I shot some Speer TNT 125g w/ 47.9, 49.5, and 49.7g IMR4064 this weekend out of a .30-06 Springfield (R-P brass and primers). I think I could do better, but I wasn't pushing them too fast either. I get excellent sub-MOA accuracy w/ IMR4064 and 150g, 165g, and 180g bullets w/ a variety of bullets (best is w/ Nosler 150g Accubond and 51.4g powder).

Might be the powder burn-rate. I have my loading manuals, but what everyone loading for 125g bullets and the .30-06 Springfield? I've only got IMR4064 on the shelf at the moment, so I need to buy some more powder anyway.

Try some Sierra 110gr hollowpoints. They are nearly always accurate, shoot flatter than you think, and are really explosive on varmints.

used 125 BT's to take my first coues with. didnt like em at all!

What husky said. Them 110 hp sierras shoot real nice from the "06.
Bob

what yous guys said but I soot em' in my 300 mwi mag too. Awsome dvestation on jacks at 250 yards. Dave

Check barrel twist. Most factory barrels have a barrel twist of 1-10 for heavy barrels. My M700 has a 1-12 because it was designed for varmints but for real light bullets I would probably go with a 1-14 twist. Also according to the bullet makers the BC of 30 caliber varmint bullets is real low. They tend to shed speed real fast.

That's my .02 worth and all I can contribute.

Try Varget or Reloder 15, you should be able to get 3300 fps or a little more. Very violent expansion at these speeds.

+1, with the slight nod to RL15 for speed at those weights, usually

Some say Varget gets them better accuracy

I looked on Berger's web site and they say that .30 bullets in the 110 to 125 grain area work best with a minimum twist of 1-19. Food for thought no more no less.

I use 65.0gr of W760 for 3500fps with the 125gr Speer TNT. NB. This is out of a 30-06 Improved with shoulder blown forward & 28 inch barrel.

The fireform load is 64.0gr for 3375fps.

Regards
JohnT

June,
You might try a different primer.
I used to load the 125 Speer TNT with 4064 for my '06 with Fed. BR primers.
I could shoot 3, 125's 3, 150's and 3, 165's into 1.75" with the same sight setting.(at 100 yds.)
The 125's and 165's would group .50" lower.
I used IMR 4350 for the 165 Sierra loads, and IMR 4064 for the others.
Virgil B.

This might sound like a peevish rant, but isn't meant that way.

Why is it when somebody asks about a load for a particular bullet weight that some of the suggestions have to do with a different twist rate? There is no little adjustment screw to change the twist in a barrel.

Or is it the thought that the shooter should refit a new barrel every time he wants to shoot a different weight bullet?

Or should he have an entire different expensive rifle for every bullet weight in every cartridge?

Now, I'll admit that if the guy is asking, "WHY won't my rifle shoot XXX bullets as well as YYY or ZZZ bullets?" then the diagnostic answer might be related to twist rate. That would be cogent.

But suggesting he CHANGE twist rates just to shoot a few non-standard rounds a year is pointless.

Okay, maybe this IS a peevish rant after all....

Seeing as how I brought up twist rate I'll try to answer your question and no I don't think your post is a peevish rant.

I'm new to this game of little bitty holes and reloading. In trying to educate my self on custom barrels, twist, bullets, etc. I've learned a lot although I certainly don't know everything.

The 30-06 for example is not a varmint round although it can be made to be a varmint round. For the 30-06 to be a good varmint/predator round it will usually shoot bullets in the 110-125 grain bullet range which needs a twist in the 1-19 twist range. Most 30-06's are set up for big game which means they are using at least a twist of from 1-10 or higher which is needed to stabilize the big bullets needed to kill big game. High twist speed tends not to stabilize the low SD/BC of the small .308 caliber bullets. I'm not an engineer so I'm not sure why but I know that is the case.

I shoot a .308 Win. for a target/predator/varmint rifle. It has 1-12 twist and shoots 168 grain bullet real well. I started to think that the 168 grain bullet was more bullet than I needed for what I was doing. I started looking around for what I would replace the .308 Win. with is how I got into the game I'm now playing. I determined for what I do a 6mm in something shooting bullets in the 88-90 grain area would do the job.

The point is that as I started looking around for my perfect rifle I discovered that:

1. Determine what you want to do with the rifle.
2. Pick the caliber, barrel, twist, bullet, brass, powder, primer that will get the job done.
3. Which means you may need a whole safe of rifles for all the things you want to do.

Hope this helps.

"The 30-06 for example is not a varmint round although it can be made to be a varmint round. For the 30-06 to be a good varmint/predator round it will usually shoot bullets in the 110-125 grain bullet range which needs a twist in the 1-19 twist range."

Ok, I hope you meant 1 in 9 twist not 1 in 19!

"Most 30-06's are set up for big game which means they are using at least a twist of from 1-10 or higher which is needed to stabilize the big bullets needed to kill big game. High twist speed tends not to stabilize the low SD/BC of the small .308 caliber bullets. I'm not an engineer so I'm not sure why but I know that is the case."

Your lingo of "1-10 or higher" is misleading.

Generally if you want to express a faster twist you are talking one turn in 9(1:9 twist) or one turn in 8 (1:8 twist) or one turn in 7 (1:7 twist). Each is getting progressively faster.

Just because the number goes UP 1:9, 1:10, 1:12, that is not a faster twist but a slower twist.

Faster twists are needed for bigger, longer, generally heavier bullets.

In your example above a 168 gr bullet will need a FASTER twist to stabilize better 1:10, 1:9 etc... not a slower twist. 1:12, 1:14.

Generally a fast twist in a rifle barrel will let you shoot short bullest of light wt and long bullets of heavy wt.

I'd prefer a faster twist as it gives me more options vs a slow twist.

I've played with the 125 gr. Speer TNT for quite a while now out of one of my .308's.
They can be very accurate. Just don't push them too fast, say over 3100 fps. or they might not make it to the target.
According to my data, your loads are mild. That, sometimes, does make a difference. But the biggest thing I see here is you didn't try much in the way of different powder charges.
When I devlop loads, I start at least three grains, sometimes five grains under max and work up at one grain intervals in that size case. Often the groups will vary in size with each powder charge, sometimes alot, like one to two inches @ 100.
At least in my .308, I get groups that run 1.1 - to 2.2 inches with one powder but .3-.7 groups with a different powder using the same method.
You just need to try and see. Change only one thing at a time. I try different powder charges first. Then different powders. Lastly, if at all, primers. Cases need to be once fired for that rifle and neck sized with a collet die or partially FL sized. E

I know that in theory the typical 30-06 has rifling twist that is too fast and a throat that is too long to shoot 110 gr. bullets accurately. However, it has been my experience that all of my 30-06's (except my Garand) and those I have seen others shoot are about as accurately with 110 gr. Sierras as with there usual 165-180 gr. hunting loads.
A 30-06 is not an ideal varmint rifle,of course, but: (1) Shooting varmints with your hunting rifle is great practice.
(2) Not everyone can afford "a whole safe of rifles"

If a rifle is set up for the standard-weight bullets for that cartridge, lighter than standard bullets will tend to be overstabilized by that twist, and that overstabilization gets worse with higher velocites.

To medium ranges, overstabilization isn't an issue. But at very long ranges, an overstabilized bullet will tend not to follow the trajectory and will stay in a nose-high angle in relation to the downward-curving angle of the actual bullet path. It also may oscillate slightly around its axis when overstabilized, never calming down or "going to sleep" as a properly stable bullet will.

At least, that's what I think I know about stabilization.

I appreciate all of the posts.

Is 3000fps still okay for 125g bullets given the last post? I just reloaded using 51.1g IMR4064 (~3000fps per manuals) to see how those shoot and loaded to 3.17 length. I need to load a reversed bullet to see how far to the lands for those TNT bullets, and then for the 125g Remington PSP. Depending on what happens, then I am going to try IMR3031.

BTW...I'm not buying a new barrel any time soon.

May depend on the rate of twist. I drive them at 3500fps and they reach the target OK but I have a 1:14 inch twist barrel that's smooth as.

Regards
JohnT

Nope, meant 1-19 for 110-125 grain bullets. I got that from the Burger website and that's the minimum twist they recommend for their bullets in that caliber and weight. I think a 1-14 could probably do okay with the those weights but I don't know for sure.

Yup, I should have use a better adjective like faster instead of higher.

Well a 1-10 might be better than 1-12 for my .308 Win. using 168 match bullets but the rifle came with a 1-12 twist. My rifle is similar to the Remington that the military use to use for sniper work and they used 1-12 twist with 168 match bullets. We have some military snipers in my shooting club and they say the Army is now using 173 grain bullets in their .308 sniper rifles. I would imagine they must be using at least a 1-10 twist but most probably 1-9 or 1-8 twist. My rifle will, when yours truely is having a good shooting day, shoot 1/5" groups +/- at two hundred yards all day using factory 168 grain match ammo.

That's interesting about a fast twist for light short bullets and long heavy bullets. I'm thinking of re-barreling my .308 to 6mm Remington with a twist of 1-8 for shooting 87 to 95 grain bullets. Gunsmith seems to think that should work too.

I am getting confused. Twist is usually thought of as being a "quick" twist for heavy bullets, for example. Years ago the 223 came with a 1-14 for 55 gr bullets. Then people tried 69 gr bullets and went with a 1-9 twist. Now they use 80 grs and use 1-7 twist. If you went to a 90-100 gr bullet you would need a quicker twist say 1-6.5. Correct me if I am wrong.
I have always thought the standard twist to be fine unless you want to shoot heavier than standard bullets. I have never heard that "overstabilization is a problem". If you shoot lightly constructed varmint bullets with a fast twist barrel they may come apart from the higher rpm's however.

whelennut, you are exactly right!

the bigger, longer and heavier bullets need a quicker twist to stabilize them.

Nope, meant 1-19 for 110-125 grain bullets. I got that from the Burger website and that's the minimum twist they recommend for their bullets in that caliber and weight. I think a 1-14 could probably do okay with the those weights but I don't know for sure.


Yes, then the 1-19 is the MINIMUM, or the slowest twist that will stabilize this bullet. So a faster twist, like the 1-14 mentioned will stabilize it but a slower twist say like a 1-28 won't.

Can't argue with your post makes sense to me. Another thing I was wondering if the 30-06 would be considered over bore for a 110-125 grain bullet? If not, what would be considered over bore in a 30-06?

Another nod for RL15 and 125's. I use sierra's with good results. Nothing special in the velocity department, but very accurate.

I believe over bore refers to the diameter of the hole in the tube in relation to the amount of powder capacity in the shell.

I could be wrong...

June,

Don't let the discussions deter you from running varmint bullets in your -06. They are fun, they will shoot accurately, and you only live once.

Try RL15 with either the Sierra 110 hollowpoint or the Speer 125 TNT. Who said the 30-06 isn't good for varmints?!?

you aren't going to worry about overstabilizing a lighter bullet with a 1 in 10 twist...

fragile bullets like the Speer TNT will still hold up to the RPMs generated in an 06 with velocities to 3300 and 3400 fps..

Sierra's 110 gr HP, and the 110 Grain V Max will hold up to 3500 fps in a one in 10 twist from an 06...

What Berger's site is listing, is the recommended minimum twist for the corresponding bullet weights...

Ask a gunsmith about how many 06 rifles he has ever seen with a one in 19 twist.. or a one in 14 twist....

one in 12's yeah, but few in much slower than that....