I posted this in the Canada section, but I don't think many of them reload. I was given 200 223 Rem cases, but was shocked that the company would let these out the door.
How many of you have seen this with their brass?
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...inchester-brass-lots-of-pix#Post16034356![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/BHl1v8o.jpg)
I've seen it with R-P brass
I’ve used many 1000s of Win brass. I have not noticed that, but have not bought any in 2-3 years.
And how big of an issue is it?
Because I read about issues with Winchester brass, I wanted to post and see how many have seen this. Not just with 223 cases, but any of their brass.
I haven't bought Winchester brass in many years. The last buys were 222 Rem. I bought them about 10 years ago. They were normal. Nothing like what I found in these bags.
I’ve seen this with the newer Winchester 223 brass... quite a bit actually... along with split necks and other issues... the only other newer Winchester brass I’ve dealt with is 22 Hornet and it was also poor quality... I have a friend that manufactures ammunition and he dropped Winchester brass all together and went to Hornady...
I bought 1000 Winchester cases in 223 about 10 years ago, great quality with ZERO issues. apparently their quality went down hill sometime in the last 10 years
Speak for yourself. I'm sure most of us reload.
I bought 1000 Winchester cases in 223 about 10 years ago, great quality with ZERO issues. apparently their quality went down hill sometime in the last 10 years
That's what many people are saying. You would think if their QC dropped badly, Winchester would have corrected things. How wide spread is it?
I’ve seen this with the newer Winchester 223 brass... quite a bit actually... along with split necks and other issues... the only other newer Winchester brass I’ve dealt with is 22 Hornet and it was also poor quality... I have a friend that manufactures ammunition and he dropped Winchester brass all together and went to Hornady...
Interesting. I wonder how 308, 30-06 brass and other cases from Winchester are wrt quality?
I bought 1000 Winchester cases in 223 about 10 years ago, great quality with ZERO issues. apparently their quality went down hill sometime in the last 10 years
That's what many people are saying. You would think if their QC dropped badly, Winchester would have corrected things. How wide spread is it?
I’ve seen this with the newer Winchester 223 brass... quite a bit actually... along with split necks and other issues... the only other newer Winchester brass I’ve dealt with is 22 Hornet and it was also poor quality... I have a friend that manufactures ammunition and he dropped Winchester brass all together and went to Hornady...
Interesting. I wonder how 308, 30-06 brass and other cases from Winchester are wrt quality?
Maybe you are living under a rock ,but I thought it was a known issue with Winchester brass. I stopped buying it because their QC really sucks. I know there have been threads on this. Mainly regarding the red and black bag stuff. I had to buy a damn chamfering tool to take burrs out of the inside of the case in the flash hole. Never have had to do this before with any manufacture's brass, but Winchester has been total garbage for about 5 years now.
I buy Prvi and Lapua brass mostly. Some Starline. I have for years. In some respects, living in Canada had its advantages. We used to have larger access to Euro companies.
Living under a rock could be interpreted as having access to better components. 😄 I bought better and cheaper cases.
That said, I wonder why Winchester would allow that to be sold to the public?
I use a lot of Winchester Brass.... I haven't seen those kind of issues whatsoever...
maybe I am the one living under a rock... but hey, I pick it up as range brass... maybe they are taking the poor QC stuff and sending it to select towns in Canada...
I have never had an issue with Winchester brass, but I'm still using out of my stock that's about 15 years old.
There’s also an issue with the economy (cheap) line of 12 gauge shells. The brass at the base is too thin and swells causing ejection problems with autoloaders. I’ve been avoiding all things Winchester the last couple years. Too bad because it used to be fine but the last few years there has been primer problems, brass issues and now shotshell issues.
Most of my Win brass is the old blue bag stuff. Got a couple bags of the red and black bag but it's on the shelf as backup. Read some time ago that Win and other companies were farming out brass production, some to multiple makers. Might be where the problems are coming from.
...Read some time ago that Win and other companies were farming out brass production, some to multiple makers. Might be where the problems are coming from.
I hope that is the case. It's easy to stop using that company. I've never had a one third rejection rate before. The stuff on my bench came in the red bag.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/WqJNdeU.jpg)
Just grabbed a random handful out of a partial red/black bag of 223 brass and found this one...
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/HkXXQXNH/69155-FB0-993-E-4-A24-8-FA0-A81-D4-F8-BAA6-B.jpg)
Wow. I wonder if the QC people are paid to eliminate the good ones from the bags?
The next question is, if a person doesn't buy, or won't buy Win brass, what is the most commonly purchased 223 brass in the US?
I've run into some crap WW brass in the older blue bags. One batch had inclusions in the metal, think the brass version of casting a bullet with dirty metal that had not been fluxed. There have been jacked up flash holes, folds in the neck/shoulder, neck splits on second loading, shoulders in the wrong place, case mouths cut off way out of square and probably other things I just don't remember at the moment.
Wow. I wonder if the QC people are paid to eliminate the good ones from the bags?
The next question is, if a person doesn't buy, or won't buy Win brass, what is the most commonly purchased 223 brass in the US?
I would have to say federal.... aka... lake city
Wow. I wonder if the QC people are paid to eliminate the good ones from the bags?
The next question is, if a person doesn't buy, or won't buy Win brass, what is the most commonly purchased 223 brass in the US?
I started out (this time) with 100 of the sorted and prepped Nosler. Excellent, but spendy. Then I got a good deal on unprimed Lake City 5.56 from Federal (no pesky crimps). 250 in a bag for $45, IIRC. Also very good stuff and tough, so it’s said. Since LC is under the control of someone else now, who knows, but MIL SPEC should mean something, right? My guess is LC is as close to the “standard” as anything. Once-fired, processed or not, seems very popular and cheap, if you don’t mind a bit of work.
I have a bunch of Fiocchi from their good and cheap American made factory ammo. It’s a lot heavier than the others, so I back off a bit on the powder. Their 40gr VMax loads have shot well in a couple of rifles and cost about $.40 a round. Have some 50gr on backorder now. I also picked up 100 rounds of Nosler Blem ammo with their bonded 64gr bullets for less than I could buy the brass and bullets for. Doesn’t look blemished to me!
I pick up thousands of Federal and LC at our local range..., bring it home and tumble over night, with the media having some Mineral Spirits poured into it..
Brass looks brand new the next morning...
once me and a retired Marine Buddy, after OSP had shot training for a couple of days, the left their brass all over the range...
Together Warren and I picked up a little over 12,500 cases that day...
Took a week to tumble and clean my half ( 6,000) cases.. pretty much all LC or Federal both with and without crimped primers...
The federal will not take a lot of pressure, soft in the case head.
All of the military brass stands trimming to length, then using a tool to put a very slight chamfer on the inside of the flash hole to "de burr" any burr that is left on the inside.
If you grab a hand full of brass that has had the primers removed, you can see how some of the cases have the flash hole way off center, it is worse on some lots of LC than any other brand of brass I have seen seconded by some lots of PMC. These off center flash holes are good for breaking your decapping pin in in your full length sizing dies or bending the rod.
I cull out this brass with the off center flash holes. I have always wanted to do a test to check accruracy on the off center flash holes but lack of time is the issue.
I have an update. For those who haven't seen it, you can check things out here.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...inchester-brass-lots-of-pix#Post16034356The Cdn rep and Winchester have responded to me, but it was only after I said that I was going to post pictures on my site and talk to the hunting and shooting community.
If you bought brass, maybe have pix or a story, I would like to hear from you.
steve@303british.com It will only take a few seconds. Your name won't be divulged. I think we should remind Winchester of their responsibilities to hunters and shooters.
Iffin U don't like bulk Win-Fed or Rem coming from a 50 gal drum
just buy Lapua
I haven't bought Rem or Win for many years. I use Lapua for four cartridges, and Starline or Prvi for the rest.
Without going through the story again, when I got this Win brass, I was astounded that their automated and visual checks didn't pick anything up.
I think we are letting them get away with selling crap. I always thought Winchester was better than that.
Everything is going to Hell. Don’t you get the papers up there?
Yes, but you have to be careful reading things on the Internet. Up here, I trust the papers more than digital media.
There was a time when all I bought was Winchester ammunition. I realize all companies are having problems, but for them to succeed, we need to be confident that what they offer is of value.
It is important to remind businesses of that fact when they forget that customers keep them solvent.
I like your optimism, but you’re dreaming. They don’t care. If they cared, they’d have QC. You tried, now move on. Life is a series of changes.......
Besides Starline, I like Hornady and Nosler lately. Have lots of good Winchester brass from the good old days for my .270s and .308s.
This hasn't played out yet. I am optimistic because no business wants to go bankrupt.
I am also hopeful that people will object and demand satisfaction when they are sold degective merchandise.
If we don't protest, they will not clean up their act. This is not cheap, imported Chinese stuff! This is made in the USA.
Enjoy your quest, Don Quixote!
Well Pappy, they may be paying me lip service, but I got a response after sending this.
Hi Christine. I appreciate that you emailed.
I am not angry with Winchester per se. I am disappointed that this is an ongoing problem that has been left unresolved. Let me be clear, it wasn't a single case, but rather, there were 17 defective cases of the first 50 taken from the bag. I sent two pictures. I could not forward all the pictures because of the limit what your company allows at the customer support page.
I am not a tool and die maker, but spoke to one about the problem. I showed him the cases. Without seeing the press and die, he could not say with absolute certainty that the punch was past due replacement. It could have been a fouling or misalignment problem. Regardless, he told me was that QC is automated and these cases should have been picked up before they reached the bag. Something went wrong.
I spoke with people at my club, and talked to acquaintances on the web. I wanted to know if any of them had experienced this problem with Winchester cases before. I got over 40 responses in two days. Taking into account that people on the Internet tend to exaggerate or misreport things, I followed up all the emails and was dismayed with the pictures I received.
I discovered this problem has been going on for at least three years that I can determine.
I think you understand that poor QC has already affected your business. I appreciate the follow up, but honestly, how do I politely say that you are shooting yourselves in the foot, and deserve it, due to inaction? The industry is fighting politicians and COVID. Things are difficult.
It's sad when the last case maker product on the shelves is Winchester. I am not saying this to insult, but I switched to Prvi Partizan, Starline and military surplus cases for much of my reloading. My competition loads have always been Lapua.
I suggest that if Winchester keeps walking this road, they'll end up in receivership like other US firearms/accessory companies.
---
Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com
Visit my bookstore at
www.303british.com. Latest releases - 24Hr Campfryer & More Campfyrer Tales - outdoor fiction!
---
I hope they are sincere. I have asked that they let me know what the QC manager discovers and, in general terms, what follow up action will be taken.
Hello Stephen
I really appreciate your concern and value it. I will make sure I escalate this to our Quality Control Manger and will work to get this resolved. If I can do anything else to help please let me know. If you would like a refund for the defective cases I will be glad to pick those up at no charge to you and give you a refund. Please let me know.
Thanks Christine
The escalation went from a link asking what my problem was, to a contact from a Canadian rep. I was to send the cases back and include receipts. After several emails it went to this - If you would like a refund for the defective cases I will be glad to pick those up at no charge to you and give you a refund.
That would be a courier. It appears that they are sincere. Time will tell.
I've run into some crap WW brass in the older blue bags.
Yup, me too.
Winchester white box has always been a favorite of mine especially in .223. I guess it's on me to keep track of the brass and watch for QC issues in the future. Thanks for the heads up.
kwg
The south Korean loaded 223 Winchester ball is toilet ammo, and the empty brass in bags is junk, Fed/LC is better.
Ya I know about Federal cases, problem is it's 5yr old news that don't die.
I have actually seen that on Winchester 308 brass from factory ammunition. The flash holes looked like key holes. Ended up with about 15 of them from several boxes of factory ammo.
Doesn't Starline ship to Canada? Just buy another brand and get on with your life.
Update: Yesterday - 17 Jun 21 - I followed up with Winchester, and asked,
Good morning, Christine. This is a follow up to our emails from last month. I wanted to know what the QC manager found when he checked into the problem. I assume he did?
I received this response.
Hello Stephen
I no information from the Quality Control Team. We sent this to our Canada Division so I have no other correspondence from them.
Thanks
Christine
The brass is produced in the US, so it seems foolish to send my correspondence to the Canadian distributor. QC in the US was originally where Christine, the Winchester rep, said my observations would be sent. This morning, I sent her this.
Just a quick question. Why was it forwarded to the Canada division? I thought the brass is made in the US.
She responded quickly, saying,
Hello Steve.
It is made in the US but you live in Canada . So I don’t handle Canadian complaints. You should have gotten a call or correspondence from a Beth Mercer.
Thanks
Christine
I sent her this a minute ago.
I see. In an earlier email, you said that you were going to forward the observations to the GC manager. Since the brass is produced in the US, it seems that my observations should have been addressed by QC in the plant where they are made.
I am not looking to start a shouting match or get my money refunded. I genuinely hoped that QC would be interested in what myself and others have found in product bags from various retail outlets. We had talked about me receiving a response from the QC manager. Specifically, his findings, and what would be done to correct the problem. It is a worrisome production problem that is not good for the company's reputation.
I hope you understand that I am trying to help.
Are they sweeping this under the rug?
https://303british.com
Maybe this sort of product ends up in your hands, as you seem to love to have issues like this come your way, so you can be the Jimmy Olsen with the scoop for the rest of the campfire...
If I have had any issue with a batch of purchased brass, such as you are pointing out, I'll load it and see if it gives me any problems shooting some of it at the range.. If there is, and I can't correct it, I'll just toss it, instead of trying to personally make the world safe for others, by badgering Winchester to make it all PERFECT just for me... your must have a boring and shallow existence for a life.
Crappy brass is not going to be a center focus in my life for a couple of months, followed by a couple more months of Winchester making it right, so one can be the champion of the people.
INstead of calling and corresponding with a couple of bad bags from Winchester, I have Lord knows how many cases that were just range picked up brass, that others just left on the ground... I'll just use that.
I'm sure I'm not alone in the thoughts of Best of Luck on your quest, and we hope it yields the results that you are hoping to achieve.. With that accomplished I sincerely hope your next quest is to finally just down and contemplating on how to get a life....
Despite all of this stress and strife, the world will still be turning tomorrow for the rest of us....
Best of luck and may the Force be With YOU C3 P.O.
Update: Yesterday - 17 Jun 21 - I followed up with Winchester, and asked,
Good morning, Christine. This is a follow up to our emails from last month. I wanted to know what the QC manager found when he checked into the problem. I assume he did?
I received this response.
Hello Stephen
I no information from the Quality Control Team. We sent this to our Canada Division so I have no other correspondence from them.
Thanks
Christine
The brass is produced in the US, so it seems foolish to send my correspondence to the Canadian distributor. QC in the US was originally where Christine, the Winchester rep, said my observations would be sent. This morning, I sent her this.
Just a quick question. Why was it forwarded to the Canada division? I thought the brass is made in the US.
She responded quickly, saying,
Hello Steve.
It is made in the US but you live in Canada . So I don’t handle Canadian complaints. You should have gotten a call or correspondence from a Beth Mercer.
Thanks
Christine
I sent her this a minute ago.
I see. In an earlier email, you said that you were going to forward the observations to the GC manager. Since the brass is produced in the US, it seems that my observations should have been addressed by QC in the plant where they are made.
I am not looking to start a shouting match or get my money refunded. I genuinely hoped that QC would be interested in what myself and others have found in product bags from various retail outlets. We had talked about me receiving a response from the QC manager. Specifically, his findings, and what would be done to correct the problem. It is a worrisome production problem that is not good for the company's reputation.
I hope you understand that I am trying to help.
Are they sweeping this under the rug?
https://303british.comThat's exactly what happened to me. I was referred to Beth, who told me I would be refunded for the cost of the brass if I sent it back to them (at my expense). I decided against that, and just continued to use the pieces that remained, discarding the bad ones.
It is pretty much what I expected, hence my DQ picture above. 😀
I had hoped for something more than redirected emails and correspondence, but it never hurts to try. It also explains why Winchester brass is usually the last stuff on gun store shelves.
The Winchester brass coming out of the lake city plant is pretty damn good. I picked a bunch up the other day, it all looked good. This is the stuff loaded with the 62gr green tip.
The Winchester brass coming out of the lake city plant is pretty damn good. I picked a bunch up the other day, it all looked good. This is the stuff loaded with the 62gr green tip.
What is the headstamp? WIN USA? Scamp dots?
The Winchester brass coming out of the lake city plant is pretty damn good. I picked a bunch up the other day, it all looked good. This is the stuff loaded with the 62gr green tip.
What is the headstamp? WIN USA? Scamp dots?
Winchester 223 is the head stamp. They sell it the 150rd card board box. Lake city also makes the frontier ammo for hornady. It’s head stamped with either 223 or 5.56. It all has a primer crimps,
For those that don’t know, Winchester won the contract to run the lake city plant.
I have a bunch of Win USA brass I picked up at the range not long ago...
I'm not as picky as many of you guys usually are...
But with this Win USA I'm not real impressed at all on it...
Some brass I did pick up that I have never seen before, was Jagemann out of Wisconsin...
only picked up 15 rounds, but that is DAMN fine brass...
checked out their site, they make it is a good cross section of cartridges, they just got that part of their division bought out by someone
who will start offering it to the public.... several on line vendors carried it, but like everything else they are "sold out"....
Seafire,
Natchez carries Jagemann brass. I ordered quite a bit of it in 223, 22-250, 243, 270, and 30-06. Found it to be good stuff. Hopefully whoever bought them out will get things up and running quickly. Will be ordering more when I see it.
GreggH
I bought 1000 Winchester cases in 223 about 10 years ago, great quality with ZERO issues. apparently their quality went down hill sometime in the last 10 years
Winchester has turned to garbage. Bought 7x57 brass a few years back and the neck thickness variance was about .004-.005.
Until I hear different, in won't trust their brass again.
Digging in the garage i found 100 new Norma .223 cases, and 100 new .22-250.
Have a few blue bags of .22-250 win.
They havent been opened so dunno what QC is like
The Norma was bagged in Ziplocs so can sort through those if need be. Im gonna take a wild guess and suspect theyre all fine LOL.
Interesting thread, opened another ammo can last night to find 315 LC Match cases and over 400 "W C C" cases marked '69 and '94, i take those to be Winchester? ran a handful through the small base 223 dies, cleaned pockets and seated new primers, seems plenty good to go to me, i may load all those with varmint powder under 62gr Bear Claws and 64gr Nosler Bonded.
[quote=Seafire]I have a bunch of Win USA brass I picked up at the range not long ago...
I'm not as picky as many of you guys usually are...
But with this Win USA I'm not real impressed at all on it...
Seafire, curious, what did you not like about the Win USA brass?
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/x1WCWMe.png)