Are IMR3031 and IMR4895 good powders for .223? Those are the main powders I use and would like to cut down having to get others for reloading .223. Does that sound like a good plan?

Not a good plan from my perspective.

I let my guns decide which powders they like, I don't dictate...

TAC is my latest .223 powder, although a number of powders in that general burn rate will work.

The two powders you listed will work. Whether or not your gun agrees with that is the question.

DF

As Dirtfarmer said, those two powders will work, but may not be your best option. My 223s seem to do best with TAC, Benchmark, and CFE 223 with bullets up to 60 grains and Varget for the heavier stuff. If your powders don't satisfy you or your rifle, I'd give the above a try.

Not to be contrary to the above gentlemen, but both 3031 and 4895 give stellar accuracy in each of my 223s, all bolt actions, but I do have more than a couple of them...

while the 223 is not really finicky with most powders, I could live with the above two powders for all of my 223 work if I had to...they were that accurate...

in fact both work well in any caliber I regular shoot... from the 223, to a 338 Win Mag...

Guess I'm a nut for powders. I've accumulated a bunch of different powders, just to have what I want for most any project.

Norma MRP has been hard to find for a long time. I was able to buy 8#'s from MidwayUSA while it was available, also got a can of N-217, which is the current version of MRP-2 and a can of URP, today's version of N-204, a powder I used years back and found to be a real performer.

So, limiting myself to two or three powders...

I'm at the other end of that spectrum...

DF

IMR 4895 is my fave in the .223�.

They work fine, but those long sticks are hard to get in the case. Ball powders are much easier.

Awww..., Ingwe probably weighs each and every load...

No difference to him...

DF

Nope, I throw them�.

Ugh...the list of "go to" 223 powders. Probably not a longer list of powders exist.

IMHO - H4895, Benchmark, 2460, 2230C, & TAC. (in no order)

My absolute preference - OLD H4895 - the old style, super black powder - good luck finding it.

Shot my smallest groups with OLD H4895, but all the others are right on spot as well.

No mention of BLC2?

When I first started loading the .223, back in the Dark Ages, IMR4895 worked very well.

But that was back when I loaded all my centerfires with three powders: IMR4895, IMR4350 and H4831. These days I'm more like Dirtfarmer, trying a pile of powders. Life would be simpler with only three, but what the hell....

Yeah, but what fun would that be...?

One could become very "un-loony" seeing how FEW powders he could use...

Makes me shudder to even consider thinking that way...

DF

I'm a hybrid of you two gents...

I settle on just a few powders for most of my needs.. then at the same time, I love to spend time at the reload bench and 'explore' and answer the what ifs that pop into my head...

I am sure I am like most campfire members....

I have a lot more powder and variety of powders, than you can find in almost any store in the nation....

things are that crazy....

Yeah, I can smoke most any gun store I can think of regarding power variety, probably quantity, too.

It is a crazy time.

DF

I'm still pretty much in the dark ages and try to limit my number of powders. Trouble is a gun writer friend will occasionally 'gift' me a pound of this or that to try�.and it would be rude of me to turn him down�.

Maybe that good bud is trying to tell you something, trying to coax you out of the dark ages...

DF

Well���he got me to like TAC

Poobah, I thought it was past your bedtime!

Its morning now, and I'm up!

GFY!

Breakfast�

Don't know that it's the best but IMR 4895 has worked well for me in everything up to 55 gr bullets in the 223 to 150s in the 30-06. For my rifles if all I had and could get was IMR 4895 I wouldn't complain too much.

I've used and am still using Ramshot X-Terminator in several 223s for bullets up to 55 gr. Good accuracy, velocity, meters well and burns clean. According to the Western Powder chart the burn rate is comparable to RL 10X.

Admit it. You have...


Weiner Envy!

That was Rommel's breakfast�..


Rommel- aka "real" dog.

Rocky said, and I quote: "That's mighty big talk for a one-eyed fat man." (He's seen too many John Wayne movies).






But Lacey is the one you have to watch out for. She's a real killer -- and shredder of leopard-print thongs.

Look like 'tender vittles' to the Big Dog�..

The one on the left is a good looking dog but what the hell is that mutt on the right ...?

H-4895 is better than IMR-4895, only geezers with weiner envy like that stuff...

Gee LBP, when did you wake up one morning and realize you had suddenly become a democrat???

sorry to hear about your stroke......

My thoughts too. I started using BLC-2 pushing 70 grain TSXs out of a long barrel. I like it better than TAC and Varget for 53 grainers out of a short barrel too now.

You will smoke a turd in hell for that�..

So far, no one has mentioned IMR 8208 XBR. Takes a whole pen full of ink to write it on the tag in the box of ammo, but works really well for me.

E Blair: I am currently loading for 13 Varmint guns in caliber 223 Remington - over the years I have never load tested either of the powders you would like to use in any of my 223's.
I have recently bought a 14th Varminter in caliber 223 Remington and THE first powder I will test in it is H 4895 - if that powder does not work I will go to my second most successful powder in my 223's which is H 335.
I have always had good results with H 4895 and usually its the top performer for me.
In this day and age I sincerely commend and agree with your trying to keep your powder types to a minimum!
In this case though H 4895 has been so successful for me I recommend you at some point try it.
Maybe you should try your IMR 4895 powder first it may just be dandy in your 223.
Best of luck to you in your testing.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I have settled on Benchmark as my powder of choice for .223. It aint the best, it aint the worst, but I like it.

I hate the "is this a good powder" questions if they do not tell with what bullet. What may be great with a 55gr bullet can be useless with a 90 and vice versa. I like N550 and N133 with the heavies, benchmark and BLC2 with lighter stuff.

Benchmark here too.

GreggH

Yeah, but that was pretty good.

I use Benchmark with 50 gr to 69gr, and it works great for me across the spectrum. My rifle wont spin the heavies, so thats not a huge concern for me.

I use H-4895 for 53 gr thru 75 gr bullets.

H335

Varget is my go to powder when I can find it.

TAC is basically less-touchy H 335. Good stuff, I worked up some loads for some friends and they shoot great. But not MY jug, and the Obamapanic means no TAC for ME. And I'm too classy to beg. Soon.
But you can't go bad wrong with H-4895. It works in lots of rifles. In the 223, I especially like H-4895 for 50s and 55s, and Varget for anything heavier.

I run 8208xbr, and it is easily the best powder that I have ever used. Temperature insensitive, easy to meter, and it gives better velocity and accuracy than h4895. I am sending 82 bergers at 2910, with no pressure out of my .223.

I use Varget in a pinch, and TAC as a last resort.

4895 will be about perfect in the 223 for nearly all bullet weights from 40-65.

H4895 gave me great accuracy and top velocity with 50 gr Sierras in a 700 V I had. It went thru the Uniflow like Lincoln logs at best . All I run in AR's or bolt 223 is ball powder now H335 or better yet TAC. Magnum Man

It is only natural that folks all have their favorite powder, for their favorite loads. For years, I only loaded Sierra 60gr. hp varmit bullets, over 26 grs. of AA2520.However, this last year, I have been unable to get Sierra bullets, had to go to the 62 gr. Nosler Varmaggedon. Still using the AA2520 tho.
Twink

I have had great results wit win 748 it shoots good in all my 223s

Since you have them, might as well see if they are sufficiently accurate. Assuming this is a bolt gun and you are shooting bullets up to 55 grains, I personally would start with W748. If that didn't do it, H335 would be my next pick. Good luck!

H335. I know the naysayers will tell you it is so dirty that you will have to take a shower and wash your truck afterwards, but don't believe the hype.

If i was stuck with just one powder for the 223 It would be H335

aww I let it run long enough without causing a free for all starting and my existence being cursed...

but my favorite most commonly used powders for the 223 are
1. SR 4759 2. Blue Dot 3. RL 7 4. IMR 4198....

I run mainly 50 grain bullet weights and under.. although 52 grain Speer HPs and 53 grain HPs slip by at times...

for velocity, with those weights, my first reached for powder is RL 7...

give me a moment while I go put on my flame retardant suit..

okay, I'm back... Fire and Flame away...

No flames Seafire, sounds like good numbers for your uses.

I just loaded up 5 shells with IMR4064 and the 55gr sierra spfb. to test. While my normal choice is Varget, 2nd is H4895. IMR4064 was available. All 1lb of it.

Benchmark, H335, and Varget does everything I need to do in 223.

ya know, 4064 may not always be the BEST choice for velocity, but it is never a bad choice for accuracy, in about anything I have ever shot it in....

If I had to settle on only a couple of powders to rely on for EVERYTHING, 4064 would definitely be on the short list.. I feel I am getting low when I am down to my last 8 lb container...

same with IMR 4895...

Well, I'll probably stir everything up with this response.

I'm working with Power Pro 2000 MR underneath 75 Hornady hpbt's. The first time I tried it, groups looked like #4 buckshot. After I opened up the barrel channel and gave the barrel a bit of wiggle room, things got better.

After shooting a ladder at 300 yds, I found two very distinct nodes. One was between 25.2 and 25.6 grains and the other was between 26.0 and 26.4 grains. Vertical was less than 1/2" on both nodes. Velocities for the first node were 2777 to 2792 fps and the second node 2857 to 2885 fps. Primers were beginning to flatten on the second node but not excessively. No other signs of pressure.

Rifle is a Tikka T3 w/8" twist.

8208 is another one that shows promise. Lower node at 300 averaged 2597 and the upper node averaged 2648 fps. Vertical was 9/16" on the lower node and 3/8" on the upper. Charge weights were 21.0 to 21.4 grains on the lower and 21.6 to 22.2 grains on the upper. Other than the velocity difference between the two powders, both shot well with the edge probably going to the 8208. Once I start with depth adjustments, who knows where it will go.

I'm sure as I shoot the gun more, I may find a powder even better.


Bruce

Yup, this is true.
If only 1 powder, then hands down H-335.

+1


Ive had 'issues' with shooting H335 in a hot gun.

Me too.

I've burned quite a few pounds of H335 in various .223's, but not for at least 12 years. There are better powders around today, that are not only far more temp-resistant but cleaner burning. Oh, and just as accurate.

Same with H335 at my house also... better choices when you have a hot day or hot rifle chamber....does weird things...

I have about 14 lbs or more of H 322... haven't had issues with that powder when it got hot... and also get pretty darn good velocity out of it...although my load data used is out of some older manuals...so I am sure that they are obsolete or considered hot by today's standards... but the brass doesn't seem to mind, nor does the rifles...

I've had trouble with hangfires using H335 in the 223 and 222 magnum UNTIL I used Win SR primers, and ONLY Win SR primers. I'm experimenting with CFE-223 now. I like BL-C{2} in my 223.

John,

H322 is one of the Hodgdon Extremes, so shouldn't be very heat sensitive. It is really good in the .223, and so is Benchmark, another Extreme.

Dang, 335 just don't get no love.

Actually, I use more Benchmark in the 223 than I do 335. But I still have a few pounds of 335 lurking somewhere around here.
I have had "issues" as Ingwe posted, some of it induced by playing around max or so on a hot day.
But despite its bad parts 335 is still the 1 powder that any 223 worth its salt will shoot well. I still play with 335 from time to time just for chits and giggles.

Seafire,
I've been playing around a lot w/ H-380 lately in a variety of calibers gleaned from old manuals.
Some work pretty damn well, others suck. But 380 was around while all other powders were scarce. And did find some decent alternatives. I still use my old manuals all the time.
Keep em by the bench for reference.
Almost forgot, found some old 335 loads for the Swift.

I got 3400 ft/sec and half-inch groups with 50 grain V Max and Benchmark.


P

Thanks JB!

I was over at the range today, and running some 53 V Maxes thru a Model 700 in 223, with a charge of H 322... and it was giving me about a 6mm hole for 3 shots at 100 yds....

This spring there will be some varmints flying apart with a 'bolt out of the clear blue' in the guise of a 53 V Max...fueled by 25 grains of H 322...

Both of those powders load great in the 223.
H322 has won a lot of bench rest matches ; very stable, consistant powder.

The best use for H335 is burning ice off the sidewalk.

I still keep a pound of H335 around, so I can include it in handloading articles, but basically abandoned it for H322, Benchmark, and TAC years ago, at least for lighter-bullet loads. Have found Varget and, sometimes, RL-15 sometimes better with heavier bullets.

Have used 26 grains of TAC and a good 50-grain bullet as my "test load" for .223's for years, as that combo has shot well in at least 8 rifles I can remember--and also discovered along the way that Nosler was using it as their load to accuracy-test batches of 50-grain Ballistic Tips as they came off the line.

When did they change H-322 to an Extreme powder?

In most of my rifles I have done load development and stick with one powder for the life of the barrel, for some reason I am always tinkering with a 223 load in several of my rifles.
I gave up on powders like H335 and BL-C(2) years ago, either too dirty or temp sensitive. the last quite a few years I have been using Benchmark ,RL10x some leftover VVN133 and Varget for the heavies. but..........about a year ago I started using IMR8208XBR and love the stuff. It has great accuracy,velocity and is the cleanest burning powder I have ever used!!!

I made the request, and they sent me an email and said, "Okay".... the rest is history...

Swifty,

I don't know when H322 became an Extreme, but it's been a little while now. The Extremes are all made by Australian Defense Industries, and my supply of H322 says "made in Australia" and is at least a couple years old.

As boatanchor notes, IMR XBR8208 is also a powder well worth trying in the .223, and is also made by ADI. Even though it's not listed as a Hodgdon Extreme (instead it's sold under the IMR label) I am sure it's made with the same technology.

Just bought a pound of XBR8208 for my 223 where does it sit in a burn rate chart.....is it better suited for heavies?

On Hodgdon's chart it's right next to TAC and H4895, a little slower than H335 and H322. In other words, right in there with a pile of other powders that work well in the .223.

Thanks...looking forward to working up some loads!

Was just wondering why they would take and make 322 an extreme version , then leave 335 alone. Instead they come out with Benchmark as an extreme 335 which it does mimic very well. 322 & 335 were both widely used in the deuce and 223 back in the 70's and early 80's. Could it be that 335 is still the powder of choice for the military in the AR, and they would not except the change?

JB:

Isn't XBR 8208 supposed to be a competitor for Alliant's AR Comp?

I used a bunch of AR Comp when it was available... and if & When it is available again, I plan on it replacing my use of RL 15... it is supposed to be the stable version of RL 15... or as some gun writer did that article calling it the Swedish version of Varget...

8208 is remake, although not an exact remake, of the old original 8208 which was a popular bench rest powder years ago that had a bit of a cult following back in the day.
The new version seems to be spreading it's wings into a lot of other areas & cartridges as well.
It's a great powder. I've used myself it with excellent results in 223, 22-250, 6.8 SPC and 308 win.
-Ted

Swifty,

Like a lot of Hodgdon powders, H335 originated as a mil-surp powder. Essentially it and BL-C(2) were different lots of the same powder. When Hodgdon ran out of the original mil-surp stuff in the early 1990's they started having a new version produced.

It's also a ball powder, and from what I've seen ADI only makes extruded powders. or at least all the Extremes are extruded powders. There aren't very many temp-resistant ball powders--the best I've seen are Ramshot TAC and Big Game. If you want a temp-resistant ball powder of about the same burn rate as H335, I'd look for some TAC. It's why I quit using H335 a dozen years ago.

Found my answer on a military rifle site. It confirms my thoughts on why 335 was not tampered with. Taken from an article copyrighted 2002.

"I don't know what powder commercial .223 rounds are loaded with but service ammo is still charged with WC-846 or IMR-8208. Neither is available as a canister powder but WC-846 can be purchased as H-335 and Ball C(2).

H-335 is surplus WC-846, salvaged from rejected lots of G.I. ammo as a rule. Reportedly, the powder is produced by several different manufacturers; also, different storage conditions causes performance to vary slightly from one batch to the next. That, as I was reminded later, is an important consideration when loading max or near-max charges in smallish cases.

Ball C(2) is WC-846 newly manufactured by Olin. Since it all comes from one source, its performance seems a bit more uniform than H-335. I've heard that some kind of flame retardant has been added to BL-C(2) but there seems to be a considerable amount of disagreement about that. Some of its ingredients must be different from H-335's though because all that I used burned much cleaner than the latter. It left much less fouling in bore and action than the Hodgdon version."

From IMR's website:

'IMR 8208 XBR The latest in the versatile IMR line of fine propellants, this accurate metering, super short grained extruded rifle powder was designed expressly for match, varmint, and AR sniper cartridges. Ideally suited for cartridges like the 223 Remington/5.56mm, 308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO and the 6mm PPC, shooters will find IMR 8208 XBR totally insensitive to changes in temperature, while yielding max velocities and �tack driving� accuracy. Clearly, the competitor�s �choice� and the Varmint Hunter�s �dream powder�.'

Wish I could find some locally.

A bench rest shooter by the name of Lou Murdica worked out a deal with IMR to duplicate the old 8208 that some bench rest shooters still love but is getting very scarce, somewhere during development IMR struck a deal with the military to buy it. It is slightly slower in burn rate than the original but is a modern powder that is much cleaner burning and temp stable (IMR's only Extreme powder). IMR kinda screwed Lou and the bench rest community but will make MUCH MUCH more money selling to the military.
To your question Seafire it is a bit faster than RL15, Varget is much closer in burn rate.

btw, after Lou Murdica was dissed by IMR he went to Accurate Powder (Western Powders) to see if they would make the old T322 powder for benchrester's they agree'd and after about 2 years of development Accurate recently came out with the new LT-32 powder (The "L" was for all of Lou's help). this powder should also be great for the 223, just bought a jug but have not tried it yet.

This is what they say but in reality they threw the 6mmPPC crowd under the bus in favor of the 5.56 /7.62 NATO contract's but makes for some good propaganda

From all that I've heard, new 8208 is faster than AR Comp or Re15.

I haven't used either of the new powders.

Just my guess, but I believe AR Comp will eventually receive more kudos in 223 than 8208. AR Comp is likewise advertised as temp stable and I've heard too many reports of 8208 not giving reliable function in AR-15s.

Have been liking RL15 for 77/75 grainers as of late. TAC is never a bad choice.

One thing I see is that too many folks tend to lump all .223 powders and load data into one pile.

Data needs to be split up into the bolt/single shot and gas gun categories.

What shoots good in your gas gun may shoot good in my bolt gun. However, what shoots good in my bolt probably won't in a gas.
Gas gun have to be concerned with port pressures. Too high, and the rims get ripped off, actions get beat up, etc. Bolts don't.

8208 is a good example. It works great in bolt guns, but it works different also. 8208 likes to work at the upper end of the pressure range. Not at the high end, just the upper side. If you listen to the muzzle blast from a load of 8208, you can almost tell you are in a good node by the sound. A significant number of shooters have reported this phenomenon. I have experienced it at ~42.5 grains shooting 168's and ~44.5 grains shooting 155's out of a .308 and typically the accuracy node will be close to it.
Out of a .223, I can't say at this time. It is a great powder for a lot of applications.

Pressure curves is what gas gunners need to look at. Your gas port is a certain diameter and will flow a certain amount of gas. Two powders with "identical" burn rates may have peak pressures at the same time but have a different pressure curve(higher pressure longer, shorter, etc).

My two cents worth. Too cold to too go out and play.

I agree with most of what you are saying, 8208XBR absolutely likes the upper end of the pressure range and I admit as of now I have only used it in my bolt guns. But it must have some good applications for gas guns since the military has bought tons of it.

btw: While doing my first load development with this powder I backed off quite a ways and worked up. this powder does not like reduced loading at all but once you get close to the upper end it has a fairly broad range where it works awesome.
Will try it in my gas guns in a couple months when the weather breaks

The local BR guys around here panned 8208, as of now the only ones that use it are the service rifle guys. They really like the stuff. There must be something to it as you stated in gas guns.

Just about to start reloading;what do ya'll suggest for a 1:12 twist .223? Shooting a Remington 700 VSSF.
Thanks

I'd be looking at the 55-60 gr Vmax or possible the same weight in a nosler,sierra or berger ....with Benchmark!

Very intresting article here. I got lucky last year and found a place that had WC846 in stock so I bought a good bit of it and have noticed that I dont have the carbon build up that I use to get with the comercial BLC-2. I didnt know if it was a bit faster or if there was a difference in the Military version of the powder. My rifle and all others I load for love this powder with 26grs and a 55gr bullet