Just to let you know, you don't HAVE to buy Rem brass for your beloved Fireball. You can squish down 223 brass.
I started using my 22BR die to NS only, but finally scored an old set of CH FL dies in 221.
Friend bought some PMC in the Obama panic, but when we went to reload it, the necks were "nonstandard" thin, so I inherited it and began thinking evil thoughts.
So, I cleaned them huge, blowtorched them red, lubed them massively, crushed them down with the 221 FL die, took a tin snips and whittled off the necks, jammed them in the drill press with the Lee case trimmer --
and the necks were too fat by 2 thousandths.
DARN.
So, lucky me, but my Dad had a neck turner. I'd sworn long ago that I'd never EVER turn necks. I figured out a way to chuck the turner in the drill press and after some messing around I got the right neck thickness.
Shoots great, much killing.
I've since run another batch with some range scrounge FC brass...if brass has dents from whatever cause, it's almost certain to be a cull no matter how much lube you pour on. This brass was pretty beat up and I'm looking at maybe a 30 percent reject rate after the first clean, resize and tumble before any of the major steps.
Bottom line is, if you wind up with some FREE BRASS from your pals and don't know what to use it for....
That's a whole bunch easier than what I've been doing with the surplus 223 brass. You wouldn't believe the steps needed to make 257 Weatherby brass from LC 223.
Things really sped up when I got a tig welder.
Lucky for me I have a brother-in-law that enjoys futzing in his gun room and forms all of the 221 Fireball cases out of 223 cases that I want. However, when I want 20 VarTarg cases, he has to turn the necks. He only complains a little, though.
ComparAtively speaking 221 FB commercial brass is CHEAP...I buy it 500 cases at a time for three FB cals...futzing around making brass is a total waste of time I could be using to build another rifle, go shooting, reload ammo for one of my many other shooters...HE** I don't even have a TV and waste too much time on forums as it is.
Many times skinflints pay 3-5 times what commercial brass costs in time and effort and running in circles...if you were my broinlaw I would be sure to extract a very LARGE payment in another area for the PITA you might be causing me...or put you to work cleaning something disgusting to wake you up.
I've been in this game a very long time...I had one of the first and probably the only 221 FB that hit my area, along with the first chrono...WAY the he** back in the day...and the 223 was just as scarce...I bought 3 boxes of loaded rounds with the pistol and then scrounged 222 Rem brass to make more...Ya'll don't know just how easy you got it in todays world.
I really hate it when people come over and want me to drop what I'm doing and do their gunsmithing/reloading/lathe and mill work...all for free and get huffy when I tell them I will do anything they want for $100 per hour, 2 hours minimum, but I can't get to if for 3-4 weeks.
Every hunting season they start dropping by...haven't been around since a searson or more past, but they act like we're long lost buddies.
Your broinlaw sounds like a nice guy...what are you doing for HIM??
Luck
Oh, its not THAT bad...
If I had to charge for it, or buy the brass, waving the plastic is a much better option.
I have a Dillon 650, which helps crank through the cases. Just dump and run. If I was limited to a single-stage, I wouldn't.
Everything besides the neck-snipping is mass production with power tools, and besides, the weather was icky, there was nothing on TV, no social events on either the external or internal calendars, AND I felt like making a mess. So it came out even.
The other reason I bothered is to have different headstamps for keeping my sorts separate. Kind of hard to do that when Remington is the only supplier.
I did the same thing for my own 20VT Dave. I initially bought 500 Rem cases then a friend built a 20VT as well so he got half the cases. I was offered 600 222 cases free so it was a no brainer to use them. After annealing them I shortened a 222 neck die to 221 length plus 2 thou, run them all through, then drilled a piece of hardwood so that the right amount of neck poked through for a quick rub against the linisher belt. Through the 20VT body die and a final trim, inside and outside deburring, then on to neck turning stage before final neck sizing .
Of course I acually enjoy these case prep operations so it was a win win for me.
Von Gruff.
I make fireball from 223 because the Remington brass sucks
blanket,
I'd greatly appreciate hearing about how the .221 Remington brass sucks. Thanks!
John, so you have been happy with the quality of Remington fireball brass over the past five years? Maybe they send you good stuff but what I have bought has been crap. Split necks, rolled shoulders and case mouths folded in out of the bag. As a matter of fact, Midway replaced a 500 round lot about 4 years ago because of problems and the replacement wasn't any better. Russ
Russ,
Remington hasn't "sent" me any .221 brass. I've purchased it all either from Midway or off the Campfire Classifieds. The first batch I bought from Midway was around 2 to 2-1/2 years ago.
Maybe Remington replaced their forming dies, or stepped up QC after the big Obama-panic in 2008, but the .221 brass I've bought has been damn consistent.
I expect some dented case mouths in bulk brass, but examine them and open them up enough to size beforehand. Haven't yet encountered a folded-in neck.
John, I just went to Midways site and read the reviews on the 221 FB brass and I have not been the only one that have had these problems. Three other gents in my area I know have experienced the same issues over the past with the Remington brass being hit or miss. Have been shooting the 221 and 17 MK4 for a long time and have went to making the cases out of 222 and 223 because of the quality of Remington brass. If memory serves me right in 2003 I sent over 100 bad cases to Remington out of a lot of a 1000 that had splits that extended over the shoulder in many cases. The rest of the cases out of that lot did not last long before cracking as well. The cases that are made from new brass in 222 and 223 using Redding form dies seem to last until you lose them
All I can say is that in the last 2-3 years I've bought more than 1000 rounds of Remington .221 brass and have experienced very few problems. Necks are very consistent in thickness, and I can't recall any splitting.
In fact the only "problem" I've experienced is that the necks are just thin enough that I don't have to use the expander ball in my RCBS dies. This is no doubt a happy accident, but it's occurred with other brass and dies--and results in VERY straightly sized brass and small groups.
Quit posting stuff like that, or Im gonna hafta change my mind on a future build....
You
Are
Getting
Very
Sleepy.
You
Need
A
Fire
Ball.
Okay! Wake up, Ingwe!
I'm fine with the REM FB brass I got, three sacks from the same lot that I lucked into locally at a decent price. But in other calibers, the Rem has been hit or miss, more so than say, Winchester.
Maybe if the Fireball or other variations get "discovered" other makers will see the light. But if not, it's nice to have options, even messy ones.
I like to use mil 5.56 brass to make my 221 Fireball cases. It's not that hard to do and I don't mind speding the time during winter months to make a few. I'm still on my first batch, the things last forever. I've refined my process from what is shown in this link but you get the idea.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=54312&highlight=flashhole
Just thought I'd follow up:
Turns out I bought my first .221 brass (500 rounds) from Midway in March of 2010. I also bought another batch of new brass off the Campfire Classifieds a year or so later.
All has been fine, so evidently Remington listened to the complaints.
Blanket: I load Remington factory brass for my 17 Remington Fireball Rifle (a Remington 700 Model VSF with Nikon 6.5x20 scope) and from day one this Rifle has shot very well and the brass has held up well.
I obtained 1/2" accuracy (5 shots at 100 yards in dead calm air) virtually instantly with this Rifle using the Remington factory brass.
I also have two all factory stock Varmint Rifles in caliber 221 Remington Fireball that shoot VERY well using Remington factory 221 Fireball brass.
The Rifles in 221 Fireball are a Kimber of Oregon Ultra-Varmint and a Remington 700 Classic.
Some years ago I had a custom Varmint Rifle built in caliber 17 MachIV it has a Jewell trigger, a Shilen stainless barrel and a Leupold 8.5x25 variable scope.
I use Remington 221 Fireball brass for my handloads.
The last four sightin verification trips to the range with this Rifle (in four different years!) produced groups measuring .264", .339", .322" and .262" - all were shot in dead calm air conditions!
You can't get a Rifle to shoot Varmint type bullets (Berger 25's) this consistently well, with poor brass.
I disagree with your contention that Remington 221 Fireball brass (and 17 Remington Fireball brass) sucks.
I am VERY happy with their brass.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
My contention of it is that some of it has sucked and some of it hasn't.....
Opinions vary. I have had a lot of bad fireball brass from Remington and you have had none yet....Russ
While I have not used that much( 300 pieces).221 brass the Remington stuff I have has been pretty good. I have 50 pieces that have been loaded 11 times with 20.0gr of AA1680 and 40 gr bullets and they are still going. Have not lost a single case to a split neck or primer pocket loosening. Now the stuff I turned into Mach IV fodder did not last that long.
Now don't get me started on .218 bee brass from Winchester.
Flash, I finally got around to hitting your link. Enjoyed it considerably.
My process is more brutish, with cheaper tools, more powered steps versus hand work, and I annealed before the fun started.
But yeah....
Another note.
Just before winter bit for good, I went out for a quick shoot with the FC brass. I had 20 rounds loaded, sorted into ugly and pretty concentric.
Got up to the range just in time for a snow squall, probably 2 inches per hour. Then the squall went away, dead nuts calm with a few flakes straight down.
Sighted in starting with the uglies, had enough for three groups on the record paper. Had one bad flyer that wrecked a one-hole group, but the case came out fine, average aggregate with that flyer was about .850. Would definitely work on gophers.
Problem was neck splits, shoulder pops, et cetera. Survivors fireformed nicely.
The post-shot FC cull rate was 25 percent, for PMC only 8 percent. Kind of disappointing that so many necks split after all that work, including annealing.
Between the two types, the FC took significantly greater force in sizing compared to the PMC. I have not sectioned a case yet, but probably will now for better understanding.
Glad you read the link. I like to use military 223 brass because it lets me turn the necks to a uniform thickness. I'm at the max neck thickness my gun can tolerate. That may help me a bit with reduced neck splits. I get very high yeilds from my reforms. The losses seem to occur most at the initial sizing step when the case comes out of the die looking like a long neck beer bottle. The neck will crease or the shoulder will collapse. I did not get high yeilds when reforming commercial 223 brass. The commercial Remington and Winchester cases I reform do not require neck turning but they seem prone to split necks.
Another update. We're not having winter, so I sneaked up to the range for a few quick groups and trigger time. Aside from the sinking feeling I need to re-do all my 22BR loads, I fired some more of the Federal, 35 and 40 VMs over the same charge of Blue Dot. Ten rounds, two groups of five.
35s went .544; the 40s (which the barrel likes best) went .455.
But out of ten shots fired, I got four more culls.
I guess I'll shoot the rest up either on sneak sessions, or spend them on gophers this spring and see how many cases I have left. If I have fifty left out of the original hundred, I frankly will be surprised.
Will try sizing ten after I'm shot through -- if any more die, I will anneal ten more and then size those, just to see what the final cull on this will be. But for now, if you want to do this experiment, don't bother with Federal brass.
Therapy for all you eccentric skinflints on this thread.........
http://www.nosler.com/New-Products.aspxPLOTBOSS
That's not therapy, that's sticker electroshock.
Skinflint...............grin!
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