If I were to pay you $1000.00 per every deer size animal that went DRT after being shot in the shoulder or heart lung area... what would it be... Caliber... Bullet weight and design... and Speed... and Distance always plays a role.
Only 22-30 calibers... Please.
Without ...the usual neck- head-CNS shots...NOT even the perfect high shoulder shot...just the normal behind the shoulder or in the shoulder area. Shot placement goes without being said over and over because we all know that is important, but that doesn't always happen.
The BEST COMBO will NOT work every time because there are many factors involved with each kill scenario. BUT... there has to be one combo or even a few that shine the brightest.
A 100 lb Doe will react different than a 180 lb Buck... I know... seen it for myself.
I've watched Kids on Youth Hunts put deer down quick with 243 100 gr SP Factory loads...and they are NOT all precise shots either. One Kid dropped his Doe with a 100 yd shot that hit her mid body... right on the diaphragm line. A few days later I shoot a full grown buck in the proper behind the shoulder area, with the same rifle and load at 80 yds... and it runs 60 yds. No Blood... bullet did not exit, but was under the hide on the other side all mushroomed up.
My Quest is NOT about a better 243 load... but a BETTER all around caliber, bullet, and speed, for more consistent DRT Kills.
The Western Boys probably don't need a DRT kill because of having so much open country... but here in the South East... woods can become jungles with their thickets and clear cut areas.
If I could make a Grand on every DRT kill... then I'd always be taking out my 22-243 AI, because it usually always puts them down with 80 gr Amaxes at 3500 fps. Except for one doe that I shot at 40 yds on ground level that allowed her to run off about 35 yds... but the Blood... Oh My... the Blood was everywhere. I've never seen so much blood sprayed out through the woods on her other side. I had to measure the spray on limbs, and it was 12 ft of spray... two full arm lengths of spray... and the trail was a joke to follow because of so much blood. But when the shots are 70 yds and more..out to 300 yds... they all dump... haven't shot you further...YET. But then again.... I mostly shoot somewhere on the shoulder area with that caliber.
It's really my long range coyote rifle...that kills deer as well... but it's a tad heavy to tote, and not really a carry rifle.
I keep thinking that high speed, lighter for caliber bullets... on larger calibers... may go to the top of the list.
A friend of mine shoots deer in the mid body to save meat and usually always gets DRT with his 7RUM with 140 gr TSX @3200 fps... and those are not 7RUM speeds.
SOOOooooooo.... if you were going to get a Grand for every DRT kill... what combo would it be?????
I shot something like 17 deer with old-stock 150gr Ballistic tips at close to 3,400fps from a 26" 300WinMag and only one made a death run (of 10 yards or so). Those older bullets were pretty soft and it didn't seem to matter if I hit just ribs and lungs, their lights pretty much turned off when I pulled the trigger.
WOW.... JPro... that is a very good track record. Are you still using them or something else?
I moved on from that rifle when good LRF units became more readily available and I no longer needed the super-flat trajectory. It was really a lot of gun for our sub-200lb whitetails and it shot up a lot of meat. Did drop critters though....
Dan,
Here's the formula I use:
Pick the heaviest Nosler Ballistic tip your rifle can shoot at 3k+.
Above 3k, I generally switch to Accubonds.
NBT's at 3k, and Accubonds above are the closest thing I've found to "magic", DRT. Of course the big wound channel makes it easier to catch a piece of the CNS, which is the real key to turning anchoring your game in place.
A 257 Weatherby with a 100 grain Hornady Interlock is a pretty good lights out machine.
150gr Partition, 308 Winchester.
Why the arbitrary 22-30 caliber restriction? I've had more bang-flops with my 35 Whelen and 225gr Partitions than anything else.
I have been happy with the 270 Win.for years then built a 7x57 and it has done the same thing.
One with a 130 grain bullet and the other with a 139-140 grain bullet.
If after larger game than deer i just swap out the bullet for one just a little tougher.
Like the Barnes x or the partition.
If i just wanted to flip them i would use the 35 Whelen with 200 grain bullets.
After all those deer are not bullet proof.YET.
130 gr Partition out of the 270 Win has produced those sort of results a very high percentage of the time. 4 of 5 whitetails on the opening weekend were drt, the other made just a few yards.
I also have had excellent results with the 35 Whelen with Partitions as well as the 200 gr Hornady SP.
A friend from S Africa hunted with us the last 2 seasons using my Whelen loaded with 250 gr Partitions driven by Varget. His take was 2 bucks, 2 does, and a fox, all drt. He had never heard of the caliber before visiting, he kinda likes it.
Good things are always said about the 35 Whelen... but I don't have one...LOL.
Your bore size limit kicks out the two that I’ve seen the most DRT; the 35 Whelen and 350 Rem Mag.
308 with a 150 grain Sierra Pro Hunter, about 2850fps with shots at woods ranges which is about 40 yards and under around here.
This one doesn't fit into your parameters, but my 8x57 with 175 grain Sierra Pro Hunters at 2800fps does about the same.
I can understand the desire for deer to drop on the spot every time. I cannot begin to fathom trying to make that happen though. Making it happen is a matter of applying overkill to the degree that meat loss, substantial meat loss is as certain as can be accomplished. There is zero point in that.
Deer can be killed and dropped where they stand without wrecking a lot of good meat. Deer can be killed and dropped on the spot with minimal meat loss and very, very high consistency. Applying my 300 WM with 130-150 grain BT bullets can do the same thing but it's so close to wanton waste as to be indistinguishable to me
Deer shot properly are highly recoverable even when the is zero blood trail. Well shot deer rarely go more than 100 yards, and it does not take all that long to cover just over two acres of ground to find them. Most of them will be about 50 yards or less which leaves well under an acre to search. If you consider that you generally know the direction a deer went when it departed, that reduces the search area a bunch. I have recovered deer by flashlight in hyper dense aspen cuttings when they made it far enough to disappear and then mad a right angle turn.
If you are out the to shoot a deer to eat you're better advised to learn to find them after the shot. If you're out there to really put the smack down on Bambi to impress yourself or someone else, do us all a favor and find something else to do.
I can understand the desire for deer to drop on the spot every time. I cannot begin to fathom trying to make that happen though. Making it happen is a matter of applying overkill to the degree that meat loss, substantial meat loss is as certain as can be accomplished. There is zero point in that.
Deer can be killed and dropped where they stand without wrecking a lot of good meat. Deer can be killed and dropped on the spot with minimal meat loss and very, very high consistency. Applying my 300 WM with 130-150 grain BT bullets can do the same thing but it's so close to wanton waste as to be indistinguishable to me
Deer shot properly are highly recoverable even when the is zero blood trail. Well shot deer rarely go more than 100 yards, and it does not take all that long to cover just over two acres of ground to find them. Most of them will be about 50 yards or less which leaves well under an acre to search. If you consider that you generally know the direction a deer went when it departed, that reduces the search area a bunch. I have recovered deer by flashlight in hyper dense aspen cuttings when they made it far enough to disappear and then mad a right angle turn.
If you are out the to shoot a deer to eat you're better advised to learn to find them after the shot. If you're out there to really put the smack down on Bambi to impress yourself or someone else, do us all a favor and find something else to do.
Miles,
Much of what you describe is easier to do in areas where you and I are likely to hunt as opposed to these where the OP hunts.
If my intentions for this thread are being misunderstood... then I'm okay with taking it down... sorry.... My Bad.
Miles,
Much of what you describe is easier to do in areas where you and I are likely to hunt as opposed to these where the OP hunts.
Where I hunt deer can die in places you almost have to step on them to find them. An aspen clear cut can be so dense that you can clap your hands to your side and tip over and you wont hit the ground. A willow swamp is 4-5 feet of grass and brush up to ten feet. A deer two feet away can be impossible to see. I have literally found deer by crawling on my hands and knees until I bumped into them. Yeah, sometimes they run under a stand of maples and it's easy. Sometimes they run into a blow down area and you're sorry when you do find them. At deer camp we had a blow down and it was quite possible to walk a couple hundred yards and never touch the ground.
In my experience the deciding factor is the animal itself. I've seen deer DRT and I've seen them run 100 yards from the same shot placement, bullet, and cartridge choices. Some give up easier than others.
I’d have no problem earning a good living running a 100 gr Nosler Partition with a MV of 3250 plus out of one my 25-06’s inside of 300 yds.
In my experience the deciding factor is the animal itself. I've seen deer DRT and I've seen them run 100 yards from the same shot placement, bullet, and cartridge choices. Some give up easier than others.
This. Better to have an accurate rifle and CNS them if you want them dead where they stand. And, that has limitations that increase with distance.
My most frequent DRT combo was 270 Winchester with 130 grain Ballistic Tips, 0-200 yards, into the lungs. 20+ deer with 130 grain bullets, mostly Ballistic Tips, the ones hit in the lungs dropped immediately. In a sample of one, same deal with .243. Same with .260. A fast, fragile bullet in the lungs makes a deer drop.
Other rounds I have used include 35 Whelen, 458 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag, 30-06, and 8x57. These 'big' rounds seem to make the deer run, although not too far to find easily. The longest I have ever had a deer run was a broadside lung shot with 405 grain bullets from my 458. It made it 200 yards, farther than any archery shot, for me.
I read somewhere that heart shots are painful, making the deer run until dead. I think that is true from the deer I have seen shot.
For what you describe a 30-30 is hard to beat but it is totally dependent on the animal. I've shot blacktails that probably didn't weigh 110lbs as described with a 375H&H and had them death run 100 yards. DRT with a behind the shoulder shot is a crap shoot.
For what you describe a 30-30 is hard to beat but it is totally dependent on the animal. I've shot blacktails that probably didn't weigh 110lbs as described with a 375H&H and had them death run 100 yards. DRT with a behind the shoulder shot is a crap shoot.
If you want DRT, don's shoot behind the shoulder.....
I like the idea of larger caliber... knock'em in the dirt.... combos, but I hunt a lot of power lines, clear cut-over areas, and old logging roads, so the need for a long range DRT shot is necessary. My Quest started when shooting deer as they crossed over an old logging road from the woods and down into the swamp. If the deer did not drop in the road, then it was tough to not only find them in the swamp, but harder yet to pick the exact spot they were standing at the shot... especially in the 200-300 yd range. Those roads just looked like a looooooonnngggg tunnel or down a narrow tube with a deer standing in the middle of it. That was when I started using my 22-243AI on deer, because it was accurate enough to hit them way down there, and it did drop them on the road. And you sure don't need a deer running off through a clear cut area after being hit during the dim evening lights of the day. I have killed A LOT of deer the normal way... shot behind the shoulder... bullet passes through... leaves a good blood trail... find the deer. That has worked fine in many cases over the years for all of us, and that is okay if that is the only way it will work... but I want to open the envelope wider for a moment and make us all think for a moment that there may be something more than just the normal way.
I'm always thinking like this..." That works good... now what else might work better?"
The feeling that I'm getting from you Savoy Hunters is to use Big and Heavy for close range knock'em down kills.... or use 100-130 gr BT bullets for high speed Hydro static Lung Kills. I favor the latter because I really do think that I was born with a Western Long Range Heart, but got it's butt stuck in the East.
Of all the deer I’ve killed or seen killed, a 300wby with factory 165 spire points (Hornady Interlocs) @3400 FPS has been the stand out on dozens of mule deer with shots averaging 300yds. 180g Sierra game kings @3200fps seemed nearly as effective. The things is, I’ve seen what the bullets do in or near the shoulder at close range...and it’s ugly and penetration is limited. I don’t see as many DRTs with partitions or accubonds but they remain my choice for all around performance.
I like the idea of larger caliber... knock'em in the dirt.... combos, but I hunt a lot of power lines, clear cut-over areas, and old logging roads, so the need for a long range DRT shot is necessary. My Quest started when shooting deer as they crossed over an old logging road from the woods and down into the swamp. If the deer did not drop in the road, then it was tough to not only find them in the swamp, but harder yet to pick the exact spot they were standing at the shot... especially in the 200-300 yd range. Those roads just looked like a looooooonnngggg tunnel or down a narrow tube with a deer standing in the middle of it. That was when I started using my 22-243AI on deer, because it was accurate enough to hit them way down there, and it did drop them on the road. And you sure don't need a deer running off through a clear cut area after being hit during the dim evening lights of the day. I have killed A LOT of deer the normal way... shot behind the shoulder... bullet passes through... leaves a good blood trail... find the deer. That has worked fine in many cases over the years for all of us, and that is okay if that is the only way it will work... but I want to open the envelope wider for a moment and make us all think for a moment that there may be something more than just the normal way.
I'm always thinking like this..." That works good... now what else might work better?"
The feeling that I'm getting from you Savoy Hunters is to use Big and Heavy for close range knock'em down kills.... or use 100-130 gr BT bullets for high speed Hydro static Lung Kills. I favor the latter because I really do think that I was born with a Western Long Range Heart, but got it's butt stuck in the East.
Dan,
As you can imagine I do a good bit of long range hunting as well.
The best combination I've found for what you are looking for follows:
Custom 7mm STW with a 29": barrel.
Bullet 160gr Nosler Accubond.
Powder WC860, Max load of WC860.
Primer Fed215. Seems to be about the only one WC860 likes.
Muzzle velocity 3400 FPS.
At these velocities the 160gr Nosler front is highly explosive, so for lack of a better word, it has a huge "shock radius". Put it any where close to the CNS and you will get enough shrapnel and/or hydrostatic shock effect into the CNS to put them down where they stand. Anytime you play at distance, you are going to have some "sub-optimal" hits. In many instances this combinations turned those into an anchored critter. I typically hold high, where the lungs meet the spine. This maximizes the likely hood of a CNS hit, while still opening up the top of the lungs so fill up with blood. Hit low, you have a solid lung shot. Hit too far forward or back, still a CNS hit. Too high, clean miss. I might loose a little more of the back straps, but, there's no perfect shot, there's always a compromise.
I concur with the effectiveness of a STW loaded to potential with 160g accubonds. My Sako has had a number of DRTs....and a couple WTFs that still did the 40-60yd death run with essentially soup for lungs.
quote=antelope_sniper]
I like the idea of larger caliber... knock'em in the dirt.... combos, but I hunt a lot of power lines, clear cut-over areas, and old logging roads, so the need for a long range DRT shot is necessary. My Quest started when shooting deer as they crossed over an old logging road from the woods and down into the swamp. If the deer did not drop in the road, then it was tough to not only find them in the swamp, but harder yet to pick the exact spot they were standing at the shot... especially in the 200-300 yd range. Those roads just looked like a looooooonnngggg tunnel or down a narrow tube with a deer standing in the middle of it. That was when I started using my 22-243AI on deer, because it was accurate enough to hit them way down there, and it did drop them on the road. And you sure don't need a deer running off through a clear cut area after being hit during the dim evening lights of the day. I have killed A LOT of deer the normal way... shot behind the shoulder... bullet passes through... leaves a good blood trail... find the deer. That has worked fine in many cases over the years for all of us, and that is okay if that is the only way it will work... but I want to open the envelope wider for a moment and make us all think for a moment that there may be something more than just the normal way.
I'm always thinking like this..." That works good... now what else might work better?"
The feeling that I'm getting from you Savoy Hunters is to use Big and Heavy for close range knock'em down kills.... or use 100-130 gr BT bullets for high speed Hydro static Lung Kills. I favor the latter because I really do think that I was born with a Western Long Range Heart, but got it's butt stuck in the East.
Dan,
As you can imagine I do a good bit of long range hunting as well.
The best combination I've found for what you are looking for follows:
Custom 7mm STW with a 29": barrel.
Bullet 160gr Nosler Accubond.
Powder WC860, Max load of WC860.
Primer Fed215. Seems to be about the only one WC860 likes.
Muzzle velocity 3400 FPS.
At these velocities the 160gr Nosler front is highly explosive, so for lack of a better word, it has a huge "shock radius". Put it any where close to the CNS and you will get enough shrapnel and/or hydrostatic shock effect into the CNS to put them down where they stand. Anytime you play at distance, you are going to have some "sub-optimal" hits. In many instances this combinations turned those into an anchored critter. I typically hold high, where the lungs meet the spine. This maximizes the likely hood of a CNS hit, while still opening up the top of the lungs so fill up with blood. Hit low, you have a solid lung shot. Hit too far forward or back, still a CNS hit. Too high, clean miss. I might loose a little more of the back straps, but, there's no perfect shot, there's always a compromise. [/quote]
At times, I think there can be too much of a good thing. Many moons ago I acquired a 30-378 and loaded it to near max potential. I get into some big country and wanted serious reach and knock down power.
So, it's 180 grain Nosler Combined Technology slugs (a steel cup holding the rear portion of lead) and they leave right at 3,400 fps. To date it's done a moose, 3 caribou, and 4 elk. Nothing has taken more than a couple post shot steps.
My main concern though comes from 3 of the elk where I had the classic just behind the shoulder heart lung shots. Each of those clipped rib on the way in and never left a mark on the far side of the body cavity. Some would consider those premium slugs, but they are obviously exploding with not much in the way of penetration. Maybe just a bit too much speed. Animals die though, so I guess I have no serious complaints.
I do have a 45-70 but have not taken anything with that one yet. I suspect a 405 grainer moving at about 1,750 fps will give me a serious exit wound.
Good stuff Guys....VERY GOOD STUFF.... you got my Wheels spinning....LOL.
.300 Weatherby, 165 gr. Ballistic Tips, 3350 fps, absolutely deadly DRT killer.
270 winchester with a 150 grain speer hot cor.
So you Guys are saying that your choice of caliber and bullet for producing a DRT kills on the spot would make you a thousand dollars on the spot? What if you had to pay me $1000 for everyone that ran off...even 10 yards. Would your choices still be the same?
Isn't that the same question asked backwards?
LOL.... LOL.... I guess it is the same question.... but it makes it seem a little more serious if you had to pay out for a runner... then it is to not get paid for a non-dropper.
I mean.... come on now... if we had to pay out big money for a runner... then we would all be rethinking this whole concept about DRT Combos.
And this gives us all something to think about while stuffing ourselves on Christmas Cookies and Egg Nog.
I still have some empty deer tags that are good through Jan 1 2020... so I still have time to try out some new loads.
My Tikka 7 Mag has been doing it's Killing thing with 162 SST bullets around 3000 fps... and I have been very happy with it... BUT... I've had two good body size bucks run after being shot well in the shoulder area. One went 15 yds from a 140 yd shot. The other ran 40 yds after a 30 yd, steep angled downward shot from my 30 ft elevated tree stand position. Both bullets did not exit... nor did they bleed. Body searches. Everything before these have been DRT. I know I can't have a 100% killing combo, but it sure makes me wonder about going to a 120 or 140 gr bullet for producing higher speeds in order to create more shock and awe.
I know for a fact that there are higher percentage of DRT Combos that are hiding in our brains. Some have been posted here already... which is awesome and appreciated very much. Everything is being considered and documented.
Have you considered 50BMG?
If you want for sure DRT your only option is CNS shots so anything from a 223 on up that you can place precisely works.
I'm thinking I could make a lot of money with my 220 Swift and 55gr Hornady SPs.
My 264 with 125gr Partitions at 3300 has a pretty good track record
I've had a couple mule deer runners make 150 yds with the top half of their heart missing. Unless one breaks down the nervous system, mortal wounds still take a bit of time to work before the animal passes out.
We've had 32 straight DRT with the .280 AI and 120 grain Nosler BT at 3325 fps. Ranges from 15 yards to 300 yards.
.308 150 Nosler Partition or Accubond @ 2840fps. High shoulder CNS. Works for me, but that doesn't meet your conditions. High shoulder, because I hunt woods and swamp areas. I want them down, even if they are still kicking.
If I have to pay $1000 for a runner, I should be able to put the bullet in an area of my choosing.
Where you hit them trumps all.
So you Guys are saying that your choice of caliber and bullet for producing a DRT kills on the spot would make you a thousand dollars on the spot? What if you had to pay me $1000 for everyone that ran off...even 10 yards. Would your choices still be the same?
I think this question is dumber than the first one. I shoot a fair number of deer with a bow. It is not legal here to use a >22lr for deer, but if I could, CNS shots with any one of my target rifles could very well produce 50 dead deer out of a box of ammo. Every one of those would also be DRT deer.
The deer is the single most unpredictable part of the question. I have killed deer that were moving fast enough to travel 30-40 (ten yards or more) which disqualifies them from DRT.
Like I said, short of gross overkill there are no guarantees. And, there is no compensation for misplaced shots which can easily come from optical illusion tricking your eyes.
It sounds like I would lose a lot of money on some of you Guys with your DRT kills. We would all love to hear some success stories as well... after all... we are sitting around a Campfire...... aren't WE? LOL.
HillbillyBear... your post made me realize that I can easily get those speeds with a 7 mag and 120's.... and or... 25.06 with 100 grainers.
Smoken Stuff.... Lead on Fire
HillbillyBear... your post made me realize that I can easily get those speeds with a 7 mag and 120's.... and or... 25.06 with 100 grainers.
Smoken Stuff.... Lead on Fire
Either one of these will truly hammer deer.
Nothing is guaranteed, but I have dropped dozens and dozens of deer with lung/shoulder shots using 150 gr SST in a 30-06 running 3100 fps. My assumption on most of them is that shrapnel cracked or broke the spine.
I have 2 cousins that have killed hundreds of deer with 154 SST in a 7mmRM running as fast as you can safely
push them..... and then some.... They get a LOT of DRT kills and have killed more deer than many people have seen.
I'm sure anything similar would yield similar results.
25-06 and 100gr Nosler partition 3100fps. Since you have a 243 I'd go with 95gr Nosler partitions and save my money.
A 257 Weatherby with a 100 grain Hornady Interlock is a pretty good lights out machine.
I use 120 grain nosler partition
Back in the day, 7mm STW, first gen 140gr ballistic tips at 3600 fps, zero to 500 yards across a watermelon field, 150 depredation permits in hand, nothing else even comes close to those red tipped demons, DRT extraordinaire.
Hillbillybear said exactly what came to my mind when I read your question. The 120gr NBT is a very tough bullet that performs very well at 2500fps to 3500fps. The 6mm 95gr NBT from a 6mm rem would be another fine choice
Back in the day, 7mm STW, first gen 140gr ballistic tips at 3600 fps, zero to 500 yards across a watermelon field, 150 depredation permits in hand, nothing else even comes close to those red tipped demons, DRT extraordinaire.
Those were "hot" enough in a garden variety 7mm Weatherby.
Good things are always said about the 35 Whelen... but I don't have one...LOL.
If it's a question of what you already have that works best, then maybe it would help to tell us what you have?
I do agree with some of the other comments though - your arbitrarily restricted question means there's not much value to the discussion. In the real world, if I need a bang-flop result, I'm going to take a CNS shot like high shoulder, rather than expecting a magic cartridge/bullet combo to do it with a lung shot.
There is a MAGIC BULLET - CALIBER - SPEED COMBO.... maybe NOT a 100% Magic Combo, but one or more that produce more consistent DRT then other combos... we have already heard of many combos that sit on top, or near the top of the Totem Pole, with proven field success...that's why I'd like to hear their stories, because it can make a believer out of us all.
Seeing and hearing can produce believers out of the most skeptical.
The same old shoot'em ... follow the blood trail.. and recovery, is the normal and effective way... but it's boring. There is no challenge in the age old process that we all have followed for centuries... myself included. I don't see anything wrong with trying to make us all think about what might be the best combos out there. This whole thing might just be about the challenge of it all. We all love challenges.
Hydro static Shock is probably the BEST answer for DRT kills.... without that, then we might as well shoot FMJ.
LOL.... LOL.... I guess it is the same question.... but it makes it seem a little more serious if you had to pay out for a runner... then it is to not get paid for a non-dropper.
I mean.... come on now... if we had to pay out big money for a runner... then we would all be rethinking this whole concept about DRT Combos.
And this gives us all something to think about while stuffing ourselves on Christmas Cookies and Egg Nog.
How about give me a 223. If I can drop 10 in a row in there tracks you pay me $1000 if I can't I pay you $1000. Would you take that bet?
257 weatherby. 100 grain ttsx. Anywhere from 0-400 yards.
Sure think Trystan... you got a deal, but make sure you have video of it all for us to watch and to verify that they were not CNS kills... spine, head, neck, shots... but were all shot somewhere in the shoulder/lung area. This is all about DRT kills in that body area. Oh yes... don't forget about showing a normal average shooting distance... 50 - 250 yds... thanks... Get'r Done... LOL.
The 257 weatherby. 100 grain ttsx just HAS to be near the Top of the List.
I mean.... come on now... if we had to pay out big money for a runner... then we would all be rethinking this whole concept about DRT Combos.
Hunting Exotics, and African Plains Game. Exotics = any of the calibers listed but "very accurate/CNS or High Shoulder.
Plains Game = 300 WinMag 180 Barnes (smallest I used. Also used 35 WAI, 338WM, 340W, 375H&H,,, all monos) as close to 3100fps and "also" CNS/high shoulder. If they run off, you pay. Better be sure before you touch one off!
Hogs/pigs, I was raised to 'always" head/neck shoot them. For Texas whitetail, tight behind the shoulder, it was the 30-06 and 150gr ( either Corlokt or Hornady sp) My father was a survivor of the Great Depression and later, a WW2 Pacific Theatre vet. He did not believe in wasting any meat, He would give a stern lecture if you bloodshot any usable meat. He called the 30-30 "the Big Gun" for hunting and said the 30-06 ruined too da-- much meat, fit only for killing Japs. He meant it too, ha.
Sure think Trystan... you got a deal, but make sure you have video of it all for us to watch and to verify that they were not CNS kills... spine, head, neck, shots... but were all shot somewhere in the shoulder/lung area. This is all about DRT kills in that body area. Oh yes... don't forget about showing a normal average shooting distance... 50 - 250 yds... thanks... Get'r Done... LOL.
The 257 weatherby. 100 grain ttsx just HAS to be near the Top of the List.
And I get to bring the air horn. Running shots only.
Quote... I mean.... come on now... if we had to pay out big money for a runner... then we would all be rethinking this whole concept about DRT Combos.
Jim... I believe you got it... that is my whole thought around the DRT combo... WITHOUT the CNS THING... or even the perfect high shoulder shot. It's not about the perfect shot.... but the boiler room area... with a little cushion to spare for those Non-Perfect shots.
My 22-243Ai will put the bullet in their ears all day long... and DRT them as well.... but that's not my Quest.
If I was your Dad back in the days when every bit of meat made a difference.... I'd spank you as well for a Non-CNS shot... LOL.
22 250 64 grain gold dot
25 06 100 nosler solid base
I have more DRT kills with the .270 than anything else. Used 130gr Game Kings, 1st Gen 150gr Ballistic Tips, and Hornady 140gr BTSPs launched from 2950 to 3100fps, depending on the bullet. Almost everything was lights out. Close second was the .257 Wby shooting 80gr TTSXs at 3700.
I keep saying I need to build another .270...
John
Ok, I am going to chime in here.
First, a high shoulder shot IS a CNS shot.
Second, if you don't hit CNS with something, then you will never get a reliable DRT animal. PERIOD. Even the "I shot it behind the shoulder and I got a DRT" shots, if you do a good necropsy, you will find that a piece of bullet or bone hit the CNS. All mammals are built such that they can take a good amount of abuse to their internal organs and still function for a while. You have to sever the connection between the brain and those organs in order to get a "lights out, right now" effect.
So, now that that is established, the amount of internal damage required to have an effect on the CNS with a traditional behind-the-shoulder shot requires either a bullet failure (i.e. multiple fragments) or a significant amount of shock (i.e. high frontal area at significant speeds). Both of those end up causing excessive damage to usable parts of the animal, and therefore should be avoided, in my opinion, not sought after.
Quote......a good necropsy, you will find that a piece of bullet or bone hit the CNS
NOT sure that is true... because the Barnes TTX Boys don't have bullets coming apart... and a Friend of mine always shoots on the diaphragm (mid body area) ... where there is NO bone or bullet fragments from his 7 UM with 140 TTX @ 3400 fps.... and they always are DRT... well that's what he says anyways....LOL.
I think the Hydro-static shock thing is the Major Player here. Flying bullet parts and bone pieces sure do have a role in this whole deal... but I have seen... experienced... and heard of DRT kills where it had to be mostly the shock thingy making them drop.
Someone with some real brains needs to come up with a chart that shows the Hydro-Static Shock Value of a given caliber - bullet weight - construction - SD- speed - range distance - etc... all the things that produce Shock Value.... putting aside bullet and bone parts flying all around... that is just extra good stuff.
I would figure it out, but I was out of school that day when they taught Hydro-Static Shock Values....LOL.
Ok, I am going to chime in here.
First, a high shoulder shot IS a CNS shot.
Second, if you don't hit CNS with something, then you will never get a reliable DRT animal. PERIOD. Even the "I shot it behind the shoulder and I got a DRT" shots, if you do a good necropsy, you will find that a piece of bullet or bone hit the CNS. All mammals are built such that they can take a good amount of abuse to their internal organs and still function for a while. You have to sever the connection between the brain and those organs in order to get a "lights out, right now" effect..
This is not true.
I have killed several deer that were DRT with a bow. Those deer had untouched CNS. They did not die instantly either.. Two hit the ground and died within seconds, one took a minute or two.
I have killed at least 8 deer in the last few years with an arrow that died within five seconds of being hit and none of them were CNS shots. Five seconds of life after impact can allow a deer to cover considerable ground. Five seconds of life to bleed one out completely can also be accompanied by zero blood trail or, a very, very sparse one. I have killed a number of them by driving a broadhead down through just above the sternum which runs it through the heart and the out near the umbilicus. That usually hits a little of one or both lungs, and regardless of broad head it would have to produce very similar results. At least one would think so. Yet, in my experience the results are neither better nor worse than typical behind the shoulder shots, but did produce one DRT. I have passed arrows and bullets just above the heart severing the vessels and leaving the heart loose in the chest, which should for all intents and purposes be equivalent to hitting the heart, yet the results have been inconsistent.
I have seen a couple deer shot in the skull with rifles that it looked like the legs kept moving for a coupe of strides. I don't know as that would fall into DRT category since those deer both were running as fast as they could at impact and they quit moving a good 30 feet past impact. I have seen deer hit in the head which more ore less evacuated the brain box but they went down and lashed around enough that they might not qualify as DRT, having moved 20-30 feet from impact.
The only hits which I have seen which have thus far been 100% DRT have all been brain stem shots which uniformly caused a sort of slow motion head drop followed by the body. Those hits also have shown me legs moving after a minute or so, but that was not with any speed or force and I just assume it was lack of oxygen induced. and had no chance of moving the deer.
In my experience the deciding factor is the animal itself. I've seen deer DRT and I've seen them run 100 yards from the same shot placement, bullet, and cartridge choices. Some give up easier than others.
This happened to me this year. Same cartridge, bullet and placement. Both didn't have hearts, but one was DRT, the other ran about 70 yards Midsize cartridge, under 3k, and not a frangible bullet.
I may have messed this whole thread up by making people think that my understanding of DRT.... means Dead Right There....... it's NOT... but rather..... Drop Right There.
Dropping them in their tracks is my whole point....if anyone got confused.... then I call....My Bad...LOL.
After looking at Nosler's load data chart... it makes the 270 cal, w/ 100 gr @ 3500 fps a SCREAMER... it just has to be a Knocker Downer.
BUT.... the 7 rem mag will do the same thing with a 120 gr bullet..... WOW.... go there 7 mag.
A 257 Weatherby with a 100 grain Hornady Interlock is a pretty good lights out machine.
Very good!!
A 257 Weatherby with a 100 grain Hornady Interlock is a pretty good lights out machine.
Very good!!
My buddy had a Vanguard put into a McMillan stock. After he shot some factory ammo in it I refilled his brass with the 7828 load from the old tan IMR booklet. It shot great so that was it for load development. Stuff just dropped quick.
Ya I ran a ultra lightweight for 20 years, smashed a lot a critters with that rifle. I just ran th factory 100 gr spire points.. great killin rifle
257 bee with one of three projectiles. 100 horn sp interlock,115 bt or 110 accubond.
Big Ed
Ok, I am going to chime in here.
First, a high shoulder shot IS a CNS shot.
Second, if you don't hit CNS with something, then you will never get a reliable DRT animal. PERIOD. Even the "I shot it behind the shoulder and I got a DRT" shots, if you do a good necropsy, you will find that a piece of bullet or bone hit the CNS. All mammals are built such that they can take a good amount of abuse to their internal organs and still function for a while. You have to sever the connection between the brain and those organs in order to get a "lights out, right now" effect..
This is not true.
I have killed several deer that were DRT with a bow. Those deer had untouched CNS. They did not die instantly either..
Two hit the ground and died within seconds, one took a minute or two. For those deer (in bold), where did your arrow hit?
After getting so much Great response in this thread from shooters with actual experience, I thought i should look at my actual experience and compare it to what I'm wanting to experience in the future... so I made up this caliber - bullet - speed - comparison chart for a better and more realistic evaluation about other combos that at least match my 22-243 AI for DRT kill abilities at 300 yds.
I guess my whole point is.... that there are other combos on paper that should do the DRT kill thing... but I always ask for real life experiences from knowledgeable hunters... thanks...Dan
PS... I'm comparing ENERGY... because I think that is the DRT factor.
22-243Ai 80 amax 3500 fps ... produces .... at 300 yd .... 2830 fps.... 1422 energy
7 RM 120 gr 3400 fps... produces.... at 300 yd..... 2608 fps .... 1812 energy
257 weatherby 100 gr 3500 fps .... 300 yd .... 2895 fps.... 1861 energy
25/06 100 gr 3300 fps ...... 300 yd .... 2445 fps.... 1327 energy
257 110.00 gr 3200 ............ 300 .... 2517.... 1547 energy....
6.5 100 gr 3200 fps...... 300 yd .... 2412 fps.... 1292 energy
6.5 120 gr 3050 ......... 300.... 2455.... 1606 energy
Back in the day, 7mm STW, first gen 140gr ballistic tips at 3600 fps, zero to 500 yards across a watermelon field, 150 depredation permits in hand, nothing else even comes close to those red tipped demons, DRT extraordinaire.
Those were "hot" enough in a garden variety 7mm Weatherby.
LOL, Yes Sir they were, but, I had just graduated and double majored from the PO [blow a primer] Ackley and Layne [3600 fps or bust] Simpson school of ballistics research ; ]
For those deer (in bold), where did your arrow hit?
One hit in the neck just right of the esophagus down into the chest and through the heart. It took out the carotid on the way through. Two inch rage head. Two little crow hops that went nowhere and it was on the ground with a couple of feeble kicks. Adult doe. Dead in maybe 5-7 seconds.
The other, mid rib cage left wide, angled just over the heart and hit the shoulder/humerus joint opposite side. 4 blade NAP Spitfire Doublecross. Just under 3 inches of total cut. Just tipped over and kicked feebly and that was it. Fawn Never touched the heart but same difference, it took out the vessels on top of the heart. Dead in 5-7 seconds.
The third deer was actually the second deer I ever shot with a bow. Entry was mid rib cage left side down and forward through the left lung and through the heart as it was crawling under a fence. It just sagged to the ground and died slowly. Adult doe. Dead in maybe two minutes. Maybe much less, I was only 14-15 and pretty whizzed up.
Edited to add: I have shot a fair number that died as fast or faster but ran some from where they were hit.
I have had the most DRT with a 30-06 and 165gr Rem Core Lokts.
But every deer I have shot with a .280 Rem hasn't taken a step.
So you Guys are saying that your choice of caliber and bullet for producing a DRT kills on the spot would make you a thousand dollars on the spot? What if you had to pay me $1000 for everyone that ran off...even 10 yards. Would your choices still be the same?
If you can't find one that runs 10 yards, you need to take up golf.
LOL... I can find a deer that ran off 10 yds easier than I could a golf ball hidden in the rough... but this thread is not about finding them in 10 yds or 50 yds... it's about DRT... Dropping Right There. Putting them down right there is my whole goal with this thread. I'm trying to discover the common thread from all seasoned hunters from their success stories and experiences. Killing a critter or even tracking them any kind of distance is not the goal here... it's Dropping them right there.
thank you Guys for your information.
So you Guys are saying that your choice of caliber and bullet for producing a DRT kills on the spot would make you a thousand dollars on the spot? What if you had to pay me $1000 for everyone that ran off...even 10 yards. Would your choices still be the same?
If you can't find one that runs 10 yards, you need to take up golf.
How do you know how far a deer ran if you don't find it?
Of what I have used a180 gn grand slam out of my 300 Weatherby. I have never had a deer take a step with it yet. And I hit a couple that were moving too far back. They still dropped dead.
I had made the statement that energy had to be the deciding factor for DRT kills... BUT... that has to be wrong... My Bad. If that was true, then just use a big bullet with plenty of energy. DRT kills just has to be the results of Hydro static Shock.
There just has to be a way to compute a formula for Hydro-static Shock....Hmmmm....
If you`re looking at Hydro-static shock, maybe you should look to Berger bullets...most any caliber.
Also, check out Barbour Creek Shooting School on You tube. Testing various bullets. May be of some interest to you.
PS, the Bergers work as advertised..I`ve had a bit of experience with them.
Having killed 2-300+ big game animals and witnessing hundreds more, the combo that has provided the most DRT kills has been the 7mm Rem Mag with 150 grain NBTs at 3100+. After discovering that combo and it's effects on deer size game and large hogs over 20 years ago, I must admit I rode the "speed kills" train for the majority of my hunting career. That said, I changed my opinion on that concept after trying smaller carts with expansive pills(IE 308 based carts with NBTs or SSTs). The most recent string of DRT kills for me has been rather perplexing to say the least. I've taken 6 deer with the 6.8SPC in recent years using the Hdy 120 SST at a mere 2590fps MV and the combined total yardage for death runs out of those 6 kills is a mere 40yards with 4 of the 6 being anchored on the spot. 4 of those 6.8 kills weighed over 230lbs as well. I realize 6 is a very small sample size, but I'm still amazed at how that tiny round performs on game. I believe that the trend for "DRT" kills is directly related to wound cavity size. It has been my overwhelming experience that bullets that provide more internal damage result in shorter tracking jobs. It has also been my experience that there is a happy medium between wound cavity size and penetration. For example running a bullet of "soft" construction at very high MV has resulted in odd performance such as shallow penetration, lack of exits, and sometimes very difficult tracking. The combos that have delivered the most dramatic results or what some may deem the best results has been matching bullet construction with speed. A great example would be the 150NBT/7RM combo I mentioned above, it delivers great wound cavities, but also provides adequate penetration. Another great example would be the 6.8/120SST combo I mentioned as well. That bullet is a pretty lack luster performer at normal velocity, but slowing it down to the speed of the 6.8 allows it to not only deliver massive internal damage, it also allows it to penetrate sufficiently.
On the other side of the spectrum I also run quite a few "premium" combos such as Partitions, various bonded bullets, and monos. While these combos provide excellent accuracy and outstanding penetration, they simply do not provide as much internal destruction and game travels much further without CNS or large bone impacts. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but I'm getting to the point where I do like shorter tracking jobs most of the time.
Match the bullet construction and velocity with the animal at hand and you'll have a successful outcome.
Have a nice day,
loder
Match the bullet construction and velocity with the animal at hand and you'll have a successful outcome.
Have a nice day,
loder
Hear, hear!
A close friend of mine has been using a mid-speed 308 load I put together for him, H4895 capped by a 168 gr. Berger VLD assembled in vintage LC match brass for about 2600 fps. It has been reliable enough on deer and hogs that when I asked if he wanted to try something else his answer was a quick "Why?".
That is very good stuff there Reloader.. . thanks so much.
I'm thinking about screaming my 7RM with 120's at 3400-3500 fps...... and or.... a screaming 6.5 creedmoor with 120's.... I know the 7 RM will defiantly do it with the 150's like you said.... I may do that... but I just got a wild hair about screaming those 120's... LOL. thanks again
PS... I can't get my head around those slow speed killers... YET.... but there might just be something to it.
IS 32 caliber to big for this? Either way Ill tell you about one I had Sunday January 5th. 140 pound doe. 8x57 175 grain ppu bullet running 2620 fps out the muzzle. Shot was 65 yards. I was slightly elevated in a tripod type stand. Maybe 12-14 feet off the ground. Bullet entered her left shoulder missed her leg bone but started expanding in the meat. Much bloodshot damage. Hit the ribs on that side made a 2 inch entrance wound in her chest smacked dead into her heart. Completely tearing it apart. Then exited out the between the second to last rib. Huge blood shot spot/ bruising on the right side ribs.. She just sort of sat back on her butt at the shot then rolled over. Kicked a few times and that was it. First one ,for me, not to move when I have not gotten a piece of the cns. I have shot them, seen the after effects of many bullets on deer over the last 20+ years of hunting. very few of our kills are drt that weren't hit in the cns. Maybe like 2 to 5 % most move anywhere from 10 to 75 or so yards after the hit. They are wild animals, and it is very hard to predict what they will do after the bullet hits them.. to say you can come up with the perfect drt rifle with heart/lung shots is almost impossible.
Quote....the perfect drt rifle with heart/lung shots is almost impossible.
LOL... I'm not looking for the perfect rifle... just some of the TOP COMBOS.
A close friend of mine has been using a mid-speed 308 load I put together for him, H4895 capped by a 168 gr. Berger VLD assembled in vintage LC match brass for about 2600 fps. It has been reliable enough on deer and hogs that when I asked if he wanted to try something else his answer was a quick "Why?".
Sounds like an excellent combo. The 165 SGK HPBT is another great one at 2600, but not near the BC as that Berger. The 165 SST at 2600 is pretty salty as well, but I don’t care for much more speed with it. Heck, you can throw the 165 NBT in there as well. All 4 of those are close in that application IMO, it would boil down to accuracy out of a particular rifle for me.
That is very good stuff there Reloader.. . thanks so much.
I'm thinking about screaming my 7RM with 120's at 3400-3500 fps...... and or.... a screaming 6.5 creedmoor with 120's.... I know the 7 RM will defiantly do it with the 150's like you said.... I may do that... but I just got a wild hair about screaming those 120's... LOL. thanks again
PS... I can't get my head around those slow speed killers... YET.... but there might just be something to it.
Both of those would get the job done for sure. My pick would be the CM even though I’m a huge 7RM fan. I say that because I believe you’ll be disappointed in penetration on larger animals with the 120 at 3500. The 120/6.5 otoh should do great if it’s anything like they behave in my 6.5-06.
I just set up a 6.5CM and I’m starting with the 130SGC. Also about to pick up a custom 260 as well.
Good luck with your quest.
A close friend of mine has been using a mid-speed 308 load I put together for him, H4895 capped by a 168 gr. Berger VLD assembled in vintage LC match brass for about 2600 fps. It has been reliable enough on deer and hogs that when I asked if he wanted to try something else his answer was a quick "Why?".
Sounds like an excellent combo. The 165 SGK HPBT is another great one at 2600, but not near the BC as that Berger. The 165 SST at 2600 is pretty salty as well, but I don’t care for much more speed with it. Heck, you can throw the 165 NBT in there as well. All 4 of those are close in that application IMO, it would boil down to accuracy out of a particular rifle for me.
My friend and I have used all of those with success. The Sierra I used in full power loads, typically on top of 46 grains of Varget for a bit under 2700 fps out of my LVSF. My friend used the SST on top of the same charge for something like 2750 fps out of his Kimber. Later that was switched to 43.5 grains of H4895 because I didn't like the extra fiddling before seating bullets on the compressed charge of Varget. The current issue 165 NBT has quite a heavy jacket. I've drilled a few hogs (150 pound class) with it and haven't caught one.
My friend and I have used all of those with success. The Sierra I used in full power loads, typically on top of 46 grains of Varget for a bit under 2700 fps out of my LVSF. My friend used the SST on top of the same charge for something like 2750 fps out of his Kimber. Later that was switched to 43.5 grains of H4895 because I didn't like the extra fiddling before seating bullets on the compressed charge of Varget. The current issue 165 NBT has quite a heavy jacket. I've drilled a few hogs (150 pound class) with it and haven't caught one.
Nice! I also wanted to give the new 165 SGC a run as it should be in the same realm performance wise and has a great BC for the weight class. My 30-06 CR just would not run them as well as others. Haven't tried them in 308 yet, but I could see them replacing the old HPBTGK.