I have a 'Deluxe Set' with the FL,NK, and seater dies.

I have the FL die set up and can get .001-.003 runout after resizing.

I cannot get the NK die to do anything less than .008 - .010

I have adjusted the die up and down, adjusted the stem up and down in the die, even tried a rubber washer between the die and press. It will not do any better.

What am I missing?

-Dustin

Conventional neck size dies don't support and align the case the way a good FL die will, and they generally don't produce runout numbers as good.

If you want to neck size and get straight brass, then you want a Lee collet die or a bushing type die that sizes the brass just enough.

I should say your particular neck die may have a problem, but my earlier statement holds for conventional neck dies in general.

I would agree.

Have usually had better luck partial-sizing with FL dies than using neck-sizing dies. The exception is cartridges with very parallel sidewalls, where the neck die sometimes (not always) is close enough to case diameter to support the brass while the neck's being pulled over the expander ball.

Remove the expander and spindle assembly from your neck die, size the neck and check your runout. If the runout is reduced your expander and spindle assembly are the cause of your runout.

The question isn't whether the expander ball is the cause of the run-out. In conventional sizing dies it almost always is, or has been since RCBS quit reaming necks separately in their sizing dies, quite a few years ago.

I have yet to encounter a Redding sizing die where the neck was out of alignment with the body.

If the expander and spindle assemble are locked down off center or slightly bent the case neck will be pulled off center as it is pulled over the expander. And the biggest cause of neck runout is caused by the expander than any other reason followed by uneven neck thickness.

The Forster bench rest dies have the high mounted expander that prevents this. The Forster expander floats and enters the case neck when the neck is still centered in the die. The rubber washer (W-10) below allows the expander spindle to move and self center in the case neck.



The Forster expander works so well I installed them on all my RCBS sizing dies. The converted .223 die below is producing cases with .001 or less runout after sizing,



And the reason I stated to remove the expander and then check neck runout was to see if the expander was the cause of the runout.

And I'm saying that testing isn't required to determine if the expander ball is the problem, because it always is--unless as noted the sizing die is old RCBS (or possibly some other brand) where the neck and body of the sizing chamber are out of line with each other.

I haven't bothered testing any new dies for this for many years, because the necks of the sizing chamber haven't been out-of-line, with any brand, including RCBS.

As for the Forster assembly, I do essentially the same thing, at far less expense, with RCBS dies (and some other brands) by raising the expander ball assembly to just under the neck section of the die. Once I know how high that is, I place rubber grommets of the right diameter on the spindle, above the top of the die. The grommets hold the spindle in the correct position, and allow the loosened spindle to self-center in the neck of the case. This costs less than a buck. I always have a Lee decapping die in one hole of my Redding T7 anyway, so decapping isn't a problem.

The expander isn't always the problem, if the case has unequal case wall thickness the case can warp when fired and become banana shaped.



And by raising the expander you are not doing the same as the Forster expander. Below on the left is a RCBS expander assembly and on the right is the Forster unit. With the Forster expander assembly the expander is much higher and the case neck is "fully" supported and centered in the die as the expander enters the case neck. Meaning the expander is always centered in the case neck and the RCBS expander is not, and because of this the "lower" mounted expander can induce neck runout. Meaning you will "never" get the RCBS expander as high as the Forster unit and have the case neck supported by the die.



Also rifles like the AR15 can chew up your rim and extractor groove. And any ding inside of the rim can cause the case to tilt on the down stroke of the ram. With the Forster unit the neck can not tilt on the down stroke of the ram. I used the "cheaper" method you described and it did not reduce the neck runout as much as the Forster unit does.

So one more time, you check the case after sizing "without" the expander to eliminate the expander and also check to see if the case is warped from firing. And you can't eliminate the neck runout possible causes without removing the expander.

So do the OP a favor and stop telling him he doesn't need to remove his expander to eliminate what could be inducing his neck runout.

Even if the neck thickness is uneven, a neck-sizing die isn't going to turn a case banana-shaped, and neither is firing the case, unless the chamber of the rifle is wonky. Only a full-length die will do that. Or at least that's been my experience in measuring a bunch of cases with lop-sided necks.

In RCBS dies, you can raise the expander ball just as high as it is in Forster die. In fact you can raise it so high in many RCBS dies the neck of the case won't even go into the neck portion of the die. I have tested this technique a bunch of times, alongside Forster dies.

Redding neck expander buttons are the size of bull pricks. Why on earth would anyone engineer such a massive cylinder to yank back thru the necks?

Use a Lee Collet die if it's available in your cartridge and never look back . . . .

Redding dies get an immediate swap to a carbide ball or one of their tapered expanders.

You should see the expander, truck axle, drill stem, whatever that came out of an old Lee 308 Win. FL die I have.

Lee's current tapered expander is really good.

If the case has unequal wall thickness the thin side of the case will expand more than the thicker side. These cases will warp and become banana shaped when fired.

I posted photos of the NECO gauge which clearly states this and the RCBS expanders and you still want to argue with photographic proof. In my photo the RCBS spindle is raised as high as it will go and the Forster expander is in its normal position.

It is obvious you do not have the gauges to measure this warping of the case when fired and your lack of knowledge and experience is showing.

I just went out and measured it. The bearing surface is 1.25" long.

mmm How about using an "O" ring, leaving the stem to wobble a bit and use the carbide expander from Redding ?

Been working for me. And I have been using the old school neck sizer.

bugedp51,

I have a NECO tool, among other concentricity gauges, and don't know what "proof" your photos have provided of anything, other than what you own.

I just rechecked once-fired brass in two different chamberings, deliberately picking some with lop-sided necks to see if I could find this banana-shape caused by firing. None of them showed as much as .001" of run-out when measured just behind the case mouth--unless the neck was dented or flattened slightly. This was exactly how much runout showed up when measuring fired cases from the same batches of brass with under .001" neck thickness variation.

Rifles And More

Remover your expander and size your case, if the runout decreases your expander is the problem.

Also when you full length resize the chambered round is supported by the bolt face in the rear and by the bullet in the throat. With a full length resized case the case body and neck do not contact the chamber. Meaning the case has much less chance of causing bullet misalignment with the bore.

You do not have to believe me but you should be able to trust Kevin Thomas and the late Jim Hull of Sierra bullets testing lab and world class long range shooting competitor.

How well it works depends on how the brass you're using interacts with the die.

I'll use 308 Winchester for example. All following discussion assumes good brass with necks known to be uniform.

My Redding FL die takes the necks down to something like .328"-.329" depending on springback. With thin WW brass the expander ball goes through with a light touch, leaving the necks at .330", and with loaded necks of .332" all is well and runout is low.

The very same die works the hell out of Lapua cases whose loaded necks are .338" in diameter, and runout of sized brass and loaded cartridges suffers as a result.

These are the results no matter what tricks I've applied.

Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension/

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/


Below is the link to "The Rifleman's Journal" with very good tips on reloading.

The Rifleman's Journal
Index of Articles
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html

And below is for the "person" who doesn't think a cases can warp and become banana shaped when fired.



Its bigedp51 and not (bugedp51) even if it bugs you to be wrong.
So read and expand your knowledge on the subject.

Checking Case Wall Concentricity
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/07/reloading-audette-neco-case-checker.html

Indexing Cases
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/11/reloading-indexing-cases.html

OK Big Ed,

I'm familiar with a bunch of the material you linked to, and also to a lot of other information.

Apparently you didn't notice, but in the article on case warping, nobody could measure any warping after firing until a very tight gauge was made. No significant warpage of fired cases could be found with a NECO tool. Instead the emphasis was on what happened to the case while it was fired.

The easiest way to avoid banana cases, no matter what their cause, is to measure them beforehand to make sure the necks and bodies are as even as possible. This is what many benchrest shooters do, instead of using lopsided cases and indexing them.

You may not have noticed something either: This is the reloading for Big Game Rifles forum, and not even the Long-Range Hunting forum. The minutiae that you're spouting is not only often irrelevant with what your supposed points, but irrelevant to the entire forum. If you want to show off what an expert you are, you might try a forum where somebody cares.

The OP asked "why" he was getting increased neck runout with his neck die. And I told him how to check and find out where the runout is coming from.

In the second reply you stated you partially full length resize your cases rather than use a neck die or completely full length resize.

Below is more reading material for you and what is wrong with partial full length resizing and bullet alignment with the bore. Bottom line, full length resizing is the best choice in reloading concentric ammo.

Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html

I also noticed this is the Reloading Forum -Big Game Rifles and these type rifles are used to hunt game at longer range.

I'm 65 and have been reloading for over 46 years and I try and learn something new everyday. So it would be in your interest to learn something new and keep up with the rest of the world in reloading and its proper methods. And telling the OP how to reload straight ammo with minimal neck runout isn't a small or trifling matter.

And if you look at the top of the page you will see tree stickys on how to reload for long range.

Go back and read it my first post again. I did NOT say I always partial size with FL dies, instead that I've had better luck using FL dies to partially size cases than when using standard neck-sizing dies. There is a big difference between those two statements.

In the same post I also explained why standard neck-sizing dies tend to pull necks off-center. You decided that wasn't enough and decided to get into a bunch of minutiae. Apparently that's what you like to do. I don't, unless there's some particular reason. The stuff you're discussing will make zip difference in hunting rifles, whether factory-made or with custom SAAMI-minimum chambers, except for checking case-necks for reasonably even thickness.

I have read German's partial-sizing article before, and agree with what he says as far as it goes. But there are circumstances where partial-sizing works, and I have written about them myself in more than one article. If you read more widely you might have encountered one of them, but I am not about to repeat why here, because you'll just come back with another link.

Oh, and by the way, I'm 62 and have been handloading for 50 years. How long you or I have handloaded has nothing to do with any of this, or how many links you can post. I also learn about handloading just about every day, and try to write about what matters to most hunters, rather than target shooters, though I do considerable reading in just about every aspect of handloading, including shotgun handloading, which I also have written about considerably.

Unlike you, however, I do try to write about stuff I have researched myself considerably by loading and shooting as well, instead of taking everything I read as The Word, and posting photos and links to "prove" my points.

Several times in this thread I've demonstrated what you've posted is irrelevant or wrong, and even went to the trouble to double-check a bunch of fired brass to see if any had taken on a measurable banana shape, as you suggested they do from being fired. When I reported the results you came back with another link, which also reported no measurable banana shape in fired brass UNLESS a very tight gauge was used, unavailable to 99.99% of handloaders.

I was tired of your self-important BS from the second post on, and even more tired of it now, having wasted too much time with it already.

Actually Mule Deer all you have done is say I'm wrong to prove you can't be wrong

This is a reloading forum and information varies and you do not like being told you are incorrect.

The topic here is "WHY" is the OP getting increased runout with a Redding neck sizing die. And the best way to find out is to remove the expander and isolate the problem.

Big Ed,

I see you have 12 posts, thus you're a newcomer to the Fire.

Welcome.

Generally, newcomers to most any venue are better served by listening and getting the feel of the territory before charging forth like the proverbial bull in the china closet, challenging all takers.

Just saying.

And did I say Welcome to the Fire...

DF

Kinda reminds me of someone who just got booted off another forum and darn near another lately. Pretty much the same attitude of being the wanting to be the "new sheriff in town" syndrome.

Should make for some good entertainment for awhile.

Big Ed,

Nope, wrong again.

I concisely explained the problem with conventional neck dies in one short post, because I've used enough of them to PROVE through experimentation that the expander ball combined with the lack of case-body support IS the big problem. That's why I said there's no need to "isolate" the problem. It's been isolated enough.

You've never heard the old saying: "Insanity is repeating the same action over and over again and expecting different results."

We got mega doses of that in D.C.

And look how that's working for us...?

DF

And I hope the OP tells us what he finds out and what is causing his runout problem.

And I didn't come here to listen, I came here to answer questions.

And I may be new to the forum but I'm far from being new to reloading.

And if you have a good ol' boy network here I could care less who thinks he is king of the hill.

If anyone can "prove" the information I have provided is wrong then do so. The links I provided are there to prove what I have stated are facts and not fiction. Meaning they are established reloading fact and not "I'm right because I say so and only my opinion matters".

So you have a nice day also, and forgive me if I didn't sugar coat my answers enough for everyone.

This ain't my first roundup.

nope Redding neck dies don't work. They are junk. I use em and don't have a run out gauge. They suck.

A new face at the 'fire and he's gonna set everybody straight.
Ignore

And Mule deer wants to take credit for what mathman stated in the very first response. The problem with Mule Deer's theory is then "HOW" does a bushing neck sizing die die support the case and get low runout figures "without" a expander???

Then this brings up why do people who neck size only use a expander mandrel to expand their necks. (in the link I already posted)

Below the very first response to this thread by mathman.

Dude, post some of your groups, let's see what ya got, and what you can do.

Sorry for the fuss…

Brass is once fired Lapua.

I can take a neck sized piece with runout of .009 and resize it without the expander assembly and it cuts the runout about in half .004 to .005. Tried with several pieces.

Took a virtually perfect once fired and sized it without the expander came out .004

I'll just use the FL die. I set it up on the press for partial sizing with a washer between the die and press for a little wiggle. I have also moved the expander up in the die to mimic the set of Forester dies I have. It works well.

Thanks.

Hey man...

Something ain't right, you got runout or worse.

You need to work on that, tighten up that group...

It's embarrassing...

DF

We know you're a Hoss.

You told us so...

Playing King of the Hill isn't what we do here.

MD doesn't play that game.

It's unfortunalte you do.

DF

Been reading this with great interest. Let's see......MD is an accomplished and respected outdoorsman, outdoor writer, published gozillions of books and articles on the subject, and many others, while Lardass ed came to give orders, and not listen.

Do I understand this situation correctly?

Pretty close from what I've observed.

JG, you do cut to the chase...

DF

That's my dad's fault.....it's hereditary I'm afraid.

Don't be.

You just asked a straight forward question.

You had no control over what transpired.

You came to learn, like most of us.

The Fire is not too unlike eating chicken wings. You eat the meat, spit out the bones...

DF

You are the one making the positive claim.

The burden of proof is on you, not those who doubt you.

In my first post I said to remove the expander and see if the runout is reduced, and it was.

I also said he would get the least amount of runout using a Forster bench rest full length resizing die with its high mounted expander. And the OP stated he will try moving the expander up with his existing full length die and try to reduce the runout.

And I do not play games, the problem started when Mule Deer tried to tell me he was the only one who knows how to reload.

So tell me, how many more people in this forum actually think they are the only ones who know how to reload.

I have a neck thickness gauge and a runout gauge that tells me where my runout is coming from on my loading bench. And anyone with gauges should be able to find the cause of the runout.

So again if anyone can "prove" anything I said or linked was wrong then go ahead and prove it. Just don't say because I said your wrong and expect anyone to believe your BS. And if anyone thinks their post count means they have more experience reloading they need their heads examined.

One of the biggest problems the internet has are the midgets setting at their computers pretending to be giants.

I still haven't figured out what you are all excited about.

Turning necks is pretty simple and resolves a lot of issues.

That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever read in any forum. What you are saying is everyone has to drink Mule Deer's purple cool aid or else they are wrong.

Is this a reloading forum or the campfire scene in Blazing Saddles? Its getting deep.

I think you're better off playing over on Optics Talk. They like telling people how great they are over there like you do.

I have to agree that Mule Deer has not really had an original idea in all the years I have known him. Most everything he writes is something I told him. Ask him about plastic tipped bullets sometime...

Bigedp51, I bet if we were all sitting around a table having coffee or a beer or two, your responses would be quite a bit different. At least I hope they would be.

Apparently, you know a thing or two about reloading so relax and enjoy the give and take; it's not a contest.

Thank you for displaying your ignorance.

Now go pick up a logic book, noob.

Yep, I do believe I am right as to where this guy came from. Even if I am wrong, no time for this attitude from someone. ::ignored::

I put my pants on just like everyone else does. And if you don't like the way I reload and what I have learned about reloading then don't read my postings.

So just remember I'm just like Mule Deer, I'm brilliant, good looking and exceedingly modest.

Signed
Attila the Hun

Actually I have never heard of MD or any of the gozillions books you say he has published. Even after going to his home page and seeing what he has written. I guess reading mainstream books by better known competitive shooters like Tubbs or Zediker doesn't count.





What I can tell you is after reading so many mainstream books on reloading and the way MD behaved here I don't have any plans on reading anything he has written. And I do not plan on being a cult follower and drinking his Kool-Aid. Mr. MD needs a little more charm and finesse when talking to others. Especially when there is a whole world that has never heard of him and doesn't share the high opinion he has of himself.

You and the other cult worshipers can have this forum if MD is the only person that can answer reloading questions.

Writing them would count.

Touche'

DF

Well, alot of us have heard of MD, and read many of his monthly articles and published books. We damn sure never heard of you.

By reading books written by Tubb, how many Camp Perry's did that win you?

We "had this forum" before you found it and will "have" it after you move on.

Hint, hint...

No cult following here, no "king of the hill" stuff, just a mutually beneficial exchange of information and comradery that you don't seem to appreciate or understand.

Your loss.

I'm sure other forums (somewhere) would appreciate your "expertise" and attitude.

DF

That begs the question of how many Camp Perry's did MD win and how many grand master titles does MD have.

This is very simple, all I did was tell the OP to remove his expander and see if the runout was reduced, and it was cut in half after he removed his expander. This is call a process of elimination.

The OP also stated when using his neck die it was still causing approximately .004 runout wih the expander removed. And we had another poster using neck dies posting pictures of bug hole groups. Meaning I would look further into finding the cause of the runout. Step one would be a neck thickness gauge followed by neck turning his cases.

And as long as MD thinks his opinion is the only one that matters he is always going to be rubbing someone the wrong way.

So forgive me for trying to help the OP reduce his runout in a forum with a cult following. Is MD real name Jack O'Conner, Skeeter Skelton or Elmer Keith..........those names ring a bell.

Dirtfarmer

I just read through the posting twice and couldn't find a single post where you tried to help the OP solve his runout problem. In fact all the sarcastic comments are coming from the people who offered no help at all to the OP.

Nice forum Dirtfarmer, your good at shoveling dirt but you didn't produce any "food" to sustain us.

This is all I need to know about you.

I've only been reloading for ten or eleven years and have already figured out big ed is a douche. YMMV.

I've been reloading for over 50 yrs.

And, you're right, it don't take long or take a rocket surgeon to figure that one.

DF

That's all in the eye of the beholder.

The OP's situation was addressed, your's needed comment.

DF

Then after reading my posts Higbean your mouth should feel fresh and clean for a change.

I have very simple rules, don't step on my toes and I won't stomp on yours.

So again how many people here think they are the only ones that know how to reload and reduce neck runout.

A simple matter of reducing neck runout and how to do it and a frigging war starts.

It is simply amazing that MD thinks he is the only one who knows how to reload. (yeah right)

And the shear number of rats that came out of the wood pile making comments here that "NEVER" offered the OP any help just shows how many douches there are in this forum.

The subject was reducing neck runout and MD didn't like my suggestion of removing the expander. The OP removed the expander and the runout was cut in half. Now all the OP needs to do is figure out where the other half of his neck runout is coming from.

Do any of you douchebags want to tell the OP how to fix his problem? Or are you just going to stay in the closet because your afraid to make any technical comments here.

Do you know how to argue a point without being a blowhard?

Not sure how many douches there are here. But one thing's certain, we now have one more.

Ok that was TFF!

Well there IS that! lol



It sounds like biged51 put his IQ in his screen name.

I'm waiting for him to post a link to an article MD wrote.

WOW!

Becoming a pariah in only 22 posts!

That's gotta be a Campfire record.

We've seen some really accomplished Trolls unable to achieve that status so quickly.

You are special without a doubt.

DF

I believe that is his belt size.

You mean not being a blowhard like MD?

Now go back and read this posting from its start, I was very polite until MD wanted pull the handle of my reloading press and tell me I was wrong.

Now why is it that other people who use neck sizing dies don't share MD opinion or results?

Why is it I can use a RCBS neck sizing die and get .001 or less runout and then have a blowhard tell me it can't be done?

All I heard MD saying in this posting was I was wrong and he is right.

And "how" did neck sizing turn into a one man show?

And some of you want me to sit in the back of the bus and watch the expert and learn. (yeah right)

I guess not.

Big Ed,

You really do have a reading comprehension problem. If you'll go back and read my posts I NEVER said anybody can't "use an RCBS neck-sizing die and get .001 or less runout." Instead I simply pointed out by far the most common cause of excessive runout with standard neck-sizing dies.

Also don't recall ever saying I was the only person who knows anything about reloading. Maybe you can provide yet another link?

Sorry to hear you won't be buying any of my books. I'll just have to struggle along somehow.

Larry Root again ? Sure smells like his stench...

JG, why do you feel compelled to take pot shots at OT folks when you are a member there. Not the first time I've seen you remark about them either.

[quote=tzone
I'm waiting for him to post a link to an article MD wrote. [/quote]

Advanced Handloading: Beyond The Basics
by John Barsness (Author, Actor, Director)

A review of his DVD at Amazon.com

By CA Mike on March 27, 2015

Okay, I gave it a 2 star because they shipped it to me properly and in time.

As for the content, I didn't believe the other 1-2 star reviews and purchased the DVD anyways.

However, the other reviewers were right, there is nothing on there that I do not already know or am already doing in regards to precision reloading.

If you are on a budget, you can learn everything you need to know about precision reloading on Google and Youtube!


And I thought I was all alone here with my opinion.

I haven't been there in a while, but I did pick up that vibe a bit too.

We who ?

Sent you a PM.

In being fair, there is a big difference between the accepted communication tactics here and what is or is not accepted over at OpticsTalk. I'm not a hypocrite, so I'll say that I've said things here that I probably wouldn't say over there and was spoken to about it.

OT is a joke. Nowhere else can you get repetitive, accepted, applauded recommendations like using a tactical reticle for max 300 yard shots, offer a differing point of view, then get PM's from mods whining about an opposing view, especially when you oppose what that Illya dude says........NOBODY does that and gets away with it.

Your problem MD is you just can't stop insulting other reloaders and don't know when to back off and let other people get a word in. And I sure as hell do not have a reading problem as "YOUR" words prove below.



The expander isn't always the problem MD and this is the heart of this pissing contest. And by the OP removing his expander he solved half his problem. And all the OP needs is to investigate the problem further and fix the other half of the problem. And if you had not been so hard headed and contradict everything I said, and criticize the links I posted to help the OP we wouldn't be on page four of this posting.

And in closing MD the review at Amazon sums up things very clearly. Now get over yourself and let other people in this forum get a word in on how to help solve problems without being stepped on by a world class and friendly writer. (yeah right)

Gee, now my entire career is going to be judged by one CD?

Let me tell you about that. Several companies decided to produce it, with me chosen to do the talking. But when we all got together to film it, mostly flying in from various parts of the country, they each had an idea of what "advanced handloading" meant. As a result they eventually decided to produce a series of CD's, each on different aspects of advanced handloading. That was supposed to be the first, but for a couple of reasons the others never got made, even though the original sold pretty well, and is still selling OK almost a decade later.

I didn't contradict much of what you said, because you did a much better job of contradicting yourself.

Nothing wrong with a couple of blokes having a dust-up online.

But for the record I've never seen MD insult anyone - counterpoints sometimes firmly put, yes. No insults though. And very helpful.

He seems like a gentleman from what I've seen and heard.

And for the record thanks to all who've contributed to this thread because in between all the muck I have learned a good deal!

Have you tried the Redding "floating" expander buttons ?

Ironic that you posted this completely unsolicited comment that had nothing to do with the topic in the same thread where you excoriated a guy for acting like an ass for no apparent reason.

And you wonder why you have personality conflicts with folks over there. You just illustrated the reason better than anyone else could. Your issues ain't about a "different point of view," and the only "PMs (you) get from mods" are in response to the ones you SEND to mods, b!tching about something because you have tissue paper thin skin. Just like there, you also initiate the same PM b!tch sessions here too.

One can't help but wonder why you would choose to lurk in such a worthless forum DAILY and waste your time in a place that you devote so much time criticizing. I just checked, and you logged in 11 minutes ago.

You're FOS, as usual. Mr Finn asked, so I responded. Read the thread. Shouldn't you be over there kissing all of your buddies' asses, like you always do.

Reason I logged in is I'm curious about the LAW rifle thread, for the record.

This lardass ed guy is an ass. You obviously didn't read the thread after that brilliant comment.

They're soulmates.

Exhibit B.

"For the record."




No, you didn't just "respond to Finn," Finn "responded" to you. YOU brought up your same tired complaint about OT totally out of the blue, and this isn't the first time YOU'VE done so. You like to feign outrage over the slightest perceived insult, that you bring on yourself. You like to dish it out, but you can't take it. It's childishness.

Your issue with OT has its genesis from an argument you had with another member YEARS AGO who didn't happen to share your same opinion of the Nikon 82mm Fieldscope. You took it personally, and you've had a weed up your azz over OT ever since. Now, "as usual," you play the victim, acting self-righteous when someone calls out your obvious hypocrisy.

Yeah I read the whole thread, and agree Ed was being an ass.

As were you..."as usual."

Thinking Rick needs a new forum, "Fight Club" where keyboard commandos duke it out and side bets are taken.

Jesus will approve, as soon as he finishes the lawn.

bobnob17

No worries mate, MD only problem is his underwear is too tight and it makes him exceeding grumpy. And I'm very well adjusted, have a great sense of humor but some of the people here just don't understand.................



Years ago in the Enfield forums my friends from OZ and I got along just fine and loved my good taste in rifles and beer.



What I mean bobnob17 is how many Americans do you know who can loose a Enfield postal match to the Australians and loose gracefully?



Or fully understand Australian sports ethics.



In closing bobnob17 if you haven't noticed the inmates are running the asylum here. And some of them even admit they get away with it here and not in other forums where they would be put in time out or even banned for their comments.

And you would never see this kind of behavior in a British or Commonwealth forum.



And sorry for the small size photos, I cleared out my Photo Bucket account of all my old Enfield photos some time ago, and had to go find them on the net again.


"BUT" I did find a full size image of a helpless little Koala Bear for MD to pick on the next time he thinks he needs a target to pick on.

Send me a PM if you want to start crying about OT again Rifle and spare these folks the pain of watching you acting like a teenage girl.

As to the Nikon 82ED, I have no clue what you're referring to.

I thing this guy is the offspring of Larry Root and Little Twig.

They have a floating one other than the carbide ball?

Yuengling shows good taste in beer?

At least he's consistent. And I suspect you know what Emerson said about consistency.

I wonder what beer hobgoblins like?

Exhibit C.

The only one "crying about OT," is you, obviously. You are, after all, the one who brought it up. Again.

And you know damn well what I'm referring to, but your lack of maturity prevents you from taking responsibility for your own behavior.

Thanks for continually proving my point. You're doing well.

With all due respect (yeah right) MD you are the biggest a$$hole in this forum along with your douchebag buddies. So grow up and try and at least to act like the respected writer you think you are.

Your rating at Amazon tells it all, John Barsness (Author, Actor, Director)

I agree, a child actor, it fits, and if you had written something worthwhile I would have remembered.

And the review at Amazon tells the real story about your ability.

By CA Mike on March 27, 2015

Okay, I gave it a 2 star because they shipped it to me properly and in time.

As for the content, I didn't believe the other 1-2 star reviews and purchased the DVD anyways.

However, the other reviewers were right, there is nothing on there that I do not already know or am already doing in regards to precision reloading.

If you are on a budget, you can learn everything you need to know about precision reloading on Google and Youtube!


P.S. You could even try selling the Vern Juenke machine at your website and see if it compensates for you lagging DVD and book sales.

And guess what just appeared in my mail box John Barsness (Author, Actor, Director) AKA Mule Deer.

Below the PM sent to me here.

"FWIW, I share your view entirely. I am a bit shocked at his change in attitude recently, and very disappointed in his lately acquired arrogance. Don't leave this forum. I'm sure there are many reloaders like us that have learned the hard way, know what has worked for us, and prefer not to get into BS discussions like the one you're in. You're right, there is a cult that seems to believe he is God. I can name several posters here who KNOW what they're talking about and would agree with you. And me."


And its not just me MD, I have read other comments in reloading forums about you. And you need to BACK OFF and rethink your approach in this forum when talking to other people. Because if you don't your headed for a down hill slide that you will never recover from. So rethink what your douchebag buddies are dragging you into and doing to your image MD.

Amazon reviews are like ass holes, anybody can show theirs. And one rotten one proves nothing.

Kind of like your posts.

Yes. It addresses the issue being discussed here. It could be what your referring to if it's the carbide floating ball expander pin assembly.

Did the reviewer consider that a person who's already checking/turning necks, monitoring runout, et cetera isn't the intended audience?

Is a book on advanced calculus, a subject likely well beyond what 99% of people know about math, a bad book because I'm already conversant with what's within its covers?

A wise man is frequently humbled, and a douchebag just keeps sticking his foot in his mouth.

The really sad part is the moderator left this forum because it smelled so bad here. smokepole try a vinegar douche and your breath won't stink as bad.

What does calculus have to do with you being a douchebag.

And you are part of this five page douchefest and the intelligence and oral hygiene hasn't improved any in this posting.

And sorry, I have to go now, I have 500 5.56 Lake City case to prep and resize. But before I forget mathman do you use vinegar when douching, I mean wet tumbling with SS media.

Calculus itself wasn't the point you dullard.






Obtuse, it's not just for angles anymore.

You seem to be intimately familiar and obsessed with douches. Why am I not surprised.

I think we have seen what this poser is here for - gunning for JB, thinking he is going to have a trophy. What John said in his first post did not warrant this assinine display of a mental case. I do believe we have Larry's brother here.

little ed, you remind me of a petulant school boy that wants so much to be liked and thinks he can get that by being numeral uno. We do not work that way here, we do get crabby with one another but trade in ideas or answers in a generally respective manner. Obsessive/compulsive does not work on this site.

Back off the net, go play in your basement and then go find a friend face to face. And for your own good, get some Valium.

Your not surprised because a forum member here with 3246 postings in this fun filled forum decided to start the douching.



And then "someone" with 15427 postings here decided he was intimately familiar and obsessed with douches and added his 2 cents.


So now you know smokepole you were the second douchebag to douche in this douchefest.

What a shame, you were doing so well in your first post and even stayed on topic. And now your just another douche with a oversized ego like your buddy MD. (Mule Droppings)


Makes me wonder what the heck they are burning in the campfire here that's effecting so many people? It must be pure horseshit.

Mr Bigedp51,

You haven't gotten off to a very good start have you. This is a hunting, shooting, gun, and other-things-related website where folks come to chatter about the same. And quite a lot of them too--I haven't looked lately but maybe 40-50,000 members--so, it's quite a popular website where there are a lot of very knowledgeable, skilled, and otherwise interested people sharing information.

You obviously know something about hand loading, probably very much, maybe a lot more than I do though I'm going on fifty years of filling brass too. But what you don't seem to grasp is where the line is between affable disagreement and dogmatic knuckleheadism. And what's more you are either apparently completely unaware of when you "cross over" or you simply don't care. The second is a little more problematic for getting along here.

As to MD, though he doesn't need any defense from me, I'll chime in anyway. The guy is encyclopedic for "this stuff," but even more, as to this site, he's has shown himself to be patient, and generous with his time. I've met him personally and communicated with him here often and I would call him a gentleman. On my Forster Arrogance Inspector, there is no run-out with him that I've detected.

My advice for "some brass and case polishing and refurbishment" would be to post here again, subdue your lofty opinion of yourself a bit, and come in for a soft landing Mia culpa. This advice comes not even at the traditional $.02 charge; it's free.

I'm not the one who started it. I just pointed it out.

Mule Deer is a good fella no matter how you shake it big ED. You are obviously an ass hole and here to pick a fight. Posting pics of the books you read was fugging epic and won't be topped anytime soon. Now run along and GFY.

Yep, I didn't start it either, I was just responding to one of his gems:



What a moron. Go read some more books and regurgitate the stuff to someone who won't know the difference.

Ed,

I am not sure why the need to run down JB. I met him here on the Campfire, years ago. We were discussing the virtues of a 204 Ruger against a 220 Swift in a prairie dog field. Unlike you, I was able to engage in a discussion of why one was better than the other.

Few people here have shot more varmints than I have and I was still eager to learn how a 204 was the best prairie dog cartridge. JB and I met and went to a prairie dog field and shot prairie dogs.

I can tell you a few things:
He doesn't hit every prairie dog, but neither do I
We had a great day and he listens as well as talks
He does know a lot about the entire shooting industry
He will forget his ammo on occasion
He never talked to me like I was stupid

We have become good friends and I haven't bought into the 204 stuff and doubt I ever will. That doesn't change a thing about being able to share a day shooting or discussions about guns and ammo etc.

He has been recognized by his peers in the writing industry and has received some real prestigious awards accordingly. Whenever I have a question, I can call John and get all the technical data I want without having to look it up. He has helped me to be a better shooter and has asked nothing in return, he can gain nothing by knowing me.

This isn't gratuitous back patting, it is the truth. Why you continue to run John down gains you nothing and hurts no one but yourself. If you feel bold enough to contact me through a PM, I will gladly talk with you about the whole issue and it is bigger than can be discussed on this forum.

Waiting for your next move...

shrapnel and George_De_Vries_3rd

I didn't come here to be insulted by anyone and that's all Mule Deer has done from my first post telling the OP to remove his expander. Guess what, the OP removed his expander and his runout was cut in half.

Now go back and read the thread from the beginning and read each of Mule Deer's reply's. "NONE" of my initial posting were wrong or out of line to deserve Mule Deer's overbearing caustic replies. And Mule Deer's actions here turned this simple runout posting into a train wreck where only his replies mattered.

Mule Deer's comment below was the last straw.

"Several times in this thread I've demonstrated what you've posted is irrelevant or wrong"

And my reply to Mule Deer is "BULL $HIT", the OP removed the expander and the runout was cut in half. And this procedure is called trouble shooting.

If your Mule Deer's friend then find out what is eating at him and causing him to act the way he is. When you read the PM that was sent to me you will "SEE" I'm not the only one who thinks something is wrong with Mule Deer and he is acting strangely. And this isn't the way for any gun writer to act anywhere.

The ball is now in your court and if you want to fix the real problem then find out what is eating at Mule deer.

Sorry eddie, the subject matter changed, changed by yourself in bringing all the attention to yourself like a little whore.

Understand that better?

If you had let it go with your first remark of taking the stem and expander out and checking the case there would be fewer pages and the OP would have learned a heap more.

And to add to others, I have followed JB for many years, from the 70's I think it has been now. He hasn't been my only source of information but I trust what he says as taking much of his advice has made my shooting life and hunting life much more enjoyable than it would be otherwise.

I really would like to know this - what is the problem that someone is recognized as being knowledgeable, and what is the problem of someone being a fan or follower?

Anyway, JB has given me a lot based on his working and not regurgitating what has already been written by repeaters. You, well, not so much and from your cut and paste, probably never.

Want to continue being the class douche? Well, good luck with that, though you do seem to handle it well with out the luck.

Not true.

The train wreck occurred right after you drove up.

For a Fire newbe, you sure take up a lot of bandwidth.

DF

Ed,

If you are intent on establishing dominance, I suggest you head over to the Hunting Rifles or AR & Tactical Rifles subforums and challenge Big Stick.

Wear your big girl panties when you do.

ed has mastered the "I'm a victim" mindset beautifully. Insecure people do this a lot.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Winston Churchill

Welcome to my world. I have been told more than once I wasn't relevant, I have lost bets to John, but undaunted, I prevailed. I have also won bets with him and he has always paid off in good humor.

You, Ed, for your reasons only, will never see this side of John, my guess is you won't see it with many people at all. The common denominator in that equation is you, not John...

Sort of like if the first person you meet in a day is an a$$hole, he might be an a$$hole.

But if you're meeting a$$holes all day every day, then ...

At your suggestion, I went to Amazon to get the crappy reviews on John's writing. You were reading something other than the reviews I saw....

This is not a "how to" book, nor does it claim to be. One of the promoters for the book claims you must read it twice: once for fun and twice for information. His comment is spot on. Each chapter takes the form of a story but each is also laced with tips and tricks to hunting if you read closely. ...
Read full review

Damn. If ever someone needed to be nuked, little eddie is the one.

Don't feed the trolls.

Sorry shrapnel for not being clearer, I asked you to read the quote a member here sent me in a PM.

And I just lost my third attempt here to post, a reply to you and the rest of the forum. There is something wrong with both Explorer and Chrome and this website and today every attempt at posting has crashed with the loss of everything. I'm going to write everything in Microsoft Word and try to cut and paste a longer reply.

Save yourself the trouble.

DF

Just to change the subject.

DF yep, I know. But old eyes are a challenge all to themselves.
And I have never been one not to embarrass myself with dignity, class, and a handy paper bag to put over my head.

Yep, the subject would benefit from a major redirecting...

DF

OK I will save myself the trouble, you see I went to the grocery store today to get the fixings to make chili and stopped by the magazine rack to pick up some reading material.

And you smart ass and everyone else who didn't even post anything to help the OP will never know what beans and the reading material below have in common. All of you would have enjoyed it but now we are back to the same old fecal debris and you idiots can kiss my backside.



Sorry shrapnel you have too many midgets here sitting at their computers pretending to be giants and this was the last straw.

That's a mighty tall, er, I mean wide order ain't it ed?

Holy phlucking sheep chit, seems the best part of you ran down your mama's leg! Wow something is definitely out of whack in your head.

I think the word you are searching for is Narcissism.

The OP no longer wants any help.

Thank you all.

I think the OP has enjoyed about all he can stand of this thread! I get the sense he would like to see it go away...

He's not the only one...

To the OP: It may have started with your question, but definitely was not your train wreck...

DF

You're welcome. And next time, go easy on stirring up trouble....

Sorry to see you go, I was hoping you would stay around and see how much Saddam Hussein's cat enjoys neck sizing.



The problem in this forum is you have so many people here that would bitch if even if you hung them with a new rope.

And here I thought it was you....

Dirtfarmer, would you show the forum the posting where you gave so much help and advice to the OP on neck sizing.

And here is your business card, you dropped it on page two of the posting.

You just can't give it up can you...



I'll repost this:

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Winston Churchill



DF

Oh come on Dirtfarmer the OP didn't ask Winston Churchill for advice on neck sizing. So just be a good sport and show us the posting where you helped the OP fix his problem. You can do it, I know you can, after all you made so many posts in this thread one of them has to be about neck sizing.

Just show us something, anything here about reloading, I mean six pages and and 135 replies in this thread so you "MUST" have said something about neck sizing.

Winston Churchill

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few"

that's a great pic!


i'll add my .02 worth too--John is a really super guy--and very easy to visit with. over the past few years, i've had calls from guys all over the country, and without fail most all of them comment on how much they respect his writings. he is a top-notch professional...

(scrappy shrap is super too--but it's a given, as we've known each other for about 50 years...)

Neck dies rarely produce straight necks......
Having said that, I have two Redding neck dies (243 and 308), both manufactured in the late 80's, that produce very straight necks. I use the 243 die on 3 different rifles, with WW and Noz brass, and it makes straight necks with both brands of brass and all 3 rifles.

I have no idea why those two dies seem to be the exception..........

Casey