For those that use small primers, does using them make a difference in how much powder it takes to get a given velocity?

To put it another way, if you find a good load using standard primers would you need to adjust the powder charge if you go to small primers?

Sorry, can't help. Have never used small-primer cases when loading either the 6mm or 6.5 Creedmoor. As noted in Ask the Gunwriters, I live in Montana where it can get very cold, and have even had problems with some powders in some cartridges with large rifle magnum primers.

A shooting partner and I did a SMALL test of this in 6.5 Creedmoor with the Pressure Trace and a chrono somewhat more than a year ago. There was not a noticeable (I don’t recall whether I did any statistical analysis, but if I did I didn’t save it) difference in pressure or speed between Lapua and Norma (SR and LR primers, respectively) cases with the same charge of 4451 under 140s, using Wolf SR magnum and Wolf LR primers. We did the test in quite moderate weather, neither hot nor cold.

THIS WAS NOT AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING TEST, NOR WAS IT EVEN A MODERATE-SIZE TEST. DON’T COUNT ON THIS RESULT WITH EVERY COMBO YOU MIGHT TRY. The Lapua and Norma cases we used were both non-ballon-head cases, meaning the bottoms of the cases are flat on the inside. Hornady cases, at least the ones I’ve always received, _are_ ballon-head, so there would be a capacity difference between them and the Lapuas that one would expect to make a difference in pressure.

I should note that a similarly small test using Win 748 and light varmint bullets showed me something that made me decide I would not use the SR-primed cases to hunt in cool to cold weather with a heavily-deterred propellant like that. In fact, I’m happy to stick with LR primers for all Creedmoor hunting cartridges. For match shooting, I wouldn’t care what primer size I used for most matches (unless it was going to be cold).

MZ5, thanks for the information. I'm assuming that any differences in case volume due to the ballon-head/non ballon-head would show up in weight differences, as would case thickness differences?

Not enough of a difference to go screwing around with small rifle primers and smaller decap pins in my dies.

Hmmm, smaller de-capping pins for all brands of dies? The one I'm using is a Redding Bushing die.

Yep, and its not just that they use small primers, the flash hole is smaller and can cause ignition problems.

You got to deprime eventually. For that, youll need a smaller decapping pin. Good luck finding them at your lgs. Btdt..

I haven't tried the Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor brass. However, I ran into the small flash holes with Lapua 6.5 Grendel brass; the flash holes were smaller than the decapping pin in my Hornady dies. The first pass through the die fixed that though, now they're all exactly the size of the decapping pin. I don't recall if I had to tighten the decapper down more than usual, but didn't have any other issues with it.
IIRC I did the same thing on that brass with a Lee 6mm PPC sizer die too; that one has the newer one piece decapping pin and didn't give me any issues at all to open the flash holes.

Has that worked for you in the Creedmoor brass, or have you tried?

Sure, but the trick is to know how much of any weight difference is due to which of those differences. An SR-pocket case of necessity has more brass in it, at least if it's non-balloon-head. So it's heavier because of that, but no more capacious.

The reason we chose to compare those Lapua SR vs. Norma LR was, in part, because they were both flat-bottom cases. I don't find it terribly tedious to measure the volume of fired brass, but I realize that we're all different in what we find tedious.

You're talking very cold weather I assume?? Hard to wrap my head around why a reputable company based in Finnland would go with a design that doesn't work well in cold weather.

Small-primer 6.5 cases weren't designed for hunting in cold weather. Instead they were designed for target shooting, for those shooters who firmly believe less primer flame can result in better accuracy, and especially for those who like to load to higher pressures, where the extra brass around the primer pocket results in less expansion. Thus making higher velocity possible.

But aside from biathhlon (which combines X-country skiing with rimfire shooting) most target shooting with centerfires takes places in more moderate temperatures.

Here is a great read on SRP vs. LRP with some velocity data you can compare smokepole.

http://alphamunitions.com/kaubers-corner-large-vs-small-rifle-primers/

Thanks MD and hig, great info.

I found this tidbit quite interesting. It’s not consistent with my experience.


Chronograph: MagnetoSpeed V3
In addition to the 10 test rounds of each caliber and primer size, I loaded an additional 10 to shoot without the MagnetoSpeed attached. What I found was the MagnetoSpeed shifted the point of impact generally high left .5 – 1.25 MOA but did not affect group size.

Wasn't it Tubb (he knows a thing or two) who says he found no difference in performance by using regular primers over the small ones?

Magneto adds almost a mil of elevation rather consistently in my experience.

I remember Tubb being pretty adamant that the 6xc needed large primers.

Higbean,

Exactly, In fact Tubb says on his website that tests proved LR rifle primers worked better, but doesn't specifically name the test.

There are several holes in the Kauber test, including the fact that10 shots isn't a sufficient sample for valid standard deviation in velocity.

Have also seen Magnetospeeds drastically affect group size, not just POI.

Good info. I love the MS chrono, but it most definitely does affect my groups and POI. That's the only negative I have with it.

Man I’m glad MD can still with repeating that over and over...

I put up the issue on small primer (great for bench with smaller powder columns for accuracy) - not so good for really cold (actually horrible) hunting loads.
Either way I couldn’t keep up this all the chatter on it..

Since my Creedmoor is a 257 Roberts, I can’t speek for the 6.5, but I just tried small primers in the Roberts and they keep falling out...

You tried a few times eh?

Maybe if you “REALLY” cram them in thier they will expand enough to hold


BTW - one of the only times I disagreed with MD... is when he said to think of the Creed as an “improvement” for the 260 (my 257 Roberts)...
It’s an improvement for a competition gun, but my 260 is my 300 and under hunting rifle... so it’s not too much “improved there”

Post edit - for those that didn’t pick up on it - I had to try really really hard to find something to disagree with MD on with the improvements the Creed has (otherwise I wouldn’t be building a 6 creed right now)... i.e. - my arguement is kind of BS.. Energey is Energy (my comparison)... yank’n MD’s chain a bit...
Personally I did love hating the creed... but it does have a bunch of benefits one should not ignore just because it’s fun to do so.



I’ll have to see if those small primers are loose in my 260 as well....

He did say it worked for the 6.5...

Convinced me, the Lapua is going back. I wouldn't have ordered it if I'd realized it uses small primers, but after reading how they tout it on their website figured I'd ask the question.

Spotshooter,

Good to know--though I have not "abandoned" either the .260 or 6.5x55. In fact I keep killing stuff with both.

But unlike many Campfire members, my job is NOT to resent any new cartridges. Instead it's to evaluate them, to the best of my ability. And have owned four 6.5 Creedmoors, and extensively shot three others. Sorry, but my conclusion is that it is indeed an improved .260--or 6.5x55.

Whether or not that makes any difference to you is obviously irrelevant, both to my professional life and your personal life.

The thing I don't get is the anger toward the 6.5 Creedmoor. From what I've seen, even on the always-aggressive Internet, nobody is DEMANDING that anybody give up their .260's, 6.5x55's or anything else and buy a Creedmoor.

If that's happening to you, would appreciate knowing who did, and will ream them out myself!

Kirk,

I actually saw a few boxes of .257 Roberts ammo on the shelf of a local gun store today!

Apparently you don't know that my family (not just me) has been shooting the .257 Roberts since 1953. I believe you were born that year?

Three generations have taken pronghorns at over 400 yards, really big whitetail and mule deer bucks, and several cow elk with the .257. In fact I killed a pronghorn at 350 yards just a couple years ago with the family heirloom .257. It works! (Oh, and Eileen killed yet another cow elk a couple-three years ago, which dropped on impact.)

Good to hear, once again, both personally and on the Internet, that you know everything about the 6.5 Creedmoor, despite never having fired one.

I'd personally run everything SRP.

Longer primer pocket life is a bonus when using spendy brass.

Makes for easier change over on my 550's as well.

Would be easy to source some factory Hornady brass for those cold hunting trips.

I'm loading these for a friend who's just getting into hunting. I'm getting the brass and loading it as a gift, and he doesn't shoot enough to wear out a hundred Creedmoor cases in a hurry.

He's going to use it to hunt everything including late season elk, and I don't want to be responsible for any cold weather problems, he hasn't killed his first one yet.

smokepole,

One of the interesting things about the 6.5 Creedmoor (along with some other rounds) is that LR primer pockets don't over-expand if you stick to pressure-tested data. But somehow many 6.5 Creedmoor handloaders can't stand the thought of not trying to turn their rifle into a 6.5-06....

Thanks John, you are mistaken, I never said I knew everything about a 6.5 Creedmoor, but you are right I never fired one. If you remember at the New Years party, Dober, Ingwe and I all agreed that we don't own and never will own a 6.5 Creedmoor. I feel that I am in good company no matter which way I turn...

I was very impressed with your 3-person vote of ignorance!

At first I ignored, then scoffed at, and then rejected the 6.5CM. I read one article from the crew who developed it and sought out a few more to read. Understanding their reasoning for the new offering made sense. Finally when premium bullets became reality - I had to have one or two. So now I have a caribou and cow elk in the freezer and two empty cases to reload. The increasing recoil sensitivity is no longer an issue either. Life is simple and the handloading shelves are showing some bare spots.

FWIW I was chasing accuracy in my .22-250 #1 (the one in my avatar) a number of years ago, and decided to try the small primer trick. That meant starting with .308 Remington BR brass(then available), and laboriously sizing, tapering, and trimming the brass in several steps, until I had small primer .22-250's.

On good days with its best loads with large primers, the rifle could keep 5 in a ½" at 100 yards, but I could see no difference using small primers - certainly not nearly enough to justify the headaches of making the brass. Maybe a top shooter with a heavy benchrest gun could see a difference, but I doubt most people will.

We're having an informal match at the Campfire Hog Hunt. Pretty good chance that a 6½ CM will win this year. Or, if his owner can shoot it, a .220 Howell

I don't get it either, but it is amusing when folks who vow to never get one feel the need to post their opinions on a Creedmoor thread.

Dober owns a 6.5 Creedmoor, it is a Tikka Lite. We discuss it all the time.

I don’t think anyone feels like they are being coerced into buying one, but my guess is that a shiny, new, better-designed cartridge suddenly makes whatever they’ve been using seem “worse” or inferior.

MD,

I was just yanking your chain a bit... I know enough that I love my 260 - but I do know it’s limitations on longer bullets and accuracy with those that the Creed fixes...

It’s hard to find anything to disagree with you on given you are dead nutz on ... but I gave it a bit of a whirl just for the fun of it (haven’t ever really disagreed with you before outside personal pref.)

Anyway - If I hadn’t had my customer 260 reamer on order I may have changed to 6.5 creed... but Lapua makes 260 brass so I’m all good.. and my spec’s are tighter than the SAAMI so all else equal my customer job will hold it’s own water even though the brass may not last as long. I customer throat my rifles as well... so I’m at a good spot with OAL in this case luckily.

Of course 90% of that would automatically go away if I used the Creed as is... maybe more, ...

At some point I do want to compare the Creed to the 260 to see which one is more finicky about loads... the 6XC was supposed to be easier to load than the 6 creed... but I went 6 Creed for my PRS rifle anway.

- i.e. I was just being a smart arse.

I do like the 6½ in the AR-10. It seems to me to be better suited to that action, and shoots a little more accurately than either of the .308's I own.

Interesting about the dies potentially not working with the SR primer brass. I'm lazy and switching to Lapua brass with the SR seems like way too much work, especially when the Hornady brass seems to be working so well.

As for the magneto speed, it doesn't move the POI much with my heavy barreled .308, but it moves it a whole bunch with my 84M. A good 4-5" at 100 yds.

Spotshooter,

I was yanking your chain back... :-)

As a hard-core rifle loony, it also baffles when shooters somehow feel they have to bash other cartridges in favor of their "own" rounds--especially when they've never even tried the other cartridges. This occurs regularly on the Campfire.

Personally I don't see any reason NOT to own rifles for various "competing" cartridges. In addition to one 6.5 Creedmoor (the 4th I've owned), I also own hunting rifles in such similar cartridges as the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, .260 Remington, 6.5x55 (two, including a "traditional" custom rifle on an commercial 98 action, with a stock made of European walnut), and 6.5x57R (actually a drilling, not just a rifle). With the exception of my other 6.5x55, a lightly sporterized Norwegian Krag-Jorgenson, I've hunted with all of them over the past few years. Also own two .257 Roberts rifles, one another tradition custom in process, a 7mm-08 and a 7x57. Have plenty of field experience all three cartridges, and in fact the 7x57 taken more big game over the past 15 years than all but one of my other rifles.

So far, I've found getting the 6.5 Creedmoor to shoot accurately is easier than with the .260 (am on my third .260; the first was a "modern" synthetic/stainless rifle built around 2000), and much easier than the 6.5x55, due to widely varying chambers in the old Swedish-Norwegian round.

My 6XC shoots extremely well, but it's another modern custom rifle, and I've only tried one 6mm Creedmoor so far, a factory rifle retailing for around $400. It shoots very well, but not like the 6XC, though would assume that's due more to the rifle, not the cartridge.

From what I'm reading here, at least 3 of us, and maybe more, that have done something resembling proper testing have observed or shown that Creedmoor cases need a large rifle primer for reliability and consistency in hunting or other cold-weather activities, and further that the only thing SR primers do is let you significantly overload the cartridge for longer before you destroy your brass. I don't understand why this would surprise people, but I'm glad the info is there for folks who want to know.

What, I never shoot in cold weather....

+1

The male ego can be a fragile thing, as is easily observable by 6.5 Creedmoor bashing on 6.5 Creedmoor threads by theoretically adult men who are Creedmoorless.

That was exhausting to write... :grin

My 6.5x47 was the most accurate rifle I ever owned... as long as the temps were above 20* or so.... then it was all over the place. Below 0* and the hang-fires made shooting it awful sporty. I tried all kinds of SR primers and couldn’t remedy the issue.

I see no reason at all to go to a SR primer in the Creed.

Agree with Josh...

Been there done that. After a two mile hike to get to a primo coyote call stand, on a -30F morning, and having two coyotes show up and stop less than 100 meters, only to hear "click" four times in a row, was enough to convince me it would never happen again...and it hasn't.

The rifle went "bang" on this -30F morning.

Rifle is a .260

LR for me,in everything greater than BR case capacity....................

That right there ^^^^,is the reason I don't and will never use a small flash hole'd sr primer in my creed.

What about Starline SRP brass with the normal .080 flash hole? Similar cold weather ignition problems or???


Roy

Why roll the dice?

What minor improvement in accuracy is worth the risk of significant inconsistency?

Likely save a guy bushing a 'pin hole too.

Hint...................

Great photo Scenar!

Question for you, do the cold weather misfires also happen with .223 size cartridges? I went out during a recent cold snap (-13 that morning) and took a .223. I didn't get a shot but was thinking as sat there freezing my butt off I should sell my 22-250 as I never use it anymore.

I have been using Winchester brand small rifle primers I bought a few thousand of a couple years ago.

I guess I should test it myself the next time we have a cold snap.

What some here arent getting, is its not just about using sr primers. Its the tiny flash hole some of these manufactures are using to cater to the benchrest crowd. A small rifle primer will work just fine in any small case, like a 223 rem, in damn near any temperature.

I agree you're probably right, but I'm still curious if you've tried just running that small flash hole brass through a die with a standard size decapping pin. I know with some dies it'll pull the pin out, but I was able to tighten mine enough to just expand the flash hole to normal (and very consistent) size. That was Grendel brass from Lapua though, so a little different.

Right I'm setting up to load for the 6.5 Creedmoor and one of the hoops I have to jump through is getting a bit of additional gear to accommodate the small primer, small flash hole Lapua brass. I didn't buy the brass empty, it is from Berger branded ammunition loaded with their 140 grain target hybrid bullets. Last Saturday I shot a box and a half through a brand new Rem 700 5R Milspec and it performed superbly. Whether I'm handloading this Lapua brass or any other I'll have my hands full equalling, never mind beating, this factory ammo.

Funny deal. I load my Creedmoor stuff with my 6.5x47 gold medal bushing dies. Has been working great. And use the seater from that set as well. And comes with small primer pin obviously.

The Berger 135 Classic factory ammo is very accurate in mine and it does make one wonder why we reload it.

Thankfully it doesn’t get that cold in Indiana because the Tikka 6 creed loves the factory Berger 105 hybrid ammo, as does the 6.5 creed with the Berger factory 135 classic hunter. I should buy a few more cases....