The vast majority of my hunting could easily be done with a 30-30, rarely do I shoot as far as 200 yards. Why not build a nice 2700 fps load with a C&C bullet and be happy. I know a lot of you hardcore hunters don't shoot any farther than I do most of the time so why push that monometal bullet at 3350 fps?

After seeing granddaughter shoot deer with a 243 out to 250 yards I began to wonder myself. I have a Creedmoor now. I have killed a few pigs with it. I’m going to deer hunt with it this fall. A 25-06 is all that’s needed for deer. They aren’t hard to bring down.

I have a safe full of 🔥 fire breathing magnum rifles. I’m over gunned for deer hunting. I don’t load those hot anymore. I never saw the point in loading max.

Who wants to brag about a 2700 fps load with .....gasp.... plain old C&C bullets. Everybody knows that that combo can't kill any thing bigger than a rabbit, just can't penetrate the Kevlar and ceramic armor of modern big game especially at the 1000+ yards typical of today's shots 8-[[;-)

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My son killed a cow (elk) at 200 yrds with a 7-08 at 2750 fps with a Hornady 139 IL. Must have died of fright from the muzzle blast, ya think.

I don't...

Often I like heavy bullets at 2700-2800 fps -- 180's out of an 06 for instance. Penetration to the vitals is never a problem, meat damage is not excessive and if a heavy bone is hit, the bullet will still keep going. Granted I've probably shot a good percentage of game while they were running so bullet placement isn't always exact. I climbed into a hunting stand once while deer hunting, don't plan on ever doing that again.

Choice of cartridge, bullet, velocity etc. depends a lot on where you are hunting, how you are hunting etc.

If I am hunting in wide open spaces on western ranchland or if I'm hunting in thick woods or draws or still hunting or sitting on an hillside -- deer hunting is fun everywhere, but there's times when a 25-06 is better than a 30-30 and there's times when a 30-30 is better than a 25-06.

The biggest center fire jacketed cartridge/bullet I've used is a 180 grain in a 300 Winchester Magnum. The smallest was a 55 grain 22-250. With the 180 grain 300 the deer ran 100 yards, with the 22-250 the deer dropped instantly. The only bullet failures on deer I've experience was a 120 grain bullet in a 264 and a 165 grain bullet in a 30-06, in both cases a 170 grain 30-30 would have worked better, I'd bet.

Ever since I started handloading in the early 70's I have loaded mostly middle of the data never seeking to attain or surpass maximum loads. I have always gotten the accuracy I was seeking with these loads and the performance on game has been fine. My deer rifle is a .35 Whelen which for years I have shot 225gr. bullets. Since having shoulder surgery I have gone to a 180gr. Speer flat point bullet, accuracy is fine when loaded to .35 Remington velocities.

There is more people than thought, feel you don’t need 6000 fps to knock down a deer or pig.

I use both approaches. The spots where I can see less than 200-250yds, I often do hunt with cup/cores at moderate speeds. It's just point and shoot. The zipping mono bullets really come into play when you might take that same rifle out in the open and want to take a quick shot at an undetermined range. Plus, I sometimes just like to play with new bullets so I can gather for myself what might work well and what doesn't. It's interesting to me. My 260 is shooting 100gr TTSX's at 3,200fps this year, not because the 130NAB/2,880fps load didn't work well, but because I want to see how the 100's perform on game.

Oh, sometimes I'm real happy with a low-velocity load. Something like a .30-30, .45/70, .50 cal traditional muzzle loader, revolver...

Or even a more powerful center-fire rifle loaded to 2600 - 2750 fps. I've killed game just fine at 300 yards, with a 2620 fps muzzle velocity.

But sometimes, when I know the ranges are likely to be longer, I don't mind loading 'em up at all. Accuracy is more important than big numbers on the chronograph, but I do like keeping my 25-06 loads at or near max level. Makes a nice flat trajectory, makes hits out at 300 - 400+ yards pretty simple.

Guy

In my country speed is my friend.. Not true everywhere.. But here it is!! Some places the 30-30 is all that is needed.. When I was a kid the best deer hunter I knew used a .35 Rem.. but he had a .300 H & H for those times a long shot was neeeded..

Not one to push it to the floor myself, but also don't fret over what the other kids are doing for fun.

I think 7000 is the minimum for elk. With a monometal bullet. And 75 mm objective on your scope. And 30" barrel.

Or maybe not <G>

You're probably onto something!

..................Well in your case and others you mention where hunting situations do not exceed 200 yards you bring up a valid point. So why load even up to 3,000 fps let alone 3350 fps given those hunting circumstances?

Simple...... Because we can and curiosity to see what max MVs our rifles can produce while maintaining acceptable hunting accuracy. That said, it does not always mean that max or near max hunting loads are used.

I used to load to squeeze every fps of velocity I could out of a round. I'd read that a .30-06 could hit 2900 fps with a 165 grain bullet so I kept pouring in IMR4350 until the chronograph read 2900, never mind that folks next to me thought I was shooting a .300 WM from the muzzle blast and the rifle kicked like a mule.

But, generally speaking, those last few fps are going to cost you increased pressure all out of proportion to what you get. Adding another 50 fps when you're near the top already could add another 5 to 10 kpsi.

I finally wised up and realized the reverse is also true. In a typical big game hunting type round you can lose 5 to 10 kpsi and only lose 50 fps or so in the bargain, and those few fps aren't going to be missed at all. I know those numbers are generalities and individual rounds and rifles will vary some, but one can make the blanket statement that all kinds of good things accrue when you back off just a tad - brass lasts longer, you're farther away from the ragged edge of safety, etc. - and it only costs you a minute change in trajectory, not anywhere near enough to be noticed on a cervidae species within the "normal" ranges at which they're actually taken.

I like to start my load workup with a desired bullet and look for the most accurate load that jibes with the design of the cartridge/case. If I want a slower load, I find I'd rather go with a heavier, usually roundnose bullet. I want my loads to work in the field, come hot or cold as reliability/accuracy are my main goals. I'd rather hunt with a load that does that at 2950 and 1.25" than a 3100fps load and .5" but bolt lift gets 'sticky" sometimes. Nope...I keep waiting for the "herbivore wave banzai charge" and I want to be ready!

For deer rifles I usually aim (pun intended) for a MV of around 2750fps. That gives adequate energy out to 350 yards and decent trajectory. BUT if I can't get acceptable accuracy at that MV I will go faster as long as the cartridge/bullet combo allows it.

When I head out to hunt here locally, I'll take two different rifles. One will usually be my 358 Win for the 'short' shots and the other will either be a 6.5 Swede, 25-06 or the 264 Win Mag for the longer stuff. When I head to the mountains for elk I take the 264 and the 358.

And that extra 50fps we just had to have with that 165gr .30cal bullet, well, it is the difference between a 70yd impact velocity and a 90yd impact with that load. I'm sure the deer notice a huge difference. I often couldn't tell you if the animal I just shot was at 70 versus 90..... So yeah, you have a valid point there.

Geez, guys, don't you know that if you refuse to the absolute max the rifle can stand (published data be damned) then you're not a real man?

Absolutely!

PO Ackely XXI

My 338 RUM will shoot a 300 gr Berger @3000 fps. (loooong bbl). It's the minimum for deer as "everyone" knows you can't kill anything with a 257 Bob.

usually 2 clicks or so on the scope elevation will compensate for not having that last 100 fps...

but that would be unmacho....

I have an inferiority complex that I make up for by bragging about the size and power of my loads. Next question?

I guess it all depends on where I'm hunting. My New Mexico elk hunts have given me shots from 100 yards to 350 yards and the 225 gr. TSX at 2700 FPS from my .35 Whelen has been more than sufficient.
If I put in for elk here in Arizona, fat chance of drawing a t tag though, one area I'm familiar with is area 1 which is right next to the White Mountain Apache reservation. At the first shot opening day the elk head for the rez and those that don't stay way out in the very large open parks requiring some serious long range shooting. I got lucky one day several years ago and got a shot at a cow elk at 530 yards laser measured. I used a .300 Win. Mag. with a 200 gr. Speer Hot Core loaded to the max that the 26" barrel could handle safely. One shot, one cow elk. Lots of pre-season practice and a bit of luck worked for me on that one.
Paul B.

I can see loading hot in that situation.

What does that have to do with cartridges?

In my first .270 I found a Hornady 150 gr spire point or Remington core-lokt at 2,650 using H-380 was more than adequate with out excessive meat damage from a 130 gr moving 2950.

It looks like an '06, it performs like a Magnum....

I just like mine to be in the proper velocity range of the cartridge. I've found several times over the years that published book loads give me real world velocities that are more in line with a cartridge size smaller than what I'm shooting. Happened with a 7Mag that chronoed at 280Rem speed, a 25-06 that chronoed at 257 Roberts speed, and currently my 280Rem is running at 7mm-08 speeds. I found full speed loads (not super-hot) for the 7Mag and 25-06, now I'm looking forward to finding that full speed 280 load.

You don't know what the last FPS is until you get there. Then you can decide what to do with it.

Interesting point (going all existential on us . . . . )

If that's all that was needed why would they buy a chambering capable of the higher speeds?




Dave

Funny you should mention that. I was big on Camus, less so on Sartre. I guess it shows. Who knew?

Over half the elk I've ever killed were less than a 100 yds. It's not about the speed or the bore size, but the it's all about the bullet. C&C bullets generally don't cut it where and how I hunt big game. There are exceptions. My son did kill a bear a few weeks ago and will be using the same NBT load for pronghorn in a couple months. I'm getting lots of speed too, but most likely well under max load. I could go faster, but am thrilled with the accuracy and not about to screw with a good thing..........

Pick your poison for the need.

Sometimes a .45-70 Government

Sometimes a .338 Lapua

We live in great times.

Why not?

One thing to keep in mind.. In Tx. Where rickt does his hunting, deer are mostly shot over bait.. Nothing wrong with it, but it makes for short range shooting..

Little bullets going fast knock the wet right off of deer. Do you shoot slow sheit, yep. But I've yet to see stuff put deer down like they do when hit with bullets going fast and spinning fast.

I load for best accuracy, most of the newer powders shoot best at pressure, so if its speed is in reloading guidelines that,s where I stop.

This is much the same as my method. I usually pick a suitable powder than work up to listed velocity. As long as things are looking OK I'll usually work up using the chronograph to those velocities.

Some rounds track closer with listed load data than others. One round that's particularly frustrating is the 7mm rem mag. The book data is all over the place and hasn't agreed with the velocities I've gotten in any of the several 7mm rem mag rifles I've loaded for. Most of the book data for this cartridge is quite frankly garbage and almost useless as a reference, I've seen listed maxes for the same bullet/powder combination differ by 7 grs. between manuals. I loaded for two of them this year and worked up loads over a chronograph using H1000. I found a very accurate load for one rifle using 160 Accubonds at 3000 fps and for the second rifle using 145 Barnes LRX's at 3200 fps, good full house loads that worked great on a couple of elk.

Quite franky I don't really see the point of downloading velocities in most modern centerfire rifles. Bullet weight has a lot more effect on recoil than powder charge so downloading a heavy bullet is only going to give marginal recoil reduction. Better in my opinion to go to a lighter, well constructed bullet and keep the velocity. When I was loading for a relative's young son I used 100 gr. nosler partitions in his 260 remington at 2800 fps. Not a full house load by any means but the recoil was almost non-existent and he killed truckloads of deer with it. My own 6.5x47L that I use for deer gets loaded with 100 gr. TTSX's at 3000 fps, you can watch the impact through the scope it kicks so little and it kills like lightning. I don't see what's to be gained by going to a lumbering heavy bullet at slow speeds, it's going to kick more and certainly isn't going to work any better

I don't see the attraction of downloading cup and core bullets. Even premium bullets are still incredibly cheap when compared to the money most of us spend on hunting. I've had such great service out of Partitions, Accubonds, and TTSX's that I can't see not using them to save a couple of bucks over the course of a hunting season. When I load for a prairie dog shoot bullet cost becomes a factor, but for big game the cost of premium bullets is just a rounding error.

2650 FPS With out excessive meat damage. Amen!

Micro action Bolt action6.5 Grendle for me in recent years. 129 grain core lock over LVR propellant, yeilding 2600 to 2700 works just fine for my deer hunting needs.

I hunt several states every year, usually Texas, Oklahoma, Wyoming and Colorado depending on where I draw a tag. I do a lot of hog hunting at night which is under 100 yard shooting. I hunt timber generally for deer where 100 yards is still a pretty long shot. In fact a shotgun with buckshot would work for half of my deer hunting in Texas. Oklahoma is a bit different, more open but still a long shot would be 250 yards. I have fast rifles also but tend to use them where they are appropriate like antelope or open country elk. I like the Whelen for a lot of elk hunting but have a 300 Win mag for the really long shots which to me is out to 450 yards.

I'll dump an .5 for an extra 100 fps.

If you've actually hunted antelope in Wyoming and Colorado, then you know the answer to your OP.

Chronograph should be the first thing a reloader buys.

Max loads out of a given book don't mean schit.



Clark

Tripod or pedestal mounted in the back of the truck?

At the time I started reloading in 2001, I had not shot a deer farther than 30 yards out. To me, reloading was an opportunity to produced reduced loads that fit that environment. What I found was that beyond lower recoil, I was also loading rounds that were more accurate than factory.

My goal has always been loading for the next notch down: make a 35 Whelen that shoots like a 358 WIN, a 30-06 that shoots like a .308 WIN, a 308 Win that shoots like a 300 Savage and so on.

Back when I started, I was doing most all of deer hunting from treestands with a bow. Rifles were just an extension of that. I had to give up the bow in 2007, and now I shoot rifle exclusively. Over the past 10 seasons, I've gradually stretched out. My longest is now 170 yards. My son, shooting the same loads took one at 253 yards last year.

Because it is fun? Be happy -- you said it.

Some people hunt in the hills and wooded areas, 200 yards might be on the far side in these situations. Here in the stubble field desert shooting often starts much further than that. I guess the flatter you shoot around here the better.












Happy trails

I worked up a few loads for my 6.5 swede with the 147 eld, reloader 26, Ramshot Magnum, last night that I'll be testing this afternoon. Go figure my target velocity is a suck 2700 fps. I hear they bounce off mule deer at 400, 500 yds but anything more than just trying to scare the animals away from the 3300 fps crowd would just be mean.☺


Trystan

I have hunted Antelope in Wyoming and used 270 and 30-06 rifles. Those rifles not being the endall as to velocity sure seemed good enough for the job. Typically I hunted around Sarasota, south of Superior and near Farson. I have found that 3000 fps works very well for long shots with a properly shaped bullet.

I live on the prairies and long range hunting is just a fact of life. Long range shooting and formal target shooting is a hobby all in itself, and inevitably my most consistent long range loads have the pressure right up there.

Bullets have different results at different velocities with many going from spectacular to ordinary to dismal as the ranges get longer. If you can push spectacular out another 100 yards in the same rifle why wouldn't you want to do it? Then there's cold weather. Its bad enough that velocity drops in the cold and the air gets heavy, but many loads go to crap when the pressure drops as well. Some of my favorite rifles have summer and winter loads both of which are hot.


Even my moderate velocity cartridges used in appropriate areas are loaded hot or right up there.

Get a good scope with ballistic reticle and target turrets, and learn how to use them...
sorta eliminates the need for the last possible fps...

but then recall that 90% of game is taken under 100 yds and 99 % is taken under 200...
or at least so I've read multiple times from multiple sources...

a good bullet BC helps also if you are shooting way out there...
and knowing how well your bullet will open at those distances...
as they all have a performance window....

just a thought

Some people like all the muzzle blast they can get.

This probably saved my butt years ago. Was loading the 8mm 180g NBT over R-22 in my 8mm Mag. I was 2 full grains (86.0g) below Nosler book max (88.0g). but was getting over 200fps over book max. velocity (3283fps). First case showed zero pressure signs, so I thought chrono error. No way that was 3500fps. So I sent another round down range. It also clocked 3500fps. That case showed a very flattened primer. I quit, went home and knocked down all the remaining loads. Turns out I had some of that HOT R-22 batch.

Well this year I think I will run my 257 Roberts at 2700 fps with a 120 gr. Sierra BTHP and my 308 will get by with Monarch 150 gr. factory loads. If I find any velocity induced issues I will report them. My crossbow is screaming along with a hot 355 fps, won't try to slow it down!

Umm...'cause it puts money in yer wallet and adds inches to yer dingus?

There's not a thing wrong with looking for the best velocity performance you can get, but giving up accuracy to get it IS a bad trade-off. That said, I don't get a rifle in .264 Mag and run it at .260 Remington velocities looking for accuracy. I want .264 velocities. If it shoots my 140-grain Accubond at 3050 with great accuracy, that's fine...I'm not going to fret over 50 or 100 fps. If I get 3150 and accuracy, great. If it only wants to shoot at 2800 fps, that's a NO-GO and I'll look for another route. A demand for velocity can be reasonable, or it can be unreasonable.

This in spades. Back in the early '70s i went to the trouble of designing and building a chronograph because the manuals were not half as good as they are now. When I am working uploads I never do it without the chrony. 9 times out of ten I am not at all concerned that the numbers meet some expectation. What I need is to see that the numbers are somewhere reasonable, and move reasonably.

First thing to buy, but last thing to use once developing a load...

get what is accurate..

then use to chrono to see what kind of velocity its giving you...

I prefer that, over chasing velocity, then trying to make the load accurate...

Seafire,

Why do testing for accuracy and velocity have to mutually exclusive? It's easy to test both simultaneously.

Having received loading data from John (Seafire) on a couple occasions in the past it's pretty clear to me he does do both simultaneously. I would guess what he meant by that post is that he doesn't worry about the chrono during a workup. I think like me he is keeping an eye on the chrono for unexpected results.

I always start out shooting through the chrono to see how the loads are comparing with the data that they are based on. My goal is always to get a good compromise between factory standard for velocity and accuracy. The winner may not be the fastest nor the absolutely most accurate. It needs to satisfy whatever standard I have in my mind for the intended purpose.

I always use the chronograph when working up a load. As charges go up, so does velocity in a general linear pattern. Should something change in that pattern especially at or near maximum, then that's a good sign that it's time to back down a bit. So if say you're getting an average of 50 FPS per grain raise and the next reading is maybe 20 FPS higher rather than the 50 average, maybe a big 150 FPS jump up and even no change at all. You're at or past the safe max for that rifle. Time to back off a bit. it's worked for me for years so I see no reason to change.
Paul B.