I heard today from a fairly reliable source that the fine folks at Federal Cartridge Company are producing so many cartridges that they are using ALL the primers they can make for cartridge production - and they are buying some more from the folks at CCI!
I have not seen Federal BR Primers on a store shelf in so long that it scares me.
What scares me is I have dozens of Rifles tuned/handloaded with Federal BR Primers - both small rifle size and large rifle size!
It would be a BIG hassle to "adjust" all my Rifles and loads to another brand of primer.
Shudder to think of it even.
I hope this is one rumor that is not true but like I said its been so long since I have seen any Federal Bench Rest primers on a shelf I wonder if this rumor has a basis in fact?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
I haven't been able to buy Federal primers here in BC since Jan. Been hearin all kinds of b.s about it to. One shop owner whom I call b.s. Bill said we were going to invade mexico and the govt was hoggin all the primers rotfl!!! Canada invading anybody hahahaha
VG you know I switched to Wolf primers awhile back. That was after using Federal 205M's for a number of years. They are working great and I've had to make zero changes to many of my loads. My feeling is Federal is done in my book. Oh and the Wolf primers are around $15 cheaper than the Federal ones not something to sneeze about. So for nearly every 1K of primers I use I just bought 2/3's of a pound of powder.
VG, for about two months now, one of my local shops has been getting a regular weekly shipment of primers and ammo - from Federal. He's charging $50/1000 for the Fed Gold Medals, and getting it.
Other folks can have my share.
I heard similar a month or so ago at a local shop. The dealer I talked to said the war was taking a large part of them and both ammo and component hoarders were scarfing up the rest.
The same shop a week ago though had a couple dozen bricks of CCI mag primers in all flavors LP, SR, LR, with a few cartons of Rem 6 1/2 9 1/2 and 7 1/2. Prices were not real good though $34-$54/1000. I have not see a Federal primer in a year around here. I don`t doubt CCI is helping them with primers for ammo production, they wouldn`t be the 1st company to something of that sort, concidering they are both owned by the same parent company anyway.
The "war effort" comment is a bit dated. It was true about two years ago, as the ever-behind-the-power-curve government sought to fill its empty ammunition stocks with massive orders. That just about ended any primer supply to retail, but there was still lots of inventory and product in the pipeline. But the pipes emptied with the past election.
Ammunition/component companies have three production priorities: government contracts, their own ammunition production and all others - in that order. We are among that last group of "other."
They are all shipping what they can, but the pipe isn't full. The small ammo companies, plus the hoarders and the scalpers who placed multi-million primer orders are first in line for what flows. So there is precious little left for us hobby reloaders.
It IS beginning to ease up. Take heart.
Just bought some Federal small pistol primers locally back in late June/early July. Same gun shop had a bunch of Federal primers of different sizes in stock just about 2 weeks ago.
He was limiting to 500 of any type to customers when I bought them. Now, he will only sell if you buy powder/bullets.
Oh by the way did you hear David Tubb just won at Camp Perry with yes Wolf primers.
Eat your heart out Federal.
May be coincidence, but I JUST got a PR email. The first paragraph:
WINCHESTER AWARDED DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY CONTRACT
Winchester� Ammunition was recently awarded a contract by the Immigration, Customs and Enforcement (ICE) division of the Department of Homeland Security to supply a maximum of 200 million, 40 cal. rounds over the next five years.
That contract alone will suck up some 40 million SP primers a year, not to mention brass and bullets (the powder impact would be minimal, naturally.)
Now you see how the left is trying to control component sales. They have no need for 25% 10 % that much ammo.
I have heard good things about Wolf primers too. Haven't seen Federals lately.
The local cabela's has had a couple of boxes of Federal primers on the shelves for a while. Not sure what flavor, as they have a limit of 100 primers per customer, and a box is ~$5, while bricks are just over $30, so I probably won't be buying anything that I'm not completely out of there, until that policy changes. There are federal primers on the shelves; CCI, remington, and magtech are more common though...
Hawk_Driver: I am happy there are some Federal primers down in your neck of the woods.
But in the five NW states I regularly peruse I have not seen a Federal BR Rifle primer on a shelf of a store in MANY MANY months now!
I see some being "scalped" here and there at gunshows and small gunshops but a legitimate store with human prices of recent - absolutely not!
Sounds like your gunshop owner is TRYING to disburse his Federal primers to REAL reloaders and not hoarders or scalpers.
Good for him.
And plan your purchases of Federal primers to preserve your future needs.
Thanks for the info from down south.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Bucktail: If those $30.00 a brick Federal primers are 205M's or 210M's I would buy all they had - for my own use.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
RockyRaab: Yikes - more demand for primers by the gov.
Oh well - "I'll get by".
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
RockyRaab: I agree with your prognosis and will abide by your words of encouragement!
Your quote: "Ammunition/component companies have three production priorities: government contracts, their own ammunition production and all others - in that order. We are among that last group of "other."
They are all shipping what they can, but the pipe isn't full. The small ammo companies, plus the hoarders and the scalpers who placed multi-million primer orders are first in line for what flows. So there is precious little left for us hobby reloaders.
It IS beginning to ease up. Take heart".
My heart is slightly less troubled by your learned advice!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
They're limiting us to 100 primers/visit, so you can't buy a brick.
Bought 3K 210M's off the shelf of my local about a month or so ago and got 2K last week of Winchester Large Rifle Primers and 16 lbs of Varget. He has a few K's of CCI in SR & LR in Mag now. They trickle in, gave 32 for the 210M's and 26 for the WLR 127ea for the 8lbs of Varget. Got all kinds of powder just aren't seeing a lot of primers I want and don't really need any. Rumor was just a while back the Federal was putting in a new primer line and it was "from a good source"!
Brunos got in a bunch of Federals this week.
Hard telling what's left.......
Aalf: I "mosied" on over to Brunos web site and of the 14 (fourteen) categories of Federal primers 12 (twelve) were NOT IN STOCK!
The 2 (two) categories that were instock were $49.95 per 1,000 or 5 cents PER PRIMER and that is before the exhorbitant haz mat fees and shipping are "figgered" in!
So I would be looking at 7 to 8 cents per primer delivered - thanks but, NO THANKS!
As far as I am concerned Brunos is to be considered a scalper along with many others!
Thanks for the "tip" though.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Enios: Maybe I should move to Alabama - if I recall correctly you are the second Alabaman that has been able to obtain Federal primers of late.
Thanks for the info and the price checks.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
VarmintGuy,
They are getting closer to you... I bought 200 Fed Small Rifle (the limit at Black Sheep) in Coeur d'Alene a week ago. Good luck
Brunos got in a bunch of Federals this week.
Hard telling what's left.......
They can choke on them. Bruno is a scalper.
We've had Federal SP primers in all week here. I just bought a thousand, $31.99 if I remember correctly. They still had some on the shelf at noon today.
Brunos got in a bunch of Federals this week.
Hard telling what's left.......
They can choke on them. Bruno is a scalper.
It was just a post to show that Federal dribbled out some primers that direction. Didn't say I liked the guy. I've had enough of dealings with him to form more than the scalper title.
Now, whether a person will pay X amount, only he knows.
A lot of things seem to have put pressure on supplies over the last year, not the least of which is our focusing on it causing more "panic" in our own ranks. Couple the "real" things, gov. contracts with massive fear and panic buying of both loaded ammo and components with the tendency to hoard what comes into the market, as quickly as it arrives, and we see the results.
I HOPE the factories haven't expanded or hired more employees to deal with the current reloading crush. Our shortage WILL end and excess capacity would suddenly become increased overhead to be covered with the selling prices, for no real need.
Shooting is a hobby and my hunting ammo needs are small, I do have a life outside all this so I am NOT buying at the current inflated prices. I believe the sooner we take the panic out of our buying, the sooner store shelves will be properly stocked - if not over stocked - and prices will fall, a lot!
The "law of supply and demand" works on both ends. I, for one anyway, will remember this. Local dealers seeking to rip us off during this time will see precious little of my "demand" again.
Only thing we haven't had a shortage of is authoritative, "Hey guys, this ain't no sheet, I heard from a guy who knows ...." rumors!
I almost put in an order to Bruno's yesterday. Hate to pay that price but after calling and stopping around locally and finding squat what's the choice? I'm out.
I heard today from a fairly reliable source that the fine folks at Federal Cartridge Company are producing so many cartridges that they are using ALL the primers they can make for cartridge production - and they are buying some more from the folks at CCI!
VarmintGuy
not surprising...they're owned by the same company.
http://www.atk.com/customer_solutions_armamentsystems/cs_as_cammo_default.asp
As I see it, the problem with the American suppliers NOT gearing up for 2 years'-worth of super-high demand is that the foreign suppliers (like Wolf) are so much cheaper when the domestics simply let demand drive up supply. I feel a great deal of trepidation over ATK's prospects (just as one example) whenever things go back to 'normal.' The reason is because they've been quite clear with me that they see today's prices as a new norm that they don't want to do anything to lower. That kind of thinking will simply assure that folks like Wolf take their market share away, so that WHEN prices do indeed go back to more historical norms, ATK and the other domestics will have a drastically reduced piece of that market.
I sure hope the domestic manufacturers can see far enough in front of their noses, and that they'll have the adult maturity to act accordingly, to prevent that.
"Gearing up" sounds easy, but primer-making machines are essentially a custom-made thing, with several years' worth of lead time involved. Not cheap, either. Then there's the fact that primer pellets are made by hand, and is fairly hazardous. Training would take time. Finally, there are the inevitable environmental impact statements required for explosives production.
I think you'd be talking about several years of preparation and planning before the first "extra" primer came off the new line - if ever.
Perhaps, but then ATK laid off a reasonably large number of CCI employees involved in primer manufacturing last year. They later came back to some of those laid off employees to ask them back. So, it's not hard to see that ATK wasn't trying very hard to be at max capacity without adding new machinery. Don't know whether they are now or not.
That's a most reasonable assessment. It also goes to show that it's a darned difficult business to make forecasts in, huh?
Varmintguy - I have 800 (799 actually) Fed goldmedal primers (GM205M) that you can have if you want. I'd trade for a like number of Rem 7-1/2 small rifle primers or a 1K of CCI large pistol primers. Let me know if you want 'em....
Tom
Tominboise: I just traveled to the annual Hunters Rendevous in Ennis, Montana today. Its an annual event/sale at the Shedhorn Sports Store in Ennis. Its a "big deal" as they had 15 factory reps in from the various folks (Leupold, S&W, Remington, Cooper, Springfield Armory, Federal, Nikon etc etc etc). Along with numerous arms and munitions on sale.
I could not get within a triple arms length of the Federal guy! I tried several different times but it was no use. Finally my travel companions tired of my attempts to get within arms length of him so we left with my myriad of questions unanswered.
I did have a GREAT visit with the Primos factory rep and bought some more "calls" from him!
One of my cranky travel companions REFUSED to buy anything as the line for checkout was just "to stupid"!
I laughed at him and bought my ammo and stuff with only maybe a 14 to 15 minute wait online!
This Montana native has never seen a "long check-out line"!
This is an "upscale" gunshop in high dollar real estate country and it was VERY well attended!
At one time there were 105 people in the single line waiting to check out amongst three cashiers!
They had four people doing background checks on the phones and doing the 4473's for gunbuyers - again folks were online here as well waiting their turn to do the paperwork and background check.
They had Hornady 17 HMR 17 gr. V-Max ammo on sale for $9.99 a box - limit one carton (1,000 rounds)!
Anyway they had NO Federal BR primers at all nor any Remington 7 1/2 primers either.
I have one Rifle that uses Remington 7 1/2's and I only have about 400 of them to my name.
I appreciate your offer and if I come across any Remington 7 1/2's I will turn you on to them or buy them and trade you for the Federal 205M's.
Thanks for thinking of me - I appreciate it.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
OK, if you want to buy these outright, let me know....
Tom
I worked as a temp once for Federal Cartridge in Anoka MN.
They work all three shifts.
The machinery I saw was old. (This was a few years ago.)
Now they hired a weekend shift so they are working 24/7.
I was told that the only difference in the Match Primers was the packaging.
They all get tested and the most uniform ones are packaged as Match Primers.
I was impressed with the quality control and would buy them myself.
whelennut
I worked as a temp once for Federal Cartridge in Anoka MN.
They work all three shifts.
The machinery I saw was old. (This was a few years ago.)
Now they hired a weekend shift so they are working 24/7.
I was told that the only difference in the Match Primers was the packaging.
They all get tested and the most uniform ones are packaged as Match Primers.
I was impressed with the quality control and would buy them myself.
whelennut
Well let me share a little information with you. I'm a long time user of Federal 205M primers and used them exclusively in Benchrest.
This spring I went together with some guys and we got scalped to the tune of $48 per K plus hazmat and shipping for some Federals because we were all running low and wanted to make it through the BR season.
Well we got our primers and I shot a couple of matches. My groups seemed to be off a little and I thought it was me. But it continued. So I decided to do a little testing. I picked up some Wolf primers and my groups improved with them.
I took the 6 PPC back to the range last week for some load/chorograph work. I was using the same lots of bullets, brass, power and 205M primers. Now before this lot of primers I picked up this year using the same components I tested with my extreme spread always ran between 10 to 12 fps. With the new primers being the only thing new in my load as I ran them over the chronograph there was a great change. My best ES was 24 fps and the worst was 98 fps. With my old match load I've never had this problem. This was a test sample of five 5 shot groups.
I'm going to retest this week with both the Wolf and Fed 205's and see what gives. I'd suggest if you guys know your loads and ES data and are using Federals that you retest your load and see what happens. I'll reserve my judgment on Federals quality control until Wednesday.
17ACKLEYBEE: Yikes - now I have to worry about my beloved Federal primers "going south on me"!
What next?
Well the important thing is that you get to shooting back to your normal very high intensity and proficiency level.
Aaaahhhh... the Varmints may not know I am using "second rate primers" nowadays but I will.
Disconcerting your recent testing.
Please keep us advised.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Whelennut: Thanks for your insights and information.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
I read an article that quoted a spokesman from Winchester, I think there was a link to it from this site, but I can't find it. Anyway, the spokesman said that when the Clinton scare happened, it took 6 fiscal quarters to refill the pipeline. I expect that it will take somewhere around a year and a half to 2 years this time as well. It's about 2 months shy of November. Ammo is starting to show up on the shelves in most calibers; not always the brand or type you may want. Same with bullets and brass. Most powders are showing up on the shelves as well, but 8 lb'ers are tough to find. Primers are toughest to find, but they're showing up on the shelves again, not necessarily the brands, quantities, or prices you'd like, but they're there.
Yep, I do think things are loosening up.
I just picked up 1000 Federal primers today.
Been a long wait.
How did you make out price wise?
I paid the regular price, $30, + 6% fo da governator.
Last time I saw Federal Primers, I bought two bricks of F210 and F215m. I only have one rifle that shoots 210's so those should last me for a while, but I have about 5 that shoot the 215M's
Bucktail: Excellent perspective on our current situation!
I have some severe shortage for a couple of my Rifles but for the majority of them I have about a two year supply of components.
I hope your analysis is correct!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy