This is a basic tutorial for buying, selling, and shipping firearms IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE 1968 GUN CONTROL ACT AND U.S. POSTAL REGULATIONS.

The information presented here is taken directly from Title 18 United States Code, Chapter 44, Title 18 United States Code Chapter 83, and Title 27 CFR Chapter II Part 478 � Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition as presented in the �Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide.� (ATF publication 5300.4, revised September 2005.) http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Additional information is also presented from the United States Postal Service Domestic Mail Manual. http://pe.usps.com/framepdf.asp?Dest=dmmtoc.pdf

More anxiety and resulting misinformation has resulted from lawful firearms transactions than most any other consumer action conducted today. It�s important to understand the basic scope of the main federal firearms law regulating the sale and transfer of firearms whenever you find yourself engaged in buying and selling firearms and firearm-related items. The 1968 Gun Control Act, sometimes referred to as the �68 GCA, is the major firearms law currently in force in the United States. It sets the minimum standards that state and other local firearms laws must follow. The main purpose of the �68 GCA is the regulation of interstate firearms commerce. It establishes the Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) system that we know today and establishes standards of conduct for FFL holders. This same law also requires that most interstate firearms commerce must occur via an FFL holder.

What the �68 GCA does NOT do is provide regulation and standards of conduct for most firearms transactions between non-FFL holders or laypersons. These are governed primarily by laws enacted at the state and local level. (Laypersons are commonly referred to as �unlicensed persons� in BATFE literature.) Most of the �68 GCA addresses conduct of business by licensees and many unlicensed persons mistakenly believe this is directed at their conduct as a gun owner.

With regard to an unlicensed person making an interstate purchase or sale of a gun, this is what the �68 GCA says:

�� 922 Unlawful acts.

(a)It shall be unlawful�

(3) for any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b) (3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

The first paragraph simply stated says:

�It shall be unlawful�for any person other than a�licensed dealer�to�receive in the State where he resides�any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained�outside that State.� It means you may NOT legally purchase and directly receive a firearm from an out of state source unless you hold an FFL.

The second paragraph simply stated says:

�It shall be unlawful�to� transfer�any firearm �to any person other than a�licensed dealer� who the transferor knows�does not reside in�the State in which the transferor resides�� It means you CANNOT transfer a firearm to someone who is not a resident of your state unless the buyer possesses an FFL.

There is another part of that that I�ll touch on just briefly concerning buying long guns from an out-of-state FFL holder.

�� 922 Unlawful acts.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver�

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;�

I wanted to highlight this because it spells out that an unlicensed person may purchase a long gun from an out-of-state dealer in an in-person, over-the-counter transaction. If you�re on vacation to Jellystone and you see that cool new Benelli shotgun that no one back home had, you may buy it provided these terms are met:

�It shall be unlawful for any�licensed dealer�to sell�any firearm to any person who the licensee knows does not reside in the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this�shall not apply to the sale�of any rifle or shotgun�if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States��

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/state-laws/30th-edition/index.html

Another part of the �68 GCA that is misunderstood is the identification of an FFL holder. The �68 GCA only makes provisions for the exchange of license copies by FFL holders, there is nothing to require or in any way legally compel an FFL holder to provide a copy of a license to an unlicensed person.

This is what the �68 GCA says with regard to providing copies of licenses:

�� 478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.

A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary: Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the transferee's current license, (b) for a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is being returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee and (c) for licensees of multi-licensed business organizations to furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated by such organization: Provided further, That a multi-licensed business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete, containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the transferor transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified information required by this section may sell or dispose of firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the transferee's license.

� 478.95 Certified copy of license.

The license furnished to each person licensed under the provisions of this part contains a purchasing certification statement. This original license may be reproduced and the reproduction then certified by the licensee for use pursuant to � 478.94. If the licensee desires an additional copy of the license for certification (instead of making a reproduction of the original license), the licensee may submit a request, in writing, for a certified copy or copies of the license to the Chief, National Licensing Center. The request must set forth the name, trade name (if any) and address of the licensee, and the number of license copies desired. There is a charge of $1 for each copy. The fee paid for copies of the license must accompany the request for copies. The fee may be paid by (a) cash, or (b) money order or check made payable to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms."

Simplified, it says this:

�A licensed dealer selling�firearms�to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary�� There is NO requirement under the �68 GCA for an FFL holder to provide a copy of a license to an unlicensed person. An FFL holder at his discretion may do so, but there is no legal requirement stating such. An unlicensed person may use the BATFE�s FFL eZ Check to verify a license if this is a concern: http://www.atf.gov/applications/fflezcheck

Then there is the matter of shipping firearms. Unlicensed persons may use the United States Postal Service, UPS or Federal Express to ship long guns and UPS or Federal Express ONLY to ship handguns. (I�ll address what shipping options federal firearms licensees have later.) UPS and Federal Express each have a policy � this is their POLICY, NOT THE LAW � requiring handguns to be shipped via overnight. There is no law requiring overnight shipping services to be used, nor is there any law requiring you to notify anyone you�re shipping a firearm provided the recipient is a federal firearms licensee. This is what the �68 GCA says about shipping firearms:

"� 922 Unlawful acts.

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm."

"� 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm."

Simply stated, it says this:

"It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered...to persons other than...licensed dealers...any package...in which there is any firearm...without written notice to the carrier that such firearm...is being...shipped..."

You can save yourself a lot of headaches with UPS and Federal Express by opening up an account online. You can print, attach, and pay for shipping labels without having to stand in line or having to argue with a misinformed little person at one of their service counters. Accounts are free and you can either drop off or give to a driver when you�re ready to ship. (Scheduling a pickup is an extra expense you may want to avoid.)

https://www.fedex.com/fcl/web/jsp/c...tionhome&programIndicator=ss90705920

https://www.ups.com/myups/registrat...tent/us/en/index.jsx?openModule=Tracking

The United States Postal Service (USPS) will accept long guns from unlicensed persons and handguns from federal firearms licensees:

"11.3 Rifles and Shotguns

Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e

11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice."

12.1.5 Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms, licensed dealers of firearms, and licensed importers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

12.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

A federal firearms licensee manufacturer, dealer or importer need not file the affidavit under 12.1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer, dealer or importer of firearms. The mailer must also state that the parcels containing handguns, or parts and components of handguns under 12.1.2d, are being mailed in customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of their knowledge the addressees are licensed manufacturers, dealers or importers of firearms.

PS 1508 for dealers: http://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf

Should you need to find an FFL holder to receive a firearm, try here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/DealerNetwork.aspx
http://www.gunsamerica.com/FFLSearch.htm

SHIPPING FIREARMS TO CALIFORNIA

Shipping to California has been the single biggest source of confusion for gun owners since the expiration of the AWB. THERE ARE NO SPECIAL REGULATIONS THAT APPLY TO UNLICENSED PERSONS WISHING TO SHIP TO CALIFORNIA. SIMPLY SHIP AS YOU WOULD TO A FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEE IN ANY OTHER STATE.

Below is the text to section 27555 of the California Penal Code as it applies to FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEES wishing to ship firearms to California -- THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO AN UNLICENSED PERSON:

"27555. (a) (1) Commencing July 1, 2008, a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code may not sell, deliver, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to sell, deliver, or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended sale, delivery, or transfer, from the Department of Justice."

It states:

"...a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44...of Title 18 of the United States Code may not...transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44...of Title 18 of the United States Code unless...the person intending to...transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended...transfer from the Department of Justice."

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=27001-28000&file=27500-27590
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview

What this does is requires an FFL holder to verify the validity of the California FFL holder's license with the State of California prior to shipping a firearm there. It ONLY applies to FFL holders wishing to ship to California and has absolutely NO bearing on an unlicensed person.

Should you add the C&R distinction? While they are the minority of guns, they nevertheless exist.

gonna copy and paste the whole thing to another forum i visit, thanks all the hard work. (and no i wont take credit for it)

Right now I'm only going to focus on the basics of buying, selling, and shipping. I'll add more later.

Thanks Bricktop, good info.

Rick should make this a sticky.

I sent a PM asking him to do that. I'll add more later for C&R stuff, address the issue of providing driver's license copies, shipping to California, FFL holders who only want to receive from other FFL holders, maybe post some legal determinations, etc.

+1 on the sticky!!!

Bricktop,if you keep doing this you will end up with a good reputation.(insert smile here)

Hope you are doing well these days.

I better quit then.

BRICKTOP, I LIKED YOU BEING MEAN, THIS BEING NICE STUFF IS GOING TO RUIN YOUR REP.

Its ok.. when a newbie starts a topic asking for shipping info, Bricktop can be as mean as he wants as he refers the newbie to the sticky.

Sick mun! But... he's got my vote.

C&R in CA (and perhaps in other non-free states?) does need to be addressed, may I suggest a separate thread/sticky just for C&R?

Thanks Bricktop. Good stuff!

donsm70

Good stuff, really should be a sticky. Add a linkie to the post in your sig line.

As many times as the question is asked how to ship guns it could use it own Forum.
It's the first time that I've read anything by Bricktop that didn't contain !@#$%^&*()_+:"?>< in the place of words and letters.

GREAT JOB Bricktop

It's all a set-up.

Good stuff! Maybe include some info. on trading also.

Thanks!

O Daade, i so porowd of yu!!!!

that's funny right there............

Great work, and Thank you. I will bring something to point. These laws deal with interstate shipping of firearms, not in-state shipping of firearms. I've had many people tell me in the past that I don't know what I'm talking about but....A non-licensed seller can indeed sell, transfer, and ship to a non-licensed buyer in his or her own state without going through an FFL holder to complete the transfer.

Thanks again,
Rick

Quiet, Buckwheat. The men are talking......,

chang my mind

That's a lot of work. Thanks for the effort.

excellent information

Nice work - big thanks for putting this together! It has an unusually pleasant tone.... Cheers!

Good stuff....I think you should add some language about what a seller should provide a buyer in terms of information. Address, serial number of weapon, etc??? What is a reasonable expectation of information for a seller to receive from the buyer.

What method of payment is reasonable that provides some sort of protection for both buyer and seller. USPS Money Order? Cashier Check? ???

Etiquette and terms are for the two parties to resolve. My information focuses on compliance with the '68 GCA only.

Ok, but perhaps a new thread on reasonable expectations would be helpful. Sort of guard rails for folks to bounce between. There has to be some standard must haves and a the nice haves can be listed and debated between parties..

Very informative and well written. Thank you Bricktop

+1 to the above, thanks.

Brilliant written opus.

Tack

Bricktop, been alot of pissing and moaning about this subject.
Thank You for a very informative post on the regs and what is correct and what is BS.

Rick should lock it so it doesn't become a 15 page abortion that guys have to wade through to find the pertinent information.

Should be a BT only thread.

Just a thought.

Travis

+1, Rick should delete the replies including mine and let Bricktop have his own sticky...he deserves it!

++ Like they said.

New Bricktop...New image?

Bricktop is redeeming himself in my book. Now its the USPS's turn!

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Firearms Shipping Guide


(last updated on 10/25/2010)
Firearms Shipping Guide



Overview
This page provides information about Federal Laws, step that must be followed, and notes on using specific shippers when shipping firearms. This page is oriented toward the seller of an item. If you need information about how to buy a firearm through GunBroker.com, please refer to our Buyer's Tutorial.

This page contains information oriented toward persons shipping firearms within the United States. For sellers located outside the United States, please see our

Import / Export page.

Shipping Legalities
Federal Law requires that all modern firearms be shipped to a holder of a valid Federal Firearms License (FFL) only. The recipient must have an FFL; however the sender is not required to have one. Any person who is legally allowed to own a firearm is legally allowed to ship it to an FFL holder for any legal purpose (including sale or resale).

Here is exactly what the ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says:
(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

'Antique' firearms need not be shipped to a licensed dealer. These can be shipped directly to the buyer. An antique firearm is a firearm built in or before 1898, or a replica thereof. The exact ATF definition of an antique firearm is:
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.



Knives, air guns, accessories, and most gun parts need not be shipped to an FFL holder. We say most gun parts because each firearm contains at least one part that the ATF considers a firearm. This part is typically the part that contains the serial number. This part must be treated as a complete firearm when shipping the item.

Ammunition must be clearly identified as 'Small Arms Ammunition' on the outside of the box. Some shippers treat ammunition as dangerous or hazardous materials.

The section of the US Code that governs modern firearms is called Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition (CFA). This code is available online at:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_09/27cfr478_09.html

When in doubt, we suggest arranging for transfer through a licensed dealer. Violation of the CFA is a felony and penalties for violation of it are severe.

Federal and State Law Resources
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) has a very comprehensive site containing information about the various Federal and state laws regulating firearms. Please refer to the ATF information for legal questions regarding firearms.
ATF Home page:

http://www.atf.gov
ATF Compilation of the various state laws: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5.pdf
ATF Firearms Division Main Page: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/

Shipment by Unlicensed Persons
Any shipper who does not have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to be an 'unlicensed person'. This section contains information on how unlicensed persons can ship firearms. If you have an FFL, please skip to the next section for shipping suggestions.

The most important thing to know is that you must only ship guns to a licensed dealer. If the buyer is not a licensed dealer, he will have to make arrangements to ship the item to a dealer in his state.

Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the dealer's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license. You must inform the carrier that the package contains a firearm. Of course, the firearm cannot be shipped loaded; ammunition may not be shipped in the same box. You should take the copy of the signed FFL with you when you take the item to be shipped in case the shipper wishes to see it.

Notes on specific shippers:

US Mail: An unlicensed person can ship a rifle or shotgun by US Mail. Unlicensed persons cannot ship a handgun by US Mail. Postal regulations allow the Post Office to open your package for inspection. Ammunition cannot be shipped by US Mail. You can search the

US Post Office Postal Explorer site for specific USPS regulations regarding firearms and ammunition.

FedEx Express: FedEx will only ship firearms via their Priority Overnight service. Ammunition must be shipped as hazardous goods via Ground in compliance with ORM-D.

FedEx Ground:

FedEx Ground will transport and deliver firearms (excluding handguns) as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S. Ammunition must be shipped as hazardous goods via Ground in compliance with ORM-D.

UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will accept shipments of ammunition. Most other shippers will no longer accept firearm shipments. Airborne and Roadway have specifically prohibited firearm shipments.

Shipment by Licensed Persons
Any shipper who has a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to be a 'licensed person'. This section contains information on how licensed persons can ship firearms. If you do not have an FFL, please see the previous section of this page for shipping instructions.

Since licensed persons are responsible for knowing the law, we are going to assume that you already understand the CGA and know the applicable Federal, state, and local laws.

Notes on specific shippers:

US Mail: Licensed persons can ship a rifle, shotguns, or handguns by US Mail. In fact, we suggest that you use the USPS as it is now the most cost-effective way to ship a handgun. To ship a rifle or shotgun, you need only inform the Post Office that the package contains a firearm. A licensed manufacturer, dealer, or importer can ship a handgun via the US Post Office if the licensed dealer fills out a

US Post Office Form PS 1508 and files it with the local Post Office branch where the handgun is to be shipped. You can search the US Post Office Postal Explorer site for specific USPS regulations regarding firearms and ammunition.

FedEx Express: FedEx will only ship firearms via their Priority Overnight service. Ammunition must be shipped as hazardous goods via Ground in compliance with ORM-D.

UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will accept shipments of ammunition.

Most other shippers will no longer accept firearm shipments. Airborne and Roadway have specifically prohibited firearm shipments.

Notes on USPS Firearm Regulations
We recommend that you read the Post Office regulations on

Other Restricted or Nonmailable Matter before shipping a firearm through the US Mail.

The following info comes from the USPS Regulation DMM Issue 54, January 10, 1999, section C-024

Page C-39, section 3.0, Rifles and Shotguns: "Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 1.1e and 1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act or 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated there under, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 1.1e."

Page C-39, section 6.0, PROHIBITED PARCEL MARKING: "For any parcel containing a firearm or a ballistic or switchblade knife, any marking that indicates the contents is not permitted on the outside wrapper or container."

The following pertains only to licensed dealers shipping handguns:

Page C-37, section 1.3, Authorized Persons: "Subject to 1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government......."

Page C-38, section 1.5, Manufacturers and Dealers: "Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts."

Page C-38, section 1.6, Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers: "A licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms, that the parcels containing handguns (or major components thereof) are customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms."



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(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

From what I understand from this is in shipping a handgun thru UPS or Fedex it's required by law to notifiy UPS or Fedex that it's a handgun.

Thanks Brick, good job, the fire has needed this for a while.

Claybreaker

Absolutely WRONG. Look at the sections of the '68 GCA referenced in your quote:

�� 922 Unlawful acts.

(a)It shall be unlawful�

(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that�

(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm."

"� 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm."

Simply stated, it says this:

"It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered...to persons other than...licensed dealers...any package...in which there is any firearm...without written notice to the carrier that such firearm...is being...shipped..."

The FAQs that people keep using for reference on the BATFE's website are WRONG and do not qualify as a legally-binding determination on behalf of the BATFE or any other government entity. A written request to the BATFE's legal department -- this is an important distinction -- will produce a letter in reply on official BATFE letterhead stating that they are aware that the FAQs are WRONG as well as reaffirming what I've posted.

"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives cannot respond to e-mail inquiries relating to technical, policy and/or legal questions. Inquiries of this nature can only be addressed through a letter outlining your questions to the following address:

"Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
99 New York Avenue, NE, Room 5S 144
Washington, DC 20226 USA

You will receive a written response to your inquiry."

http://www.atf.gov/contact/

I put all of this together to clear away the mountain of CRAP people keep referencing and repeating. You need to move past that.

There's more baloney floating around about firearms shipping than one can pile in a day.....IMO Bricktop knows his stuff and I'd take his word on it over anyone else!

Anyone know what the rules would be to ship a Remington 700 muzzleloader action from MN to IL. Trigger included with action but no firing pin?

The '68 GCA defines a firearm as follows:

"� 921 Definitions.

(a) As used in this chapter�

(3) The term "firearm" means (A)any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm."

Notice there's no exclusion for firing pin removal nor is a firing pin included in the definition of a firearm. That bullshit old wives' tale needs to STOP.

Illinois law goes further:

"65/1.1. Definitions For purposes of this Act:

'Firearm' means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:

(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or BB gun which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second or breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;

(2) any device used exclusively for signaling or safety and required or recommended by the United States Coast Guard or the Interstate Commerce Commission;

(3) any device used exclusively for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition; and

(4) an antique firearm (other than a machine-gun) which, although designed as a weapon, the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon."

"'Firearm' means any device...designed to expel a projectile...by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas...excluding...an antique firearm...the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon."

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5-2011/atf-p-5300-5-illinois-2011.pdf

Federal law provides exempts muzzleloaders from the '68 GCA, while Illinois law leaves the door open for a state police bureaucrat to arbitrarily define them as firearms.

A basic Google search for "Illinois State Police" yields this:

"Do I need a valid FOID card for a muzzleloader or blackpowder gun?

Yes. In Illinois, muzzleloaders and blackpowder guns are considered firearms."

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

Shipment of a muzzleloader to Illinois would need to be received by a federal firearms licensee as on any other Title I weapon.

If I SHIP THE TRIGGER AND ACTION SEPERATLY WOULD I BE LEGAL?

I'm sorry, but are you F*CKING SERIOUS? You didn't understand a damned thing that was posted in response to your question, did you?

I'm going to answer AGAIN and I'm going to ask you to NOT respond in order to not pollute this thread any further.

UNDER FEDERAL LAW A FIREARM IS DEFINED AS ANY WEAPON CAPABLE OF EXPELLING A PROJECTILE AS WELL AS THE THE FRAME OR RECEIVER OF THE WEAPON -- MEANING THE ACTION.

FEDERAL LAW EXEMPTS MUZZLELOADERS FROM THE DEFINITION OF A FIREARM -- THAT'S THE MINIMUM STANDARD.

ILLINOIS LAW RECOGNIZES MUZZLELOADERS AS FIREARMS AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW, MEANING ANY MUZZLELOADER SENT TO ILLINOIS WOULD NEED TO BE RECEIVED BY A VALID FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEE AND TRANSFERRED AS A FIREARM TO THE PROSPECTIVE BUYER.

THE TRIGGER AND FIRING PIN ARE CLEARLY NOT MENTIONED IN THE DEFINITION OF A FIREARM -- THE RECEIVER IS. IF YOU WANTED TO SEND ALL OF THE PARTS MINUS THE RECEIVER TO THE BUYER YOU WOULD BE LEGAL IN DOING SO, BUT THE RECEIVER WOULD STILL NEED TO BE RECEIVED AND TRANSFERRED JUST LIKE ANY OTHER FIREARM UNDER ILLINOIS LAW.

AM I CLEAR? IS ANY OF THIS MAKING IT THROUGH TO YOU?

I'm sorry, but are you F*CKING SERIOUS?(YES) You didn't understand a damned thing that was posted in response to your question, did you? (NO I DID NOT)


AM I CLEAR? IS ANY OF THIS MAKING IT THROUGH TO YOU? (GOT IT!!THX!!)

I'm going to answer AGAIN and I'm going to ask you to NOT respond in order to not pollute this thread any further. (SORRY!!! WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN)

OK Question on Handguns

"There is no law requiring overnight shipping services to be used, nor is there any law requiring you to notify anyone you�re shipping a firearm provided the recipient is a federal firearms licensee. "

So what do you list contents as for Fedex and UPS? What if it gets lost or damaged?

If you sign up for an account to create your own shipping labels, you'll never be asked to list anything, in person or on the form.

If you find yourself compelled to tell the person at the shipping counter your package's contents, "machined tool parts" or "machined forgings" works just fine.

A loss is covered regardless.

Thank you sir

I had a local pawn shop owner who has a FFL tell me today that is was illegal for a private owner to ship a firearm to a FFL holder.I tried to explain to him that he was wrong,but he just kept telling me that I didn't know the law.

See your pirating of my Ruger No. 1 thread got it locked down eh?

Not to worry I have two more BOUGHT HERE incoming and they will get posted with lots of pictures.

Larry it ain't flying..........

I would never believe anything dicktop writes. He has been on my ignore list for some time.

If you could read, that might carry some weight.

Thanks Bricktop; too bad a "sticky" has to continue to get all this crap. Job well done in spite of people judging you rather than the facts.

Agreed!

Agreed +2

Thanks for posting this BT. Though some have an incomprehensible hard time figuring this out it seems.

OT or not, I would ask that if one has a preferred means of payment and does not take PayPal for example to please post that info in your original listing.

Nothing more frustrating than to declare "I'll take it" only to find out that the seller has all these stipulations on the sale. Shipping, insurance, and perhaps item location would all be helpful.

Sorry OP if this is too far OT but it's all part of the process.

I buy a ton here and am finding this thread very useful.

Thanks,

David

I'll likely redo this thread and ask Rick to re-tack and lock it to keep f*cking "Larry" and his multiple identities the f*ck out. I'll also create a suggested etiquette thread as well. These will be good tools to smooth the buying and selling process.

I just opened a UPS account based on the sound advice of BT.
I've been on this sight long enough to know who knows. BT's "job" knowledge is among the best.

WTF???? Brick starts a useful thread with great tips and this racist prick MOZEZ starts in with lightly veiled racist commentary.

Right, this needs to be stopped and this poster needs to be barred permanently and right now.

Eh76 called it: "mozez" is another of Larry Root's multiple identities. (Oldman1942, Boss_Lady, interthem, rootmanslim, mtdorarider, etc.) He has apparently discovered the Google translator tool; he takes a posting in English, has Google translator convert it to Spanish, and then converts that back to English and posts it. He thinks he's rather clever.

I'm curious if some of the same people who attempted to defend him in the Single Shot forum will be as eager to do the same now. (I.e., MikeFletcher and Talus_in_Arizona.)

Step one:I just signed up for the free UPS account.
Step two: Measured and weighed my shipment.
Step three: entered all pertinant info (no question of what is it)
Step four: printed the label.
Step five: dropped it off at UPS, no questions asked.....
Knowledge is power and life is once again good.....;

Here is a question I hope can be answered here.
If I were to buy a brand new action alone from a supplier such as Brownells or others can I check in box 18 on the 4473, Other AND Handgun?
For instance, the LH Savage SA has been made by Savage as both a long gun and the Striker handgun. Since that action cannot be considered as being capable of ONLY being made into a long gun, as specified in the instructions on the 4473 for box 18 it would seem that one could use both the Other and Handgun classifications.
If this is the case, and one has all the other required permits to buy a handgun, would registering it as such establish that particular action as a handgun forevermore?
If one now has an action registered as a handgun is one free to switch stocks and barrel lengths at will to make it a handgun with a 10" barrel and a handgun stock one day and a rifle with a 24" barrel and a rifle stock the next?
Would this also apply to say a brand new Remington 700 action or any brand new bolt operated action for that matter even if that particular action manufacturer never made a handgun from it?

Here's a ruling from the BATFE:

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Thanks BT!

If I read that legalese correctly, and I'm not certain I do, I could buy a brand new LH Savage SA and on the 4473 check OTHER in box 18 and at that point I can make either a handgun or a rifle out of it.
I would appreciate any further insight you may have on this BT. Am I understanding it at all correctly?

It's my understanding from reading that ruling and discussing this with an FFL/S.O.T. friend that the firearm would still be sold as a rifle or handgun as currently assembled. (Virgin receivers are sold as receivers; receivers and actions that were formerly rifles are still rifles.) The end user can then acquire the parts to completely reconfigure the rifle into a handgun or vice-versa provided each set of conversion parts is kept together without having stepped into NFA territory.

As long as your conversion is configuring from one type of Title I firearm to another type of Title I firearm, then you haven't crossed into the purview of the NFA.

However, if you bought a conversion to simply attach a buttstock to a handgun or to add a short barrel of less than 16-inches to a rifle, then it would appear your intent was to create an NFA weapon.

I didn't find this but maybe it's buried in all the posts someplace.
I need a copy of sheet you need to fill out at the Post Office when you're sending a longgun through the mail.
It would be easier to have it with you than stand in line and fill it out.
Anybody have a copy they can post to make copies?

There's not any "sheet" required for sending a long gun. The DMM states that you MAY be required to verify that the long gun is unloaded prior to mailing, not SHALL verify. The difference in the language being "may" means might and "shall" means mandatory.

If you feel you need to declare a long gun to the USPS, I'd be happy to post up a standard boiler plate statement I sometimes use, but you're under no legal obligation to do so.

BT,
If I understand correctly, two persons residing in the same state may ship firearms to each other without using a FFL desler. Is that correct?
John

With regard to federal law, that is correct. Some states also regulate intrastate private sales (like California), but by and large it is permissible to ship another resident of your state a firearm without using an FFL holder.

Thanks for the reply Bricktop. I recently traded with another Fire member who lived in Texas also. No problems. I did use UPS however. Now crossing the Red River.....

I hope that a question about buying and selling but avoiding shipping is on topic.

Is the transfer described in the quote above a violation of Federal law, assuming that neither party has an FFL?

My reading of ATF FAQs makes me think it is a violation, despite crossing a state border to make the transfer in the purchaser's state of residency. I may be misinterpreting the FAQs, or they may be incorrect.

Thanks.
--Bob

Yes, you are correct. The '68 GCA does not permit unlicensed persons who are residents of different states to transfer a firearm without going through a federal firearms licensee. However, I have never ever seen any sort of credible data that would lead me to believe that the BATFE or any U.S. Attorney's office is using any sort of resources to track down and prosecute these; there's just not a lot of funding to prosecute a private sale between two otherwise law-abiding gun owners. I won't openly suggest anyone violate the law, but use your best judgement on something like this.

Bricktop-
I appreciate your time and effort spent in the reply.

Your point about the impracticality of tracking such transfers is noted. However, it's easy to imagine how federal law enforcement might become interested in illegal transfers by individuals no matter how otherwise law abiding they might be.

Thanks.
--Bob

Unless you're involved in the trafficking of narcotics, child pornography, terrorism or any other major crime, it's not likely to ever happen.

Just did this with a left/left savage action. My FFL did the paper work to ATF regs,it came from the factory custom shop as "un-designated," to be used as a pistol build. If I go by there I'll get a copy and see what he included.

The custom shop at savage knew what to send for ffl, very helpful people. The ffl called and confirmed with TWO district offices just to make sure his paper work was correct.

I don't know how many f*cking times I have to repeat this, A F*CKING TELEPHONE CALL DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A LEGALLY BINDING DETERMINATION. IT IS WORTH EXACTLY WHAT IT COSTS TO TALK TO SOMEONE -- NOTHING. I'm happy your "ffl called and confirmed with TWO district offices just to make sure his paper work was correct." However, it ain't worth sh*t and should NOT be passed around as "proof" of anything other than your source has the ability to possibly use a telephone and you have the ability to post about it on an internet forum.

If you have "proof" that further clarifies a section of the '68 GCA, then get it IN WRITING ON AN OFFICIAL BATFE LETTERHEAD FROM THE BATFE'S LEGAL DEPARTMENT. Otherwise, don't post it here.

Have noted that on this website there are people who hold themselves out to be experts of all the complex rules regarding shipments of firearms.
Insofar as I have been able to determine NONE of these people are employees of the BATF, licensed import/export agents or attorneys with "standing" before any Federal/state/local court. Just a "heads up" that the advice you get from somebody on the Internet is worth about as much as you pay for it. Should you run afoul of some Federal, state, county, city or even village law, the person you got the great advice from will not be standing there in court next to you or sharing your cell. Both Gunbroker.com and the BATF websites have a lot of good info but if you live in a whacko state or city, using a licensed dealer to handle your all your shipments may well be worth the added expense. Back when I lived in New York state, all my shipments went through an FFL although not required by law. At $30 a pop it was a lot cheaper than one hour of my attorney's fees. Now that I live in "free state", it's not a real concern. The law says "moderns" can be shipped by an individual to an FFL, incoming must come to an FFL, but that's the basic Federal law.
There are many, many more bells and whistles depending what it is, where you are and where it's going. Ignorance of the law(s) is no excuse and being able to "cut and paste" from a BATF website does not make you an expert. Just my $.02. Thanks.

Who are you today Larry... the old geriatric [bleep] or the ole [bleep] with hot flashes suffering menopause... Appears to be the latter...

Nope just a member trying to help other members from getting into trouble.
I'm always happy to be of assistance in pointing out potential pot holes to people who may be mislead into believing that everything on the Internet is factual. There are actually folks who believe that someone who can cut and paste sections of documents from various usgov websites actually has any real experience or expertise in what they are talking about. It is especially troubling to me that people handing out this unofficial advice will not even reveal their actual identity. Taking that type of information as gospel is rather like consulting with your gunsmith on brain surgery. I prefer to get my information from experienced dealers that actually hold FFL augmented by sound legal advice from attrorneys who have actually dealt in cases involving shipment of firearms.

Sorry to hear about your menopause issues, try hormone injections. May be able to ""git er up" again.

Larry... Duane... Roger... Karen... Sybil... irregardless of the name you use, you're still the same old gender confused, paranoid delusional geriatric TROLL.

Laughable how you now claim to be here to "Help the membership". Extremely telling of your true "character" (lack there of) that you find it necessary to continually circumvent Rick Bin's wishes for you to be gone from his website by adding numerous screen names for the sole intent and purpose to TROLL a site where you are neither wanted nor offer ANYTHING of real use and value to the membership, other than Brownells number...

You live your pathetic excuse of an existence vicariously through Gun Rags and books and then claim and spew them as if it were first hand experience, yet it is something you've only read and never done. I'll grant you that you're a plethora of antiquated and useless knowledge.

You've been banned here multiple times and have multiple user names and even claim to be your wife from time to time! You've done the same thing on many other Forums, and have been banned from them as well ... (SnipersHide, Optics Talk, ARAIG, just to name a few...)

You have lied about being a "Fighter Pilot", combat service, heroism, etc. and were outed as the liar and despicable poser that you are.

You absolutely love flapping your gums and opening your diseased cock holster calling people liars and trolls... That's about all you have left to tickle your vagina, and soon that will be over...

You have to stroke your pathetic and imbecilic persona on the Internet as you've failed miserably at life and don't get the attention you crave at home... 70 years of useless existence and this is how you chooses to make a name for yourself...

Utterly pathetic...

Fosteology

What is your purpose on this site. Is it to go to each and every thread and show everyone that you know how to swear and put down people. Have you ever once written about the merits of the post instead of using Ad Hominem arguments. Do you have any conception whatsoever of what truth is?

FOst has done more good for people on this site than most.
He recently GAVE a very nice rifle to the young son of a servicemember.

His post above is in response to the post of a many times banned member of this forum who continually disregards the wishes of the OWNER of this site that he stay away.
This member pretends to be others, signs up under numerous names and generally behaves as a child.
This member deserves every bit of scorn he receives.

And the Owner told you his wishes? How does one get in contact with the owner?

At the bottom of every single page here there is a link to Rick Bin, the owner of this site.

When the owner bans someone from here, and he's the only one who can do that, it makes it abundantly clear what the wishes of the owner are.

Well, I am certainly not saying that I think Mr. Bin has done anything wrong. But I would add that being the owner doesn't make the decisions made by the owner right, just like being a dictator doesn't make everything the dictator does right.

22WRF
This is absolutely his private "house" and he can do absolutely anything he wants... We are here only as his guests and subject to an eject button at his whim. When someone gets the eject button and works one of the angles to get around said button they are breaking several laws.

Obviously there is a fine line between opening things to everyone and having to keep the bad ones out... But bad ones interfer with his ability to sell advertising as they interfer with his ability to attract readers.

Individuals like you do nothing to increase the marketability of this site. Quite the contrary... people leave because of posters like you, on a regular basis. Why not try to add something of value sometime?

Well said SD.

I wholeheartedly agree.

You have committed the inexcusable free classified crime of owner dictator association by using the word dictator in the same line as Rick Bin and compromising the illuminati SYSOP's rule over this web forum. The free classified hall monitor sentences you to be referenced only as dictater from here out forward.....

Sitka Deer

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think its the other way around. I have purchased many items from businesses who advertize on this site. I have made at least three purchases from CameraLand, which I believe advertizes here. I have made purchases from Kimber and Zeiss and Swarovski,and Midway USA, which I believe advertize here. And I will keep supporting those who advertize here when I need something they sell.

Hope you are doing the same.

The value I am trying to add is to point out to people that they need not talk about an issue by attacking the other person just as you are doing here.

I wonder what advertizers would say about a thread like this one, or any thread where there is a lot of swearing and putting down people.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...lat/Number/6564446/gonew/1/FS_gun#UNREAD

22WRF
Clearly, you are as informed about advertising as you are everything else in life...

Just how does a company quantify anonymous fantasy purchases? Those are pretty rich transactions for a youngster... Or did you just buy the T-shirts?

If you consider my first post an attack I suggest it is time for you to put on your big girl panties... You are not going to change anyones attitude about anything except yourself, and that has taken a turn South. It has almost no chance of rising.

Funny thing is I get the feeling I am actually talking to Larry Root here because he argues just like you and makes exactly no positive contributions... just like you.

I can just about guarantee that Larry has been in touch with 22WRF.
They are two sides of the same coin.

What have I lied about Kevin? What "truth" are you referring to??

"Just how does a company quantify anonymous fantasy purchases? Those are pretty rich transactions for a youngster... Or did you just buy the T-shirts?"

I agree. They are pretty rich for a youngster, but I am not a youngster.

Fosteology

I didn't say you lied. I am talking more about epistemology and the central problems of the nature of truth. I am not saying this is you, but there are many folks that believe something is true based on custom, tradition, time, feelings, instinct, hunches, intuition, revelation, majority rule, general consensus, naivety, pragmatism, and other pathways. And it could be that when of these tests is applied to a theory the theory could be true, which strengthens the idea that the method for testing is relevant. But in the long run, none of these ideas really proves truth.

However, many of these ideas are what are used here on 24 hour to advance ideas as truth. They get bound up in these material fallacies of reasoning that I often speak about, such as linguistic fallacies, and fallacies of irrelevant evidence such as Ad Hominem arguments and Ad Ignorantiam arguments, and Ad Popullum arguments.

Some of these arguments that I see here on 24 hour are so far out in left field it ins't even funny.

It really doesn't matter though. I am not stupid enough to believe I can change the minds of people who don't know any better. Not even close.

You keep calling me Kevin. May I have your first name, please?

Man you are just heading down the path to them banning you. once NSAQAM is on your case, you are toast. He must have photos of Bin doing something in a public restroom as he controls him 100%.

They are FOOLs ! There is no point in debating with them. They are immune to any reasonable discussion. Once they decide to HATE you, they will do ANYTHING they can to get your butt sacked.

Larry, another persona and another attack on Rick Bin.

You are a champ!

Seems like cannister has been outed already....again

And he wonders why he gets banned continually.

Just say "Larry," that's his name and watch that turd get flushed down the drain!

Looks more like Bricktop "got flushed" back on 6/1 when he never held up his end of his big bet on "Larry" being a image robber.
Just sayin.

Looks like another of Larry's sad and lame 79+ screen names (cannister, simivalley and now dokhalliday) is going to be merged with oldmantrannydouche.

Larry, please continue with your asinine Crusade / "War for the Site" against the so called "Internet bullies" and liars (normal folk that disagree with you and point out your blatant BS).

It's rather embarrassing and pathetic how a "man" your age (70 now?) is consumed with petty Internet battles. At your age, you should be sitting back and enjoying the remaining days left on your rotten ticker, instead of trying to be SOMEONE on the Internet.

"(normal folk that disagree with you and point out your blatant BS)."

Come on. Normal folk don't behave like this.

"It's rather embarrassing and pathetic how a "man" your age (70 now?) is consumed with petty Internet battles."

Its rather embarrasing and pathetic how quite a few of the people on this site are consumed with petty internet battles, or should I ad hominem internet battles, with nothing good to say about anyone else.

Fosteology. Are you afraid to provide me with your first name?

Nsagam. How far does Kenneth live from you there in Hermantown? If its close I should stop in some time when I go through and we could have one of these discussions at the local beer joint.

Larry,

Apparently you finally have a kindred spirit rallying to your cause aside from one of your usual multiple personalities. Birds of a feather and all that...

Kevin,

Your amusing pontification on "truth" and how it applies to the original subject in question was rather lame and inept.

Afraid? Hardly. My name is no secret. Numerous members know not only my name, but know me personally (Offline). You knowing my name (William) isn't going to make us chummy pals.

Kenneth lives on Outer Mongolia (otherwise known as Wisconsin).

I'd recommend the Anchor Bar in Superior. Great selection of beers, kitschy decor and GREAT burgers and hand cut fries cooked in grease not changed since the '70s.
Ultra cheap too. Like $3.50 for a burger and a plate of fries!

"You knowing my name (William) isn't going to make us chummy pals."

Never expected that it would.

"Your amusing pontification on "truth" and how it applies to the original subject in question was rather lame and inept."

Of course that is your opinion, which, in this case, is incorrect, and rather lame and as you say inept. But you are entitled to your opinon.

"Kenneth lives on Outer Mongolia (otherwise known as Wisconsin)."

Well, maybe I am confused. I was under the impression that he lived right there in Hermantown. Or was it you that was Kenneth? Anyway. Anchor Bar? I've been. I think they call it the heart attack bar or something.

My name is Ken but I'm not Kenneth here.

Neat place the Anchor huh?

Neat place the Anchor huh?

Yea,I think its even been on Diners, Drive Inns, and Dives.

It has been.

Getting back to the pricing of things.

A guy on Ar asked about the price of his item.
The moderator said this.

"Set a price.

If it sells right away, you priced it just right.

If it doesn't sell, you priced it too high."

Of course, thats there and this is here, but basically my philosophy too, for which everybody here cried like a baby. It seems like AR has a more, shall we say, "gentile" crowd.

I say for the third or fourth time, posts criticizing the pricing of an item are exceedingly rare here.
Yours was targeted due to the extremely ambiguous description you provided.

Yes, I have read your posts for the third and fourth time and I hear what you said. But again, for the 50th time, my theory is that I, or anyone else, should not be "targeted" for price, or ambiguous description, or whatever.

As I say, a more gentile crowd would, if they were genuinely interested in the item, privately inquire of the seller, and if not genuninely interested, would just move on.

Post a stupid ad and expect that type of treatment.

Why would you not provide the requested information in the thread for all to see?

If you're going to treat the rest of us here with that amount of disdain then expect that disdain returned in spades.

A post is interpreted as a "treatment"? Again, I would think that if a person was not interested in the item it would not matter what the post said.

Now here is the difference between myself and some others. Others would say, "you stupid mother forking sombitch. Can't you figure nothing out.

Where as I would say the reason why I state this is because when one reads a large number of posts here on 25 hour and on other boards one sees that the number of "look sees" vastly outnumbers the number of posts. I would wager that the vast majority of the time its because the person read the post and decided he/she was not interested in the item, and therefore decided to move on.

For lack of a better comparison, I think that many models of new cars are far to expensive, but when I drive past a dealership I do not stop and swear at the dealer because I think his prices are too high. Or for you Nsagam, if I do not like the way the car looks, I do not stop in and yell at the dealer becasue his cars look horeshit.

MOreove, I suspect that in most people's posts, and in my case I know for sure, there is/was no "disdain" intended.

A for sale post is, by law, nothing more than an invitation to invite an offer, sometimes at a specific price, and sometimes not. It is no more complicated than that.

I would say that if a person feels they have been "treated" badly because they didn't like how a post was written they really need to learn to relax and lighten up a bit. Heart attacks are no fun. Believe me, I know!

I would say if a person feels they have been treated badly because they were asked for clarification that person needs to relax and lighten up a lot.

How does one know if he's interested in an item if there is no good description?

I also say it IS disdainful to refuse to post in a public thread the pertinent information requested.
It shows a lack of respect for the membership here.

I also say it IS disdainful to refuse to post in a public thread the pertinent information requested.
It shows a lack of respect for the membership here.


I would agree with you and end this diatribe if that were rewritten to be:

It is my opinion that it is disdainful to refuse to post in a public thread the pertinent information requested. It is also my opinion that it shows a lack of respect for the membership here.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions.

And I would then say that it is my opinion that the use of foul language on this board is disdainful because in many cases people's children read these boards. I feel that it shows a lack of respect for the membership here.

Is this clown really one of your homies, Ken?

Did someone mention beer?

I haven't the foggiest idea where this guy lives but apparently he's been to my neck of the woods before.

And good burgers!

If you get out this way we gotta do the Anchor.

"I haven't the foggiest idea where this guy lives but apparently he's been to my neck of the woods before."

I've lived in Minnesota a lot longer than you have!

That explains a lot. Jesse Ventura as guv, Al Franken, that dickhead "Prince," and that f*cking purple the Vikings wear.

Bricktop

Well, according to your logic, if those things explain me because I reside in Minnesota, then they must explain Nsaqam as well!

Now, why don't you be a good little boy and go back outside to play.

Don't know how long you've lived here and you don't know how long I have.
47 years for me.

I love MN but we did elect both Jesse and Al, Prince is a d!ckhead, and the Vikings do wear purple.
But I love the Vikes!

"you don't know how long I have."

I thought you once said your birthday was 10/13/64, and I assumed you lived here your whole life.

There, it's fixed.

Who really cares who lives where and for how long ?

Now an actual question. Is it legal to ship an AR upper (only) into a state that still maintains the Clinton era "assault rifle" ban laws (like New York).

Hey, LARRY, how's about you start telling us about your days in Vietnam bunking with Marine snipers and flying F105s?

Fixed again. Is it possible to get a question answered or are the posts just to attack somebody, nobody knows ?

No posts here aren't to attack somebody, just you Larry.

It seems like 7 or 8 people are called Larry around here. Does anybody really know who Larry is. Has anybody every met Larry? Or is Larry a figment of a few people's imagination?

What proof do you have for Larry?

29 or 30 usernames have been Larry as that's how he circumvents Rick Bin's bannings.
We know who Larry is, we know where he lives, we know what he did for a living, we know his wife's name (he actually used her name to post here) we know what he does for a living today. I've bought books from him and received his nasty emails and PM's.
I've been threatened by him although he will even admit I've never once threatened him.

He's a malignant cancer suffering from paranoid delusions and with a persecution complex.
He's a fountain of old and outdated ideas and he gets pissed if you tell him so.

He knows everything about me and my family as well.

It is clear that this thread should be shut down as it has nothing to do with providing accurate information on the original subject. PM received announces that none of the people providing direction here even hold a valid FFL.
Question will be resubmitted to site where there members holding FFLs.

Good luck finding this ghost. Looks like he is everyone and no one.

Look in a mirror Larry and you'll find this ghost.

What happened to your assertions some time back where you proclaimed that Bricktop provided correct and accurate information on all things shipping related?

Do you want me to go find them?

You are a liar of the first order, but everyone knows that already.

Hey Larry, when are you going to tell us all about your days in Vietnam when you wuz bunking with the Marine snipers and flying F105s in da [bleep]?

Man he is a tenacious little girl

Tenacious and utterly disrespectful of another man's property.

"He's a malignant cancer suffering from paranoid delusions and with a persecution complex."

Seems like that description could be used for quite a few folks around here according to the psychologist that I use to analyze some of the posts on here.

Have him take a look at the posts by Oldman1942.

Larry is in a class all by himself.

He'll rate an entire chapter in DSM IV.

so Larry is Oldman1942?

Yep.

Many many other usernames he's used have been merged into the Oldman1942 as soon as Rick Bin can determine that these names actually belong to Larry Root.

Simivalley will be merged as soon as Rick sees it.

I'm just trying to get caught up here.

Are you and Bricktop moderators or part owners of this site?
The reason I ask is because it seems like both of you know a lot about what Rick Bin is going to do. I tried to write him once and no answer. How does one get through to him?

Nope, just a member and a customer.
I have no inside knowledge of what Mr. Bin intends to do. I am observant however and I see the pattern of bannings and name mergings which have gone on before. I am also attuned to Larry's style and eccentricities enough to spot him whenever he creates a new username to circumvent Mr. Bin's wishes. I don't contact Rick with these new usernames because Rick too is attuned to Larry's style.

I don't contact Rick often but every time I have he's responded.

Okay Nsaqam

On other thread you said 'show me where somebody is posting something on somebody's post that shouldn't be there.

Maybe this is okay in your book. Maybe its not. So I am going to ask you. Is it okay to toggle your ignore button to somebody elses posts like this.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...umber/6582295/gonew/1/stock_blank#UNREAD

If it is, could you please tell me how to do it so that I can do it too.

If you have someone on ignore then what was in RL's post shows up.
If you want to read what that person wrote just click on "toggle the display of this post" and the post will show up.

All RL really did was bump your post to the top.

Okay, so I guess its alright to do that kind of stuff to other people's posts. Fine. No Problem. If I want to do that to all of his posts, and others, I just bump them to the top? Exactly how do I do that.

Never said it was OK, merely stated that the net effect was that your post was bumped to the top.

To quote someones post just click on "Quote" at the bottom of their post. You'll then be taken to the Full Screen Reply page.

Enter your comments either before the first "[guote]" or after the last "[quote]".

Done.

"Never said it was OK,"

Well, here is what I don't get. When you thought my stuff was not ok you were on me like bees on honey??????????

Even on your ridiculously non-descriptive Mauser action post I wasn't critical at all until you slammed me.

well, based on your theories I figured it was okay to slam you because I had felt that you had slammed me.

And what does that have to do with the question I just asked?

How come your not on this others guys ass for his ridiculous post?

Aw, Kevin. Are you getting picked on? Again?

"Aw, Kevin. Are you getting picked on? Again?"

Nah! Just having a little fun!

Bump

Did I just hear somewhere that Bricktop was banned from another site for some reason?

no but keep it up and you might be.........you must be a bottom feeder

For those Campfire members unsure about shipping items to Canada from the US,the basic list of items that are forbidden for export to Canada without export documentation includes firearms and firearms parts(barrels,triggers,etc.), scopes, and reloading components(bullets,brass,primers).Items that are no problem to ship include binos,spotting scopes.rangefinders and reloading tools(dies,presses,etc.)This is not a complte list of course,but it covers the basics,I don't want to see a Campfire guy get spanked just because he doesn't understand the idiotic US Export laws.I hope this helps,Cheers....Monashee

If I'm not a FFL I know I can send a rifle to a FFL or C&R holder (if the rifle is C&R obviously) but what if the person getting the rifle decides they don't want the gun during a mutually agreed upon 3 day inspection? Can that person with an FFL or C&R ship the gun back to me (again I do not have a FFL or C&R) or does he need to send it to a FFL?

If a transfer has taken place, i.e. the gun was logged into the books and a NICS check was completed, then the deal has been consummated. These are terms you'll want to spell out to your buyer.

If no actual transfer has occurred, then yes, the firearm may be returned directly to you (the non-FFL holder).

The Encore action is a multi configuration action. If it is assembled as a black powder rifle can it be shipped directly to my address?

I seem to recall the Encore is still regulated under the '68 GCA as a firearm due to its ability to be reconfigured as a cartridge firearm. It is generally recognized as a muzzleloader when in muzzleloader configuration for various states' muzzleloader or "primitive" firearms seasons. (States such as PA excepted.)

I saw a ruling from the BATFE on this once and will post it if I can locate it.

This may not be exactly what BT is referring to, but it covers the bases. From the www.atf.gov site:

Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm?
As defined in 18 U.S.C. � 921(a)(16) the term �antique firearm� means �

�
any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica �
is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term �antique firearm� shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
[b][u][u][u]ATF has previously determined that certain muzzle loading models are firearms and subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). All of these guns incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm that is capable of accepting other barrels designed to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition. Therefore, these muzzle loading models do not meet the definition of �antique firearm� as that term is defined in the above-cited � 921(a)(16) and are �firearms� as defined in 18 U.S.C. � 921(a)(3)

Furthermore, as firearms, the models described above, as well as other similar models, regardless of installed barrel type, are subject to all provisions of the GCA. Persons who purchase these firearms from licensed dealers are required to fill out ATF Form 4473 and are subject to a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check. Convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from receiving and possessing these firearms.

The following is a list of weapons that load from the muzzle and remain classified as firearms, not antiques, under the purview of the GCA since they incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm:

Savage Model 10ML (early, 1st version).
Mossberg 500 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel.
Remington 870 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel.
Mauser 98 rifle with muzzle loading barrel.
SKS rifle with muzzle loading barrel
RPB sM10 pistol with muzzle loading barrel.
H&R/New England Firearm Huntsman.
Thompson Center Encore/Contender.
Rossi .50 muzzle loading rifle.
This list is not complete and it frequently changes; therefore, there may be other muzzle loaders also classified as firearms. As noted, any muzzleloader weapon that is built on a firearm frame or receiver falls within the definition of a firearm provided in � 921(a)([[/u]/u]3).[/u][/b]

You're a prophet. What a frikken train wreck this turned into.

That is correct, but there used to be a ruling on BATFE letterhead that I wanted to post that was slightly more concise. But you have the gist.

Wouldn't the ATF consider a transfer to have taken place when the FFL holder signs for the package from the carrier? At that point it has to be logged in, and any returns would have to go to an FFL if the seller lived in a different state.

Gunsmiths may return repaired firearms to their non-licensee owners and owners may ship their personal firearms to themselves at a different address, but I didn't think anybody else was allowed to ship to a non-licensee.

Wrong.

Interesting. Which part is wrong? Does the FFL not have to log it in? Or is a FFL allowed to ship a firearm back to it's original owner? Maybe only within a certain time period? Or something else?

ATF are dicks about possession and transfers normally.

As a C&R holder it is something that affects me since I occasionally have non-licensees in other states ship to me.

How about you pose your questions one at a time instead of this f*cking snowjob bullshit? I just now counted five in your most recent post; I'll assume it's you just behaving like your normal [bleep] self.

Let me clue you in on a little something: the '68 GCA sets the minimum standards for interstate commerce in firearms. There's absolutely nothing in there specifying any time period under which a firearm must be logged upon receipt from a transit agent. Nothing at all. That's you trying to read some bullshit that's not there.

A federal firearms license or a curios and relics license allows the licensee to engage in the interstate commerce of firearms. There's nothing whatsoever designating contractual terms within the '68 GCA, '34 NFA or '86 FOPA. Nothing. Obviously terms of a potential transfer must be met and agreed to by both parties before that can be consummated. Savvy? If the buyer doesn't make satisfactory payment, the seller is not obligated to complete the sale. Likewise, if a seller doesn't make satisfactory delivery of the agreed upon item or items, the buyer isn't obligated to complete the transaction.

The BATFE's legal department is more than happy to detail all of this in a legally-binding determination on official BATFE letterhead in writing if you also make a request in writing.

Somehow I don't think anyone is shipping your deadbeat ass much of anything. You need money to buy things and I sure as hell wouldn't consider any charity for you.

Actually, I meant those 5 questions as a list of "which one is wrong", not 5 different questions. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to derail the thread.


I was under the impression that there's actually TWO transfers taking place. The first is from the seller to the FFL, because the FFL is legally allowed to receive firearms via interstate shipping. The second is from the FFL to the local buyer. By federal regulations (27 C.F.R. � 478.125), FFL's have to record acquisitions by the end of the next business day - which I'm stating for clarity since I know you're aware of it.


Let's put it this way, which I think removes all extraneous questions. A non-licensee seller sends a firearm to an FFL in another state to transfer to a non-licensee, and that FFL receives it and logs it into his record book. The receiving FFL calls the buyer the next day and finds out the buyer just got arrested on a felony charge. Obviously the FFL can't transfer it to him.

Can the FFL ship it straight back to the seller's home address?

My thought was that he couldn't since I believe a transfer has already taken place from the seller to the FFL.

That's exactly what you're trying to do.


Are you f*cking serious? This is the kind of bullshit you're wasting everyone's time asking?

There are not "TWO transfers taking place," that's YOU, YET AGAIN TRYING TO READ SOMETHING THAT ISN'T THERE. For the sake of entertaining your horseshit "questions" and VERY obvious attempt at derailing this thread, the disposition of the firearm in your little "scenario" would be returned to owner, just as with a firearm that was repaired or customized by a gunsmith. The FFL holder is the transferor, not transferee. There is NOTHING within the '68 GCA that states otherwise.

Again I had to go find the answer myself since you have no clue about actual federal laws or regulations which FFL's have to abide by.

There was a change in the law in 1986 by the Firearms Owner Protection Act which switched the verbiage of shipping firearms from saying only for the purpose of repair or customizing to allowing any firearm to be shipped to it's owner. According to the ORIGINAL GUN CONTROL ACT what I was asking about was illegal. You clueless moron.



The exact statute allowing the return of a firearm to it's owner is 18 U. S. C. 922(a(2)(A).


God save us from internet experts, and God help the poor guys who think you really know anything about what you scream about. Even when you're right, you're clueless.

No, you didn't post a f*cking "right answer," you posted what you want to believe. No legal determinations, no common sense, no nothing. You chose to respond to a question and discussion that occurred over a month ago for no other reason than to get some attention. You've managed to rack up an astounding 19K+ posts in the seven or so years you've been registered here. That says you have a lot of time on your hands, you like to see your words, and you like to feel important. A constant theme I've seen is you post multiple questions and multiple comments and seem to have an expectation of a response that meets whatever personal satisfaction you seek. Anything less and the respondent is "clueless."

As stated previously, the '68 GCA sets minimum standards for interstate firearms commerce. There's not a single thing stating a firearm is prohibited from being returned to the original owner in the event the intended buyer cannot or does not complete the transaction. That's your ignorant f*cking ass trying to create smoke where there's no fire. You are more than welcome to seek a written determination from the BATFE's legal department if you disagree, but I suspect you won't because they won't give you the answer you want nor will they provide you the instant, public gratification you crave.

I came here with an honest question about whether I, as a C&R holder, could ship a firearm back to the owner or if I had to ship to an FFL in his state if I returned a firearm. I was hoping you could provide a reasonably complete answer because part of my confusion is from an email exchange I had with ATF. You didn't provide any reasonable answer beyond your normal screaming, cursing and providing nonsensical and vague answers even when I tried to keep a civil exchange going. Unfortunately having an anonymous internet Wikipedia expert googler named Bricktop as a source of information isn't going to work as an affirmative defense if I follow some of your nonsense.

Why is it that after YEARS of screaming at people who just want reliable answers that you are still unable to cite federal statutes or regulations? I mean come on.. You do know that the GCA was used to create those statutes, right? And then there has been 44 years of other congressional bills and ATF regulations (some flatly illegal and totally unfounded in the GCA or other bills) which have changed the verbiage and intent - like the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act?. You do know that when people go to court it's for a violation of those statutes and NOT a violation of the 1968 GCA, right?

Oh, sorry.. here I am burying you in multiple questions again. Don't stress though, I don't expect any answer except for the normal cursing and screaming.


One another thing you need to understand as you trick the unknowing into following your advice.

There is no such thing as a legally binding statement from the ATF. You need to QUIT SAYING THAT. If you get a written statement from them, it can be reversed at their will and they will not tell you. An email can be considered as guidance, but the best that an email from them will be is as an avenue of defense in court if they press charges - it may or may not keep them from pressing charges. Of course while you're in court trying to stay out of jail or keep your FFL you're paying some lawyer your life savings to do so. The ATF have a long history of reversing decisions or giving out contradictory decisions to people who ask for a determination.

Have a good day.

Ah yes, we all get treated to another of your self-aggrandizingly pointless rants. This affirms every comment I've made regarding your participation in this thread. You're not seeking any information whatsoever; there's not a thing anyone can possibly tell you, because in your mind you know everything there is to possibly know.

Quite a few federal regulations were posted here, you don't want to read them or don't want to acknowledge them because there's no way they could possibly match up your own thoughts.

You won't seek a written determination for the reasons stated previously; you won't get the answer you want and it won't be public and instantaneous.

You keep mentioning and alluding to "court cases" that support your statements. Please cite these "court cases."

Ok maybe I am blind or just can't read after wading through 17 pages of bickering back and forth.My question is.... Can't a long gun be shipped in the same state to a buyer from the seller without going through an FFL or does it have to go to an FFL even in same state?

That depends on the state... Federal laws do not control that at all. In CA the answer is no; In AK and most of the free world the answer is yes.

The crux of this information is interstate shipping. However, if a state permits private, "FTF" sales, then yes, you most certainly may ship a firearm directly to that person.

Haha

Where can i read about shipping my revolver to myself from Washington to Arizona where i am a resident(a handgun, specifically), so i don't start something here?

"� 926A Interstate transportation of firearms.

Notwithstanding any other provisions of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver�s compartment, the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console."

"� 478.38 Transportation of firearms.

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where such person may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where such person may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console."

Thank you for that, but i should have been more clear so i could better understand your answer. I want to ship a handgun to myself, not transport it in a vehicle. i'm wondering if shipping a handgun to myself requires anything other than what shipping a longgun to myself requires...besides using a contract carrier.

• Shipping is a lawful means of transport.
• Nothing additional is required to ship to yourself, i.e. "transport" a handgun vice a long gun, save the services of a contract carrier.
• Do not make this complicated.

Thank you.

Does this just apply to Canada, or is it all US exports? For instance, would shipping a butt plate, barrel band or sling swivel to Europe be in violation?

Quick question Bricktop--

I mucked my way thru this thing twice, and I like the way you say, "simplified, it means this...".

Is there a regulation, specifically, that allows a [non-licensee] to ship a long gun to an FFL holder? I know there is, I just can't determine which one it is.

This is in reference to an argument I had at the post office today. It is their stance that the [rifle or shotgun] that I want to ship has to go thru, or I (the shipper has to have) an FFL.

Please quote the specific reg pertaining to USPS so I can print it and take it to the post office. Thanks BT!

Every single one is stated in my opening post on the first page along with citations from the '68 GCA and Domestic Mail Manual. They simply state that an interstate shipment of a firearm must be received by a valid federal firearms licensee.

Got it-thanks. I already already copied and pasted all that to print out.

I was just wondering if I had missed something specifically, wading thru that legal mumbo jumbo. Thanks for taking the time to answer me, and post this thread.

Third times a charm. This is it...


� 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm."

Simply stated, it says this:

"It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered...to persons other than...licensed dealers...any package...in which there is any firearm...without written notice to the carrier that such firearm...is being...shipped..."



The United States Postal Service (USPS) will accept long guns from unlicensed persons and handguns from federal firearms licensees:

"11.3 Rifles and Shotguns

Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e

11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice."


Thanks again Bricktop.

Maybe someone can help me with this face to face question.


Today, my brother attempted to sell an AR-15 to another person face to face. They went to our local hardware store that handles FFLs and is also a gun shop. When the dealer did the background check on the party interested in purchasing the AR, it showed there was a protection order from his wife from a number of years ago so he was denied. The dealer told my brother he now couldn't sell the rifle to this individual because he was aware of this information and that he could be culpable in some capacity if a crime was committed by this individual with this weapon in the future. What got me was the dealer told my brother that as a seller you must do your due diligence and make a reasonable effort to make sure whoever is buying a weapon from you has no priors or anything that would prevent them from owning a firearm. I've never heard of anything like that in Pa before for private sales.


My question is:


As a private citizen selling to another private citizen, is there anything I MUST DO when selling a weapon to make sure a buyer is capable of purchasing firearms? In other words, is the onus on me to make a reasonable effort to determine if a buyer would pass a background check?

There is no such federal requirement nor do most states have a requirement to do so.

If a seller wants to go beyond the minimum requirements he may, but he is under no obligation to do so.

Thanks Bricktop, much appreciated.

Bricktop,

Can you give the lowdown on shipping reloading components. My local PO wouldn't ship component bullets (not ammunition) today. Finally convinced them, but would have been a lot easier had I known the correct reg to cite. I wouldn't have even disclosed, except they saw the word "bullets" on one of the boxes as we were putting them in a flat rate box.

John

Component bullets and brass are not classified as flammable, explosive or "inert explosives" and are not controlled items. There won't be any postal regulations regarding them. They may as well be rocks.

As I stated in our PM discussion, you can't tip your hand when you're shipping things because you invite some self-important assh*le to meddle in your business when you do.

Thats worth threepeatin...
and has to do with more than just firearms.

Excellent thread. Bricktop...your knowledge in this area is respected.

Although it may have been expressly covered somewhere in all these posts,I'll still ask a direct question regarding my May plane travel from Florida to Va.

On my dad's death last year, I have been given his Remington Rand manufactured service 45. It is in it's original condition. I also have my Beretta 380 that I had let my father use and now intend to bring it back with me, as well. I do not have ownership papers for any of these two handguns.

May I assume I can simply lock these two pistols into cases,put them in my check-in and bring them back to Virginia with me on this flight or is it still advisable to ship FFL to FFL?

Thanks in advance.

Got my answer. Disregard.

I recently sold a handgun via Gunbroker. Following the rules, I naturally shipped it via FedEx to the purchaser's local FFL dealer.

But the dealer won't give the guy the gun. The dealer is demanding that I take it back and send it all over again, shipping it through an FFL dealer on my end.

I have read the ATF site's information which says:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-carrier


Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


So what is it with this dealer? Can anyone explain his policy?

Some dealers will only accept from another FFL dealer, don't know why, but I guess its their choice. Most dealers including myself, would accept from an individual with just a copy of their drivers license.

JD,

Some licensed dealers fear or feel threatened by non FFL transactions. As a kneejerk reaction to that they require an FFL at both ends of any deal. These 'dealers' are not our freinds or yours. I steer cleer of them when I find out who they are, and I tell them WHY I am steering clear.

some dealers are more confused about the law as buyers/sellers. and there is apparently nothing that compels them to do a transfer if they don't want to, or at least they can make up any chickensh*t policy they want to in order to keep you from using them.

How about wanting to buy a rifle from a seller in Canada and shipping it to my FFL in the U.S.? I'm afraid as much as I want the rifle, it may be too much hassle and paperwork to be worth it....

Take a little time and read the "private firearm for sale" ads on Calguns. Of all the people in the US they seem to be the ones that are least likely to ship. It's really too bad, there are a lot of cool guns that direction but you won't get them to ship them. I purchased one, but only when he couldn't get anyone else to pay what he wanted. Not cutting anyone down from California. It just seems to be a mind set that most people have that live there. I'm guessing two people out of ten will ship a firearm. I think it's misunderstood how painless it is.