As you may remember I was so enamored with the performance of reduced loads in the .22 center fires that I decided to' build' a rifle dedicated to the reduced loads.This is a "Campfire Rifle" for the most part. I had the action, bought a new take off barrel here on the 'fire, as well as a Mountain Rifle stock I bought here, plus a Cabelas Outfitter 3x9 scope I bought from our own Mule deer some time ago.
Screwed them all together, chambered in .223 ( cause thats what I have the most brass for...) and got it to the range for load testing today.
Full load of Trail Boss behind a 50 Vmax was only so/so
8 grains of Trail Boss behind the Vmax was pretty damn good...then...


I tried A load Seafire gave me, 12.5 grains of IMR 4198 and the 50 Vmax....

This is six shots during the sight-in...I walked them in with scope adjustments from left to right.....50 yard target...




This is the rifle...




And the only real modification was shortening the barrel to 22" cut and re-crown...






The rimfires will see even more safe time.....

Fun stuff! If it's specific to reduced loads why not 20" or less?

Sweeeeet looking Rifle there Ingwe....

dontcha love when a plan comes together....

but serious question.. isn't that seafire guy the one that gives out that load data that has a history of blowing up people's rifles????

at least that is what I heard... and you know, everything you hear on the internet HAS TO BE TRUE...

by the way, I am a French Model... Bon JEWer.....

Ive been known to "backslide" on occasion......

I figured it was true...its why I used a Remington. They are known to have their bolts fall off,known to go off all by themselves, and their extractors go A.W.O.L.


I didn't think it would be much of a loss if the loads blew it up....

Nice work I must try these sometime soon..

Well with 12.5 grains of 4198... at least that Remington should be able to handle the recoil and the chamber pressure.... three rings of steel and a recoil pad....

now if that Cabelas scope hopefully holds up...

That is a pretty stout recoiling load....at least in my experience....

They'll never work. You know you need powders which are temperature insensitive.

Some H335 should test that Remmys three rings of steel!


I'll wait for a 100 degree day........

No need to wait, just test it with some Blue Dot.

Well if ya do, and use Ingwe's 50 grain VMax bullets

8 grains will get you about 2050 fps...

9 grains will get ya about 2250 fps...

and 10 grain will get ya about 2450 fps...

Still impossible to find Blue Dot here, and I tried some years ago. No problems and pretty good in the accuracy department but it doesn't outshoot this load of IMR4198!

Either does the Trail Boss, though its close. Ive got almost two bottles of it I don't know what to do with now

Just loaded some 75 Amax with 7 grains Trail Boss in formed Ackley cases to play with. Those 75's hammer stuff so I figure it'd be fun to play with. Got a couple pounds of Blue Dot sitting around. Need to figure out some starting loads for the 75's if they are as much fun as I'm thinking they will be.

7 grains of TB sounds just about right for the 75s...Regular 50 and 55s in my gun liked 8 grains.

Odd thing in both 223 and 223AI max seemed to be 8.4 grains...both rifles shot better with 8.0 grains.

Here's 7 grains of Trail Boss under 75 amax with 9 moa dialed in at 100 yards out of my .223AI Montana with 1-8" Pac Nor.



And 50 Zmax with 7.7 gr TB and no elevation.



Formed brass for both btw

Welllllll.......I think you've found a couple bunny loads!!

No Blue Dotz? Really?

Yep -- I am getting down to my last pound of five and starting to think maybe Lil Gun will work nicely in the 223 when I run out for sure.

I have NOT seen any Blue Dot since OCrisis One.

I have been running the blue dot loads for years. Got started with the Calhoon bullets and have used the 37gr for quite a while, they seem to be the softest bullet to use at reduced speeds.

and you boys rag on Oregon....

last couple of months I bought 5 or 6 lbs of it, off the shelf...

and actually they had 40 pounds of it or more, and then got another shipment with about 80 lbs....

I didn't want to be a hog....ya know...

but If I'd have known you boys were looking for some I'd have picked up some more......


also if I can find them, I did a batch of work ups and targets using 75 grain BTHPs, and a host of powders, working toward subsonic for deFlave/Travis last year....

ran across those targets and the load data on them a few weeks ago... if any interest, I'll dig them up....

Did Trail Boss, Unique and some others in those burn ranges...

the groups out of the Ruger American were tighter than Higbean's above...

The reason they have powder supplies in Oregon is because you are the only shooter in the friggin' state......

Well, I didn't have all day and I didn't do MY part....

Geez, Id take groups like yours with my normal hunting loads....

One of these days I'm gonna shoot some real groups.

[quote=ingwe]The reason they have powder supplies in Oregon is because you are the only shooter in the friggin' state...... [/quote}]....

......who uses Blue Dot....




Happy Thanksgiving to you and the family there Tom!

While not abundant, Blue Dot has been showing up pretty regularly lately. A month or so ago more than one website even had 8-pounders for sale, though of course they're gone now. I didn't bother as a local Montana store got in a bunch and I stocked up, partly because I also use it quite a bit in my 10-gauge shotgun, which uses a lot more powder per round than the .223.

JB,

Got any .223 loads you really like?

The same loads James Calhoon has had on his website (www.jamescalhoon.com) for years now, which originally appeared in an article for Varmint Hunter Magazine in 1999. He contacted Alliant for suggestions, then published the results. Click on “Informative Articles,” then on “To Bee, or .223 Revisited.”

Same to you John!

Same to everyone. Dine well, be convival.

Can I substitute a 50 grain Ballistic Tip for the 50 grain V Max?




P

Affirmative.

Poobs, I chronied those Trail Boss loads today just for the heck of it.

7.7gr TB under 50 Z's was 1,800

7gr TB under 75 Amax was 1,450

Umm, that was not intended as a slam and a " I can shoot tighter groups than you" kind of thing...

it was just more to emphasize that there were some good results yielded.....

nothing more or less was intended, so my apologies if you took it other wise....

Thanks for that info...my guess, as I have no chrono, was that the 50 grain loads were going 1900, so I wasn't far off.

Now Im shooting the 50s in front of Seafires 12.5 grains of IMR 4198 and I get the impression that they are a tad faster....


Again no chrono, so Im wallowing in ignorant bliss.

I know you didn't mean anything by it and was just being my usual smart ass.

OK...I think Ive just taken this concept to the next level with my new rifle.
I ordered a burris scope with turrets so I could zero with reduced loads, and also sight in with normal loads-just make a note of the settings- and use the gun for everything.

If this works, I'll have to get rid of all my other guns, this dynamic idea will render them all useless!

Burris??????? Next thing you know you will have a buttout tool and a bubba buddy.

Tom,

I use a variation on the same concept with my .22 Hornet, which has a 3-9x FFII. When sighted-in 1" high at 100 with its full-power 40-grain load, I found the reduced load with a 43.5 grain cast bullet and Accurate 5744 lands right at the top of the bottom post at 50 yards with the scope set on 6x. The load gets around 1100 fps, and puts 5 inside an inch at 50.

ouch....

I thought of that, but have shot the rifle enough already to realize theres a windage change in the POI as well, so Ive gotta do the turrets. Your idea works on my model 7 in .223AI with the Burris BP though....

That windage stuff is such a PITA....

Yeah, my fave .223AI is a rifle I only shoot two loads through...one thats 'fur friendly' and my hunting load with a TTSX. Only an inch difference between the two....but the inch includes elevation AND windage.



And my .22-250 only gets two loads, one practice and one TTSX load for hunting. There is a full 18 inches difference in POI and it is both windage and elevation!

Wow!

I have a .358 Winchester like that. My usual load uses the 225 Nosler Partition, but in my big game rifles I like to have a similar load with a cheaper bullet for practice, sight-in, and shooting dinks as participation trophies. Tried the 220 Speer flat-nose with the same powder charge and the difference in POI at 100 was also just about 18". Since then bought some 225 Sierras but haven't tried them yet.

Most of my varmint rifles shoot difference bullets with full-powder loads so close to the same place the scope setting doesn't have to be tweaked. But there are exceptions....

Ive only got three like that, a .222, a .223 with a Hart barrel, and my .204....none seem to much care what you stick in them, they all shoot M.O.G.



( Minute of Goph...)

Kinda curious, have you figured out your cost per round?

Yeah....depends on the bullet I use, but the best shooting so far is with the V-max 50 grainer. 21 cents per round.

My 17 HMR ammo is on sale at $11 per box of 50....22 cents per round.




Think how much money I save if I shoot a million rounds!!!


With Hornady 55 grainers its 16 cents per round...

Well with 560 rounds per pound of powder with the 12.5 grain Load...

say primers at 3.5 cents apiece....you have more in primer than you do the powder....

and then factor in your cost of the bullet you choose...

Hornady Bulk bullets ( from various sources) and Nosler's Shooters Pro Shop are you friends....

definitely rivals the rimfire magnum costs, with better performance....

and you factor in seeing things like a box of 50 CCI 22 LRs were on the shelf and selling at Fred Meyer last night for $8 something a box....

just bought a ton of bullets from Nosler's Shooters Pro Shop... for under 10 cents a bullet.. and that was delivered to the door step...

in Klamath County Oregon, there a ton of little gophers hibernating and new ones that are in gestation right now, that they unknowingly have their name on one of the zillion bullets I have loaded and to loaded for this coming spring...that will start in February or so...

That's what I thought that it could be cheaper than the 17 HMR. Good thing I love reloading as well Got to get a 222 or 223 this year finally and do a bunch of different experimenting. Looks like you guys are having a blast with these reduced loads........

ingwe, I have a .222 I bought as a turkey rifle.. But my turkey hunting has slowed down.. Thought I might try the reduced load system in this rifle.. I bought a pound of Trail Boss 'cuz you seemed to like it so well.. Also have lots of H4198.. You spoke of a .222 using reduced loads.. Do you use either of these two powders in the triple two??

We don't have the same access to cheap bullets as you do but it looks like bulk Hornady 55 gr can be had for around $15 per 100. 17 HMR ammo starts at about $18 per 50 and those prices are much more expensive where I live.

Well hell boys! Yesterday I wuz a lustin' after a new Cz 527, in the deuce. I found a bunch of ammo in the cabinet. What better reason fer a new shooter, right?

Then I see this thread and remember my Blue Dot .223 loads. Sierra 45gr. Hornet soft point on top of 8grain of Blue. Around 1/2" at 50 yds.

8 grains is what got me to a 50 yard zero on the top of the bottom post.

The Hornet bullet cause it worked and opens up well at this velocity.

When I was working up the load several people, at the range were worried that I had some bad loads.

Oh, the rifle for this load is my Rem 799 in a B&C medalist.

You could use either one, but I'd start with the TB to see what you think....then if you try the H4198...I'd think about that 12.5 grain load.....it might be a little zippy in the deuce. The TB should give you that 1800 fps....

I am enjoying the crap out of this stuff. It is more accurate than my rim fires, more consistent ( Ive found inconsistencies with all but the best rimfire ammo like Eley) and it lets me shoot the rifles I like more. Pretty simple. The big plus is the lack of meat damage to edible targets like bunnies....unless of course you really screw up the shot....

Also, unless you are really shooting high volume, you can go without hearing protection, if you chose. 20-25 shots at bunnies in an evening are easy on the ears......or could it be cause I'm pretty near deaf already?

ingwe, how much Trail Boss would you think in a .222 with 50 gr. bullets??

I might try 11 gr. of H 4198 and the 50 g. bullet..

I dunno on the TB....what they recommend is filling a case up to the bottom of the neck and weighing that load. That will be your max load. 70% of that is where they say to start and FWIW my guns like it at about .4 gr ( 4/10ths of a grain) under max.

Thanks!!

Actually it's bottom of the bullet and they don't want compressed loads.

Read up on it here.
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Yeah, loading Trail Boss is pretty easy. Finding some is another question, which is why I burn a lot more IMR4895 and Accurate 5744 in reduced .223 loads.

In fact A5744 is also a pretty good full-power .223 powder with lighter bullets.

Pardon me if I'm not quite with the program here on reduced loads in the 223.
The Blue Dot loads I have for 22BR, Fireball and .223 Rem are pretty sporty. 35 and 40 grainers tooting right along.
Much quieter and cooler, but still disgustingly capable of that afternoon Mobius Mist effect.
And I didn't get my Fireball to shoot 50s. Am I missing something here?

JB whats your reduced load with IMR4895? Ive got a ton of it on hand....?

Dont know what you could have missed, sounds like you did your homework.If the Fireball wont shoot 50s you need to get rid of it.Next time you're in the state capital, just drop it off......

Tom,

I usually load 16.0 grains of IMR4895 with 40's. Velocity usually runs around 1500-1600 fps, depending on barrel length, but you can increase velocity to whatever you want, since with single-based powders velocity will increase at the same rate as the charge. So far accuracy has been great in every rifle I've tried it in.

Thanks JB...I gotta try it!

Ingy,
What I mean was, I didn't get a Fireball so I could shoot 50 grainers. I got it because I liked the results of Blue Dotting the other two so much. The bottom line of that was, I had two rifles where I could enjoy the equivalent of a hot/accurate Hornet -- or maybe exactly a Fireball with the Dot loads.

I'd had a Hornet (77) for a while and my Long Rifle was better than it ever was. And when Mic McPherson wrote that story on Lil Gun in a Fireball, with photos of those sexy targets, the die was set. Another "twofer."

So, when I had a barrel up for retirement that still hummed with 40 grainers and Blue Dot, I just HAD to go buy a Stevens 200 (yes, I shot the donor) and have that tube re-cut for Fireball. Good idea. It shoots super with both LG and BD, but since I have more LG left than BD, I'm leaving the Dot loads for the bigger 22s.

I suppose with the price of rimfire being what it is, and the availability, there will be a point where we'll be chasing centerfire equivalents to LR and WMR and pouring our own lead pills from old batteries.

OK, gotcha!


Meanwhile back at the range....


I shot another version of Seafires load...12.5 grains of IMR 4198 and a 55 gr. Hornady

It shot tight little groups in EXACTLY the same spot as my 50 grain load. Life is good!

Just for giggles here's a 10 shot group out of a Tikka I bought from a friend for my 9yo daughter to shoot gophers with this year. Kissing a 50 Zmax with 13 gr of Blue Dot, LC brass and a 400. I was gonna shoot up 1,000 of the 205m's I have laying around, but it didn't like them as much.


I went home, put the pistol powder bar in the Dillon and cranked out 500 for this spring.

Damn that flier!






Super shooting!




New scope got here today, gonna wring it out on the range tomorrow .......

There's a lot of good information in this thread, entertwined among the humor...

Why only 500? That wouldn't quite get through a good day on the killing fields here.



I'm gonna try JBs load with IMR 4895 and substitute a 55 grainer...see what happens today!


Course, Im shooting a Remmy so the load will probably blow up the gun, after the faulty trigger makes the gun go off all by itself and the bolt falls off....

Poobs, I'll load up a bunch more if you share your spots!

But really, I just ran out of prepped LC brass about the time the newer bottle of Blue Dot was getting low.

A good day here is hit and miss. Living three hours (+) from where we shoot, it's hard to catch em on a good weekend. Between volleyball and the busy time of year with my business we always get pushed back into Summer when the shooting is not as good. Best day I've ever had was 950 rounds out of three guns. Wind was just enough to cool barrels when switching them out.

I have noted that the IMR 4198 loads still heat up a barrel faster than Blue Dot when you are volume shooting...

went out once, with just the ADL in 223...

shot the Blue Dot loads for 650 rounds in one afternoon

averaging about 3 shots every 2 minutes ( I single feed my shots when shooting sage rats)... the barrel never heated up enough for me to have to worry about it, and stopping to cool it off...

with the 4198 loads, I suspect that a sporter weight barrel would need a little cooling off time along the way in that type of service...

but right now, Blue Dot availability is spotty... where as 4198 is readily available... at least here locally for the time being...

For us on gophers a normal day is about 400 rounds....a good day is 600 and an exceptional day is over 800 rounds ( per shooter)


Those days don't come along often...but it happens....



John I think you might be right on the 4198 and barrel heating, but it wont be near as bad as my normal full load! Cant wait to find out!


Heading to the range now to wring out the new scope......its a Burris MSR for the .223...has a turret and ballistic plex...not sure what to think of it all right yet.....

It's a Burris, I'm sure you'll love it.....

OK...here we go with todays report..


I AM A TURRET SPINNING MOFO!


Sighted zero at 50 yards with reduced load, took it out to 100 yards and had to spin my turret four whole clicks up!


Call me one of the cool kids now....


Anyway... shot a few loads to see what was more gooder in this gun...50 yards...everything was pretty ,much the same...





Seafires load.....




And JBs. load with 55 grainers instead...







Things opened up correspondingly at 100 yards. Everything shot barely into an inch with the nod for best consistency going to the 50 grain Vmax.


I spun my turret 4 clicks back to zero and went home!


The Burris MSR scope by the way was fine, just like a 3x9 FF with Ballistic plex...and a turret....

Now that you're a turret twister, we're gonna have to talk you into a chronograph...

Sheesh, now you weasels have me thinking about spring and I was just getting my head settled for THE DARK TIME.

Load lots of varmint bullets during the dark time......

Why are you yelling at me?

IM NOT YELLING AT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

You are just hyper-sensitive.

Digging up this thread to say thanks Seafire and ingwe for the info and the enabling.

It motivated me to snag a pound of IMR 4198 yesterday to load up a "bunny load" with the 55g Horn SP W/C. I also have some 53g V-MAX's I could try but since Hornady doesn't bulk package those I'm hoping to get the el cheapo 55g SP's to work (since I have about 330 left).

Thanks!

Report back when you have tried them!

Any idea what the actual or expected velocity is outta that combination?

It does my heart good to see y'all discovering what a lot of us have been doing for decades- drastically reduced loads can be just as much (if not more) fun as full-tilt loads. That goes for every cartridge, not just .22CFs. Now if I could just tempt y'all away from using jacketed bullets you have to pay good money for...

Im expecting 1900 fps plus or minus.

The trajectory is about right for that speed.

Shot three 4-shot groups @ 50 yards this morning. I tried it in three different brands of brass, just to see if there was a preference.

Ruger M77 Hawkeye w/ 22" barrel
55 grain Hornady SP w/cann #2266
CCI 400 primers
12.5g IMR 4198
COAL 2.190" (0.011" off the lands in my rifle)

First up, FC brass (0.754" 4-shot group @ 50y)

V1 = 2,011 fps
V2 = 2,053 fps
V3 = 2,059 fps
V4 = 2,084 fps

Average velocity was 2,052 fps with a s.d. of 30.29 fps.

Next up, LC 14 brass (1.035" 4-shot group @ 50y)

(Chronograph failed to read all 4 shots)

Finally, R-P brass (0.781" 4-shot group @ 50y)

V1 = 2,008 fps
V2 = 2,023 fps
V3 = 2,019 fps
V4 = 1,978 fps

Average velocity was 2,007 fps with a s.d. of 20.34 fps.

I'm not sure about the double grouping. Perhaps a COAL adjustment may cure that? Not quite the same accuracy you are getting with the 50g V-MAX but the only other time I've tried this bullet it didn't group well at 100 yards (1.93"-2.85" 4-shot groups). So I'd say it did pretty darn well at 50 yards with a "bunny load".

These loads were a blast to shoot and make plinking darn cheap. I'm definitely going to play with this more, but I'm glad for this discussion.

Great load Seafire. And thanks for the thread, ingwe.

If you are shooting further than Ingwe was with his bunny loads... try up'ing the charge of 4198 to 14 grains...

should tighten up accuracy a little and also will yield an even 500 rounds out of a pound of powder...

Loading up for sage rat season coming up, I've been shooting them to 200 yds, with minute of sage rat or pop can accuracy, with 50 and 55 grain bullets...

the scope on top of the two rifles that will be using those loads this season do have Bushnell AR 223 scopes on top.. one in 3 x 12 and one in 4.5 x 18....

they have a few drop compensation points on the reticle and nice target turrets....

good enough glass for the job at hand...

reasonable prices.. got mine thru Optics Planet...

I tried Seafire's load of 8 Grains of Bluedot in my 204 Ruger. It shot well.

And to think I just finished a 223AI . . . . . .

No worries...the .223AI can be shot with reduced loads...I killed 52 bunnies with the AI and Trail Boss this past fall.

Looking good Azar! I don't know about the double grouping either, but the first place I'd go would be seating depth....as you mentioned COAL.

This is a very viable option to try for the double grouping too. In fact, Id try it first.

Well for tightening up those Groups Tom, I have a better idea...


use a dime to shoot at instead of a quarter....

Oregon Logic...

" Oregon Logic"



Thats like " Woman Logic" isn't it?

Worse, but not as bad as Oregon Women Logic....

and better than Ghetto BLM logic....

OK you wankers...it was a nice day at the range so I thought I'd play...


On one of these threads about reduced loads some guys asked ( after seeing 50 yard groups...) how they performed at 100 yards..


Since I'm a turret spinning MoFo,I spun and shot a couple for you....




Close-ups...both three shot groups.








It doesn't always turn out this way...but more than often enough!



The gophers are in for BIG trouble this spring!

Sweet!
What model Burris did you end up going with again?

The Burris MSR....$139 on either Amazon or Ebay....

Swweeeeeet there IngWe.....

That looks like a nice Budget Scope there...

3 x 9 or 4 x 12?

Might have to try one of those...

come Gopher Season and you realize that load will yield over 500 rounds from a pound of powder.... a lot of good trigger time is in your future...and Montana Gophers are going to have to tread lightly...

the coyotes, magpies, hawks, owls and Eagles will also be eatin well this spring...

3x9 Cant tell the difference between it and a FFII...and frankly, they are the same price, soooooo...

I never did post an update to trying more powder and seating depth adjustments with my reduced 55g Hornady SP loads w/ IMR 4198.

I took the load in FC brass and loaded up 13.0, 13.5, and 14.0 grains and shot them at 50 yards.

13.0g: 0.620" for 4-shots. A nice triangle with 2 in one hole. 2,119 fps, 20.3 fps S.D.
13.5g: 0.981" an oblong triangle with 2 in one hole. 2,193 fps, 31.2 fps S.D.
14.0g" 0.817" a slightly oblong triangle with 2 in one hole. 2,272 fps, 23.4 fps S.D.

I went from double grouping to getting at least two shots in one ragged hole and a triangle for each group. But the 13.0g was the smallest and "nicest" triangle. I decided to try a COAL adjustment with that to see what that would net me.

So I loaded up 13.0g IMR 4198 at 2.178" and 2.169" (was supposed to be 2.180" and 2.170" but slightly overshot on the seater stem both times).

13.0g @ 2.178": 0.784" for 4-shots. Three stacked vertically with one to the right forming a "sorta triangle". 2,058 fps, 8.0 fps S.D.
13.0g @ 2.169": 0.860" for 4-shots. Mostly a horizontal string with very little vertical dispersion. 2,053 fps, 20.2 fps S.D.

I think I'll stick with the 13.0g load @ 2.190" COAL (although the 2.180" COAL gave me the most consistent velocities).

Thanks for the tips guys!

Finally got out to try the Bluedot loads 223 13gr with 35,40 and 50 gr pills cant believe I'm just now trying this, with out adjusting the scope from my normal screamer loads shot about 2" higher at 50 and just about 1" low at 100 no horizontal change, haven't stopped grinning. NO recoil could see the print.... next H4198, even picked out the first bunny to collect this season

just ran thru a pound of Alliant "Steel" shotgun powder in the 223, 20 Practical and the 243...yielded 500 rounds out of a pound of powder in the 223 load, using 14 grain charge..

This has a slower burn rate than Blue Dot ( a little slower)

it is temp stable

is as bulky as Unique, which is bulkier than Blue Dot

it is as accurate as Blue Dot

if anyone has Blue Dot data in the above listed chamberings,
I found in my rifles that "Steel" can use the Blue Dot Data safely...

another feature Steel has over Blue Dot... you can find it on the shelves, unlike Blue Dot...

just passing on an FYI for anyone interested...

Any thought on loads for Lyman 225438 ? Cost per round should be less than 22 RF.

tried sea fires blue dot load. it shot great!

put ten into 3/4" at 100. it shot 2" higher than the factory hornady 40 gr vmax load.

load was 40gr vmax, rem 7 1/2 primer and hornady brass.

i'll be loading more this week to see if it will repeat.

It's not SEAFIRE's load, but he does get credit for a lot of development of variations on the concept.....

And, if I ever run out of Blooooooo Dotz and need an alternative, THEN I will bow before the Altar of Seafire in regards to Steel as an alternative.

Is Obama gone yet?

Man, I just passed on a couple 5 pounders of Blue Dot at Sportsmans a few weeks back. Kinda thought they would be there at least a little while. Oh well.

If STEEL works as well as Blue Dot for these loads, that would be a wonderful addition. There is a lot more of that around, and due to its use by the factories in their shotgun ammo, a lot of it gets produced.

1000is,

I bought a Lyman 225438 during the peak of the rimfire shortage, and it worked very well in my rifles. Cast from clip-on wheelweights they weighed 43.5 grains, and would put 5 into an inch or less at 50 yards with these loads:

.22 Hornet--5.0 A5744, 1080 fps
.223 Remington--4.0 Blue Dot, 1187 fps

225438 is a gas-check mold, but in my rifles the bullets shot best unsized and without gas-checks. I just cast 'em, rolled 'em around in Lee Alox and loaded them a day later. Pretty cheap and easy way to shoot. The primers in the Hornet loads were CCI 500's, and in the .223's Rem. 7-1/2's.

I got out twice more and shot the schitt out of a bunch of gophers with the 50 vmax/12.5 gr. 4198 load. Out to 150 yards its flat enough for sure, doesn't heat the barrel up near as quickly and is accurate, plus you can shoot it easily without earplugs if you desire.

It is the wave of the future on the killing fields....

I have enough blue dot to load about 10,000 rounds, there's blue bot all over PA

At times I am sorry I ever shared those Blue Dot loads with so many people...

I often wondered if I didn't, that we'd probably have never been seeing shortages of it...

actually I've got about 12 pounds of Steel on the way...

it'll be my "Blue Dot" for this season...

of course I've always got that 12.5 grains of 4198 to bounce back on, that Ingwe has been telling everyone about.... Tom's pretty darn smart coming up with a load like that...

just goes to show you younger guys, we older guys are smarter than you give us credit for.

I thought I stole that load from you......

Shhhhh.....

on the campfire, things are more legit if they come from Montana vs from Oregon...

Is the STEEL a legitimate replacement in all ways for these type of BLUE DOT loads?

I can get Steel all day everyday, but haven't seen BD in over 5 years.

Well Dakota,

Take this as you desire...

instead of taking the same amount of time working up and then posting all the load data that I did for Blue Dot...

I've been loading what I considered my max loads with several bullet weights in the 223, the 22.250 and the 243...

and using Blue Dot Data, they are just as safe in my rifles.

maybe when I have more spare time, I can take the time and do all the work I did with Blue Dot.. but that won't be anytime soon.

They claim ( the factory) that Steel is very Temp Insensitive... so far I haven't had 100 degree days to test that in...

Haven't had time to chronograph any of the loads either...

but the 223 for gophers has been minute of gopher and sage rat right out to 200 yds plus...

Thats true in the Campfire...and in life!

Well Potland has given US ALL a bad image in the last 20 to 30 years...

Thanks! If you run any data, I'd love to hear it. I can get STEEL every day of the week around here currently.

Here is some work I've done on STEEL loads, you might find informative


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...071714/Re:_223_reduce_loads#Post11071714

and Lane gets the credit for starting the ball rolling on this, not me. Credit goes to him! Even tho I had thought about it, the factory guys lead me to believe that it needed to be compressed to perform well.. which turned out to be BS.

Thanks again Lane, for getting me going on this!

Anyone running the really light bullets as reduced gopher loads? Midsouth sells their 34 gr HP for $42 per 500, that is practically shooting for free at about $.15 a shot for reloads.

Not tried the Midsouths, but my first Blue Dot gopher load back in 2001 or 2 was 35 grain VMs, and I still use those and 40 grainer BKs or VMs or whatever is priced right.
No warts on either. They scoot and shoot.

Good day everyone, I'm obviously new around here but someone on another forum told me to stop over here to research the "Blue Dot" phenomenon that's seemed to have swept the shooting arena. They specifically said to look up Mr. Seafire in particular.

I'd never heard of reduced loading until a buddy gave me some 42gr or 43gr James Calhoun Double HP bullets and asked me to develop a suitable fox cartridge for our 22-250's. This is what lead me to looking into reduced loads.

I try to do more reading than talking. Perhaps I have more reading to do but after reading this thread I have a few questions for all of the Blue Dot/Steel aficionados.

Although I understand that there's more than one way to skin a cat, which one, Blue Dot or Steel, are people now preferring?

Also, I'm looking at doing these reduced loads right now for my Howa 22-250. I've found data for my 223 and 243 but have not found specific data for the 22-250. Is there some that I've missed or is it pretty much the same data as the 223 and 243?

Thanks,
Chad

PM Seafire here...hes got reduced loads for .22-250


All Ive ever tried to reduce it was Trail Boss...seems to produce the same 1950fps in any gun Ive tried...

I did but I'm sure that he's been busy because he hasn't replied.

Found it! From 2007. I was searching all 1,000+ pages of Seafire's threads and found it. It only took a few hours.

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1334080/22-250_Reduced_loads

Should be easier to use the search function on this site...but its not for me!

Me neither but I found it. I figured since it wasn't popping up I'd just search Seafire's posts until something came up. With being from 9 years ago it was pretty far back there.

I have used the Nosler 40gr ballistic tip with awsome results

Chad,

Welcome to the Campfire...

since you removed yourself from the PM you sent me, I'll post this here....

Apologize for missing your post, but your timing wasn't real good...

I've been gone for the last week, as my son and I went to Colorado to watch the 100th Anniversary Running of the Pike's Peak Hill Climb....

Got home late last night... was gone all day up to Portland on business and then leave tomorrow morning for San Diego for Mom's Birthday... her being 86, I doubt she has a lot of them left, so I'm making this one...

Will be back on the 5th, so feel free to PM me if you have any more questions...

best regards
seafire

Thanks Seafire, I appreciate it. I figured that you were busy, I didn't take it personal. I was just having trouble finding the information. But several hours of searching your posts resulted in the me finding a previous post of yours.

I do have one question though. Since the post that I found was from 2007, and I read that since then you've also been working with Steel powder, which one would you recommend I buy?

I'll also send this question to you in a PM just in case you don't see this.

Again, I appreciate your help.

Chad

Heresy, I know, but there are a ton of other powders that will work nicely for reduced .22 loads too, other than Blue Dot and Trail Boss. Reoader-7, 2400, 4227, 4759, and Unique immediately come to mind- all of which I have used with sterling results. In fact, Trail Boss to me is one of poorest choices- not because it doesn't work but because of its poor "bang for the buck" quotient.

Thanks Gnoahhh, that gives me more to think about also.

Chad

Chad,

pick up a Lyman Cast Bullet reload manual....

it has a lot of loads, for a lot of calibers.. it will be your friend...

even tho it is for cast bullets, none of them are hitting close to SAAMI Specs, so you don't have much to be concerned about except good loading technics and habits at the reload bench....

Thanks Seafire, I'll see if my guy has one tomorrow.

This has been a very interesting read and something I've never tried. Let's see..... I have a couple thousand 223 cases that I've processed ready to load that have been sitting on the shelf for several years, several pounds of old surplus 4198 and several thousand 50 grain Nosler BTs and older Hornady SXs. I'm looking forward to putting these components together and trying some reduced loads!

Dennis.

load up 12.5 grains of the 4198 and rock on!


Honest to God I sold my 17HMR and will no doubt sell my .22LR as this fills the bills as a rimfire alternative...and a better one at that!

I sold my .17hmr as well and have replaced with several .223's. Not gonna sell any .22's though. That's just crazy talk.

You fellas looking for RF alternatives need to dive into the pool at the deep end. Anything you want can be found at Alice's Restaurant, all you got to do is open the door.

I know, I know, it's a .25-20, not a .22. and it's 100 yards, not 50. It's a levergun, not a scope sighted bolt banger. Bite me.



I fergot, it uses cast bullets. About 6 cents/shot.

Same gun, 50 yards and I was in a hurry.



Or you can run some of these thru your Hornet at about the same cost. They do OK at least up to 2300 fps, that's as fast as I've run 'em.





'Bout any middlin' fast powder will work, I use everything from Bullseye to 2400 and most of what's in the middle.

No disrespect to the Poobah, but I wouldn't be shootin' 'spensive bullets with this hoohah. Cast is cheaper and works as well or better than jacketed. An you don't have to stress as much about bullets stickin' in the bore. Well, when you get down to 1.5 grains of BE in a Hornet with a 26" barrel it might.

BD: I did the cast bullet thing for a few years, but finally tired of it...lubing was worse than casting. It will do as you say though...


But then again, you're crazy.

The voices in my head bother me not. You?

FWIW, I only do conventional lube with BP cartridges. Smokeless gets a dip in Alox cut 10% by volume with mineral spirits. Some add Johnson's liquid wax to the mix, I don't. I do dust 'em with a blend of mica and graphite while still just a bit tacky. Then they get sized as needed. No muss or fuss with the seating die that way.

Most use alloy harder than needed as well, IMHO. 30:1 covers a lot of bases. The Hornet bullets are 50/50 wheel weight/lino. Fastest I've gone with the softer alloy is about 1800 fps in a .30-30. I've experienced leading twice, both with the Sneezer and 800X.

Dusted bullets look like this before reloading. I tumble lube the small bullets, butt dip 7mm and larger calibers.

Tom,

I shoot cast bullets mostly in my .22 Hornet. Use a Lyman mold that's supposed to be a gas-check model, but after making a bunch out of wheelweights did some experimenting and found they shot best (around an inch for 5 shots at 50) without gas-checks or sizing. i just cast 'em and then roll 'em around in Lee Alox. Pretty easy and simple.

MD, I have an over active imagination and your "roll 'em around" verbiage tweaks my curiosity. Sounds like you're doing something other than tumble lubing. You have a trick up your sleeve I need to know about?

Or have you just sparked a new methodology? I'm thinking it sounds like a shallow "flat" maybe stroked with an Alox dripping brush....rolled not shaken in a manner of speaking.

Dan,

I put maybe a teaspoon of Alox in a small plastic tub, like the one the local supermarket sells their homemade salsa in, then dump in a bunch of bullets and roll them around gently. Once they're coated I pour them onto a sheet of waxed paper. Might ease them around on the paper a little 3-4 hours later as well, but might not. The next day they're dry and ready to load.

Thank you, pretty much what I do as well. But...I might try my imagination out on that.

I use the wax paper as well, and usually relocate them after about 45 minutes and a swipe of the base across a paper towel on the way to the clean spot on the W.P. It makes a difference on paper later on.

Another thing I discovered during experimentation with the Hornet is the as-cast bullets are just the right diameter (around .225") to seat WITHOUT neck-sizing the cases. So I just deprime, reprime, drop the powder charge and seat the bullet.

I much prefer keeping things simple and quick with the few rifle cartridges where I use cast loads. My Li'l Sharps .38-55 also shoots best with a certain alloy as cast from a Lee mold, then Aloxed.

This thread with out a doubt has brought sooooooooooooo much fun back in to my reloading shooting habits, all I can say is what powder is next, I actually knew about most but not Blue Dot , I started with Trail Boss, Blue Dot, HS-7, Steel, H4198 now off to try 4227 and Titegroup my 223s are liking life again,

Thank you guys

tag for future experimentation, thank you for the info