer, 22.5 grains, 1890 fps, 46000 cup.

hope that helps ya out Rev Mike...

best regards

Thanks, SF. I appreciate the information.

The application is actually for raccoons raiding feeders, and all shots are within 60 yards. The plan is to find something that shoots to the same POI that I can slip on top of a magazine of full power loads to pick off the raccoons as I'm sitting in a stand.

But here's a question, and please understand that this is coming from a neophyte: How do you know how far you can reduce any given powder charge and it still be safe? For instance, the tech at Sierra said that I didn't want to go down too far with 4227, not for fear of sticking a bullet in the barrel, but for fear of a detonation instead of a controlled burn. His comment was "You don't have an action strong enough to handle that" - meaning that even my M70 and M98 wouldn't contain it. So my question is, How does one know how far to reduce a charge?

Thanks again. You and Mule Deer ought to write a book on reduced loads. I'm serious.

RM

Mike,

Well first, my knowledge compared to Mr. Barsness is like comparing the volume of a thimble vs a Water Tank...

The only real way I've done it, is to do the opposite of working up, but take a working known load and work down...

different powders can get squirrelly when you start to work down, and will start showing signs of eradic ignition...

all powders will not necessarily work very well...they may get the bullet to shoot, but that isn't accomplishing the objective... you want it to be accurate and safe, and consistent...

I have found shotgun powders work extremely well in many cases...

For a short course in this endeavor, for around $20, or less at a used book store... pick up a current or used Lyman Load Manual for Cast Bullets and work off of that...

Cast bullet loads are no where near what is SAAMI specs, as the most many of them are shot at is about 30/30 speeds...so in many firearms you are nowhere near max pressure, so I have always found using that load data for jacketed bullets work just fine...

but I'll defer that confirmation to Mr Barsness....

but I will point out that many of those shot gun powders have different patterns to them than do regular rifle powders...

an example is that you can take a max load say in a 243, with a 100 grain bullet... with regular rifle powder, you can put more in when using a much lighter bullet and be safe... not so with a shot gun powder...

in a 243, what I found was max with a 100 grain bullet, is also the same charge for max with a 55 or 60 grain bullet....

but follow those Lyman Cast Bullet Manuals and you'll be fine and find a lot of shooting time for cheaper without wearing out your barrel so fast, and also find they are a joy to shoot with how low the recoil is with them...yet with the right bullet they are plenty for deer and smaller at 150 yds or less, 200 or less if you know how to play with your trajectory...

feel free to PM me if you have any questions ever...

best regards
seafire

Thanks, SF, I really appreciate this. This is really helpful. I'll definitely pick up the Lyman manual.

Again, I appreciate it.

Mike

Mike,
I have used 10 grains of Unique with both 160 (1387 fps) plus 135 grain (1527 fps) cast bullets and 150 grain but, that one was not accurate and I didn't chrono it.
Also used 20 grains of MR 4759 with a poly filler and the 160 cast for 1778 fps.

I believe Unique to be about the best powder for reduced loads and have employed it in the .250-3000, 7x57, .308, .30-40, .30'06, .358, and .45-70 maybe more. Unique leaves a lot of air space in the rifle cases so adopt a procedure which will prevent a double charge! I haven't noticed detered accuracy in relation to powder orientation with Unique.

If I were searching for a light jacketed, say a 130-140 grain bullet for my 7x57, I'd load 14 grains. Then set up my chronograph, while checking for accuracy, and stop whenever accuracy was satisfied or at 1800 fps which should be in the neighborhood of 16 to 17 grains. Not a recommendation, just telling what I'd do.

I think that's the best advice yet. Lots O' knowledge to be gained from that book, even for a non-cast bullet shooter.

John:

Yesterday Seafire provided a wealth of information for me in this post. He deferred to you on the question of using cast data with jacketed bullets for light loads. Any comment?

Thanks to everyone for their responses.