I've always wanted a 220 swift and am getting close to sending an action out to get rebarreled. I keep hearing alot about the 22-250 AI though. Things like it does'nt stretch cases like the 220. Has a little more case capacity. More efficient. Is there any truth to this?
The only reloading manual I have that has both in it with comparable bullets is the Barnes #3. According to it the 220 swift has .12 grains more case capacity by water. Meaningless to be sure but more none the less. Comparing same bullets some the swift shoots a little faster,some the 22-250 AI although Barnes used a 24" barrel on the swift and a 26" on the 22-250 AI. Case stretching? Really an issue with the 220?
Been doing a couple searches and alot of 22-250 AI lovers/users out there really hype it up usually at the expense of the swift. Seems to me the 22-250 is just a fireformed swift. But I see claims out there of considerable performance over the swift. Any truth to it?

Performance is same/same,though I think the 22-250AI is a better mousetrap.

That being said,I'm sweet on the Swift and think highly of it.

There isn't a poor choice in the lot................

I have a Ruger M/77 in .220 Swift, and a Ruger #1 and a Remington M/700BDL in .22-250, and I love all three. The .220 Swift seems a bit more accurate at longer ranges, but that is due to the scope, I think.

I think I've had 5 Swifts an equal number of 22-250's and built a pair of 22-250AI's. Am thinking in outta the box form,the Swift displayed a slight edge in accuracy.

If building a new rifle I think I'd do the 22-250AI again,as it has Swift capacity and is very friendly. A fast twist 22-250AI is something I've been stewing on for a long while and is certainly of much merit.

Again,they is all good,if not great......................

I'm thinking I'll stay with the Swift as I've wanted one since my teenage years. Doing a search on some other forums I've come across alot of claims of higher performance with the 22-250AI including one guy who says he gets 4400fps with a 55 grain bullet and 3900 with a 62 grain out of a 28" barrel compared to 3600 fps with his swift. Nobody called BS on it and never having been behind the trigger of one figured I'd come here for the scoop. Plan on staying with 50-55 grain bullets so am not too concerned with AOL.

I have zero experience with tubes over 26" on any of the aforementioned chamberings,but neither of my 22CHeetah Mach Ones would make that kind of speeds,despite being of more capacity. So I'll save judgement upon those claims(grin).

The Swift hauls ass. Always has,always will and that is not difficult to like.........................

The 220 Swift is my all time favorite cartridge. Never had a problem loading for it, my old Ruger M77 has put many critters in the dirt and it's still going like the Energizer Bunny. No muss, no fuss, why bother with anythings else in .224 caliber?

FVA
Flip a coin and go with it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Either of these are proven performers in the field. In my experience, case stretching is caused more by oversized chambers than by case design. 22-250 brass is sometimes easier to get, but buy in bulk and you can forget that too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

I love the Swift too, but I rebarreled mine to a fast twist and shoot heavy bullets. What a huge difference for LR shooting.

If I only had one .22 centerfire, I would get a .22-250. But hey, you don't marry rifles, so you can have more than one. A .223 for general purpose varminting and a slicked out .220 Swift knocks the socks off a .22-250.

Hey Slinger,
I'm surprised you didn't go with the Howell.

I like the .22-250 much better, but it is because I just can't get over the ugly .220 swift case and rim. It looks ancient to me. The AI looks cool <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> As far as that dude getting 4,300+ fps, look out, cuz he is running them WAY hot. I don't care if he has a 40" barrel, it ain't gonna happen without staggering pressures. I bet he only gets one or two loadings at best before the primers fall out. I know another guy that braggs all the time about how fast his standard .22-250 is. He gets 4,200 fps out of a 22" barrel with 40 grain bullets. He thinks it is cool to have smoke coming out of the bolt after each shot. He also complains that he got a crappy batch of brass that only last for two loadings. Go figure, some people just don't get it. I no longer shoot with this guy. He was just plain unsafe. Flinch

True, but the name "Swift" makes up for the case.

Why not compare the 22-250 AI to the 220 Swift AI
I just a 220 Swift AI built and are very happy with it. One advantage of the 220 AI is that it is much less likely to stretch cases either.
My vote would go to the 220 Swift AI

Or 22-243AI,or 22-284,or 224TTH,or 22-240Wby,etc,etc.

Speed comes in many packages,but the 22-250AI/Swift capacity level quenches my thirst. My CHeetahs don't overly impress me,as I think once you reach that capacity,the .243" projectiles are a better mousetrap and offer more utility.

'Course all of that is subjective....................

I thought about that Don. Was thinking along the lines of if shooting heavier bullets it would'nt lose case capacity over the standard Swift. But my goal is 50 grain bullets at close to 4000 fps and to stay away from fireforming if I can. The Swift will do that.

Yet another option...

(Don't you just hate it when that happens?) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Read up a bit on the 6mm-250. I think it's going to be inherently more accurate than the cantankerous .243 Winchester, and it'll push the 55 grain 6mm pills at 3800 and then some.

With this chambering, you would also have the option of using 90 and 100 grain bullets on larger game, if it ever struck your fancy.

This all said, if you really want a 220 Swift, get a 220 Swift, and don't let anyone talk you out of it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now that you mention it, I kinda want a Swift too... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dan

Stick, before you set up for that fast turn swift take a look at the 220 Howell. i am hoping to have mine up and shooting real soon. If you want to fondel a round I'll mail you a dummy. I think I still have your address there in "Paradice". The Howell can be made fairly simply from 25-06 brass or you can buy brass from AHR in Montana, I bought a 110 rounds that need a bit of fire forming to remove small dents in the sholders. Dies are from Hornady and bullets are 75 gr V-max, makes for a real "evil" looking round.

Bullwnkl.

The 220 Howell interests me too and is on the one day list. It's just too much-long action,lots of powder,heavy bullets,big loaded rounds, for what I'm looking for now. I bet it is evil looking though.

Winkle,

Appreciate the generousity,but my BIG 22 days are largely over. The 22-250AI/Swift is where I'd draw the line,for projectiles of interest to me.

As I am powerless,it would suprise me none to learn that I'm contemplating a Woodland camo A5 to slam another heavy barreled 223Ackley into.

Though that just might be just a hunch...................(grin)

The 6/250 is an excellent round, but I don't think it's capable of the numbers you mention. Ours is giving us 3450 fps with the 65 Vmax, and about a 100 more with the 58. More than adequate for our needs, and wonderfully accurate. But, if I want 3800 fps, then the 243 has to come out.

FVA:

Look at the wind drift of a 75 grain Horn AMAX or an 80 grain SMK at 3200 - there is nothing in .22 that comes close. The difference in jumping in wieght is immediately noticeable, unless all your shooting is done at dawn in calm conditions.

But do the heavier bullets have as explosive impact? Hey, it means something to me.

I'm completely with Don on this one... the 22-250 AI is about the same as the factory Swift, the .220 Swift AI is that much better. I had a Remington VSSF in .220 Swift (not A.I) and it was sweeeet - my all-time favorite varmit gun/cartridge combo.

hey fva
I dont want to start a fighten match again but faster is not better my old 222 has been good and very accurate for many years I thought I needed a 220 swift and used it so much that I shot the throat out of it in about 2 years but the 222 still was mors accurate back in those days we turkey hunted at 300yds and the 222 put it on the mark every time. get what you want but take it from someone who has been there and shot that bigger and faster is not always better.
bearbeater

I had a Swift long before a Deuce. After the Deuce,I was disappointed,as it simply didn't generate the Oooomph to sizzle on Vermin.

I've never had trouble making a Swift shoot exceptionally well and it flings goo through the air in a manner the Deuce could only dream of.

That satisfaction can't be underestimated and is surely why I still think highly of fast stepping 22's,which the Deuce can't ever become...................

Just traded for my 2nd swift. I lost my 1st one (40xb) to a home break-in about 6 years ago.
I had a Ruger 3 screw .45 that my brother had been wanting for years, and he had a Ruger 77V lam-stainless that I kinda was interested in. (I had loaded 200 rounds of ammo for him in 1995) soooo... we made a trade!
I got the rifle and 150 of the 200 rounds that I loaded in 95.
I had a Leupie 3X9 matt with target dot, so I mounted it.
Got .75 for 5 at 100 with 8 year old ammo. So I'm off to a good start!
This is a fun gun and easy to shoot. Can't wait to shoot up the old ammo and load some 40 grain "barrel burners"
Virgil B.

My Ruger Swifts all shot very well and I crammed a goodly amount of Re-15 through them(and Remmy versions of same).

If I was getting mean and nasty,the 50gr V-Max would get the nod. Hit a Jackrabbit amidship with one of them,while setting on the snow and you would get colors that few knew existed.................(grin)

A prairie dog town covered with snow.... Now that would be some fun! Would give a whole new meaning to the term "paint the town red". Do prairie dogs ever come up when it snows?

That would most certainly add a new dimension to the game.

I loved slurking around the High Desert country with good bino's and a full throttle Swift,looking for a bunny on the snow. With an elevation advantage,a guy can put a pretty good lick on them and really get the fur flying.

While I've shot about a bazillion Jack's,that sneak and peek approach remains my favorite. You don't get as many,as with other methods but what you get is 100% graphic and that quality gets the nod in lieu of quantity(for me).

You boys locate a snow covered PD town with the Dogs dancing a jig,shoot me a PM ASAP. I've heard rumors to that affect,though am not privvy to confirmation.............

hey stick
I prefer a shootin piece that will put the sug where I want it. I am not in for a goo shoot and I shoot alot of vermin. my 222 does every thing I want. I dont to have a caliber that gets there before I pull the trigger or leaves a pink haloe.
bearbeater

Everybody likes what they like,for reasons they like it.

A fast stepping 22 that drives tacks is easy to realize and there are lesser routes than the Swift. I'd be curious to know which rifle you had in Swift that gave accuracy fits and also whatcha had in Deuce that so impressed you?

Hinting that a Swift can't shoot itty-bitty clusters is heap big inaccurate. Dat pun intended...................

The load I had loaded for my brothers swift (now Mine!) is Speer 50 gr. TNT with IMR 4350 at about 3500 fps. I shot a magpie with this load out of my 40XB, and I'll swear it rained black and white feathers for 15 minutes!
Virgil B.

Dogs DO come out on sunny winter days, at least in Colorado. I have seen them out in force in early December in Montana, but there was no snow and still something to eat.
22-250 AI gets my vote, I myself am going to get a 6250 AI made up because I already have a 22 BR.

The pard that was mentioning the snow vermin,hails from Colorado(though he lives here) and lurks this site.

I wasn't 100% certain which type of critter he saw,as it had been a spell since he'd talked about it,so I was hesitant to make a statement I wasn't certain of. The conditions you mentioned,were likewise on his end.

Be curious to hear your findings on the 6-250AI.
With a 22BR in the stable,then why not a 6BR?..................

hey stick

the swift that I had shot the throat out was a 98mauser with a douglas barrel, it was very inpressive and used it on chucks, when I lived in west virginia. I was about 14 then andit was late 60's early 70's ,then after about 1500 shots the barrel was shot out and I traded it in for a 788 remington and still have it someone did a trigger job and I put a redfield on it and it still is a tack driver. the only thing is I trimed the stock for me, and now I am 100 pounds heavier that those days. My goal in life is to excape michigan like I excaped wva and live out the rest of my days in Alaska. My 2nd wife gets very pissed when I talk about it but my kids say lets pack. I will make it there even if I an buried there.Yes ,I have spent alot of time in Alaska and cant waite to return. oh ya my first old big itch is stillin wva were she belong

Bearbeater

I have a Ruger 77V in Swift, which has sent untold pdogs and coyotes to the happy hunting grounds. I had a 77V in .22-250, which began to show a loss of accuracy after 3000 rounds or so. Not so with the Swift. I push 55 gr. bullets at 3750 fps, and have been very happy with the results.

Im wanting to get into reloading,what is a good book on the subject?another question,what are the limites on necking down a case?say could you take a 300mag shell and put a 243cal. bullet in it?what kind of book would have these kind of answers?

Stick, I've been trying to come up with something with a larger push face on the bottom of the bullet that will still recoil like a sissy gun and be real hard to pawn off after a theft.
Thought about the 6mmX (Tubb's match cat) but I don't like the shoulder angle much. And I'm not nutso about how the 22BR feeds, either. Looking for an "in-between."
The idea is to shoot 70 to 90 and perhaps 100 grainers at our local thousand yard matches while still having a varminter for windy days when the BR won't quite do the job. I think 70s will go plenty fast for that, um, terminal effect.
Incidentally, if scratching my six itch causes me to want "more" -- it'll probably be a 6.5x57 AI.

Performance will be indistinguishable between the two aforementioned cartridges. If you are planning on building a repeater, the Swift is the way to go. I have seen several 22-250 imps both 40 and 28 degree models that had feed issues. Even the ones that do feed aren't as smooth as a swift. The swift is fast enough. I rarely use anything other than 40 grain Vmax or sometimes 50's for coyotes. These new 40 poly tipped bullets are so good that they basically render the the 55's obsolete. I can get 4100 from my Swift with 40 grain Vmax and ballistic tips. My most accurate loads are not that hot- maybe 4000. Factory Norma ammo with 50 grainers is an honest 4000 out of my rifle ( a pre-64 mod 70 with 26" tube) the only downside I have found is this is the second Swift I have had with a damnable 1/14 twist. It is great for 40 and even 50's but 55's aren't quite as accurate and I can't even shoot 60s ( I tried to load some 60 grain partitions for an antelope hunt that I got from MD- they grouped about 6" @100yds)

If you are going to go to an AI varmint rifle, I would suggest the 243 AI and use 55 grain Ballistic tips.

how about something on the 284 case in a standard action? i have seen 2.4" 284 brass. put a nice easy shoulder on it. that would spit out a vmax till next week <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
woofer

The .220 Swift that I am shooting now is my favorite varmint rifle. The Winchester brass that I bought bulk fits the rifles chamber just right. The loads that I shot last season were with this new unprimed brass and they were as accurate as any rifle that I have had to date. You can't fire full power loads from an fire formed chamber until the brass is fired once.

Since it's agreed that both cartridges have about the same performance the Swift is just a lot less bother. Of course for anyone who has not owned a "AI" chamber then of course I can understand the curiosity.

Over on AR "Pecos 45" called the Swift "The closest thing to a death ray that one can legally own"

Pecos is wrong.

As that would be a 257Wby. Though I do think highly of the Swift.................

Woofer, I believe Ross Seyfried did a custom 22-284 on a Remmie action. It was a fast twist and he used heavy 22 caliber bullets in it. IIRC it was really accurate and threw 80+/- grain bullets as fast as the 22-250 or swift pushes 55's.
It was in an older issue of Rifles or maybe Handloader.
It was a good article and an impressive rifle.

I recall that piece and wanna say it mighta even had a 30" pipe on it.................

Yup, I believe it was at least 27" or more.

Guy just up the road from me has a 22-284 that he uses for LONG range coyotes with 65gr Bergers. He's a fur hunter so uses a .14 or .17 for calling them and keeps the .22 around for those that don't want to come any closer.

BTW, he has a 6mmWSM die set and reamer so I may stop by and see if he's done that yet. A pard of his but a bull elk down post haste with one 87gr Vmax to the melon. At least that's the story I was given.

Reeder, you should get Ken Howell's book on custom cartridge design. It's expensive, but then you'd know everything you need.

Dave is Ken Howell a son or relative of John A Howell who back in
the 30's took a 348 case chopped it back to about 53mm overall
neck it down to 30 cal. and got 3100 out of it ? It was
called a 30 Howell, ackley's book page 428 Cheers nothcountry

Wouldn't happen to be Blaine would it?

you can match the velocity of max. swift loads with a 22-250 ack imp but you do not have the safety factor that you have with swift cases.

The swift case is much thicker in the base-pressure ring area than the 22-250 case, section them and you will see. I have had 5 swifts, 2 22-250's, and 1 22-250 ai, and if I was buiding another one I would use the 22-243 middlestead. With this you can easily meet exceed 4000 fps with 55 gr bullets in a 24 " barrel, and you don't have to load the snot out of it to do it.

I went to Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing School back in 1978. We used to play hookey and shoot prairie dogs just about every Wednesday afternoon. One of my fellow students took me under his wing and I can assure you that on a warm sunny day the dogs are out sunning themselves even with snow on the ground. Talk about easy to see! A brown dog on a white background is about as good as it gets. I used to use a 25-06 with 75 gr hollow points. We used to have contests to see who could boot them up in the air the highest. When the ground is muddy you just aim low on the belly. I used the 25-06 because a poor student needs to be able to hunt deer and varmints with the same rifle. Now I own a 220 Swift for the long shots, and a few 223's so I can alternate them and let them cool down a little. Please ask your friend what kind of glue he uses to hold his primers in when he gets 4400 fps with a 55 gr?
Tracy won the blue ribbon for highest "launch" the day he brought his 340 Weatherby along. He will be remembered
long after his bruised shoulder has healed!
Once you have a Swift, why would you want anything less?
GWN

What part of MN are you from GWN?

I'd go with the swift . It is to dang hard to beat a swift . You can do it , but by very little and it will cost you . There is no magic in the shape of a cartridge case shoulder . The brass at the junction of the neck and sholder of an A.I case will thicken and you will need to reem it out . There are no free rides with any high performace cartridge .

I KNOW I'm setting on over 5000pcs of Improved brass and haven't ever felt compelled to ream a neck. I don't turn necks either,except for the few tubes I foolishly requested to be tight necked.

My love for the Swift is profound,though I KNOW there are superior case designs,that are less problematic.

There are many case designs that benefit muchly,by a sharper shoulder. That either to control headspace or eliminate brass flow. To dismiss the concept,pisses in a lotta punch and many of them flavors rule various roosts(convincingly).

Everything is give and take,but stuff is only as difficult as one makes it. Minimal taper and jaunty shoulders are my marked preference,because they allow a larger fuel capacity,with a simple yank of the trigger.

Dat's a great trade,IMHO....................

Big Stick ; I don't think any case design will eliminate brass flow . That brass has to go somewhere . With the A.I. case the brass will thicken at the junction of the neck and shoulder . You may not notice case lengthening very much mainly because the A.I case becomes shorter than the parent case after fireforming .
It will take a few warm reloads before you will notice case neck thickening .

A chamber cut to minimum SAMMI spec . or less goes along way to increase brass life .

I'll take the old 220 swift and save myself the time and trouble of fireforming cases and extra expence of custom dies .

Brass "flow" is a broad generalization and multi factors can be attributed to case lengthening.

With bushing dies(less an expander ball),sharp shoulders and sane pressures,growth is nill at most.

A good chamber,good brass and proper sized dies are positive attributes,regardless of case design.

I've got W/W based 25-284 hulls that I've shot over 25 times and have never been turned,reamed nor annealed. I put the coals to them and that case boasts "Improved-ish" mechanical design features,on top of being necked down multi diameters. They are of modest taper and sharp shoulders. It is a WONDERFUL chambering IMHO.

Point was/is,one can beat up his brass and shorten it's useful life,via numerous means. Driving racy brass,doesn't mandate shortened case-life or a host of mundane chores to keep it in order.

Fact is,the contrary has been my observation,regarding all such creations I've dabbled with. However,now and again,one can run into brass of less than optimal tenacity. Norma immediately springs to my mind and especially in Swift.

I'd be the last to piss on the Swift,as the rifles I've had so chambered,have been nothing shy of spectacular. That doesn't mean I think it is the ultimate example of the Cartridge Designer's Craft. It's a funky design and a bastard by nature,though that doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity to haul ass and ability to bughole.

That might could be why I'm sweet on it,because it works farrr better than it "should".

I don't see fireforming as a dirty word,as it is another excuse to practice and my highest hopes for all of my tubes,come only after their respective hulls are no longer virgins. "Extry" die expense is dick too,so I cain't buy that either.

Brass that looks fast,generally is and does so less extraneous quirks. The 22-250AI looks and plays the part capably............................

I am about 1/2 hr west of Minneapolis, which is to close if you ask me!
GWN

Could be, probably is, and yes! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If the Blaine your referring kills A LOT of coyotes, then the latter!

Big Stick ; I hear you . I hope I did not come across as knocking the 22-250 A.I . The A.I. case design is as good as any .
Had a 6mm Rem. A.I in a 40X action ,7# hart barrel , beddeded in a MacMillan Br stock . Did not find anything special about the A.I over the standard 6mm Rem . Some of my best groups were fired while fireforming cases .
Haveing a 22-250 A.I or the 220 swift is a matter of personal taste . To each his own .

Big Stick,
Just curious about barrel life on your "improved" 22-250.
I got to thinking that your barrel could be worn out before you finish fireforming all your cases??
I had a buddy go into a frenzy in a dogtown once with a 222
Reminton. We shot for 12 hrs nonstop that rifle was never the same after that. I was alternating between my 25-06 with 51 grs IMR4064 and a 75 gr Hornady, and my 220 Swift Ruger #1. I'll never forget the ranchers reply when we stopped to say thank you as we were leaving. He said "If you boys didn't know how to shoot when you got here, you sure should by now!
I think we were the early discoverers of "paintball".
Have a good one!
GWN

I shot the Swifts more than the 22-250AI's and the 223AI retired all of 'em and is my MAINSTAY. I've put over 4000rds through a couple Swifts and they kept hanging them in there.

My 308 VSSF likely has my personal record for hyper temperatures and insane round counts in a single outing. It is still incredibly accurate and I could not begin to speculate how many cases of milsurp ball I've whistled through it but it would be impressive to actually know.

I'm a firm believer in that some barrels seemingly refuse to puke. I've been purposely trying to ruin that 308 tube for a long while and it shrugs the abuse happily.

With today's lasers and good glass,the Big 22's no longer truly interest me. The 223AI is the ticket IMHO................

The Gopher Rifle and Revolver Club in Minnesota has a 1000yd range. The guys tell me they like the 260/308 and the 6.5/284 almost equally. Legend has it one brave soul shot 300 gr boatails out of his 338 magnum. You shoot 20 shots prone in this match and he said he really had to dig his toes in to keep from sliding back. That load should be big enough for most any varmints!
GWN