I loaded up a few rounds (26) of .223 and headed to the range. I used the OAL and the brass was trimmed etc. When I was at the range and closed the bolt on the loaded round, the bolt closed extremely tight. It was harder than normal and this was from several samples of the load rounds. Could this be because the case was not sized right? The shoulders may have been pushed out too far?

BTW this morning I went ahead and loaded my 270Win but I did not have the case to use the OAL so I used the black marker on a fired case that was used in this rifle. The loaded round brass was trimmed etc. And it shot fine but apparently was not on paper at 100 yards and this rifle was bore sighted. Not sure what the problem is with this loaded round in NBT 130gr. but I will look into this too. However I brought this up in this post because I used the black marker to find my OAL and this worked fine.

Maybe how I used the OAL gauge may be the issue with the 223Rem loaded round because the bolt was hard to close? Would the black market method be more accurate? And do I need a fired brass from that rifle to use the black market method? Not sure I have a fired round from the 223Re rifle.

I am trying to figure what is causing the bolt to close hard on the 223Rem rifle? Do you think its the brass sizing? BTW I got this brass from someone here in classifieds but the brass was resized. Any ideas? I could try to find a fired brass (does it need to be from this rifle) and use the black market method and see if this is different from the OAL I got but I do not think this is the problem. More likely it is the brass sizing problem?

So someone else sized it??

That's where I would start.

Size a few piece in a quality die and compare how it chamber vs. the "sized" brass you purchased, and report back to us;.

Nope. I got the fired 200 piece of brass and it has the primer in so it was not sized if fired one time. This is all Winchester brass. I deprimed and sized this brass. I went and checked the loaded round and its trimmed to correct length 1.750". I made up a dummy round when I first starting reloading last week and the OAL was about .005 less than my loads that I brought to the range. I put this dummy in the rifle and closed the bolt and it was slightly hard to close but not as hard as the loaded rounds I made up (this dummy round did not have a primer in it as I used this to test the seater etc.)

So from all indications maybe I should have went ahead and fired my rounds at the range? But I decided not to as it was hard to close the bolt and I have never had a bolt close this hard. Still trying to figure out what the heck is wrong.

Whats your definition of quality dies? I have the RCBS dies and would have thought they would be ok. All of my dies are RCBS.

Go ahead and resize them again.

Knocking the primers out and reusing them should pose no problem.

They are still a little long for your rifle.

valad:

From what you describe, your full length re-sizing die may have been improperly adjusted and was not sizing the case enough to allow it to fully re-enter the chamber i.e. when sizing, the case did not go into the die enough to resize the base of the case.

One of the other posters is suggesting you pull the loaded bullets, adjust your die down in the press more, and re-size the cases; check after re-sizing by loading each re-sized case and that each allows a closed bolt with minimal pressure to do so.

When re-sizing after pulling the bullets, take out the de-priming pin from the FL sizing die and you won't have to knock out the unfired primer.

valad:

Also, what measurement was the cartridges' Over All Length (OAL)?

What is the "black marker" method you refer to for OAL?

One measures a loaded cartridge's OAL [length from case head to bullet point]with a dial caliper. Perhaps you are marking the bullet to see where it engraves the rifling; if so, fine, but that is not really the cartridge's OAL....sometimes also written as COAL.

Vlad, I do not consider RCBS dies as the end all, be all dies that some do. I've had some issues with their sizing dies in the past and now prefer Redding dies, especially for .223. I'm not suggesting anyone needs the $250 competition dies, but I find their $40.00 basic dies provide a good return on investment.

Regardless, you can probably fix your problem with your existing dies by screwing them in another 1/2 turn and resizing your brass. If that doesn't fix it, you have an issue with the OAL, and may need to screw in your seating die a 1/4-1/2 turn.

Isolate and adjust one variable at a time, and see which one fixed it.

Buckeye,

I feel my resizing die did not size the case enough, and maybe it did not size to the base of the case. Not sure how this happened as I followed the instruction to the letter. So how is the resizing die supposed to be adjust further then? By screwing the die in more?

Did not think of taking out the de-priming pin so I do not have to punch out the primer and then having to prime again. thanks for the idea.

As for the black marker OAL (and I know I am getting OAL and COAL mixed up), I put a bullet I am going to use in a fired case, pushing just slightly so the case holds the bullet. Then mark the bullet all black and insert this case in the chamber and close the bolt. Then open the bolt and usually the bullet does not come out with the case. Remove the bullet and put this same bullet back in the case up to where the mark indicates where the bullet stopped being pushed in. This is the length of the cartridge where the lands meet. I read this in the Speer book and I have seen others stated they do this too. It seem much easier for me because when I used the Stoney OAL I have to take repetitive measurements and most of them are never the same and are very slightly different by .002 or so if I am stating it correctly.

When you say "adjust your die down in the press more" how do you know if you have gone too far then?

anteploe,
I know what you mean. on these forums and all other forums, there will always be favorites that everyone touts. Since I have these dies I ain't going to toss them, instead trying to see where the problem is and work with it. These dies "should" work though.

I see you saying screwing my dies in another 1/2 turn to see if that works. I was wondering how much to screw the dies in.

Yes.

But be careful. Screw an RCBS die in too much and you will crush the top of the case. That's why I've traded most of mine for Redding dies. That, and the tighter tolerances on the Redding products.

Buckeye,

My OAL is 2.330 -/+ .002. I know Speer #14 book lists theirs as 2.260 but I know its all a little different among bullet companies since this is measured from the tip.

When I put the dummy round in the rifle it did not seem to push the bullet back any.

I felt I was having an issue with the case resizing. Guess I got it slightly wrong.

I have the Frankford impact bullet puller and will have to read up on how to use it. At least I am learning something new anyways.

Vlad, I said half a turn, but I usually go in an 1/8th of a turn at a time until I achieve the results I'm looking for. Especially with RCBS dies, you want to be able to size as much of the base of the case as possible without crushing the top.

Just keep screwing it in a bit at a time until you achieve the desired result.

So does Nosler on the BT 2.260, and have found that 50BTs in the 223 like to be seated deeper as they like a little jump. Try 2.250 for depth and see what happens.
Listen to the advice on the dies, its good.

Swifty,

Thanks for the information. I went off the lands at .020. What would you consider "seated deeper"? Since I already have these RCBS dies I will use them. But how would the other dies be better?

I whacked the inertia bullet puller last night and woke everyone up lol. My daughter said it sounds like someone trying to break in the house. So I did it again and WOW is all I can say...did not remove the bullet from the case. Guess I am going to have to try harder.

Inertia pullers are, no offense, Junk. Buy a collet puller that screws into your press.
Now what I have read into this is that you used a comparator to find the lands. These as I have found can give very misleading results. While getting you close, getting the feel for when you kiss the lands or actually have it jammed is critical.
I found that if the bullet will not fall out of the rifle when tipped up without smacking the action, you are to far into the lands. It should actually come out with the case or just by tipping the rifle up.
The OAL given in the manuals is actually a good starting point for seating as it should work in 90% of the factory rifles out there. Also a good recommendation since it seems you are new to this. You being 70 thou over suggests that you may be running a jam. This along with improperly sized brass will definitely cause your problem.

Adjust the dies as Antelope Sniper has suggested, resize a couple, run your seating depth back to 2.260 and see what happens when you chamber the dummy. It just might surprise you.

valad:

Let's qualify the terms - the The Stoney Point tool is not measuring the cartridge OAL; it is measuring the Distance to the lands (from the case head to the .224 measurement of the ogive of the bullet)....I call this the Distance To The Lands (DTTL) in my reloading lingo, and others can too.


[quote=valad]
It seem much easier for me because when I used the Stoney OAL I have to take repetitive measurements and most of them are never the same and are very slightly different by .002 or so if I am stating it correctly.

The bullet puller takes some whacks to get that bullet out; if you have a 1 inch thick piece of native oak to use an an anvil it helps....

When you say "adjust your die down in the press more" how do you know if you have gone too far then?

valad:

Adjust your die down in increments, sizing a case as you go with each successive 1/8 turn of the die and insert the case into the chamber of the rifle (as I stated) and close the bolt. Still too tight when you close the bolt....adjust the die down a bit more , resize, and try in the chamber and close the bolt.

When you have it right, the bolt will close with only a slight resistance on the empty, re-sized case and that means you have now re-sized the neck/shoulder junction correctly without setting the shoulder back at all, or just the right amount, which is good.

(Setting the shoulder back too far can create an excessive head space issue which cam be measured by purchasing an RCBS Precision micrometer to avoid such a re-sizing error...more on that later).

RCBS dies are OK, I have no trouble with mine as purchased and used since 1983.

I seem to be getting confused with OAL. This is the measure from the tip of the bullet to the head...the overall length. This is virtually useless when you are reloading because the OAL will always be different. What reloaders are interested in is the contact point at the ogive regardless of the OAL...but the finished ammo needs to fit in the magazine unless loading single shot.

The Stoney and Comparator measures to the ogive.

I am in the process of removing the bullets and as someone and you stated adjust die down in increments until the case just fits in the chamber with minimal pressure.

BTW...its a chore to remove the bullets. I must have done more than 10 whacks before the bullet came out. I incorrectly assume the die was set up for sizing case but in reality I should have size one case and see if it fits in the chamber and get it right and then size all cases knowing it will work. At least I only got 28 cases to remove the bullet but I also have to resize probably 100 cases again. Live and learn...

BTW thanks to you and all of the other guys as I am learning a bit.

YES, now you have it!

Swifty,

Well I got the inertia since I had placed some orders from Midway and bring they rape ya on shipping I got some stuff that I *may need later on. What company sells the collet puller, I will get that the next time I order something.

Yes I had to whack the rifle to get the bullet to fall out. I was under the impression that the closer to the lands w/o touching gives better accuracy but I also know that each rifle is different and this is experimenting.

Since you mention the OAL in manuals is actually a good starting point in loading, is this what everyone does when they first load a cartridge to see how it shoots. And the OAL you are referring to is measuring the cartridge from tip to head with a caliper right? My thought was the length from the ogive to the tip is going to vary somewhat and that is why you measure from the ogive to the head.

From what you said I will load the NBT 50gr. 224 to 2.260 OAL and see how it loads in my rifle and the shoot it.

I should have mentioned this rifle an M700 ADL) had another barrel installed from another ADL rifle since someone bought a ADL and shooting factory fodder did not give them acceptable results so this person ordered a new barrel to be installed in their rifle. This meant the LGS had an extra barrel. My uncle brought his ADL (mine now) to the GS and said his nephew cleaned the barrel out with a wrong size brass (larger sized) and thus had this stuck in the barrel. So the GS replaced the ADL barrel with another ADL barrel. This barrel should be the same dimension as the original barrel.

So thanks for your tip. I will start loading now using the stated OAL from the book or manufacture and adjust from there. I think I incorrectly assumed we should measure to ogive and then back off some xx number but it is best to go with the OAL suggest in book and see how it shoots.

This has been a long running post but informative. Now back to whacking...

Sounds like you are getting the right idea. I also agree with swifty about the collet bullet puller, they work great. The inertia one is junk. I also agree with buckeyespecial on the RCBS dies:


Here is a video you need to watch on adjusting your sizing die. He's using Lee dies, but it's the same process with the RCBS dies. Just make sure you tighten the lock ring when you are done. When you decide you want to get more anal and just bump your shoulder back .003", buy a RCBS precision mic (or similar tool). If your chamber is good (within SAMI specs), you can just full length size your brass, as detailed in this video:




This isn't my video, but it should help.


Here's another video on seating the bullet:

Valad: Back in 1960 when I was teaching MYSELF how to reload centerfire ammunition ONE of the first lessons I learned was NOT to load up a "batch of ammo" and head for the range!
The careful and prudent handloader should load ONE complete "test" cartridge and go to a safe place and make sure it fits and functions through ones Rifles action!
THEN, after being successful with that or after rectifying any "problems", THEN load a batch of ammo and go test them at the range.
Your, "inconveniencing" yourself, as you did at the range is nothing compared to a fellow I took to SE Montana Hunting many years ago - he had the same problem you did and we were 1,070 miles from homes and our loading presses!
I hope you consider my suggestion - I know it will save you time, trouble and trepidation in the future.
I have Big Game Hunting friends who have been "stung" in a similar fashion as you did to yourself, and they take the time (at home!) to run EVERY handloaded cartridge through their Rifles action.
Better luck in the future to you.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I agree with varmintguy and make up dummy rounds to test function through my rifles, before I even dump powder into a case. First and foremost, it HAS to function thru your rifle.

I DID make up dummy round but did not test in my rifle. I hesitate putting a live round in my rifle but in hindsight I should have put the darn dummy round in my rifle to test. This would save ALOT of time. You live to learn huh?

Now on to the sizing of the case. A previous poster said to turn the doe in 1/8 and test the case in the rifle and keep doing it until the bolt closes relatively easy. I know when you close a bolt on a round, it closes pretty easy. But I have then the die turn-in increments so much that I have rotated the die a total of 4 or maybe a bit less. There is no threads showing above the lock nut on the die. Is this normal? But the bolt closes "easier" than at the range for sure. So I think I am making some headway but who knows the die is turned way down in the press so I am unsure if this is natural.

And why does the RCBS instructions say to set up the die and when the shell holder is all the way up and the die touches the shell holder, move the shell holder down and turn the die down another 1/8 to 1/4 turn and you are set. When it should actually say "you may have to turn it in more to test function in your rifle". This is why I never thought that I have to test this.

So anyone know if a RCBS die is ok having been screwed almost all the way down such that there is no threads showing above the lock nut on the die? I have a bit more to do but the bolt does close a bit easier but still not like when I throw in factory fodder and close the bolt.

You are still not doing something right or your die is phcucked up. If that is the case, you just call or email RCBS and let them know and they will ask you to send yours in and they will replace it. Pretty easy. By following the die instructions, you will be full length sizing (like in the video I posted: WATCH IT!!!). When you adjust the die properly you will get a slight "cam over" with the press handle on your down stroke. By the sounds of it, you are really screwed up on your adjustment. I don't see how you can even bring the press handle down all the way with your adjustment.

I'd like to add that I'd be suspect of the new/used/take off barrel that's on your rifle now. Have you had the headspace checked? Chamber cast or anything of that nature to make sure your chamber isn't out of SAMI spec??? It may not even be a die problem.

BSA,

First of all, I do not see a video link on your post. Can you see this link? I do not see anything besides you saying video.

You seriously think my dies are [bleep] up? I have a few new 223Rem brass and decided to take this brass and test in my rifle and the colt closing feels the same as the brass I end up with all of the adjustments. When you get new brass do you run it through the sizer die? if not then the bolt closes tight on this new brass. I have seen some say you should size new brass.

I will place an email to RBCS and let them know of my situation.

Meanwhile I will move on to working on this 270Win and see if I can get this to work for me.

Thanks for your help!

BSA,

That thought came to my mind too that this may be a chamber problem. But the gunsmith stated he did check the headspace. Not sure how I can check out the headspace unless I send it out.

So when you get new brass...they should function without resizing the brass right? I have a rifle for my son and its a 223Rem I can check with this new brass. This is a known shooter but its been a long while since I shot it. I will look into this tomorrow and get back with whether the new brass will fit in this chamber.

New brass should fit in a rifles chamber (a SAMI spec chamber) since it is full length sized and supposedly within spec. If the new brass doesn't fit in your rifle chamber, I'd be suspect of the re-barrel job...Keep us posted..

Yes, the videos are right there in one of my previous posts. You should really check them out and let us know if you are doing it as the video suggests. It may help you quite a bit..

Here's my previous post with the videos on it, let me know if you don't see them:

BSA,

I can now see the video. Its not in the first post you indicated the video.

And looking at the LVSF 223Rem I have...I just pulled out of the safe and the new brass works easier loading than the ADL rifle I been working with. For some reason this is bothering me...I have shot factory fodder in this ADL rifle and it worked. Both were Winchester and Hornady loads. Maybe I am getting rifles mixed up.

Regardless...I do not know how to do a chamber cast and probably a gunsmith has the tools to do this as well as check headspace. So this rifle is gonna get a new barrel.

I have a LH .223 action that I been itching to get it barreled. Since I am a lefty I am going to make this a first priority so I am going to have to look for a barrel/stock etc. Maybe send this to Mickey but I got to get the parts together first. Now I am thinking...worth going for the .223 AI?

I have that LVSF for my son so this 223Rem ADL is not needed to fix now since I need to locate a barrel.

With all of this said...I am going to pull out my VS 22-250 and clean up brass and start loading this and keep in mind to keep this KISS...load to suggest OAL and go shoot it!

I am thinking this "why is everyone chasing max measurement to the lands and bumping off .020" when they can just load to OLA." Either they are chasing more accuracy or their rifle does not shoot good at OAL as suggest in books. I must have read all of this wrong. But from now on I will load new rounds to OAL and see how the rifle shoots.

You need to know where your lands are, that way you have a starting point with your handloads. Some guys like to KISS the lands and others like to back the bullet off by about .020". That way, you know the ammo will reliably chamber in your rifle. Furthermore, You don't want the bullet to be jammed into the lands or you will have trouble chambering the round. Make sure you are setting your dies up properly and know where your lands are and half the battle will be won.

I wanted to touch on one thing that someone brought up. When setting up sizer dies, you screw in the die to where it touches the shell holder (that is raised up of course) and then turn down say 1/4 more. And if the brass does not fit in the chamber of the rifle then you turn down say 1/8 and size again. Do this until the brass fits in the rifle.

What happens if you do the same thing such as setting the doe up as I stated with 1/4 turn and the brass fits in the rifle chamber. Should be back out the sizer die to maybe 1/8 to get a better fit? Or just assume 1/4 is going to give a good fit?

I am asking this because the RCBS instructions say to bring the sizer die down to the shell holder and then turn in 1 complete turn. But someone in this post said 1/4 is usually a good starting point.

Are we trying to get a near perfect brass to chamber fit but of course it needs to be slightly smaller than the chamber. Reason why I am bringing this up is because when I full size a brass I want to make sure I am sizing the brass from the head of the case. Is 1/4 die turn down enough to full size the brass?

If you are sizing your brass for just one rifle, why size it any more than you have too, or over work the brass? Some just necksize and occasionally full length size when they need to bump the shoulder back a couple thousands.

I would screw out the die one full turn, size one piece of brass and try to chamber it. If tight, then screw in slightly more, say 1/4 turn and size again, try to chamber, repeat until the brass chambers without a lot of resistance. Run with that setting.

I haven't read every post in detail, so I apologize if this is off base.

You're problem with loaded rounds not chambering actually sounds like a buller seater die mis adjustment to me. I've done this and found out the hard way.

If you don't unscrew the die one turn after setting it to kiss the shell holder, you are likely to crush the neck down a bit when you seat a bullet. When you push the neck down, it bulges the shoulders out slightly to where they won't chamber. It can be easy to miss, measure it with your calipers and you'll see it.

You can usually take the decapping pin and screw out of the sizing die and run them slowly back into the die to get the shoulder pressed back in, that should get them to chamber.

The other possibility is that you didn't lube the case neck and when you pull the expander button back thru the neck it pulled the shoulder back up.

Sorry for rambling, hope you get it figured out...

Ant. Crush the top of the case? That's a new one. Val.-Screw the die in exactly as the die mfg. instructions state for full length sizing. As the case is in as far as it will go the brass will not "crush" only be as small as the die will allow as long as the case length is under max length. (1.760")-Muddy

Exactly!! I even posted a video so he could watch it, but he's just not getting it

He likes to bad mouth RCBS dies. I've never crushed a case while FL sizing with an RCBS die either. It doesn't make sense. The fn thing will only size so much, impossible to crush the brass with the FL die. Sorry Antelope sniper, I don't buy it either.

Val, I'm now of the opinion that Pittu is possibly correct. You have the seating die screwed too far in and its trying to crimp the case neck into the bullet w/nowhere for the case mouth to go. This tries to push the case back but what happens is that the point of the shoulder expands and the case will not enter the rifle chamber enough. loosen the lock ring on the die and screw the die towards the top 1-2 turns,leave loose, unscrew the seating stem several full turns, leave loose. place a factory round in the shell holder, raise the ram to the top and let sit, screw the seating die into the top of the press till it makes contact w/the round. Unscrew the die 1 full turn, set lock ring lightly. Screw the seating stem down till it makes contact w/the bullet. Set its lock ring buy finger pressure only. Seat a bullet in a DUMMY case (1 sized but w/out primer or powder), check for functioning in YOUR rifle. Then you have a base dummy round to put in your die box to always go back to. Now you may commence to make a true dummy round for you rifle w/whatever you want, but don't screw the die into the press much more, do all of your (unless you want to crimp) adjustments w/the seating stem. Good luck-Muddy